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Street Fighter IV *Super, AE and Ver.2012*

Minato

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I think Genei Jin could be fine if they just tweak it more. I'm not sure how much damage it does currently with the time nerf, but imo it doesn't deserve to be doing a lot considering it's an easy hit confirm, corner carrying, link to Ultra, good super. I didn't play AE enough to see if GJ gave high priority like 3S, so I didn't know that if that's true or not.

Judging from the change list, I do think Yun is nerfed to the point where he's not destroyed but not amazing either. The dive kick restriction is a huge nerf, the frame changes on his command grab and EX Lunge were well deserved as well. Along with damage nerfs and other small nerfs I'm too lazy to mention, I like how they changed him.
 

Big-Cat

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IDK dude.. CCs have been broken since day one in SF. I think only Juris has been balanced (but it's not like the other systems aka Genei-Jin, V-ism, and A-groove).

Do I think it needs to be removed? Hell no. That's like taking Aegis from Urien. You just can't have the character without that. Hopefully Yun will be good, not dominant.

Japan thought Yang was better anyways. *shrugs*
That might change for Juri since it looks like she can FADC into both her Ultras now. However, I suppose her damage output won't reflect Yun's damage since she would only have two bars and most and no Ultra to combo into.
 

OneWingSephiroth

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Do I think it needs to be removed? Hell no. That's like taking Aegis from Urien. You just can't have the character without that.
Except Aegis doesn't give Urien frame priority, crazy mixups, and an all purpose CC. Genei-Jin is one of the Strongest Supers ever conceived by Capcom. You know the Super is ridiculous when w/o it within 3S Yun would be Middle-Tier at best, but with it, he's #2 just slightly behind Chun.

The only other Supesr to have shown up that was nearly as powerful as it was Tengu Stones from NG (15 second Orbs w/ even greater chip damage. Awesome idea Capcom!) and possibly ST. Balrog Super. However Rog's super has the ability to miss, where Yun during the activation of GJ will have continuous options and priority while its running.

Yun has greatly benefited with the Super in AE, it's without question one of his Top-3 best reasons why he was good within AE (I would even possibly argue #2 or #1 here). Not only GJ but the option to land Ultra as well. In a game that is infested with crazy high damaging supers already, I don't believe its neccessary.

Now I'm not saying that they possibly can't tweak it, but a CC Super has always been dumb and more often then not, its too good. I can't even remember a time in which Genei-Jin wasn't super effective when it was in a SF game besides possibly NG, and that's only because the twins could do so much damage w/o ever having to resort to super within that game.

I'm hoping that they stop the continual trend of nerfing the strong characters, and just simply improving the weaker characters to be able to contend and compete. That way it would make it far more interesting because the game is steadily going into a stale total nonsense where the only real damage output will be fishing for supers and utlras.
 

Big-Cat

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Let me ask you this. KOF gives everyone essentially a Genei-Jin. Do you think there's a problem with that?

I wish that they would increase the damage output in general without making the game too defensive like Vanilla. As I mentioned in the FG thread, the much higher damage in KOF doesn't bother me one bit yet the fact that SF4 is big on multiple mixups is starting to wear on me.
 

Lythium

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Let me ask you this. KOF gives everyone essentially a Genei-Jin. Do you think there's a problem with that?
Well, it's almost more like every character has access to a mode that allows them to cancel specials into other specials, supers, or maxes for a limited time. It doesn't actually make everything juggle, but the result is similar. And most practical HD combos are loops of two or three specials.

I'm okay with it. As you said, everyone has it, and it's an interesting part of the combo mechanics. Plus, it does cost meter to use.
 

OneWingSephiroth

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Let me ask you this. KOF gives everyone essentially a Genei-Jin. Do you think there's a problem with that?
King of Fighters is its own fighting game and thus will play and have mechanics that may share similarities or have a different philosophy of how you fight one another all together. Remember that SnK went into that route within their games well before Street Fighter even attempted to do so.

This is why in today's age, their is a lack of SF fundamentals within the current vs older SF games. I've said this a few times over, but the core of SF is what made it unique and completely different to SNK as a whole. Simply throwing it all together so that they can feel slightly similar to me is detracting from what made SF unique.

SF was never a rush-down fighting game, or aggressive mentality (that depended entirely on the character, say Balrog you obviously had to rush in, while Ryu would've dominated with zoning and footsies), but when its forcing players to having to think that way, and to play that way. Then now we have a real problem, the class of strong characters within SF4 to AE are apparent. Where as in SF4 you had more of a mix of archetype characters up on the top, while in AE its mainly offensive rush oriented characters.

This is why you have players like Sabin who even state that AE takes away from a lot of character uniqueness that was present when the first #4 game came out.

I wish that they would increase the damage output in general without making the game too defensive like Vanilla. As I mentioned in the FG thread, the much higher damage in KOF doesn't bother me one bit yet the fact that SF4 is big on multiple mixups is starting to wear on me.
I worshiped Vanilla's defensive gameplay if you will. I also wouldn't call it defensive, I would call it aggressive zoning which was a dying art within the world of SF.

The idea that your normals would do very good damage resulting in even players having to really understand positioning and true SF fundamentals was what made Vanilla fun within the first place. Hence why I've never been a fan of things like Genei-Jin because its power and priority when compared to other characters supers is simply far too great and too much.

CC's are never good within a SF game. GJ is a huge reason why Yun is that good, and if you run through the past of SF games which had CC's, we've seen the same continuing trend.
 

Minato

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Let me ask you this. KOF gives everyone essentially a Genei-Jin. Do you think there's a problem with that?

I wish that they would increase the damage output in general without making the game too defensive like Vanilla. As I mentioned in the FG thread, the much higher damage in KOF doesn't bother me one bit yet the fact that SF4 is big on multiple mixups is starting to wear on me.
HD Mode is nowhere near to how cheap CCs are in SF games. Lythium basically summed it up. All it does is lets you cancel all normals to specials and allows you to drive cancel out of specials while your HD meter drains. Plus the more you HD cancel, the faster your bar depletes which balances it. And like DCing, you can't HDC on block.

V-ism and A Groove CC gave you invincibility on startup, V-ism gave unblockables, the shadows kept you in blockstun which meant guaranteed guard break, Genei Jin gave insane speed and priority and a full bar could be built in 10 seconds if you were good. Those were my big issues with CCs. HD are like a balanced version of it that doesn't ruin the neutral game by simply activating it which makes me happy.

While the damage output is higher in KoF, KoF matches take the same amount of time to complete as SF4 or even longer at times.

My issues with SF4 is mainly too much guessing. Juice Box did a good job describing the faults on that in one of his interviews. This is why I really hate facing a good Seth in SF4. :ohwell:
 

Big-Cat

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This is why in today's age, their is a lack of SF fundamentals within the current vs older SF games. I've said this a few times over, but the core of SF is what made it unique and completely different to SNK as a whole. Simply throwing it all together so that they can feel slightly similar to me is detracting from what made SF unique.
So what is it about SF that makes it unique?

SF was never a rush-down fighting game, or aggressive mentality (that depended entirely on the character, say Balrog you obviously had to rush in, while Ryu would've dominated with zoning and footsies), but when its forcing players to having to think that way, and to play that way. Then now we have a real problem, the class of strong characters within SF4 to AE are apparent. Where as in SF4 you had more of a mix of archetype characters up on the top, while in AE its mainly offensive rush oriented characters.
Isn't the main reason for the top characters in AE, and just 4 in general, is that there is a general tendency for each of them to have good reversals, save for Chun-Li, Guile, and Viper?
I worshiped Vanilla's defensive gameplay if you will. I also wouldn't call it defensive, I would call it aggressive zoning which was a dying art within the world of SF.
Aggressive zoning? Tell me more. And that's not quite what I was getting at in terms of defensive play. I have no problems with zoning or anything like that. Rather, it's more that it was risky to approach an opponent with jump-ins or pressure thanks to anti-airs being so good and with the case of Ryu and Sagat, they could FADC > Ultra from a successful DP.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I liked the concept of SF4 vanilla since it was more spacing and short BB combos. At this point, AE feels a lot like blazblue >_>
 

OneWingSephiroth

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So what is it about SF that makes it unique?
Prior to all of the supers/cc nonsense, it was a much slower paced game, with less emphasis on pushing everyone to having to rush down. More chess play, and none of that "activate" super for 50% damage garbage that you see today. Completely different mentality of play with current SF players today vs SF players when fundamentals were absolutely prime.

As Jeff once stated about Daigo's mentality vs OG mentality. Umehara likes to fish for the big win, while OG fished for the slow methodical kill. Some of these concepts were returning in Vanilla SF4 which I really, really liked. Because of the big damage on just simple normals and normal supers in general (meaning good strong damage for the regular Hadouken, Shoryuken, etc, etc, not speaking of Shinkuu-Hadouken etc), players had to be more patient.

In AE with everything being heavily watered down with only big damage deriving from supers/ultras, the mentality has averted more towards an aggressive playstyle again which again removes away from the uniqueness of SF and its fundamentals.

Isn't the main reason for the top characters in AE, and just 4 in general, is that there is a general tendency for each of them to have good reversals, save for Chun-Li, Guile, and Viper?
I wouldn't state that based entirely upon good reversals. With Vanilla SF4 playing closer to the mentality of OG SF as opposed to AE, you had a better balance of overall flexibility for characters to compete and what they were designed to do. Some SF games will bring this out better then others. AE with direct nerf of normals, AA's, and multiple other individual nerfs pertaining to character individuals basically had the sole intention of pushing for a more aggressive playstyle.

It was obviously what Capcom wanted and they got it, but that to me is once again a removal of character archetypes. You shouldn't be forced to having to play with that mentality for the majority of the characters, that should be left upon the character that you play.

Aggressive zoning? Tell me more. And that's not quite what I was getting at in terms of defensive play. I have no problems with zoning or anything like that. Rather, it's more that it was risky to approach an opponent with jump-ins or pressure thanks to anti-airs being so good and with the case of Ryu and Sagat, they could FADC > Ultra from a successful DP.
Aggressive zoning is a concept more in the lines of pushing hard with strong positioning to gain the life lead, then controlling the match up from their, because with this advantage it will directly put your opponent into being forced to coming to you.

Jump-ins before all of the crazy high-damaging options was what made SF fun. When you jumped in, it was supposed to be scary. That's why jump-ins were more methodical and timed, where as now a days you have less-risk on all of that. The purpose of AA's are supposed to make you think twice about jumping, so that you'll make smarter decisions upon that. This is why I'm not a fan of continuous nerfs to AA's like Shoryuken and Tiger Uppercut, for they are meant to plant your opponent to the ground, put fear into, and allow you to control the air.

Ryu and Sagat did have good AA's into Ultra which I felt was highly unneeded (I'm speaking about being able to go into the Ultra, not the AA itself which was perfectly fine) however that still doesn't remove what I would like to see more intelligent jump ins with stronger AA's.

On the notion of CC's, they are leagues dumb. As much as I <3 CvS2, A-Groove was completely unnecessary. Throwing out a simple jab would become a fatal mistake when you were up against a CC character, which always made me shake my head in disbelief. The risk/reward for doing such a thing was so far in between because nobody can try to make a case that throwing a jabs worth of damage could potentially cost you half or more of your life. Again, can't remember a time where CC's within a SF game were not pevital with a significant advantage.

Hence why I said I don't believe that their will ever be a proper nerf to Genei-Jin unless you absolutely put it down to the pedestrian level which would then make it useless which isn't what you entirely want want either.

I myself am banking that with the hopeful patch of 2012 that you'll see more of what you saw with the first two previous installments of SF4.
 

Big-Cat

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I'm sorry, but I gotta disagree with you on most of your positions. Maybe it's a generational thing because your idea of fun is just fishing (ironically enough) to me.
Prior to all of the supers/cc nonsense, it was a much slower paced game, with less emphasis on pushing everyone to having to rush down. More chess play, and none of that "activate" super for 50% damage garbage that you see today. Completely different mentality of play with current SF players today vs SF players when fundamentals were absolutely prime.
But what if you don't like that the game is slower paced. Sure, you can always tell them to play something else, but that's not really good for players since you have people that play in so many ways.

I do understand the whole Super thing though, but it's not like there isn't some risk to them (unless we're talking cr.LP as a hitconfirm). At least BlazBlue, in comparison scales like hell if you start with an A attack.

As Jeff once stated about Daigo's mentality vs OG mentality. Umehara likes to fish for the big win, while OG fished for the slow methodical kill. Some of these concepts were returning in Vanilla SF4 which I really, really liked. Because of the big damage on just simple normals and normal supers in general (meaning good strong damage for the regular Hadouken, Shoryuken, etc, etc, not speaking of Shinkuu-Hadouken etc), players had to be more patient.
I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of the whole slow, methodical kill thing. While I do understand that it has its place (and believe me, I know), making the whole game like that is just absolutely boring to me.

In AE with everything being heavily watered down with only big damage deriving from supers/ultras, the mentality has averted more towards an aggressive playstyle again which again removes away from the uniqueness of SF and its fundamentals.
But is that necessarily a bad thing? Just because it's unique doesn't make it good. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just presenting an argument.

It was obviously what Capcom wanted and they got it, but that to me is once again a removal of character archetypes. You shouldn't be forced to having to play with that mentality for the majority of the characters, that should be left upon the character that you play.
Yet, you want a slower paced game. I don't see how that's not limiting playstyle preferences. I prefer playing in a fast paced way, but I wouldn't be able to thanks to the game being slow paced. Therefore, I'm limited on how I can play my character.
 

Maniclysane

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It was obviously what Capcom wanted and they got it, but that to me is once again a removal of character archetypes. You shouldn't be forced to having to play with that mentality for the majority of the characters, that should be left upon the character that you play.
The best thing about SF4 was the diverse cast. Differences between characters were generally in the playstyle. It feels like most characters in AE just have different BnBs and a mixed palette of specials. None of it really feels like it had much thought put into it. The whole game is starting to feel stale.

I'll also second the point on the guessing. The mixups you can do in this game are nuts. With the long, highly damaging BnBs that almost the entire cast have, mixups give so much reward.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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He still has most of his tools but can't be ******** with them anymore. It feels that way at least. Like you can punish him with a ch Focus or a grab if he dive kicks too close to your head now. Damage nerf helps. He's still good. Just like.... Super Boxer/Ryuish good. Not wtfiswrongwithcapcom good. Need to play more Yuns to be sure though so....grain of salt.

:phone:
 

OneWingSephiroth

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I'm sorry, but I gotta disagree with you on most of your positions. Maybe it's a generational thing because your idea of fun is just fishing (ironically enough) to me.

But what if you don't like that the game is slower paced. Sure, you can always tell them to play something else, but that's not really good for players since you have people that play in so many ways.
Slower gameplay, doesn't mean its always slow. The problem with AE and what it did was forced every player to be more aggressive, which is the direct problem entirely. Remember that not all characters were made to be in your face. When was Sim ever meant to having to rushdown 24/7? Ryu's gameplay is not built to be like this either.

This is what I meant by slower gameplay. Because SF is a game at heart about positioning, zoning and footsies. That's the fundamentals of it. You can still be aggressive, that's what character archetypes like Balrog, Twin Bros, Fei etc were built for.

However purposing forcing a game into a rush me down takes a lot away from many characters, and even when the game was slower paced as in SF4 and offensive rushdown characters were still great in those games.

Making it more offensive penalizes more archetypes then anything within AE.

I do understand the whole Super thing though, but it's not like there isn't some risk to them (unless we're talking cr.LP as a hitconfirm). At least BlazBlue, in comparison scales like hell if you start with an A attack.
Supers have great advantages. How many times does Ryu stop shooting a Hadouken once he realizes Honda has Ultra? How many times do you change your gameplan once Yun has enough meter to activate Genei-Jin. The damage potential off them for one mistake are way excessive and have always skewered the "win with the life-lead mentality".

It's greatly devalued that strategical concept of taking care of your health, because in these games, that doesn't matter as much because one connected super or Ultra can turn the match around.

I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of the whole slow, methodical kill thing. While I do understand that it has its place (and believe me, I know), making the whole game like that is just absolutely boring to me.
Obviously fun should be a part of it, however the slower paced made the game more strategical and more methodical to play. Also as I said earlier, that being slower paced doesn't neccessarily mean that you are going at a turtles pace. If you want to be more aggressive, their are characters who push for this mentality.

SF4 you had a greater blend of footsies/zoners vs aggressive characters. In AE, that's dwindled a lot, hence why I said the more slower play is beneficial because it directly makes for a greater variety.

But is that necessarily a bad thing? Just because it's unique doesn't make it good. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just presenting an argument.
It's bad because of what I said earlier. It removes a lot of character archetypes. Look to SF3 due to parry, you couldn't zone effectively anymore...everyone had to rush in. Just imagine if Shoto's in SF3 could zone correctly with Hadoukens, or that Remy could properly position with LoV's like how Guile can, or that Necro could actually use distance limbs w/o fear of eating a Parry punish, it would have become a completely better game all together.

Yet, you want a slower paced game. I don't see how that's not limiting playstyle preferences. I prefer playing in a fast paced way, but I wouldn't be able to thanks to the game being slow paced. Therefore, I'm limited on how I can play my character.
By forcing players to having to move in close, you are pushing for many of them to not be able to play to their advantages. That's the most significant problem with this train of thought. You cannot force aggressive mentality to the system, when you have characters like Ryu who wasn't intended for such play, or Dhalsim whom wasn't intended to be doing 24/7 mixups and cross ups on a character.

Just because the gameplay prioritizes more footsies and zoning doesn't mean that offensive gameplay to push for a faster pace doesn't exist. Look to Viper back in SF4, look to Rufus in SF4, look to Balrog in SF4, all of those characters were successful as offensive oriented characters within a dominant footsie, zoning game.
 

Lythium

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I haven't played this game in ages, but in my opinion:
- stop jumping so much
- turtle and poke more, you're playing Chun
- respect your opponent's options.
 

Big-Cat

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Slower gameplay, doesn't mean its always slow. The problem with AE and what it did was forced every player to be more aggressive, which is the direct problem entirely. Remember that not all characters were made to be in your face. When was Sim ever meant to having to rushdown 24/7? Ryu's gameplay is not built to be like this either.
Ok, I think I get what you're saying now. It sounds like you would like the game to have more defensive/zoning options, am I right?

@Serris
I gotta go with what Lythium said. Especially on the whole jumping thing. Another thing is that you gotta hold back on the Hazanshu and use more tick throw setups.
 

ETWIST51294

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I'm uploading a couple of matches featuring my Chun-Li. I'd like some feedback on them, if anyone's willing. Note that the PC version hasn't been updated to Version 2012 yet.

Chun-Li vs. Makoto - WIN
Chun-Li vs. M. Bison - LOSS
I'm gonna be a little harsh, but what do you expect? I'm twist. But you'll get better.

I think you're main problem is the your fundamentals are TERRIBLE. You throw out moves randomly trying to hit confirm **** like Marvel 3. You can't rush down with Chun. So stop trying. You bait limbs and jump-ins with Chun. Don't ALWAYS go for a reversal. Sometimes just block. You mash a lot. That **** don't work offline. You NEVERRRRR AA. You need to do that more. I seen you go for birdkick AAs, those don't always work.

Basically, Marvel 3 ****ed up the way you play other fighters lol. That game will do that.
 

Big-Cat

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That's probably one reason why I was so *** in that game and KOF feels perfect.
 

Minato

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I'm uploading a couple of matches featuring my Chun-Li. I'd like some feedback on them, if anyone's willing. Note that the PC version hasn't been updated to Version 2012 yet.

Chun-Li vs. Makoto - WIN
Chun-Li vs. M. Bison - LOSS
First one I saw was the Bison one, but what I'm going to say is pretty much what everyone else said and more. First, stop jumping. You can walk. Second, stop starting every match with a Kikouken. It's probably unintentional, but you really need to be aware of weird habits like that. Third, stop doing Hazanshu. Yes it works online sometimes but what if they focus it? You're in deep trouble and it's best to save that as your random card to seal a match. Fourth, do not to regular spinning bird kick on wakeup. Chun-Li has terrible wakeup options and EX SBK is your only viable one since it's her only special with invincibility startup (but they can safe jump it). Fifth, I saw you use EX SBK to try and punish a normal after you blocked it. There are better options than that since the startup is fairly long and your LP or LK should be faster. Sixth, I don't like your use of crouching Roundhouse. You can space it further if you're just throwing it out (otherwise, doing it too close is punishable), and I didn't like you using it to punish a move on block. The startup on that move is just too long. If Bison does a random Ultra like that where it's not a meaty, just neutral jump and punish.

On the Makoto match, I'm pretty sure that wakeup flip kick was a mistake. You should try to iron out any easy execution errors like that. Don't use EX SBK as an anti-air. Use something like her standing forward (MK) or whatever. After you knocked them down with a crouching roundhouse, I would've liked to have seen a better mix up instead of Hazanshu. When Makoto (or anyone) whiffs an Ultra or something, do not just trip them. Go for your best damage combo.

I noticed most of your damage comes from jump in combos. It looks like you're not confident in footsies which is something that Chun-Li excels at. I recommend watching other Chun-Li players and see how they play. Like Twist said, bait and punish. If you're not comfortable with that play style, I suggest trying someone else. Also, manage your meter better. Every time I look at your meter, it's all gone.
 

ETWIST51294

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That's probably one reason why I was so *** in that game and KOF feels perfect.
See, there are a set of different skills you need for Ultimate.

You need a movement game, you need more than back and forth movement, you need to know how to MOVE EVERYWHERE. You need to know how to block because jeez blocking is difficult in Marvel games. You need to know when to pushblock. And Marvel will test your reflexes, ESP Marvel 2.

You don't really need those things in SF.
 

Serris

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Right there in my signature above. Handy little site.



EDIT: I can't seem to find you. You'll have to add me.
 

Metal Reeper

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Hey guys I've been playing AE for like a week or 2 with a friend so I just got this game lastnight for 360.
My GT is "TheMetalReeper" I'm really looking to play everyone and get better. I am strictly playing Balrog. I just....love him so much. Hope I can meet more awesome SWF friends through this game.
 
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