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Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)
- Thread starter JTB
- Start date
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
This X1000
I really think they need to do one or two things to maintain FF validity. They need to make it so that you can't FF a spot already occupied by units. Or they need to make the FF a lot skinnier (a wall rather than a block).
I like the first idea, as this will prevent toss from just splitting an army that surprised him and got the surround/concave and positioning. The worst thing is when I'll make a brilliant surround and multiflank, but there are 7-8 sentries and they just FF around themselves and push all my units out. This would make FF more of an offensive tool and a surprise initiate. This would make good FF usage require more skill and positioning.
The inherent flaw with FF that I think everyone agrees on is while Protoss has been attempted to be balanced around FF therefore making T1/T1.5 weak, FF is never weak, and becomes even more useful the longer the sentries stay alive.
Their are plenty of things they could do to try to balance this more so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they can fix this.
They could:
FF not castable in spaces already occupied by units.
Make wall skinnier (don't think this would help much, just makes the spacing different)
Decrease the time FF stay up
Put FF and Guardian Shield on cooldowns rather than mana. Or limit FFs in such a way that only 1 per sentry could be used in a typical fight.
Remove it from the game :D
Up the cost of Sentries.
Make FF an upgrade. (The only problem I see with this really is I'm not sure how Protoss could deal with baneling busting or strong timing pushes early game without at least 1 FF to hold it, it could be fine though if they scout the baneling nest they could just make a 3-4 zealots while switching to immortals to wall for all I know).
I think I have mentioned this before, but also for Zerg, I think it would be cool if zerglings/banelings could swarm/climb over ultras. Just like how many insect colonies just walk all over the bigger insects. This would prevent Ultras from being lol blocked by zerglings/banelings when trying to engage. They already have enough trouble with ramps and mineral patches. This would also help in letting them be the meatshield say running up a ramp, allowing banelings to come from behind them (and over) to attack the buildings/defensive structures.
I'm just rambling here XD.
Jiffyboob
Smash Lord
I heard OS is pretty good at this game. 
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Not a john, just a reality. Z has to do all-ins or really risky play to win, plain and simple.
I am, but nearing my cap. I'm at 52.13% for win percentage, which is pretty close to battle.net's target. I'm still beating "slightly favored" players so my ELO is still higher than my ranking, but games are getting harder. Terrans are making only marines and spamming bunkers while getting an expo up, then making a few turrets in their min lines all while gaining gas and scouting additional expos now. Aside from a baneling bust, they're untouchable until they leave their base. I can muta harass, but by the time I can do that effectively the terran generally says "okay" and just leaves to kill me because mutas suck in an army.I heard OS is pretty good at this game.
Protoss is basically hit or miss. If they get to late game, they win. If they get a fast expansion up and protect against a burrowed roach rush or muta push or hydra drop, they win. There's not much changing that right now.
Terran aren't actually that good as a race, despite how people complain. They're heavily propped up by ramp-based choke maps, which is almost every map in play right now.
RBC ftw, I guess.
M@v
Subarashii!
Agreed. Terran is waaay overated.
I feel the order right now is P>T >Z(slightly).
That being said, each race isn't insanely ahead of the other, but lets not forget this is less than a year since release; lots of balancing needs done still plus 2 expansions.
Ideally I'd like to see near useless units get love(bcs, reapers, carriers, mommaships.)
Only zerg really can use all their units atm. The only problem is its sometimes hard to get to broodlords and ultras. Upped ultras, and broodlords **** imo.
I feel the order right now is P>T >Z(slightly).
That being said, each race isn't insanely ahead of the other, but lets not forget this is less than a year since release; lots of balancing needs done still plus 2 expansions.
Ideally I'd like to see near useless units get love(bcs, reapers, carriers, mommaships.)
Only zerg really can use all their units atm. The only problem is its sometimes hard to get to broodlords and ultras. Upped ultras, and broodlords **** imo.
M@v
Subarashii!
BTW OS can I practice PvZ/TvZ with you sometime? I feel my toss is better now but sometimes the best way to tell is from other people.
@Mav: Husky commentated on a few QXC games vs. Idra and Whitera where he used lots of Reaper harass early and mid-game. It was pretty damaging. Used about 6-7 in a group to prevent Whitera from taking his 3rd. He also went all air Game 2/3 using a lot of BC's, but it wasn't really successful, tho' it was interesting to watch.
M@v
Subarashii!
Bcs are total crap vs zerg because they just spawn corruptors, which encourages them to go brood lords. Brood lords are the only thing I fear more than banelings in TvZ. Its not even the supply before rax nerf to reapers that got me. Its not even the jet packs to factory nerf that got me. Its their completely trash build time that makes me want to rage. They take FOREVER to build, to the point that if they don't work you have almost no army otherwise.
You were fine with their build time before?
M@v
Subarashii!
Yes, but dont forget you could get them way faster by going barracks first.
So you only liked them for cheesing with before?
M@v
Subarashii!
No you mis-understood me. I meant the older faster build time Plus the supply before rax would be sufficient.
The supply before rax+extra build time+moving jets to factory was overkill.
The supply before rax+extra build time+moving jets to factory was overkill.
Having everything may be overkill, but the only reason you'd ever build a Barracks before a Supply Depot is to cheese. Hell, even the 5 Rax Reaper build didn't involve Rax before Depot. The build time change is also +5 seconds. That's a difference that prevents you from massing Reapers, not from still doing some early damage or scouting with them. I actually can't understand your reasoning on "older build time plus supply before rax would be sufficient" since that's a difference of, as I mentioned, 5 seconds. Unless you were wishing to still go for 5 Rax Reaper, you dirty abuser you.
As I said, it only makes a real difference when you're going for lots of them. Making 2-4, using each as soon as they're out, has been shown to have decent success.
Can someone tell me how to beat Toss with Terran? I feel like the bio ball strat isn't working for me.
early marauder push with about 6-7 marauders. push out halfway through concussive shells and begin harassing the ramp once concussive shells finish.
transition into awesome
what do you to lose to in TvP? early game? mid game? late game? cheeses? 4-gates?
transition into awesome
what do you to lose to in TvP? early game? mid game? late game? cheeses? 4-gates?
This opening just blew my mind.
Especially since Concussive Shells should finish by the time you have 2 Marauders, let alone 6-7.
M@v
Subarashii!
I never used 5rax reaper. Back when it was popular I was only a low ranked platinum scrub that sucked at micro. If I was as good back then as I am now, Hell yes I would of used 5rax reaper, lol. I won't lie
I gave up. Lol. The only things that would sometimes work for me would be heavy banshee builds, thor based builds, then the most basic one was pure marauder with medevac or vikings support pending their response, but this was solely dependent on them not opening stargate, lol.
not when you're bi-winning like me
oh, but then if that's the case, do you wait until you have 6 to 7 with stickpack researched?
The patented ROOT opening was (Marine, Tech Lab) Reaper, Concussives, Marauder, Marauder; pressure the front ramp with the Marine and two Marauders while the Reaper can get in through the back to scout tech for free or pick off Probes. The trick is that the Marauders will force the Stalkers to the front, so they can't watch the sides for Reapers. This takes a pretty decent amount of APM and multitasking, though, so either get good at it while not falling behind on macro or don't bother.
A tamer variant is using those 2 Marauders and Marine and pushing forward with an SCV in front (to soak initial damage when moving up the ramp). 2 Marauders and a Marine are still pretty small, so this is more of a pressure/deny overly greedy plays opening than anything involving damage or even scouting, though.
A newer opening was something like (Marine, Tech Lab) Stim Packs, Marauder, Marauder, Marauder (push middle and claim watchtowers), Marauder; rush in (crucial that you make it past FFs) and stim, pick off units prioritizing Sentries and Stalkers (Zealots take too long to kill) while expanding. There was a cast of TLO doing this for an interesting late-game transition, though I haven't seen much else use of it and Overswarm probably knows more about this opening than I do.
A more aggressive opening is to build 2 rax, one with a Tech Lab, researching Concussives and Stim, producing Marauders and Marines and moving up to the base right as Stim finishes, then attacking while doing whatever. This one's a lot heavier of an attack, though, so it better deal damage.
And then of course you can just do inactive openings and just scout on your own timings, if you're more into macro style, though you'll want to stay aggressive as early as you can, before a critical mass of Colossi or warp-in Psi Storms can be achieved.
A tamer variant is using those 2 Marauders and Marine and pushing forward with an SCV in front (to soak initial damage when moving up the ramp). 2 Marauders and a Marine are still pretty small, so this is more of a pressure/deny overly greedy plays opening than anything involving damage or even scouting, though.
A newer opening was something like (Marine, Tech Lab) Stim Packs, Marauder, Marauder, Marauder (push middle and claim watchtowers), Marauder; rush in (crucial that you make it past FFs) and stim, pick off units prioritizing Sentries and Stalkers (Zealots take too long to kill) while expanding. There was a cast of TLO doing this for an interesting late-game transition, though I haven't seen much else use of it and Overswarm probably knows more about this opening than I do.
A more aggressive opening is to build 2 rax, one with a Tech Lab, researching Concussives and Stim, producing Marauders and Marines and moving up to the base right as Stim finishes, then attacking while doing whatever. This one's a lot heavier of an attack, though, so it better deal damage.
And then of course you can just do inactive openings and just scout on your own timings, if you're more into macro style, though you'll want to stay aggressive as early as you can, before a critical mass of Colossi or warp-in Psi Storms can be achieved.
It's hard to say, really. Theoretically Protoss gets unstoppable against Terran bio when they've got properly spread Amulet-upgraded High Templar along with Charge Zealots, and Immortals of course deter any large number of mech play. Phoenixes tend to shut down any late-game Banshee attempts. There might be some merit in going Battlecruisers while praying they didn't make Voids, but I'm not sure. Generally Terran has attempted to end the game before Protoss achieves critical mass of any higher-tier units, though.
I try to early Maurader push and generally get ***** by force fields on the ramp. Do you think a proxy Rax all in would work? I like the idea of a reaper harrassing while I push the ramp.
We do! I'll be playing a bit of smash this evening but I'll be down for some games later tonight.
Did you already add me? stephenjsilver@gmail.com
Did you already add me? stephenjsilver@gmail.com
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Should play me fool.
Cynan Machae
Smash Journeyman
Actually it's reapepr last, by the time it's done your 2 marauder + 1 marine + scouting scv are almost to the P's base. Since the reaper is the faster unit it's quicker that way. This has been the build i've been using a lot in tvp, usual transition is you make your CC around 20 supply then add 3 rax and pump a lot of marines out of 1 gas + stim, then you add ebay for +1 and either factory/starport or earlier ghost while taking your 3 other gas, while adding 3 tech labs and starting on marauders
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Roman.
Smash Champion
why does idra think fungal is going to be overpowered on pvz? i don't really see it being that big of a difference just cause of double dps
i think the double dps are going to play a much bigger role than you realize
NyTeStRiDeR
Smash Apprentice
Pretty sure this is not true, depending on what u mean by pressure. And even with all the info you talk about either race's economy and saturation, you forget the basic fact that zerg stuff cost less than toss stuff. Zerg units cost less, Zerg makes less structures, dont have to queue up units. (other than queens). Whether those units are worth the supply and resources is more about how weak/strong and cost efficient the units are, which is a different kind of balance discussion.
Since when did every larva have to be used for drones to be ahead of protoss let alone be even. Let the zerg and protoss(not fe) have normal expo timing and let both drone up/probe up to the timing when zerg gets their 3rd, then tell me how many drones zerg has up on toss and how much of those extra drones could still be larva and ne excess larva unused. If all that excess larva couldnt be used to defend a 4gate and have a good economy then that is more about the players ability.
Yes, zerg has to be ahead 1 base against protoss and terran. But 2 base zerg does not put them even with protoss. The 2nd base puts zerg ahead. Not initially but the longer 2 base zerg goes against 1 base protoss, the more zerg pulls ahead(yes both players arent simply just going to stay on those # of bases). The reason it appears 2 base zerg cannot compete with toss is because of how the game plays out and the expo does not get fully saturated in the early stages of the game like u said. But to say zerg cannot outproduce toss without being able to constantly drone is just plain false. There is a reason zerg is ahead in supply at almost all stages of the game.
The reasons protoss 4gate is cuz the new maps are garbage with a ****ty natural to defend as toss(slag pits). I would avoid doing a 4gate v zerg as much as possible as it's a crappy build that shouldnt even work against zerg unless it was close positions. If a zerg loses to a 4gate, its usually either a macro problem, scouting problem, overdroning/making spines or crappy maps(crappy natural).
Don't bring up mc vs july, since july simply got outplayed in game1. July scouted as well as he could, ill give him that. He should have been at least cautious about aggression that he saw a stalker in the army already. He saw the push coming as soon as he could, yet his spines were incredibly late, and he was 38 or so drones to 22 probes (overdroning). Yes ff played a large part in that, but july's army was still pathetic for a very delayed 4gate (mostly from overdroning).
Zerg is way ahead after a failed 4gate that did not kill your hatch(if ur hatch is killed i wouldnt call it a failed 4gate neway) or a bunch of workers. Pulling workers/losing queen should not happen when defending 4gate. Even if u overproduced army to defend it, zerg is going to be ahead in workers and up a base. 4gate is called an all-in for a reason.
What happens after the zerg defends the 4gate?
Zerg insta drones up 10 workers or watever, while toss just sits in his base waiting for his nexus to finish producing 1 worker at a time. So what if toss has full sturation on 1 base, when zerg had to be produce workers way faster than toss on 2 base.
As of right now, protoss does have the edge of zerg. Your way over exaggerating the issues in the matchup and not even the more important issues.
NyTeStRiDeR
Smash Apprentice
Range 9 insta cast and a snare, its as good as storm if not better
-pheonix not viable nemore (though the change to clumping air units might change that depending on how that works)
-muta/ling will be way stronger
-blink stalkers will get ***** by roaches
-dbl fungal= poof sentries
Not sure how much its gonna affect zvt but looks like its gonna be a lot harder for terran with timing pushes. Fungal dps is faster than medivac healing now, so marines with be much weaker. Terran's ability to turtle on large maps to secure more bases would probably prevent it from being too bad.