Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[M@v]

They were perfect ffs, but it literally shut down everything zerg could do. The game july won(He mass hydra dropped MC's main) he almost didnt because sentries almost completely killed it off. He was literally slicing the hydras into groups of like 2. Less pure sentries almost beat more pure hydras.

 

[TheYoster]

Hey, what can Zerg do to counter immortals? I've lost a couple rounds today to swarms of them.

Immortals are fat wh0res....zerglings **** fatties or use air against them(Mutas)...or use hydras. I prefer zerglings since they are the cheapest.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I personally see nothing wrong with FFs.. Of course I only seen them used defensively and to trap and/or split armies.

I'm going to assume the videos aren't out yet cuz all that was livestreamed? ._.

All GSL games are on GOMtv. I think I might switch to Toss, I'm tired of TvP. If I don't win before 10 minutes I lose almost every game. That's just not fun for me.

 

[Overswarm]

All GSL games are on GOMtv. I think I might switch to Toss, I'm tired of TvP. If I don't win before 10 minutes I lose almost every game. That's just not fun for me.

Welcome to ZvT and ZvP.

 

[TheKiest]

^


10 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can look under the help menu and look at unit counters. But I'm pretty sure it's Lings.

Zerglings, tons of em (10 zerglings for the mineral cost of 1 immortal)


Or roaches, remember it's 3.5 roaches for each immortal, as long as you burrow them when they start taking too much damage they'll win.

Mutalisks work great too, as do brood lords cause it can't attack air.

 

[victra♥]

Welcome to ZvT and ZvP.

lololololo

that's great

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, Zerg IS a rushdown species.

 

[rhan]

TvP is simple if you do the 3 racks rine/maud with stim/shells/combat shields/+1 attack/defense.

When I get to a comuter I'll map out the timings of when everything should start. The inital push that would ultimatly cripple Toss if done correctly starts around 7 or 8 min.

It's pretty bad ***.

 

[Zankoku]

I know, right? Heaven forbid toss has a useful gateway unit.

Actually, this is the problem with Force Field. It's such a ridiculously powerful spell that Protoss has to get balanced around having access to it. As a result, correct use of Force Fields alone will make the difference between winning and losing games.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I dont see the problem with any of this

 

[Zankoku]

It's a cascading thing.

- Force Field is an immensely powerful skill, to the point where it dictates the direction of even early engagements when used correctly.
- Force Field is available to the Protoss early on.
- Therefore, the rest of Protoss' early game units were made comparatively weak, if not in overall stats (Stalker) then in cost to produce.
- Protoss' early game units therefore have trouble against other tier 1 attacks.
- Protoss are now given mid-game units (Immortal, Void Ray) that can give a marked advantage, even in small numbers, in early engagements.
- Protoss are also given late-game units (Colossus, High Templar) that are relatively fragile but can immediately turn a battle around.

All this translates to:
If Protoss doesn't use Force Fields well early on, they lose. Once Protoss gets a bunch of their late-game or even mid-game stuff out, they win.

 

[rhan]

Concussive Shells are avalible early on and I would argue that it's much more broke then Force Fields..

 

[Zankoku]

Your call.

 

[Lore]

Zerglings, tons of em (10 zerglings for the mineral cost of 1 immortal)


Or roaches, remember it's 3.5 roaches for each immortal, as long as you burrow them when they start taking too much damage they'll win.

Mutalisks work great too, as do brood lords cause it can't attack air.

Ok, thanks! I used a bunch of Hydras and lings, but next time, I'll just go with a ton of lings.

Should I assume that upgrades are essential to lings being useful?

 

[Sion]

lmao ankoku

<3 forcefields that split armies in half

 

[Nashun]

The toss army is like 600-800 resources bigger in that picture. That's not representative at all.

 

[Zankoku]

7 Marauders - 700 Minerals, 175 Gas
6 Marines - 300 Minerals
Total: 1000 Minerals, 175 Gas

3 Stalkers - 375 Minerals, 150 Gas
2 Zealots - 200 Minerals
5 Sentries - 250 Minerals, 500 Gas
1 Immortal - 250 Minerals, 100 Gas
Total: 1075 Minerals, 750 Gas

Admittedly, Sentries have a pretty high gas cost, but I'm pretty sure the Terrans would've easily taken the fight without force fields, and presence or lack of Concussive Shells would not have made a difference.

 

[Sion]

well, the way i saw it, the initial toss army is 600-800 resources larger, but the forcefields made it so that the toss army ~1250 resources larger than the army trapped within the forcefields

 

[rhan]

I still don't think that Force Fields are imba. They provide a mini advantage but not anything great. If he didn't Force Field that Terran army would have wrecked the Toss army without hesitation. Those Force Fields just made it so that he was able to at least stand a chance. Don't forget that it's harder to Macro and Micro at the same time as Toss cuz there's so much going on and to warp in units they have to be near a power field. Unlike just building units off of hot keys and still be able to watch your army and micro when need be.

 

[Nashun]

As that is the point of the forcefields. Give a terran a ~2000 resource army and protoss a ~2000 resource army without sentries and you'll be surprised at how one-sided that is.

Edit:
I'm not denying that the idea of a forcefield is inherently broken, but you also have to consider that by that same respect MULEs are inherently broken and warpgates are inherently broken and hatcheries are inherently broken.

SC2 breaks a LOT of rules that RTSs before it set up. General RTS theory is very, VERY lightly applied in this game.

 

[Omni]

is it a problem that toss has to rely heavily on force fields early game?

 

[Cynan Machae]

It's a cascading thing.

- Force Field is an immensely powerful skill, to the point where it dictates the direction of even early engagements when used correctly.
- Force Field is available to the Protoss early on.
- Therefore, the rest of Protoss' early game units were made comparatively weak, if not in overall stats (Stalker) then in cost to produce.
- Protoss' early game units therefore have trouble against other tier 1 attacks.
- Protoss are now given mid-game units (Immortal, Void Ray) that can give a marked advantage, even in small numbers, in early engagements.
- Protoss are also given late-game units (Colossus, High Templar) that are relatively fragile but can immediately turn a battle around.

All this translates to:
If Protoss doesn't use Force Fields well early on, they lose. Once Protoss gets a bunch of their late-game or even mid-game stuff out, they win.

Yup was pretty much what I was going to say. Gateways units in themselves are really bad and without sentries you don't have a change to defend any well done early agression. With a few sentries you can defend pretty much anything if you use it well regardless of if your opponent play well or not. Then later a good usage of force fields can win a fight if you use it well, against better odds. The problem is that it relies on good usage of forcefield and there's not much the opponent can do about it except not engaging.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

FFs are broken because they manipulate the opponent's positioning, giving them usage in defensive (block lings from surrounding), offensive (block opponent's ramp while attacking their expo), and combat situations (split their army in half).

One of the best things about BW was that the races were balanced with imbalance, for example think about how strong dark swarm is on paper. Units inside the dark swarm take no damage from (most) ranged units. In practice, they are used to stall the opponent's army from advancing and can be used to assist a push. The other races have comparable zoning abilities such as psi storm and tanks/mines.

In sc2 so far, zerg has no zoning skills, and almost no upgradable skills at all. While I dont think its wrong that FF should be able to be used like it is, I do think it is wrong that zerg doesn't have an ability to apply similar zoning pressure.

I am being really optimistic about this upcoming patch tho. Infestors are clearly underused, but for good reason. I hope this patch can give zerg new options.


edit- if one change to FF would be made, i think duration or size should be it. Defensive abilities like dark swarm are fine to have long durations since its to increase survivability or maintain your positioning, but offensive and combat spells shouldn't disadvantage your opponent for long periods of time especially if they prevent them from disengaging. My only real gripe with FF and how its used now is that any engagement with a protoss has virtually no retreat options which forces you to pick your battles very safely and often times blindly. Dark swarm was ok because zerg had generally the lowest ranged units, but protoss has the longest ranged units so FF is fundimentally too powerful in combination with that.

 

[TheYoster]

FFs are broken because they manipulate the opponent's positioning, giving them usage in defensive (block lings from surrounding), offensive (block opponent's ramp while attacking their expo), and combat situations (split their army in half).

One of the best things about BW was that the races were balanced with imbalance, for example think about how strong dark swarm is on paper. Units inside the dark swarm take no damage from (most) ranged units. In practice, they are used to stall the opponent's army from advancing and can be used to assist a push. The other races have comparable zoning abilities such as psi storm and tanks/mines.

In sc2 so far, zerg has no zoning skills, and almost no upgradable skills at all. While I dont think its wrong that FF should be able to be used like it is, I do think it is wrong that zerg doesn't have an ability to apply similar zoning pressure.

I am being really optimistic about this upcoming patch tho. Infestors are clearly underused, but for good reason. I hope this patch can give zerg new options.


edit- if one change to FF would be made, i think duration or size should be it. Defensive abilities like dark swarm are fine to have long durations since its to increase survivability or maintain your positioning, but offensive and combat spells shouldn't disadvantage your opponent for long periods of time especially if they prevent them from disengaging. My only real gripe with FF and how its used now is that any engagement with a protoss has virtually no retreat options which forces you to pick your battles very safely and often times blindly. Dark swarm was ok because zerg had generally the lowest ranged units, but protoss has the longest ranged units so FF is fundimentally too powerful in combination with that.

when are we going to play?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh right forgot to respond to that. Got caught up in the discussion. I work tomorrow night and i'm planning on attending a smashfest tuesday. If you are on frequently we can probably figure out a time on the fly. Otherwise, wednesday will likely be sc2 oclock for me (in the afternoon)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I still don't think that Force Fields are imba. They provide a mini advantage but not anything great. If he didn't Force Field that Terran army would have wrecked the Toss army without hesitation. Those Force Fields just made it so that he was able to at least stand a chance. Don't forget that it's harder to Macro and Micro at the same time as Toss cuz there's so much going on and to warp in units they have to be near a power field. Unlike just building units off of hot keys and still be able to watch your army and micro when need be.

I can guarantee that that Toss won that battle, and like you said Terran could have stomped that with no FF. That's not a mini advantage.

Welcome to ZvT and ZvP.

Well that's why I don't play Z =p

 

[Overswarm]

As that is the point of the forcefields. Give a terran a ~2000 resource army and protoss a ~2000 resource army without sentries and you'll be surprised at how one-sided that is.

Edit:
I'm not denying that the idea of a forcefield is inherently broken, but you also have to consider that by that same respect MULEs are inherently broken and warpgates are inherently broken and hatcheries are inherently broken.

SC2 breaks a LOT of rules that RTSs before it set up. General RTS theory is very, VERY lightly applied in this game.

Yeah, hatcheries aren't broken. You guys get better economy AND better production until late game. If we focus solely on one thing, we can out-economy or out-produce you early game, but at the sacrifice of the other entirely and neither are strategically viable.

Stupid other races.

 

[rhan]

I can guarantee that that Toss won that battle, and like you said Terran could have stomped that with no FF. That's not a mini advantage.



Well that's why I don't play Z =p

I say mini advantage because even with small groups of Marine and Mauds they can still chip away at the army while still being able to produce more and have them running to the battle. While Toss would have to go find a power field to make more units.

Plus when you get FF you're suppose to run the safe units away from the danger. It's stupid to have the safe ones go down too. :/

 

[Nashun]

Yeah, hatcheries aren't broken. You guys get better economy AND better production until late game. If we focus solely on one thing, we can out-economy or out-produce you early game, but at the sacrifice of the other entirely and neither are strategically viable.

Stupid other races.

Being able to streamline your production into economy or army is a lot stronger than you're making it out to be. Zerg production isn't weak if they streamline their economy at the right time without dying. You don't have to focus SOLELY on economy just to keep up on income, and you don't have to focus SOLELY on army just to keep up on units. You're exaggerating. If you focus solely on income you're going to saturate at least twice the speed as the other races, and other races have to wall in just to be able to defend a possible early game focus on units.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

rhan im sorry but that post was full of fail.

1) toss has to "find a power field"??? how is a macroing toss any different from a macroing terran in terms of getting units to the battle? Assuming you dont have a pylon nearby on the battlefield, you just warp in at your base and rally to the battle.

2) "run the safe units away" duh, who said anything about those ones dying too? the fact that half of your army dies for basically nothing... really strong.

edit- nashun, other races can safely produce constant workers along with only energy wasting boosts to their economy. Zerg gets a limited amount of larva, especially early game, and for example if you made more than 22 drones you straight up die to a 4 gate no matter what because you wont have enough larva to fend off the attack.

 

[rhan]

1 He was pretty much stating that the battle was won on Toss' side and the battle shouldn't have been over then. I'm pretty sure with micro/macro skills there could have been more of an army ready to fight again over that army except this time they wouldn't have FF's.

2 When Toss is Microing it's harder to also Macro at the same time unlike the other races.

3 read the previous post and you would have understood what I was saying.

 

[NyTeStRiDeR]

Yeah, hatcheries aren't broken. You guys get better economy AND better production until late game. If we focus solely on one thing, we can out-economy or out-produce you early game, but at the sacrifice of the other entirely and neither are strategically viable.

Stupid other races.

Zerg is always ahead in workers and in supply in a typical game.They are also the 1st to max out. So i do not see how toss gets better economy as well with production.

If your comparing macro mechanics such as chrono and larva, chrono use is limited by the toss's ability to support their production with their econ. Chrono does not even put toss ahead zerg in worker count. Worker count is only usually higher for toss when zerg is waiting for their 1st hatch to finish and that period in time does not last long.

The use of chronos get worse while the game drags on as u have less things to upgrade. The most beneficial uses of chrono are probably on upgrades and robo/stargate, as the usefulness of chronoing workers grows less throughout the game.

You may use chronos on gateways, but if you are macroing well, you should already be low on resources and chronoing gateways will just put your gateways off sync. Which is why chronoing production is still reliant on economy and why its regarded as the worst of the 3 macro mechanics.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you are making tons of assumptions of players' skills. "good" players wont be making mistakes like that.

1) whats to stop the toss player from disengaging? i dont know how you can straight up assume terran will have reinforcements close enough to catch protoss out of position. How do you know there isn't a pylon right behind the protoss and he has 2 stalkers and a zealot warping in? Talking about that one conflict alone (something we actually have information on) we see the protoss gets pretty far ahead after that battle.

2) "When Toss is Microing it's harder to also Macro at the same time unlike the other races." this is an biased opinion and a player fault. As i said before "good" players won't make such a mistake, or shouldnt.

3) i have read all your posts on this subject, and i stand by the statement that you are making various assumptions.

 

[Nashun]

edit- nashun, other races can safely produce constant workers along with only energy wasting boosts to their economy. Zerg gets a limited amount of larva, especially early game, and for example if you made more than 22 drones you straight up die to a 4 gate no matter what because you wont have enough larva to fend off the attack.

I guarantee you that a zerg player can defend a 4gate (toss's streamlined production of units) and end with a better economy.

Isn't that pretty much the same thing as beating it at both economy and army production?

Edit: And they'll already have their natural hatchery mining rofl

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually thats not really true, zerg simply has a better ability to transition in and out of all-ins better than other races. Zerg has to go all in (pure army and pulling workers to defend) in order to defend.

The issue that I brought up was that if zerg makes 1 drone too many he dies regardless of how much he tries. In PvP if one protoss player does a 21-24 probe 4gate and the other does a 20 probe 4 gate, this will not likely change the outcome of the game, but at most give a slight disadvantage to one player. This disadvantage would likely be negated by being the defender and/or micro and end up on top economically.

Other races can safely and constantly produce workers, safely, while zerg cannot.

 

[Zankoku]

As that is the point of the forcefields. Give a terran a ~2000 resource army and protoss a ~2000 resource army without sentries and you'll be surprised at how one-sided that is.

This is the exact problem I've been emphasizing, though. Force Fields can turn a battle around by such a ridiculous margin that the entire Protoss race has been "balanced" around the fact that Force Field is so potentially game-breaking. It is why Blizzard was completely fine with Protoss' Tier 1/1.5 units being rather weak, and that is why they ended up having to make tech units that can really help out even in small numbers like the Immortal, and that is why said tech units become much much more powerful in the late game, when instead of small numbers, you have a dozen.

 

[Nashun]

This is the exact problem I've been emphasizing, though. Force Fields can turn a battle around by such a ridiculous margin that the entire Protoss race has been "balanced" around the fact that Force Field is so potentially game-breaking. It is why Blizzard was completely fine with Protoss' Tier 1/1.5 units being rather weak, and that is why they ended up having to make tech units that can really help out even in small numbers like the Immortal, and that is why said tech units become much much more powerful in the late game, when instead of small numbers, you have a dozen.

I never disagreed with that point!

I hate it too.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, thanks! I used a bunch of Hydras and lings, but next time, I'll just go with a ton of lings.

Should I assume that upgrades are essential to lings being useful?

The speed upgrade (unless you ambush) and the attack speed upgrade are really useful, but ultimately they just emphasize the fact that you'll get over 2 attacks for each attack the immortal gets and there's a ton more, and they'll eat through his shield mad fast. Frankly, even completely unupgraded a comparable force of zerglings will destroy a comparable force of immortals, it's just a matter of by how much.

 

[Overswarm]

Zerg is always ahead in workers and in supply in a typical game.They are also the 1st to max out. So i do not see how toss gets better economy as well with production.

If your comparing macro mechanics such as chrono and larva, chrono use is limited by the toss's ability to support their production with their econ. Chrono does not even put toss ahead zerg in worker count. Worker count is only usually higher for toss when zerg is waiting for their 1st hatch to finish and that period in time does not last long.

The use of chronos get worse while the game drags on as u have less things to upgrade. The most beneficial uses of chrono are probably on upgrades and robo/stargate, as the usefulness of chronoing workers grows less throughout the game.

You may use chronos on gateways, but if you are macroing well, you should already be low on resources and chronoing gateways will just put your gateways off sync. Which is why chronoing production is still reliant on economy and why its regarded as the worst of the 3 macro mechanics.

Chronoing probes puts your worker production at a higher rate than zergs, all while making units. To beat toss' production, you have to be making nothing but drones from two hatcheries, one with a queen. This is impossible if the toss decides to pressure you at all.

Terran's Mule is basically the equivalent of four probes. Toss need to be four probes ahead to stay even economically with Terran, and this works out naturally for them if they use their early chrono boosts on their nexus. Keep that in mind: protoss can keep up with the economy of terran on equal bases, needing only to stay ahead by four probes for each OC the terran has.

Using constant well-timed chrono on your nexus, It's possible to reach full saturation in 5:38 with constant probe production. This uses 7 chrono boosts. (You'll get another chrono boost immediately after you finished saturating)

Non-chrono boosting results in saturation at 6:48. If you chrono boost non-stop to get full saturation, you get around 415 extra minerals at 6:48.

Now we know that 5:38 is a completely saturated base (minerals).

Protoss can easily continue getting cannons and warp gate in this time. Chrono boosting warp gate instead of your nexus (first CB would be on your nexus) is a cost of 261 minerals that you would otherwise normally have at that time. Heavy, but not huge.

Protoss can't make up for it either; using your 7th and 8th CB on your nexus results in a cost of 243 minerals that you would normally have under constant CBing of your nexus.

Why is this?

Because two workers brings a mineral patch to near saturation. Your first and second worker on each patch will mine at 100% efficiency. Your third on a patch will mine at 20%.

Full saturation is three probes on each mineral patch, but two probes on each mineral patch is nearly as good. The amount you gain for having a third worker on each min patch is only 20% of your actual income per minute. If your IPM is one hundred minerals at two workers per patch, you're only making an extra twenty minerals at three workers per patch, on average. This is why maynarding your workers is so effective. Having 16 per base is much better than having 24 at one and 8 at another.

Note: If the toss is fast expanding, the chrono boost on the nexus after warp gate actually becomes valuable again due to the transfer of probes to the expo

The only way zerg can compete with toss production is to build a hatchery ASAP and not miss any injects.

Every unit made, including our overlords, is a missed drone.

The only "advantage" Zerg has in terms of economy is our ability to get an expansion down at only 350 minerals (300 hatch, 50 drone) instead of 400 (woop) and being able to get more optimal mining numbers (16-20 for minerals per base).

You ever hear zerg players saying "We have to be one base ahead to be even"? That's why. We can't produce workers at the rate that you can early game because we have to build units, and by the time we can produce workers it doesn't even matter anymore because we're only getting a 20% increase by adding an extra 8 drones(400 minerals). The "advantage" zerg has is getting the third hatchery down. That's the big deal for us, getting our third.

Second base? We need that to stay even with your worker/army production.

That's why you see so many protoss four gating and cutting probes. The math works out incredibly in their favor because the whole "you guys can make drones super fast" doesn't mean **** because by the time we can, you're already at at least 16 workers on mins and so are we. Every extra probe doesn't give that much without another base, but because of your pressure we have to spend our drones and larva on spine crawlers, lings, and roaches. The moment you get a second base and start chrono boosting two nexuses we're way behind.

Late game? Yeah, we've got a good thing going for us because we just hit "5" then make larva into drones and fully saturate a base with one round. That's awesome. We just can't ever get there.