Sunday Code Writing

[Almas]

Okay, on Sunday I'll have some free time, so I'd like to whip up a code set to use with the more updated values. I'd appreciate all of y'alls input, of course.

Things that need to be considered (and can be modified at this point in time), along with my opinion:

Shield Modifications (Power Shield Frames, Damage Received, Regen Rate) I like the regen rate reduced to 0.5, haven't tinkered with others
Hitstun I suppose about 0.48 is appropriate
Throw Speed I guess maybe 1.5x speed?
Jump Speed (this is the jump animation, not the jump itself) Same again
Buffering 1 frame
Decay No stale, but with a fresh bonus
Hitlag Half+2 - low hitlag moves retain their normal amount, but high moves are significantly affected
Shieldstun 11/22/5 seems to work dandy, I guess
Reversed Stages Pictochat, Warioware, Pkmn2, Green Hill Zone, Pirate Ship
Gravity ~1.05 up, 1.2 down

I think we can all agree on halved aerial lag, triple jump glitch fixed, Dash Dancing and Cancelling, No Autosweetspot and Tripping.

We also have some character specifics available now. I can modify Jump/Second Jump Height (stored together, so it has to be both or neither), Short Hop Height, Fast Fall Speed, Downwards Gravity, Dash Speed, Ledgehop Height character specific. I'd prefer these in the form:
Everyone:
Exceptions+value for each of them:

I can also do blanket changes to characters, modifying Damage Taken, Damage Dealt, Knockback Taken, Knockback Dealt and Overall Gravity. Modifying damage has a slight impact on knockback (I think this is because knockback is decided based on the % of the target after the damage is dealt). This glitches out a little in training mode (if YOU are X, the dummy gets the bonuses) - I don't suppose someone can point me at a memory location which will tell you if you are in a Brawl or in some other form of game?.

I realise there'll be some differences of opinion, so I'm probably going to end up going with the most conservative set of final results possible, and we can tweak from there. I guess of primary interest for balancing purposes right now are D³, Bowser, Pokémon Trainer (in particular, which codes to use) and Link. More options will become available if and when move modification does, though.

EDIT: I realise it's a short timeframe - but I won't be available again until atleast halfway through the next week, and everyone seems bewildered by the new stuff so I figured a quick release would get people satisfied.

 

[MookieRah]

Someone needs to post the codes specific to player 1, player 2, and etc. I have no idea where those codes are and they would make testing easy.

Shorthop Height:
I think most characters are just fine at .9 unless otherwise specified. I think that Samus and Lucario need something as low as .7 from what I hear. Lots of people have presented charts of info about this. I'll dig it up later.

Jump/Second Jump Height:
I think this shouldn't be tampered with except for characters using grav. I am thinking we should try and match up and down grav for characters, but I am not sure how that would work out. In any case, we should only use this to restore jump height loss due to upgrav.

Gravity:
Most characters are fine on 1.2, but we only went that high with down grav due to the lack of up grav. I think we should use a base of 1.1 and match up and down grav, cause a lot of characters capable of using up grav due to jump height alteration and upB's that aren't affected. They would seem faster without a lot of negatives from dealing with the extra weight. The only characters that I would make their gravity normal would be Ivysaur, Bowser, D3. This is all for survivability concerns. I also think that we shouldn't speed characters to all be fast fallers "just because" I think we need to make appropriate changes that fit the characters.

I'm going to designate characters as such:

Floaty - 1.1 up/down
Semi Floaty - 1.125 up/down
Normal - 1.15 up/down
Fast faller - 1.175 up/down

Here is a quick list off the top of my head:

Mario - 1.15 up /down
Luigi - 1.1 up /down
Peach - 1.125 up/down
Bowser - No change
DK - 1.1 up/down (He needs some floatyness for combo protection.)
Diddy - 1.15 up/down
Yoshi - 1.15 up/down
Wario - 1.1 up/down or No change (Doesn't floatyness help him? I would think so.)
Link - 0 up 1.25 down (up grav ***** him so sticking to 1.25 down grav is the best option)
Zelda - 1.125 up/down
Shiek - 1.125 up/down
Ganon - 0 up 1.25 down (See Link)
Toon Link - 1.125 up/down
Samus - 1.1 up/down
Pit - 1.15 up/down
Ice Climbers - 1.15 up/down
ROB - 1.15 up/down
Kirby - 1.1 up/down
Meta - 1.1 up/down
Dedede - No change
Olimar - 1.125 up/down or 1.15 up/down (Not sure on this one.)
Fox - 1.175 up/down
Falco - 1.175 up/down
Wolf - 1.175 up/down
Captain Falcon - 1.175 up/down
Pika - 1.15 up/down
RAWRizard - 1.1 up/down (He needs to stay floaty cause he's so huge. It helps surviving.)
Squirtle - 1.15 up/down
Ivysaur - No change
Lucario - 1.125 up/down
Jiggs - 1.1 up/down or No change (See Wario.)
Marth - 1.125 up/down (He was semi-floaty in melee.)
Ike - 1.175 up/down (SHFFL MADNESS!)
Ness - 1.125 up/down
Lucas - 1.125 up/down
G&W - 1.125 up/down
Snake - 1.175 up/down (Him and Ike seem to fit the "fast fall heavy" category IMO.)
Sonic - 0 up 1.25 down (See Link)

Final Tally
No Changes - 3-5
Just 1.25 down - 3
Floaty/1.1 up/down - 5-7
Semi Floaty/1.125 up/down - 9-10
Normal/1.15 up/down - 8-9
Fast Faller/1.2 up/down 6

So either make the base line be Normal, 1.15 up/down (or Semi-float if people agree with them being slightly floatier) and adjust everyone else.

As far as ledge hop height goes, I know a few that could use a lil more. Ganon comes to mind. I'm sure there are others.

I need feedback on my list guys. Also, we need to test some short hop heights! Keep in mind that we will try to match normal height with up grav changes, so lets find heights that allow one to do all their junt but doesn't screw them!

[EDIT]
I removed the few odd balls and merged semi-fast fall fast fall. I think 1.2 up/down was too much anyways, and this should help with code and makes for one less category.

 

[MookieRah]

In case I need to make even fewer categories, here is another more simple list.

Floaty - 1.1 up/down
Normal - 1.2 up/down
Fast faller - 1.3 up/down

Here is a quick list off the top of my head:

Mario - Normal
Luigi - Floaty
Peach - Floaty
Bowser - No change
DK - Floaty (He needs some floatyness for combo protection.)
Diddy - Normal
Yoshi - Normal
Wario - No change or Floaty
Link - 0 up 1.25 down (up grav ***** him so sticking to 1.25 down grav is the best option)
Zelda - Floaty
Shiek - Normal
Ganon - 0 up 1.25 down (See Link)
Toon Link - Floaty
Samus - Floaty
ZSS - Normal
Pit - Normal
Ice Climbers - Normal
ROB - Normal
Kirby - Floaty
Meta - Floaty
Dedede - No change
Olimar - Normal
Fox - Fast
Falco - Fast
Wolf - Fast
Captain Falcon - Fast
Pika - Normal
RAWRizard - Floaty (He needs to stay floaty cause he's so huge. It helps surviving.)
Squirtle - Normal
Ivysaur - No change
Lucario - Floaty
Jiggs - No change or Floaty (See Wario.)
Marth - Floaty (He was semi-floaty in melee.)
Ike - Fast (SHFFL MADNESS!)
Ness - Normal
Lucas - Normal
G&W - Floaty
Snake - Fast (Him and Ike seem to fit the "fast fall heavy" category IMO.)
Sonic - 0 up 1.25 down (See Link)

Final Tally
No Changes - 3-5
Just 1.25 down - 3
Floaty/1.1 up/down - 11-9
Normal/1.135 up/down - 13
Fast Faller/1.17 up/down 6

Floaty Chars: Fast fall set to 1.35
Luigi - .95
Wario - 1
Toon Link - .95
Samus - .85
RAWRizard - 1.1

G&W 1.05

Normal Chars: Fast fall set to 1.25
Mario- 1.1425 (maybe more)
Diddy- 1
Yoshi- 1.1
Shiek- 1.1
ZSS - 1
Pit - 1.1
Ice Climbers - 1.1
ROB - 1.1
Olimar - 1.1
Pika - 1.1425 (allows for double uair)
Squirtle - 1.1425 (allows for double uair)
Marth - 1.1425 (allows for full double fairs)
Ness - 1.1
Lucas - 1.1425
Zelda - 1
Peach - 1
Lucario - 1.1425
Ike - 1.1
Snake - 1.11425

Fast Chars Fast fall set to 1.15
Fox - 1.15
Falco - 1.1
Wolf - 1.1
Captain Falcon - 1.15

vBrawl Fast fall set to 1.4
Jiggs - 1
Bowser - .9
D3 - 1
DK - 1
Meta - 1
Kirby - 1

Odd Balls 1.25 down grav Fast fall set to 1.15
Ganon 1.1
Link .9
Sonic .9

 

[Almas]

That should be fine to do, but bear in mind that any deviation from the most common value will take 1-2 lines each. I can see it adding up quickly.


EDIT: Just thought I'd ask - which codes exactly are functioning perfectly ATM, spunit?

I'll make two versions if possible, both with and without HAD.

 

[shanus]

In case I need to make even fewer categories, here is another more simple list.

Floaty - 1.1 up/down
Normal - 1.135 up/down
Fast faller - 1.17 up/down

Here is a quick list off the top of my head:

Mario - Normal
Luigi - Floaty
Peach - Floaty
Bowser - No change
DK - Floaty (He needs some floatyness for combo protection.)
Diddy - Normal
Yoshi - Normal
Wario - No change
Link - 1.25 down
Zelda - Floaty
Shiek - Normal
Ganon - 1.25 down
Toon Link - Floaty
Samus - Floaty
Pit - Normal
Ice Climbers - Normal
ROB - Normal
Kirby - Floaty
Meta - Floaty
Dedede - No change
Olimar - Normal (He might need to be Fast to maintain his combo presence from vB)
Fox - Fast
Falco - Fast
Wolf - Fast
Captain Falcon - Fast
Pika - Normal
RAWRizard - Floaty (He needs to stay floaty cause he's so huge. It helps surviving.)
Squirtle - Normal
Ivysaur - No change
Lucario - Floaty
Jiggs - No change
Marth - Floaty
Ike - Fast )
Ness - Normal
Lucas - Normal
G&W - Floaty
Snake - Fast (Him and Ike seem to fit the "fast fall heavy" category IMO.)
Sonic - 0 up 1.25 down

I made a few edits. Really like the list though Mookie. Almas can you toss that codeset up soon with and without HAD enabled, so many new codes came out last night I have ZERO idea where to start with them.


Also, I know a lot of people look at shield damage / shield decay stuff, which I am totally against. I think its unnecessary with the shieldstun we have put into place.

 

[MookieRah]

Spunit's code that had the initial jump frames and the throw speed on it didn't work very well. The aerial lag reduction, initial jump, an the throw speed, and I think the dash speed were about the only things that worked right.

It should be noted that his aerial lag reduction code caused characters to slide a bit upon landing. I found this useful and neat, but other may hate it. In any case, if we can get all of that code to work even if people dislike the new ALR it would be so much more code efficient to use it.

 

[MookieRah]

Here is my short hop list. I'm unsure as to whether or not Pit and Zelda should be .85, so for the time being I'm going to put them at .9 to be safe. I'm also not sure about ZSS at .8, but she needs to be thoroughly tested at this value, and I don't feel that it makes her worse and is a compromise between lots of people on the Brawl+ forum and The Cape, so I think leaving her there for the first version of the code is a good thing. Anyways, here is the list:

Here is my new list:

Mario .9 (He can double uair with ease, and with a lil practice you can uair > bair.)
Luigi .9 (He jumps high, but his hitboxes hit really low. No good resaon to go lower than .9)
Peach .9 (Her bair can hit Jiggs shortly after the apex. No need to go lower)
Bowser .9 (At FF 1.15 he shffls nicely. Great height for all his moves)
DK 1 (I think double bair is important. We can adjust his FF so he can shffl uairs better.)
Diddy .9 (He can still double bair, bair > uair, and other stuff. I think this is good.)
Yoshi .9? (He seems fine at .9, but I don't know Yoshi for ****.)
Wario .9? (This feels alright, but I don't know enough about him to really say.)
Link .9 (This feels good. He shffls nicely.)
Sheik .9 (I suck with Sheik. I think unchanged "felt" better, but I don't know **** about her.)
Zelda .9 (She might be better at .85, but lets play it safe at .9)
Ganon 1 (Increase jump height to fix thunderstomp, not his short hop. Better recovery too.)
TL .9 (He can still double biar. Nair worked better at this height too. Good stuff.)
Samus .8 (Compromise with Cape, and after testing I liked it better than lower values.)
ZSS .8 (Compromise with Cape)
Pit .9 (I think he might work at .85, but I don't feel certain enough to submit that value.)
ICs .9 (OMG, with initial jump frames reduce you can fair while Nana fsmashes!)*
ROB .9 (Perfect height. Double fairs with ease, doesn't really benefit to be any shorter.)
Kirby 1 (Multi jumpers have pretty optimized jump heights as is.)
Meta 1 (See Kirby)
D3 1 (He can't WOP without his full jump and floatyness. This needs to be preserved.)
Olimar .9 (His fair hits low enough and there isn't a real need to go lower IMO.)
Fox .9 (I tested it and .85 wasn't tall enough. .9 feels a lil too much, but gravity will fix that.)
Falco .85 (This seemed to be nice, and with fast falling gravity i bet he could still double laser.)
Wolf .9 (.85 was just too short.)
CF .9 (I found no real problems with his normal short hop, but this isn't bad I guess.)
Pika .9 (This seems like a great height to me.)
Char 1 (.95 didn't seem much different, so why bother? Just FF for the bair, it's not hard.)
Ivysaur 1 (.See Char.)
Squirtle .9 (Seems pretty perfect, hits chest/head height on most chars.)
Lucario 1 (See Char)
Jiggs 1 (See Kirby)
Marth .9 (Double fairs work great. No change needed.)
Ike 1 (.9 seemed doable but a little low, with gravity changes it probably is better for 1.)
Ness .9 (I think this is better than 1 after more testing.)
Lucas 1 (Lucas's jumps are just nice out of the box.)
G&W 1 (See Char)
Snake 1 (See Lucas)
Sonic .9 (Fair autocancels quite nicely, this works pretty swell.)

Characters in bold should probably be tested by players who main said character.

 

[Almas]

With what gravity values attached to them?

 

[MookieRah]

With the ones I originally posted. If up grav and down grav are equal then what I tested them with (down grav 1.25) would be sort of an inbetween from Floaty 1.1 up/down and normal 1.135 up/down. I say that cause if you add the increases 1.1 up/down should be the same time in the air as 1.2 down, and 1.135 up/down should be the same as 1.27 down. For the fast fallers, since they are moving faster then I made sure that they had extra breathing room for all their stuff. It should work out well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really like Mookie's idea, although I'd personally make Sonic 0 up/ 1.35 down. After trying it out for a while, I really like the way Sonic plays, and how he's able to basically reach the ground a little faster when comboing (which is really important for Sonic). It'll make him a little more susceptible to being combo'd, but that's fine.

I don't know, I just think that he should fall a little faster than Link and Snake, who are more "tankish" IMO. I mean, they're more like semi-tanks, but Sonic seems more like a speedy powerhouse, and the faster falling helps him out with that.

If you're really tight on code space, I'd move Snake and Ike to the "normal" category (you can just fast fall if you're really adamant about SHFFLing faster).

On "normal" gravity, Ike works fine with 0.9 SH (which saves you code space in both sections).

Snake still prefers 1 SH. On "normal" gravity he can actually get all 4 hits of dair in one SH.

Is there a way to edit full hop heights? Full hops seem so short because of the up grav.

 

[Almas]

Yeah. For a sneak peak, put 2F40 instead of 2F5C in the sh/d/ff code, then replace the fastfall value. It also affects second jumps, but not for bubble characters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I liked it on Ike, but on Snake it just feels weird (his second jump is bigger than his full hop).

How difficult is it to make that change character specific?

 

[Almas]

Very easy

10chars

 

[MookieRah]

OK guys, I had to completely revamp my list because even with the increase jump height code the short hops would be independent. This meant that I actually had to test them in the gravity that I had them set for. Because of that, I also got some much needed testing on the gravities, and boy did they change. I'm going to post the information twice, one for short hops, and the other for gravity. That way Almas can easily interpret the data.

 

[MookieRah]

Floaty 1.1 up/down grav
Normal 1.2 up/down grav
Fast Fall 1.3 up/down grav

Floaty Chars: Fast fall set to 1.35
Luigi - .95
Wario - 1
Toon Link - .95
Samus - .85
RAWRizard - 1.1
G&W 1.05

Normal Chars: Fast fall set to 1.25
Mario- 1.1425
Diddy- 1
Yoshi- 1.1
Shiek- 1.1
ZSS - 1
Pit - 1.1
Ice Climbers - 1.1
ROB - 1.1
Olimar - 1.1
Pika - 1.1425 (allows for double uair)
Squirtle - 1.1425 (allows for double uair)
Marth - 1.1425 (allows for full double fairs)
Ness - 1.1
Lucas - 1.1425
Zelda - 1
Peach - 1
Lucario - 1.1425
Ike - 1.1
Snake - 1.11425

Fast Chars Fast fall set to 1.15
Fox - 1.15
Falco - 1.1
Wolf - 1.1
Captain Falcon - 1.15

vBrawl Fast fall set to 1.4
Jiggs - 1
Bowser - .9
D3 - 1
DK - 1
Meta - 1
Kirby - 1

Odd Balls 1.3 down grav Fast fall set to 1.15
Ganon 1.1
Link .9
Sonic .9

 

[MookieRah]

Short hop heights.

Less than 1
Samus - .85
Bowser - .9
Link .9
Sonic .9
Luigi - .95

1.0
Diddy- 1
Wario - 1
ZSS - 1
Zelda - 1
Peach - 1
Jiggs - 1
D3 - 1
DK - 1
Meta - 1
Kirby - 1
Falco - 1

1.1
RAWRizard - 1.1
Yoshi- 1.1
Shiek- 1.1
Pit - 1.1
Ice Climbers - 1.1
ROB - 1.1
Olimar - 1.1
Ness - 1.1
Lucas - 1.1
Ike - 1.1
Fox - 1.1
Wolf - 1.1
Ganon 1.1
Pika - 1.1
Squirtle - 1.1

Greater than 1.1
Mario- 1.115
Marth - 1.115
Captain Falcon - 1.13
Lucario - 1.115
Snake - 1.115

Now I have to get the full jump heights right.

 

[shanus]

Nice lists Mookie. How did you determine what was right though? Also, why did you raise olimars short hop height, if anything, he benefits more from a shorter SH? I also thought we were reducing ZSS SH according to a couple ZSS players?

Also, falcon higher than 1.1? I just wondering if you can explain why you feel these values are right before I go accepting them lol.


EDIT: Reread your posts and organization makes more sense now. Still wondering how you determined what was the right fit though? Were you balancing certain groups based on abilities to double fair, thunderstomp, etc? Or did you just go by what felt like floaty vs heavy? It's hard for me to give much inputs here as I can't really test the changes without seeing them all at once

 

[Deleted member]

Short hop heights.

Less than 1
Samus - .85
Bowser - .9
Link .9
Sonic .9
Luigi - .95
Luigi - .95

1.0
Diddy- 1
Wario - 1
ZSS - 1
Zelda - 1
Peach - 1
Jiggs - 1
D3 - 1
DK - 1
Meta - 1
Kirby - 1

1.1
RAWRizard - 1.1
Yoshi- 1.1
Shiek- 1.1
Pit - 1.1
Ice Climbers - 1.1
ROB - 1.1
Olimar - 1.1
Ness - 1.1
Ike - 1.1
Falco - 1.1
Wolf - 1.1
Ganon 1.1

Greater than 1.1
Mario- 1.1425
Pika - 1.1425
Squirtle - 1.1425
Marth - 1.1425
Captain Falcon - 1.1425

Now I have to get the jump heights right.

nice list, but either I got blind or lucario isn't on it. he has like the highest SH in the game and I heard lots of complains about it and as a lucario main I can say something like 0.75-0.8 would suit him.

 

[MookieRah]

Also, why did you raise olimars short hop height, if anything, he benefits more from a shorter SH?

Keep in mind on the short hop heights that most characters are in the normal grav bracket which gives them 1.2 up gravity which shortens their short hops. That's why a lot of characters have their short hops increased.

nice list, but either I got blind or lucario isn't on it.

My bad, I had him in the other list though. I also updated the "greater than 1.1 category" as I couldn't really salvage Pika's and Squirtles double uairs. I lowered Marth to 1.115 because 1.1425 was way too much, which was pretty much his normal short hop height.

as a lucario main I can say something like 0.75-0.8 would suit him.

I disagree with making him .8. Doing that kills his double fair. It was excellent before, as if the first hit connects it goes straight into the next. At .8 you can only fair > nair, which isn't nearly as good, and his shffling isn't as good as the double fair. The way I have him set up is that now he has his double fair, he lands with the last part of the attack out, but he is much, much faster with his jumps due to 1.2 u/d grav. I think you guys will like it.

 

[shanus]

Keep in mind on the short hop heights that most characters are in the normal grav bracket which gives them 1.2 up gravity which shortens their short hops. That's why a lot of characters have their short hops increased.

My bad, I had him in the other list though. I also updated the "greater than 1.1 category" as I couldn't really salvage Pika's and Squirtles double uairs. I lowered Marth to 1.13 because 1.1425 was too much, which was pretty much his normal short hop height.

I disagree with making him .8. Doing that kills his double fair. It was excellent before, as if the first hit connects it goes straight into the next. At .8 you can only fair > nair, which isn't nearly as good, and his shffling isn't as good as the double fair. The way I have him set up is that now he has his double fair, he lands with the last part of the attack out, but he is much, much faster with his jumps due to 1.2 u/d grav. I think you guys will like it.

Alright sounds good, I didnt see the upgrav modifications in your post before, I'm kind of speed reading as I have like 20392039 people visiting this weekend for a friends 21st, so I havent been as careful as usual.

 

[MookieRah]

Also, I'm still tweaking things a bit. The 1.1425 category was a guestimation, I now either knocked it down to 1.115 or moved them to the 1.1 category. Another thing to keep in mind, is that while I am being conservative with jump heights, characters are faster with equal up and down gravs, so they can still function the way you guys wanted them to at a higher height because of the speed increase.

This is basically my criteria for it:
Preserve character specific traits.
Make sure short hops can still hit characters on most platforms.
Try to adjust short hops so that the hitboxes of their moves can hit grounded opponents easily.

MOST people that are discussing short hop heights are only looking at it from a shffl point of view. I think this is a very bad way to look at it. Sure, some chars can do cool things at .8, but what about when they are higher than your measly 1 foot short hop? Seriously, if I could jump higher than a character short hopping IRL then that isn't a smash short hop...

 

[The Cape]

Should we have Character Specific threads and/or a code testing thread?

 

[shanus]

Should we have Character Specific threads and/or a code testing thread?

I was thinking that but I didn't know if that would turn into a mess. I was more thinking we could maybe assign characters in groups, i.e. someone use the current global values for the floaty characters and report on that, someone else for the FF chars, etc, until the character specific codes come out.

Individual threads for each character seems a bit premature though.

 

[MookieRah]

The problem is that it's hard to test these values until we get the full hop jump increase code. For some reason it isn't working, and Almas and I have been trying to figure that out for the past two days. We need to increase the jump heights to compensate for the loss due to gravity. Ike is a "normal" weight, so that means 1.2 up/down grav, but cause of the up grav he can't jump up to the top platform of battlefield. I'm thinking a full hop increase by 10-20% would fix that, and we could just buff each category across the board. More than likely a small difference in their full hop won't matter too much, so a more generalized buff to cover for the loss is fine IMO.

 

[leafgreen386]

Yay, I have access to this forum now!

Remember that full jump and double jump are tied together, mookie. We might need to be careful about how we approach that one lest we accidentally give a character a very awkward double jump (or full jump if we're adjusting their double jump... like ganon).

I'm liking most of your values, but...

Odd Balls 1.3 down grav Fast fall set to 1.15
Ganon 1.1
Link .9
Sonic .9

Why did you increase ganon's sh height? I've never had any problem with his current height, and making it higher would just make it harder to shffl bairs on people. His aerials hit through the stage 1 platforms on battlefield (his dair even hits them), and as long as he doesn't have any up grav applied to him, he can still thunderstorm just fine. So... why do you want to increase his sh height?

edit: Also, I'm not sure if the grav is right for him or link, as well. A sonic main says that it benefits sonic, but link could probably stand to use a lower grav value (just because he's fat in melee didn't mean he fell fox fast, and you're making him fall fox fast with this), and I know ganon could stand to use a smaller grav value (again, just because ganon was fat in melee didn't mean he fell fox fast). I would go no higher than 1.2 for ganon's down grav.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why did you increase ganon's sh height? I've never had any problem with his current height, and making it higher would just make it harder to shffl bairs on people. His aerials hit through the stage 1 platforms on battlefield (his dair even hits them), and as long as he doesn't have any up grav applied to him, he can still thunderstorm just fine. So... why do you want to increase his sh height?

You're forgetting about the gravity increase. 1.3 grav probably doesn't give him enough time off the ground to thunderstorm (I don't know, I'm no Ganon player).

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm not forgetting anything. Ganon can still thunderstorm with 1.5 downgrav, but it gets killed as soon as he hits 1.02 upgrav.

 

[Almas]

But increasing his SH height counteracts the increased grav, retaining the ability.

EDIT: I've got everything prepared to write it now (the amount of small chores that has to be done in preparation is somewhat frustrating). I'd like to note that the character specific gravity code does not affect Bowser or DK's Up+Bs (it's a quirk), and I can specifically tweak Link's Up+B. That may change your decisions as to gravity.

If anyone else has input, I'd like to hear it soon, because I do plan to get round to this... eventually. The list seems somewhat conservative compared to what many people like, it'll be interesting to see how it goes down.

 

[leafgreen386]

Did you not read what I just typed? I said that ganon can still thunderstorm even with 1.5 downgrav. It's only the upgrav that kills finished (before landing) aerials. He doesn't need nor want a higher sh.

Downgravity is applied only during knockback or when you drop from a platform/run off the stage, and also during fast falls.

Upgravity is applied only when you jump or otherwise give yourself upward momentum.

Downgrav is what is gonna get a character combo'd/hard to kill off the top. Upgrav is what's gonna tighten their jumps and make the game feel more natural with the additional downgrav.

Currently, the standard sets most people are using use at most 1.25 downgrav, and yet now mookie is advocating giving some characters 1.3 downgrav just to make them "faster fallers." I think that should be kept the limit of what we're going to go to, and make it more like 1.1 = floaty, 1.17 = normal, 1.25 = fast faller.

Now, I think that ganon serves more to gain from fitting in with the normal group, but without the extra upgrav, and although I'm no link player, the same probably holds true for him, too.

 

[Almas]

Am I correct in the assumption that Ganon loses the ability to thunderstorm because he does not jump as high with reduced SH?

Thus, by increasing his SH height, does this not counteract the reduction caused by the Ugrav?

Thus, does this not give him back the ability to thunderstorm provided the values are correct?

Coincidentally, my gravity code has the surprising effect of not changing many Up+Bs (sometimes for reasons beyond my understanding, but the evidence is in the playtesting), so increasing the value of it generally only serves to tighten up jumps. Given that we can also change FH and SH values...

 

[leafgreen386]

You are correct. You could increase his sh height while increasing his upgrav and he would still retain his ability to thunderstorm if the values are right. The thing is I see nothing wrong with his sh right now... at all, and his second jump barely sends him anywhere as is...