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Social Stuff that ends in fair..... A Sheik Social Thread!
- Thread starter Teczer0
- Start date
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
If you're going to SH fair is it really worth attempting to L cancel it when it auto cancels so easily?
Since fair is usually a combo ender I can't think of a reason why you would attempt to do it low enough to the ground (in a combo) so you would even be in the position to L cancel
Maybe if you fair on the peak of your jump and land on a platform above you should l cancel, yes?
Since fair is usually a combo ender I can't think of a reason why you would attempt to do it low enough to the ground (in a combo) so you would even be in the position to L cancel
Maybe if you fair on the peak of your jump and land on a platform above you should l cancel, yes?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
It never really hurts to go through the motions, I feel. Also, combo-starting fairs are pretty common. Things like fair > grab and stuff like that. Such fairs are also done pretty low, meaning that you would probably need to L-cancel for them to work.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Makes sense. Is that a true combo (or close enough) at low percent?
What characters does that work against?
I just started playing sheik seriously again literally today.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Sheik inherited the technique of pause buffering from OoT? I need to get in on this.
So a sheik chain grab. Eiher dash grab forward or dash grab behind. Cover all options with only two options? I like.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
It honestly depends on the character being CG'd, doesn't it? 
And you're saying that, Jolteon, after just arguing with me on the P:M Social thread that TCing on reaction isn't very feasible. 
And you're saying that, Jolteon, after just arguing with me on the P:M Social thread that TCing on reaction isn't very feasible. 
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Let's keep PM Sheik, SD remix Sheik, Brawl- Sheik, Brawl+ Sheik, Balanced Brawl Sheik, and whatever other incarnations of Sheik you want to discuss out of my Melee Sheik board you ******s.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well PAL lets you DI further out from a dthrow, so if the opponent DI's away + techs, you're gonna be hard-pressed to actually "react" to anything. Teching away probably just seals the deal. I don't play PAL though, so I couldn't tell you for sure.
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Well, I'm not really sure about how far but you can walk toward ur opponent while he's DIing away but I'm sure you can, cause I do it all the time.
I guess if he's DIing the farthest he can you don't have time to walk far enough so you can follow the tech away.
I'm gonna check that tonite.
I guess if he's DIing the farthest he can you don't have time to walk far enough so you can follow the tech away.
I'm gonna check that tonite.
soap
Smash Hero
Why walk when u can run?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
How much time do you have to "walk" after you've dthrown a Falcon? He falls fast, lolz. 
Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you can't TC an opponent who DI's away + techs away. I'm saying (guessing, really) you wouldn't be able to purely react to that. In NTSC, Falcon's techrolls can be reacted to quite easily, at least IMO (doesn't have anything to do with Falcon, of course; if anything, it would have to do with Sheik's dthrow). I even get away with dashing a little backwards to cover one direction, seeing he teched the other way, and then dashing over there and hitting/re-grabbing him before he can do anything.
Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you can't TC an opponent who DI's away + techs away. I'm saying (guessing, really) you wouldn't be able to purely react to that. In NTSC, Falcon's techrolls can be reacted to quite easily, at least IMO (doesn't have anything to do with Falcon, of course; if anything, it would have to do with Sheik's dthrow). I even get away with dashing a little backwards to cover one direction, seeing he teched the other way, and then dashing over there and hitting/re-grabbing him before he can do anything.
soap
Smash Hero
well that is extremely sucky, but u can still learn their buffer/escape patterns
or try uthrow?
or try uthrow?
You can dash it works fine too.
you can, imo reacting to his non tech rolls this way is annoying though.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
A very underused throw, IMO.
Can't you just WD during the initial dash animation? That's what I always do and it works fine, even though I play NTSC. Dash in the direction he's DIing and WD right before/as he techs and then react. Sometimes, I just dash past him preemptively because tech away + DI away will cover more distance than tech towards will. When the opponent techs, I'll WD and then react.
virtuososteve
Smash Apprentice
I was told that when you down throw, with falcon for example, to stare into the center of the stage and with your peripherals see where the camera moves when they tech or dont tech. With that direction thats where you dash for the tech chase. Sometimes though in my case the camera moves right but they roll left. idk lol
How do you guys do it?
How do you guys do it?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That sounds.............extremely complicated, lolz!
stelzig
Smash Lord
Sometimes I can't even make it to people who DI and tech away in time if I just guess and go for it. I'm gonna have to agree with over actually.
Edit: Should work on falcon still though.
Edit: Should work on falcon still though.
virtuososteve
Smash Apprentice
Kirbykaze how do you improve your prediction in tech chasing? are there things you look for specifically how I do or what?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I can't speak for KK, but I think sometimes, the way someone DIs kinda gives away which way they will tech. Some people don't bother to switch the control stick from DIing in one direction to teching in the other to switch it up. That's one of those things you can just catch onto over the course of a set. You can also observe people's habits in certain situations. It's a primal fear to be hit at the ledge, so some people will automatically tech away from ledges without thinking about it. IMO, the hardest thing to look out for when tech-chasing are missed techs.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
As I have stated numerous times, I tech chase the way I do with the consistency I do because I learned where the invincibility runs out in the spacies' animations (and some other characters, over time, since low percent tech chases became important vs them but let's not get bogged down in detail) so I have a specific visual cue I look for that signals to me that I'm supposed to grab them for the tech stand, jab because I saw the green flash (indicating ground bounce), or start running because they tech rolled, and so forth. Over time, I realized that I could continue to do this but add little touches that provided protection or contingencies vs certain routine responses of the defending character without sacrificing any mental energy, reaction consistency, and so forth (spacing outside Fox's shine range to improve grab rate vs tech stand, for instance). So, really, it just meant I was making my reaction window a couple frames bigger than it's supposed to be, based strictly off the frame data.
When I practiced regularly, that was my main method of doing the tech chase with every character (I had something like this for every character I played at all). This resulted in a lot of standard positional responses on my end after throws and certain types of hits (that would produce a knockdown). This is what let me kill people in one hit by tech chasing into a launcher into a combo into dair > u-smash or something into fair > edgeguard.
However, as we all know, I'm not strategically perfect and get bored with that kind of play if it's all I do (unless it's someone I dislike or something) since I do like to guess because I like to combo and act silly. So I had to learn behavioral and habitual tendencies, which is what bubbaking is talking about (although not with much depth). On that subject, I will say that people tend to be obvious in general anyway with how they react to being hit even though they're mixing up their tech (or think they are) so this results in me getting a lot of really stupid plays. Nonsense that could rival Drephen's combo video. In general, people tend to think they're too clever.
That's not to say stuff you're talking about is not useful but I kind of expect people to notice things like that by now. It's 2013 and I learned that stuff in 2007 (and posted about it a lot). Really, it's more useful to put yourself in the opponent's shoes for stuff like that rather than record tech habits and play numbers. But that requires a high amount of finesse, so I don't expect noobs to get it.
When I practiced regularly, that was my main method of doing the tech chase with every character (I had something like this for every character I played at all). This resulted in a lot of standard positional responses on my end after throws and certain types of hits (that would produce a knockdown). This is what let me kill people in one hit by tech chasing into a launcher into a combo into dair > u-smash or something into fair > edgeguard.
However, as we all know, I'm not strategically perfect and get bored with that kind of play if it's all I do (unless it's someone I dislike or something) since I do like to guess because I like to combo and act silly. So I had to learn behavioral and habitual tendencies, which is what bubbaking is talking about (although not with much depth). On that subject, I will say that people tend to be obvious in general anyway with how they react to being hit even though they're mixing up their tech (or think they are) so this results in me getting a lot of really stupid plays. Nonsense that could rival Drephen's combo video. In general, people tend to think they're too clever.
That's not to say stuff you're talking about is not useful but I kind of expect people to notice things like that by now. It's 2013 and I learned that stuff in 2007 (and posted about it a lot). Really, it's more useful to put yourself in the opponent's shoes for stuff like that rather than record tech habits and play numbers. But that requires a high amount of finesse, so I don't expect noobs to get it.
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
KK, I'm REALLY interested in what you mean by too clever. Care to fill us in a bit?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I wish frame data existed for characters and techs you can chase/punish on reaction with the least amount of effort. It wouldn't be that hard to do but I don't have any experience with AR or dolphin.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Sometimes, it's best to just resist the urge to troll a thread, no matter the reason.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Not
me.
me.
FrankerZ in my sheik boards :x
Speaking of, I was really surprised at the number of melee players who are now really good speedrunners. Its pretty awesome actually.
And no, I was planning on going but I got a job as an instructor over the summer and it is during Evo :<.
And research so yea.
Zilyn
Smash Apprentice
So, I am a pretty new competitive smasher. I went to my last tournament in May and actually placed 9th out of 23 which I was very happy with. I've had one, occasionally two people to play with that are around my level for the past month but that's been about it. I've improved a lot with my tech chasing abilties, movement control, and knowledge of my character like being able to CC the jab to speed up the second jab. I've going to the second iteration of the first tournament in about a week and I was just wondering if you guys had any tips on how to practice before a tournament. I've been playing as much as I can when I can, but is there any particular ways you might suggest practicing before a tournament? Or a way to fine tune my skills before a tournament? Any advice you guys could give me would be super helpful, and thanks in advance!
mas_torque
Smash Apprentice
Play sets instead of individual matches. Play lots of friendlies.
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
Sup Sheiks
Awfully dead in here
I blame taco
Awfully dead in here
I blame taco
