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ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
Ankoku, I think you should ask JTB (the OP) if you can take control of the thread so you can update the title and have the most recent tourney stuff on the 1st post. Then get whoever is the mod of the light house to make it so if JTB is agreeable. You make the SC tourney layouts and stuff really pro.

Or if JTB wants to keep it if he can just add your stuff to the OP, and change the title to SC Discussion and Tourney Start date. So we can attract more users to the thread.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
So for like the first time ever(not really) I didn't open with early cloaked banshees in tvt. I no rite?
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
if you mean top 20(rank) in ur division that's silly. The truly best judge of skill. is really to just go by the mmr like Diamond 2,500+ or w/e. the #1 guy in my division only has 1,700. When i've seen people with 3,000+.

Well they adding (added?) Master league and Grand Master league. So now diamond won't feel so undeserving.

I've played against people with 250+APM average (of coures spam at start) but legit mid late game. and got steam rolled by them. Then I played a guy with a average of 65APM in diamond league :\ and I stomped him with an off race.

the skill in diamond is too varianced.

I average 100APM, 80APM(when i play casually usually like this in teams with my low ranked friends), or 110 ish when I feel like defeat is not an option.

I feel like 100apm should be platinum skill.

150+ is diamond ++

75ish Gold

50-60Silver

35-49 Bronze

Somewhere in that ball park.

What do you guys think? (Based on america skill)

please note: I know apm is not a depiction of true skill. As someone with lower apm can beat someone with higher apm. I mean SlayerS_BoXeR averaged like 200 one match he beat NaDa in and NaDa was pumping out like 350+ But it does matter to some degree.
 

rhan

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
6,107
Location
SoVA 757
Funny thing with that.

My AAPM never exceeded higher then 55. But my APM at certian points of a match can go up to 130+. And I beat Zergs that can have their AAPM exceed well over 80. I'm also a Diamond player with 727 points.

So I really don't know what to make of this ranking system.. It's so confusing.
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
My brother wants in on the tourney. He's HELP on smashboards, he doesn't post like ever.

But his account is TyrantTheory 172 Terran

Edit also if it's starting this weekend i'm going to be at FAP2 melee tourney all weekend.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
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My real APM (in real time, not SC2 time) averages 65. This translates to about 42 in replays. APM has little, if any, correlation to division placement. After all, it's not how fast you can move, but what you do with it. Did you know I can jack up my APM to like 500 by holding down a single key at the beginning of the game?
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
My real APM (in real time, not SC2 time) averages 65. This translates to about 42 in replays. APM has little, if any, correlation to division placement. After all, it's not how fast you can move, but what you do with it. Did you know I can jack up my APM to like 500 by holding down a single key at the beginning of the game?
I said this already. Did I not make a clear point in mentioning that it doesn't depict true skill. But by average, i feel that's how it "should" be not what it is. And of course it's what you do with it. I'm just saying someone who averages higher than you. and is making useful moves is probably doing better. I'm just wondering if the statistics would be gathered, what division/rank apm average might look like.

Beginning of the game apm doesn't matter much. Which is why i mentioned that guy spammed at the start to reach that 150ap.m.+ But his mid and late game was all useful 150+ apm or so.
 

JTB

Live for the applause
Premium
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
6,512
ill update the op in a bit, ive been meaning to do so but never got around to it
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
I've actually found that the majority of people I play against on ladder with higher APM than I are in Bronze, where it seems that most silver - gold players do ~ 40, where many bronze players hit 75
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Rules:
Players must remain the race that they entered the tournament with (for example, you must stay Random, even if you random'd Terran first game). Each player first may vote down one map. Next, the higher seeded player selects which map to play on for the first game. The loser of the previous game selects the next map. Maps may NOT be played on more than once in a set. Report match results here.

If one of the two players does not make a post regarding the match or requesting an extension by Sunday, December 12, he automatically forfeits.

Player List:
Ankoku // aisight.334
EnigmaticCam // Camster.635
HeroMystic // HeroMystic.745
Kenrawr // KatyPerry.412
Matt07 // Matt.1330
M@v // Mav.945
Pakman // Pakman.484
rhan // Rhan.667
SCOTU // SCOTU.208
S.O.L.I.D. // Solid.414
Oh. // LadyGaga.997
Sensei Hanzo // SenseiHanzo.445
shanus // shanus.665
ArcNatural // ArcNatural.328
Cynan Machae // Cynan.623
Twig // Twig.511

Map List:
Blistering Sands
Jungle Basin
Scrap Station
Steppes of War
Xel'Naga Caverns
Delta Quadrant
Lost Temple
Metalopolis
Shakuras Plateau



Matches:
Bolded players are the higher seeds in this.
Races are color-coded: Terran Protoss Zerg Random

Losers' Brackets Finals (BEST OF 7)
Kenrawr vs shanus

Grand Finals (BEST OF 7, SECOND SET IF LOSES)
Cynan Machae

7/8 Tiebreakers (Optional, BEST OF 3)
Oh. vs EnigmaticCam

Current Placements
1:
2:
3:
4: Ankoku - 348 Platinum
5: Twig - 564 Diamond
6: M@v - 1761 Diamond
7: Oh. - 710 Diamond
7: EnigmaticCam - 1742 Diamond
9: rhan - 727 Diamond
9: ArcNatural - 1682 Gold
9: Sensei Hanzo - 451 Silver
9: SCOTU - 1377 Silver
13: Pakman - 1748 Platinum
13: Matt07 - 340 Bronze
13: S.O.L.I.D. - 627 Silver
13: HeroMystic - 1837 Platinum
 

Cynan Machae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
342
Location
Montréal, Quebec, Canada
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CynanMachae
APM in no way will show skill; but skilled players will usually show higher apm. There are exceptions of course, InflowMini which sit at the top of the US ladder had an APM of like 90-100, which is really low for the level he's playing at.

An apm around 100-150 can usually do pretty much what is required to play at a pretty decent level if you are using it very well, imo. There always something else that a higher apm would help you to do if you could, tho. My APM is on the lower side of the bell among the level I'm playing it, and I know that it's preventing me from doing a lot of stuff that would be needed in most late game situations.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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Haha. I think most people realize that APM is what comes as a result of needing to do so much at once, not something you need to practice up while you're still in Bronze so you can suicide all your Mutas on a Thor at 300 APM. Personally, I feel that 80 APM is enough to be completely on top of macro in SC2 (compared to needing something like 150 in SC1 to have "acceptable" macro). Anything beyond that can go toward unit micro and multitasking, but it shouldn't be the focus of anyone's practice until they've got the rest of the mechanics down.
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
Yeah you don't "practice" APM by spamming build units and abandoning micro for every bit of small mineral spent. Although sometimes building finger speed can be increased by playing a friendly match where I worry about speed rather than accuracy. Just to increase finger speed. Then you can refocus back to playing correctly.

Sort of like learning to type fast. I remember when I had the class back in middle school. the teach would have sessions where we would type what we see as fast as we can not worrying about errors or back spacing, for a while just to increase speed. These regular sessions increased our overal wpm as class went on even when we tried to make perfect paragraphs/sentences.

But that is for people having speed problems. any shaved off time on an action is more saved time to focus on something more important. If I can make 6 units, spread a tumor, cast spit larvae on both hatches, faster than you, then my micro will be better because I can pay more attention to it.

finger speed practice was something I've done in BW to achieve 180apm. So I was a rough average BW player. moving on to SC2, I can't get 180apm even if I tried hard lol. I know it has something to do with SC2 apm is actually lower than your real apm but w/e.

If you're bronze Silver Gold ect, don't worry about apm. Just worry about being able to multitask with your brain, that will naturally raise your apm. Too many people I've seen in bronze and silver. Will pay full attention to either micro or macro. they never split their attention on it, which another reason their apm is low. Hell my friend who's platinum protoss always has that problem his macro game is grossly good if he's left alone. when I apply pressure though he falls apart cuz he's unable to defend with micro and macro at the same time so often times he'll throw his army on attack move to focus on macro which loses him important battles.

Learning to use hotkeys/macros properly
Learning Build orders, when to use them.
Learning different timings for different strategies.
Learning timings of when it's good to scout.
Knowing how to counter what you scouted out.
applying pressure, while maintaining macro
Unit positioning, and proper micro.

these are all more important than just building speed. Learning all of these will build ur apm naturally. but once you feel you are capable of these things. Then it's time to improve speed so your eyes can be everywhere, and react to things faster.

so yeah speed is the least important thing to train on. It's one of the most important thing to have. but it's not important to train on first. Most of it comes naturally from learning all the other stuff you need to know,
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,115
Location
Chicago, IL
I feel like a big part of APM comes with army positioning and micro. At the top levels of play that's very important and players generally put a lot of APM into a battle, and at the lower levels that's not as big of an issue (or at least it shouldn't be) which is one of the main factors in the APM discrepancy. Certainly not the only one, but one fairly large one.
 
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
UCSD
I know in broodwar I'd average out around 200-250 APM.

But most BW pros have somewhere from 300-450APM, usually higher for Terran and lower for Toss.

I haven't measured myself in SC2 but I'd have to say that it's drastically lower than my BW APM.
 

rhan

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
6,107
Location
SoVA 757
That's because there's a shortcut in SC2.

The miners auto-mine.

If that was cut out the skill gap between players would be larger and APM would be either cut or raised depending on how good you are at the game.
 

JTB

Live for the applause
Premium
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
6,512
could someone post the link to the list of swf players?
 

Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
Im pretty good but i usually only average 110+. I agree with nashun though, since I never play a perfect game
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,165
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Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
God Jinro just got destroyed. A best of 7 being only an hour long? Ew...
 

Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
i know how disappointing

I know MC is good but it has to be because he knows jinros style. That last game was just a straight up blind counter
 
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
UCSD
Whenever I log in I look at my character portrait to see my character code.

Then I play a few games, log out, and do something else and forget the code.

then I'm too lazy to log in just to see what my code is.

rinse and repeat

damnit lol I wanna enter this tournament too
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
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View your profile from battle.net/sc2, then.

For those unfamiliar, you sign up with your character name, character code, and race. Brackets will be seeded based on a combination of your ladder standing and points gained from the previous tournament, though seeding in this case will only determine bracket placement, not map choices.

12 Terran 5 Protoss 11 Zerg 4 Random

  1. Ankoku || aisight.334 || 413 Platinum (allegedly) (+1250) (1663P)
  2. Arrow || Arrow.784 || 1299 Gold
  3. EnigmaticCam || Camster.635 || 1712 Diamond (+750) (2462D)
  4. HELP || TyrantTheory.172 || 164 Platinum (allegedly)
  5. HeroMystic || HeroMystic.745 || 1991 Platinum
  6. Kenrawr || KatyPerry.412 || 613 Diamond (allegedly)
  7. Luigios || Luigios.119 || 1986 Diamond
  8. M@v || Mav.945 || 1763 Diamond (+800) (2563D)
  9. Pakman || Pakman.484 || 1890 Platinum (+250) (1427D)
  10. rhan || rhan.667 || 727 Diamond (allegedly) (+500) (1227D)
  11. SCOTU || SCOTU.208 || 1405 Silver (+500) (1905S)
  12. S.O.L.I.D. || Solid.414 || 627 Silver (+250) (877S)
  13. Candy || Kesha.248 || 1821 Diamond
  14. Nashun || GRITnashun.348 || 2391 Diamond
  15. Scabe || Scabe.112 || 1873 Gold
  16. Sensei Hanzo || SenseiHanzo.445 || 451 Silver (allegedly) (+500) (951S)
  17. shanus || shanus.665 || 1481 Diamond
  18. ArcNatural || ArcNatural.328 || 1682 Gold (+500) (1455P)
  19. ESOJOSE || Screamer.893 || 1860 Diamond
  20. JTB || Vyse.246 || 1288 Diamond
  21. Kira || Ardek.979 || 1134 Diamond
  22. Mogwai || Mogwai.289 || ???
  23. Nujabes || KarmaX.801 || 1045 Silver
  24. Overswarm || Overswarm.197 || 2117 Diamond
  25. Roman. || fycROMAN.268 || 541 Platinum
  26. Squidster || Squidster.404 || 649 Diamond
  27. TheYoster || YellowYoster.807 || 2007 Diamond
  28. Zone || Snafu.141 || 1195 Diamond
  29. Cynan Machae || Cynan.623 || 1659 Diamond
  30. Ether || Ether.609 || 1524 Diamond
  31. Nasty_Nate || NastyNate.922 || 2237 Diamond
  32. Twig || Twig.511 || 564 Diamond (allegedly) (+1000) (1564D)
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
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Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
Glad I avoided both Smashboards and TeamLiquid before watching the series. Good **** to people not being able to use spoiler tags or keep quiet.
 
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