Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Zankoku]

Actually, I'm a bit curious about production capabilities. While it is true that Zerg can quickly take the natural expansion and instantly boost its production, I have to wonder if now being able to start production of two units every 10 seconds (or four units, if there is constant queen usage at both Hatches) is actually superior to the other races. In tier 1, Terran's maximum production on one base is 1 SCV, 2 Marines, 2 Marauders (7 supply/cycle) (and a Depot); Protoss are just barely incapable of supporting four Warp Gates, including Pylons (8 supply/cycle). So ignoring that this math is completely impractical to actual gameplay, let's run comparison:

Terran (1 base 3rax):
In 3315 seconds,
195 SCVs (9750 Minerals, 195 supply)
255 Marines (12750 Minerals, 255 supply)
195 Marauders (19500 Minerals, 4875 Gas, 390 supply)
Total: 42000 Minerals, 4875 Gas, 840 supply
In one minute:
760 Minerals, 88 Gas, 15 supply

Protoss (1 base 4gate):
In 646 seconds:
38 Probes (1900 Minerals, 38 supply)
34 Zealots (3400 Minerals, 68 supply)
34 Stalkers (4250 Minerals, 1700 Gas, 68 supply)
17 Sentries (850 Minerals, 1700 Gas, 17 supply)
Total:
10400 Minerals, 3400 Gas, 191 supply
In one minute:
966 Minerals, 316 Gas, 18 supply

Zerg (2 base Roach/Hydra):
In 2040 seconds:
136 Drones (6800 Minerals, 136 supply)
120 Overlords (omitted non-larvae costs due to equaling Pylon/Depot)
255 Roaches (19125 Minerals, 6375 Gas, 510 supply)
136 Hydralisks (13600 Minerals, 6800 Gas, 272 supply)
Total:
39525 Minerals, 13175 Gas, 918 supply
In one minute:
1163 Minerals, 388 Gas, 27 supply

...so Zerg's production capability seems to indeed only come out just under twice as ahead as Terran, and 1.5 times ahead against Protoss, if fully saturated on 2 bases compared to full saturation 1 base plays. Note that this would imply they fall behind if on equal bases... Anyway, Zerg's larva spawn mechanic seems to be both a boon and a hindrance, in various aspects.

 

[Overswarm]

Why the different time values? I haven o idea how to read waht you just wrote.

 

[Overswarm]

why does idra think fungal is going to be overpowered on pvz? i don't really see it being that big of a difference just cause of double dps

double dps + 30% damage increase?

This leads to infestor harass being damn near broken. An infestor comes in and uses two fungals on an enemy army. For 4 seconds, his army takes a ton of damage. This can kill observers too.

Now that happens one or twice more. Three units can do toooooons of damage and basically increase the DPS of the zerg army by leaps and bounds. Instead of stalkers simply tanking enough damage to make a roach cry while collosi destroy everything, you'll have infestors totally wrecking the army before and during an engagement. What's more, they can't simply "run away".

It makes a zerg army actually semi-efficient at attacking a toss army head on. That is huge. It's no longer "I hope the toss makes a mistake", but more "I hope I micro this correctly".

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree completely with overswarm's last two posts.

also, ive been messing with infestor builds in the current patch, and i find they are pretty useful units right now anyways.

 

[Zankoku]

Why the different time values? I haven o idea how to read waht you just wrote.

I bolded the important numbers, where I normalized everything down to one minute. I started off with lowest common multiplier to keep initial numbers clean.

 

[victra♥]

We do! I'll be playing a bit of smash this evening but I'll be down for some games later tonight.

Did you already add me? stephenjsilver@gmail.com

Should play me fool.

we should all get together for some swf staff sexy action. where you at ankoku.

also i have another question...

why is boxer so attractive? >o<

 

[Zankoku]

What the hell is wrong with you?





It's obviously NaDa who has the best body.

As for playing me, I rarely see you around, and when I do you decline playing with me 'cause you're busy playing with friends.


EDIT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203774

 

[Pakman]

Approve of map changes.

 

[Omni]

so i finally realized what's been making me freeze and hold me back so much besides the not being familiar with the game part

i think it's simply confidence

not to say that confidence is the reason why i'm not in Plat. but when i play i always feel like i'm behind. but ive noticed many of my replays and that's not always the case.

 

[Overswarm]

Be aggressive for a little while. It helps you get a better game sense.

 

[rhan]

The Terran nerfs just keep coming.

Tempted to switch to Zerg.

 

[Nashun]

Screw that. Amulet removal was the biggest nerf in the patch by far.

Edit: Though I do think stim research nerf does set them back a bit by zerg; may give zerg a little bit more time to drone.

 

[Zankoku]

Loss record removal was the largest nerf in the patch by far.

 

[Omni]

I mean, the stimpack nerf sucks, but I don't feel like it's large enough to severely hinder Terran's playstyle. Moreso, it'll probably force Terran to be more creative or tactical.

Even if your stimpack takes 20 or 30 more seconds to come out that still leaves you with 20/30 seconds to do other things. Like reaper harass or medivac drop or stronger hellion pushes, some kind of harass, or essentially forcing you to change your unit composition up a tad bit.

I think Terran has enough versatility to win games even if they take a few nerfs. Especially if you look at last year's TvZ and TvP.

 

[Pakman]

The Terran nerfs just keep coming.

Tempted to switch to Zerg.

I can't give up on Terran but I might switch to random.

 

[M@v]

I can't give up on Terran but I might switch to random. I think Toss might be the best right now.

I'm going back to terran because they are way more fun to play than any race for me. I still have major issues with their late game, and their generally weaker macro, but I'll find a way.


Back to races, after maining toss for 2 weeks+, toss is the best. I felt like I was playing ez mode in many of my matches, in particular almost all terrans and any zerg who tried something besides roach hydra. Wasn't even close. Even if they do go roach hydra, you can usually kill them even before that with 4gate or 3 gate stargate. Learn forcefield placement and stalker micro and your 4gate just got infinitely better.

PvZ is like TvZ except you can actually punish them for going 14 hatch without risking too much. This is mainly because banelings suck vs protoss, and terrans get rolled by banelings early.


PvP its just about who can 4gate better. Expections are cheese and 2gate pressures. If you both dont 4gate somehow, whoever has more colossi wins. TvT is the only non ******** mirror mu from what I've seen.

 

[Omni]

What have been Terran's biggest nerfs so far?

- Barracks requiring Depot
- Reaper build time
- Siege tank splash damage nerf
- Stim pack delay

I can't think of anymore. But coupled with the buffs P and Z have been receiving. Is it really that much of a setback for Terran?

 

[M@v]

I'm hyped about amulet being removed. It will ease the lategame pains a little bit. They will still be damn near unstoppable, but at least I can focus on only having to counter colossi instead of being caught by a ht tech switch. Most toss wont go hts anymore(Even though they should).

Also I'm going to start trying bcs vs toss lategame with their speed buff. Now they can actually keep up with the army!

 

[Zankoku]

Terran nerfs since release:
Barracks requires Depot
Reaper build time +5 seconds
Battlecruiser damage vs ground -2
Nitro Packs requires Factory
Medivac speed decreased
Bunker build time +5 seconds (and then another +5 seconds)
Stim Packs +30 seconds
Siege Tank damage reduced from 50 to 35+15vsArmored, upgrades from +5 to +3+2vsArmored
SCVs repairing buildings/units now have the same targeting priority as whatever they're repairing
EMP reduced from dealing full energy damage to dealing 100 energy damage

I agree with most of them, but it really is a rather large list.

 

[rhan]

Reaper build time I can agree with but not the Nitro Pack upgrade.

Depot is still ********.

Stim pack delay by 30 seconds is a huge difference.

Siege splash nerf was meh. I could live with it.

Ghost not taking away full shields is also one because Ghosts are suppose to help our Bioball army with Collossi.

It's just becoming stupid now.


Edit: Reaper build time and bunker build time both have been nerfed like 10 extra seconds since release.

 

[Zankoku]

Ghost not taking away full shields is also one because Ghosts are suppose to help our Bioball army with Collossi.

Just so you know, they never took away full shields, only full energy.

Actually, it's long been noted that Ghosts are the wrong pre-emptive answer to Colossi, just like massing Vikings against someone rushing to Templar tech is a huge waste.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Loss record removal was the largest nerf in the patch by far.

That's probably the most stupid thing I've ever seen. Come on Blizzard, really?

I'm glad that Tal'Darim altar is going to be in the map pool and Shakuras is back but I really want Delta out. I really don't know of anyone who actually likes it =/

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Just so you know, they never took away full shields, only full energy.

Actually, it's long been noted that Ghosts are the wrong pre-emptive answer to Colossi, just like massing Vikings against someone rushing to Templar tech is a huge waste.

actually, ghosts arent the same kind of waste since they are still super effective vs sentries and can do large amounts of instant AOE damage to shields.

Loss record removal was the largest nerf in the patch by far.

I thought this too, until a bright man gave me a really good explanation of it. I'll try to recall the argument exactly. I doubt it will be as good, so please try to think along these lines yourself if you are still confused.

What is the purpose of the ladder system? It is to match players up quickly against people of a close skill level. This is intended to keep the matches fun. Improvement and ranking are secondary purposes. People will not continue playing the game if it is not fun. Losing is not fun. I know plenty of people who quit the game because they lost a lot.

What is the most common way for one low level player to insult another low level player? "You suck, just look at your record." This is not an enjoyable experience for anyone. The best thing a mature person would do is just ignore it and not get offended, but realistically speaking many people take pride in their skill and will get offended. By the time you get to masters it is assumed a certain confidence in your abilities that goes beyond your record. "Yeah my record is ____ but i'm masters."

Basically, removing losses from profiles is supposed to improve how fun the game is for people who are in the lower leagues. I think diamond and masters players should be able to see their losses, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

The least they could've done was make it a toggle-able setting.

Yes, Ghosts aren't completely useless, but they also cost 150 gas each and are relatively fragile against Colossus-heavy compositions, so they're generally seen as an inefficient tech choice when put up against Colossi, especially if it ends up delaying more relevant tech like Vikings or even Siege Tanks.

 

[Lore]

Hey, if your economy can support it, is sending a decently large group of lings to harass good? I did it in a match today, and I eventually was able to get to his mineral line, take out his gas probes and a few mineral ones, and keep him from building more void rays. I'm just curious to see if it would work against a decent player.

Oh, and Ankoku, thanks again for telling me to work on my macro. I had 3 fully saturated (is that the term?) expos, and being able to constantly pump out hydras and lings (small harass groups who later became full armies) felt fantastic. I'm also averaging 550 unspent minerals unless the game goes on forever and I have like 5 expos.

Also, whoever goes by GRITnashun, thanks for the tip about getting past cannons! I used it to great effect in my last match. :3

Edit: Yeah, taking out losses was stupid. My huge number was actually motivating me to get better, lol, and because of that, I only lose about 1 out of 3 games.

I'm also working on my creep spread, and I forgot to mention that.

 

[Zankoku]

Nashun goes by GRITnashun, lol. He's definitely a good player to talk to about learning specifics of play, though.

If you like to keep up pressure/map control, poking around with lings isn't a bad plan. Just remember to retreat them if you run into heavy opposition/cannons/walls. Generally higher level players will be more cautious about protecting their worker lines, but if you ever manage to catch someone off guard you should definitely go for it, as economic damage is pretty huge for anyone to come back from. Seems to be a bit of a trend lately to counter-attack with lings into worker lines when the enemy moves his main ball out for an attack, too.

Yeah, macro is pretty broken.

 

[Lore]

Attacking with lings while the main army attacks? That's awesome, lol.

And thanks for letting me know that I figured out something semi useful! ^_^

 

[Overswarm]

so.... infestors wreck toss' deathball now. It's awesome. Like a 150 supply army comes out ahead vs. a maxed army like that. **** you, protoss! HAHahahahahah

 

[Lore]

I'm not gonna lie; that brought a tear to my eye. I'm so happy, lol.

By the way, I just realized that I've never seen a bronze player with more than 1 expo unless I'm wrecking his main. The rest of my time in bronze... Is gonna be fun. :3

 

[rhan]

I wish I could have played in Bronze. Too bad I started off in Gold..

 

[Lore]

I wish I could have played in Bronze. Too bad I started off in Gold..

I started in Silver, but I got bumped down after a month or so.

 

[vrud]

Hey NastyNate sorry i couldnt be on in a long time but ive been swamped with work ill try to be on tomorrow at around 5pm est to play our matches.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I started in platinum (in beta)... then diamond at launch. Dropping 15 games in a row when switching to zerg put me back to platinum for a short time. I guess i have to shoot for masters next season.

 

[M@v]

Started in silver at launch, but I got promoted to gold like 2 days later so it definitely underplaced me. Got to platinum a month later, and diamond about 3 months later.

 

[Hylian]

I started in Sliver, got promoted to gold in 1-2 weeks, then to plat in 1-2 weeks, then to diamond in 1-2 weeks.

No such luck with masters lol.

 

[Zankoku]

I started in Platinum due to 5-0ing placements in August, then played a grand total of 44 games before I completely stopped laddering in December. :V

 

[Lore]

I actually went 3-2 in placement matches.

And you stopped laddering? Lol, what do you play now?

 

[rhan]

I went from:

Gold @ Launch, Platinum a couple weeks later, Diamond about a month or two later, back to Platinum (Cuz I wanted to try new builds) around November.

I honestly wished I could have started from the bottom more then just abusing 5 Racks Reaper lmaooooo

 

[Zankoku]

I pretty much just play customs with people ranging anywhere from Bronze to Diamond (and a few Masters), tending to run about even with 2000-ish Diamond players. Lately I've been going for the Coop vs AI achievements, which greatly improved my macro.

 

[Lore]

I pretty much just play customs with people ranging anywhere from Bronze to Diamond (and a few Masters), tending to run about even with 2000-ish Diamond players. Lately I've been going for the Coop vs AI achievements, which greatly improved my macro.

Oh, ok, that's cool.

So playing against the AI can help with macro?