Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[Fortress | Sveet]

And what if he decides to just attack your expo/main with roaches infestors and a few hydras? You literally can't defend, mutas are too costly

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I thought you said he had infestors. How the hell is he affording roach hydra infestor. Anyways your making it sound like mutas are supposed to be a strong army composition. They are meant to be a very strong surprise/timing unit, not a bread and butter unit like the roach or speedling baneling

And Nate, its cool, you can just show me on friday. But I am down for MVC3!!

 

[Nashun]

So you're goign to be able to maek it tomororw?

 

[Zone]

Infestors should only shut down your mutas if you are using them wrong.

when infestors are in their base, harrass their army, and control the map (no overlords, zerglings ect) when infestors are with their army, harrass the base. always magic box them so they have to use 2-4 fungals to get the group in the first place.

and banelings should be burrowed and used in drop form once infestors are out. really they spent the time/money getting infestors and (if they are any good) glands, so you should get drop/speed for a similar time and money investment to keep your banes useful, also if you get air and harrass enough they need hydras then banes as a flanking unit dominate. every single unit has a purpose in ZvZ, even broodlords, except broodlords is pretty much a dead end tech if you can't keep your muta/corruptor alive.

So you are ok with lose 3-4 mutas everytime you get hit with fungal growth? and harrass their army...? Why would I want to attack their army with mutas if they have hydra. It just takes a couple fungal growths and their hydra will be there in no time with creep spread.

again... overlords flying at me.. I fungal grwoth them, good luck flying CLOSER to me while my hydras eat them, not to mention I get to fungal any ground units stacked underneath them in battle. I'll admit burrowed banelings will work but, it should only work like once. After that I would always have a overseer with my army. They aren't as expensive as ravens.


As I said, If you are really good at making it so fungal can only nail like 1-2 mutas. I'd be inclined to agree. But a "magic box" will still get 3-4 fungal'd and if the army is coming you gotta sacrifice those 4. Also burrowed infestors make it hard to know their location. So they could have a infestor with their army, and you said "harrass the army when the infestors are in base" well can you say DOOMED when you see infestors unburrow at their army and nail you.

I DO magic box, I DO know how to avoid fungal growth (I just don't have the apm to have them more spread out than a normal magic box), But i'm not a 200apm pro. I'm a diamond level 90APM average gamer. IMO as far as i've seen MUTAS SUCK @ diamond level(In ZvZ.)

It's so much easier to just play Roach/Hydra/Infestor/Few banes vs Muta/ling/banes

Than it is the other way around. So why work extra hard and increase your chances of failure by a lot just to play different? when you can just clash roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor

(Mid game) There isn't much for a "counter" against roach/hydra/infestor in ZvZ. there is just "this will work alright" pretty much just comes down to composition of the right amount of the 3-5 units (a few banes and lings can be swapped to if indeed necessary.) Mutas and infestors are both gas heavy... but you only need like 2-3 infestors to shut out like 10 mutas imo. losing 2-4 mutas anytime they can hold you still as their army comes to kill a few muta. Also what's to stop the ZErg going Roach/hydra/infestor to burrow hydras at say his mineral line. Who brings overseers with their mutas anyways, and you fly in thinking they have nothing at his base for you to harrass except 1 infestor so you think "I'lll kill that with a magic box real fast...." BAM unburrow hydra.

IMO the only thing Mutalisks give you in ZvZ if you just "show" that you have them. and have them on standby for when their army leaves you run in and keep them in their base for map control. That's it. if they leave behind some infestors it wont' be enough w/o something to help kill the mutas.

I thought you said he had infestors. How the hell is he affording roach hydra infestor. Anyways your making it sound like mutas are supposed to be a strong army composition. They are meant to be a very strong surprise/timing unit, not a bread and butter unit like the roach or speedling baneling

And Nate, its cool, you can just show me on friday. But I am down for MVC3!!

Because roach and hydra are relatively cheap on gas...?

we aren't talking about MASS infestor vs MASS mutalisks. Ok if you use them JUST for timing and try to hit before their lair is just done or finishing so they have little anti air, and stop making them. I could be inclined to agree that could be a good idea. But if that gets shut down by just like him having 2-3 queens and a spore or something. (Alot of ZvZ's will sometimes still be on 1 base even with lair tech because of how hard it is to expand, when the zergs are playing mass aggression against eachother. So most of the time I go muta for that timing they don't have anything else I can harrass to make his queens chase me around lol they can just stay put near their base and I can just try to squeeze in a few drone kills here and there or some overlords and hope i make enough damage to cover making that spire and then swap to something else.


EDIT: Sorry Roman I didn't see your post I thought I said 5pm cst aka (same time tomorrow) yesterday?

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Most likely! Let me know when your down here

 

[_Dice]

So you are ok with lose 3-4 mutas everytime you get hit with fungal growth? and harrass their army...? Why would I want to attack their army with mutas if they have hydra. It just takes a couple fungal growths and their hydra will be there in no time with creep spread.

again... overlords flying at me.. I fungal grwoth them, good luck flying CLOSER to me while my hydras eat them, not to mention I get to fungal any ground units stacked underneath them in battle. I'll admit burrowed banelings will work but, it should only work like once. After that I would always have a overseer with my army. They aren't as expensive as ravens.


As I said, If you are really good at making it so fungal can only nail like 1-2 mutas. I'd be inclined to agree. But a "magic box" will still get 3-4 fungal'd and if the army is coming you gotta sacrifice those 4. Also burrowed infestors make it hard to know their location. So they could have a infestor with their army, and you said "harrass the army when the infestors are in base" well can you say DOOMED when you see infestors unburrow at their army and nail you.

I DO magic box, I DO know how to avoid fungal growth (I just don't have the apm to have them more spread out than a normal magic box), But i'm not a 200apm pro. I'm a diamond level 90APM average gamer. IMO as far as i've seen MUTAS SUCK @ diamond level(In ZvZ.)

It's so much easier to just play Roach/Hydra/Infestor/Few banes vs Muta/ling/banes

Than it is the other way around. So why work extra hard and increase your chances of failure by a lot just to play different? when you can just clash roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor

(Mid game) There isn't much for a "counter" against roach/hydra/infestor in ZvZ. there is just "this will work alright" pretty much just comes down to composition of the right amount of the 3-5 units (a few banes and lings can be swapped to if indeed necessary.) Mutas and infestors are both gas heavy... but you only need like 2-3 infestors to shut out like 10 mutas imo. losing 2-4 mutas anytime they can hold you still as their army comes to kill a few muta. Also what's to stop the ZErg going Roach/hydra/infestor to burrow hydras at say his mineral line. Who brings overseers with their mutas anyways, and you fly in thinking they have nothing at his base for you to harrass except 1 infestor so you think "I'lll kill that with a magic box real fast...." BAM unburrow hydra.

IMO the only thing Mutalisks give you in ZvZ if you just "show" that you have them. and have them on standby for when their army leaves you run in and keep them in their base for map control. That's it. if they leave behind some infestors it wont' be enough w/o something to help kill the mutas.



Because roach and hydra are relatively cheap on gas...?

we aren't talking about MASS infestor vs MASS mutalisks. Ok if you use them JUST for timing and try to hit before their lair is just done or finishing so they have little anti air, and stop making them. I could be inclined to agree that could be a good idea. But if that gets shut down by just like him having 2-3 queens and a spore or something. (Alot of ZvZ's will sometimes still be on 1 base even with lair tech because of how hard it is to expand, when the zergs are playing mass aggression against eachother. So most of the time I go muta for that timing they don't have anything else I can harrass to make his queens chase me around lol they can just stay put near their base and I can just try to squeeze in a few drone kills here and there or some overlords and hope i make enough damage to cover making that spire and then swap to something else.

Well the point of mutalisks isn't damage it's control. for instance, when you have mutalisks you have more vision than your opponent, unless their army is in the map, in which case you can strike in the base ect, sacrificing 300/300 to pull an army back to get spines/defense/a base up is worth it repeatedly especially since the player going mutalisks should be expanding more to take advantage of the excess minerals and much better map sight. it also allows for a broodlord transition in case of things going too long and allows continued protection.

the reason you drop with banes once infestors are out, is that overlords have high health, and you can unload but not load when you are fungal'd meaning they fungal the overlord and then you drop banes, and they have to wait for the banes to all come out or fungal them 1-2 at a time, both of which are bad for them since it's a net gain of 75 energy. the most effective way to beat an infestor supported army without sniping infestors is to remove infestor energy and then commit, preventing fungal from affecting the battle and winning because of the sunk cost in infestors. one way of doing that is to constantly be harrassing so they have to fungal to stop, and then waste energy on overlords ect and then engage. each group of mutalisks costs them about 150-225 energy if they are perfect with the usage (in order to kill the mutas) if they spend less to be thrifty you get away and it's a complete gain for the muta player, if they spend more it's a gain because of the big waste, if they do things perfectly it's an acceptable sacrifice. every fungal used on not your main army is important.

I hope that makes sense. and harrassing a roach hydra army with mutas is easy, since the hydras are slow you only focus on outlying roaches, the only way to protect that wouldbe ball up the roaches and have hydras on the outside (terrible positioning for a ground vs ground fight) or have their infestors defending the army instead of the base. using mutalisks, baneling drops and more to harrass tech structures (infest pit) and drones severely reduces energy levels of infestors allowing the army vs army clash to slowly be swung in your favor, all the while you expand more and control the map again except when their army is out, then you sac a few mutas to harrass the base and stall again.

does this make sense?

and yeah at diamond level using infestors is easier than mutas, but NOT because of APM, i can play a ZvZ with mutas at 60-75 APM and be more effective than an infestor user at the same amount, mutas are about outsmarting the opponent and abusing immobility. which is what you have to focus on when playing ZvZ with mutas. units killed is not the stat you should be judging success on, whether or not his infestors have energy to fungal and the amount of time stalled while you are on more bases is what you should be looking at.

also i wouldn't suggest muta ling bane alone vs that comp, you'd want about 4 corruptors to corrupt infestors/queens to make them take alot more damage as well as patrol to kill overlords and prevent sight and some roaches/spines and be teching to Brood lord/crackling.


EDIT: most Zerg matches are won and lost based on map sight, and when you think about it alot of mistakes are made solely because of that reason, and only allowing yourself to be seeing the whole map gives a definite advantage vs a zerg player.

also i ask does it make sense not to be condescending but because i know sometimes what i type isn't clear.

 

[Zankoku]

I see a whole lot of ZvZs end on the Roach/Bane/Ling stage (or earlier), barely touching on Lair tech.

 

[_Dice]

I see a whole lot of ZvZs end on the Roach/Bane/Ling stage (or earlier), barely touching on Lair tech.

yeah thats a scouting error or mechanical deficiency. the only reason to lose before lair is you didn't scout well, or you didn't produce well, since numbers is almost all that matters at that stage (though going +1 armor in a bane vs bane war is the ideal situation).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats not true. You have to guess quite often, especially in that matchup. You have no way of knowing if the opponent is droning or not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk whats more annoying about 2s... the fact that more than half the players play random or that those random players have no idea how to play their races.

 

[Zone]

Thats not true. You have to guess quite often, especially in that matchup. You have no way of knowing if the opponent is droning or not.

well you sorta do... but it depends how often you're willing to possibly sac an overlord. Or if you can manage to pull their mini wall army of few roaches or lings at the ramp to see his main if there is a hidden army brewing or if there is just drones.

@ankoku
I often hit Lair tech in ZvZ, but it's usually 1 base play lol. Occasionally when I know i'm in a pretty good lead I'll expand and defend and get more ahead. unless I see them. but yeah alot of my ZvZ's end fast. Me vs ALT4 were 2 extremely fast matches.

@Dice
I get your point about the banes coming out 1 at a time from overlord, Dice. that's some pretty nifty thinking. But that just means you're going to have to bypass roaches to hit hydras(with only a few moving in at a time) which most of the time they make it through the roaches to hit hydras because they are in a larger numbers, or hit roaches with them which isn't cost effective.

I guess we could theory craft all day but in the end of the day. At the moment I'm 90% not confident in going muta if I know they have a lair coming up at the same time as well.

by the way, I did mention on the last paragraph aimed at you that the only use i see mutas having is map control because as long as you got mutas out and he knows it. he can't really move out his ENTIRE army. because then you'll swoop ina nd deal damage and he'll need more than 2 infestors to kill mutas magic boxed. But when they are in their base and you are just getting muta, It's a pain in the *** and scary as hell to harrass while they are at their own base, while they have their infestors around and their army not tooooo far away.

just saying your first batch of mutas... if you get fungal'd and lose 3-4... that's half of your first batch and you can't afford losses like that. most of the time I get my "first batch" i have between 5-8 mutas.

I promise.... I know how to use muta and what they are for.

Also... hydras are not that slow... on creep... which is where your harrassing their army if they are any good at spreading it. Also.... it's not hard to keep roaches near your hydras... you act like people just A click... lol most people do haha.... and when I say infestors... I don't mean my opponent is makign like 10 of them guys... Just like 3-4 at most. So... I don't know how you're affording to buy a ton of muta, banelings with drop upgrade, and probably baneling speed. That is a sick amount of gas. I think your mutas + having drop banes is a little later in the game than I ever get to play often. btw. My opponents in ladder usually try to do some kind of 1 base all in-ish attack, once I stop it I'm usually ahead in drone count and I USUALLY end up just rofl stomping them over time. Because since I usually let them attack first, I have the army advantage once they hit me. Same concept on why I build my pool 1 drone later than my opponent

Idk whats more annoying about 2s... the fact that more than half the players play random or that those random players have no idea how to play their races.

Most annoying thing to deal with in 2v2 for me is... the double Zerg 5 minute time push. Roaches + speedlings at a very awkward timing, probably with banes if need be for the guy going speedlings.

and when the zerg player going speedlings does the FE build but spams lings once his pools done instead of drones... it looks like at first glance when they scout you, that you're doing a economy build and your partner (going roach) is doing standard for safety. Then I block my choke with 6 or so lings, and transfer quit a number of drones to my expo, just to make it look like i'm droning up while i'm still spamming zerglings.

I taught my like silver league friend how to roach rush @ 5 mins, and i go ling (sometimes bane depends on opponent.) and now he's diamond 2v2.

It's totally stoppable... it's just really hard lol. even more scary when you try to help your partner better make sure you're walled off.

i always scout @ 9... so random doesn't bother me unless they both get random zerg and they are pulling a 9 pool or something.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zone, mutas were my favorite unit for a very long time. I had a 1 base fast tech build for mutas. I could hold off 1 base all ins, and once i got mutas up i would double expand behind my map control. If I could keep them pinned long enough to gain the upper hand in econ I could then overwhelm them in upgrades/roach/infestor. I stopped doing this once I realized that queens and infestors + minimal spore crawlers defended against this build and left me very vulnerable.

 

[rhan]

Idk whats more annoying about 2s... the fact that more than half the players play random or that those random players have no idea how to play their races.

Why are you playing 2's with randoms anyway?

 

[AltF4]

ZvZ... I feel like it's a coin flip so often. The matchup is on such a razor's edge. If you are even a few lings behind, you can get overrun and lose the game instantly. If even a single baneling gets into your early army, it's gg.

Small advantages mean huge things in ZvZ. If you have an army lead, you can just push and win instantly since there's little defensive capability other than army force and reinforcements. But since it's a mirror match, both attacker and defender gets that. The defender's advantage is all but removed. (Save for an excess of spine crawlers or something) Terrans and Protosses know how deadly a ling run-by is. Now imagine not being able to block your ramp? Dealing with that all game long is ZvZ. You can lose at any moment all game long.

And since zerg can tech switch and build up a huge army quickly, it's hard to judge whether or not you're in danger. Which makes for uninformed decisions, which means lucky wins / losses.

I personally don't like playing the matchup much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why are you playing 2's with randoms anyway?

I enjoy teams a lot, and my usual partners arent always on when i am. Im diamond 2v2 rt

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I prefer 3v3s and 4v4s with randoms a lot more than 2v2s with randoms, but I like 2v2 with someone I know a lot more than 3s and 4s with people I know. It's weird.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Im pretty sure thats how everyone is. More people means skill set more evenly spread. 2s you need to depend on 1 person more

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah but i like 2s in terms of gameplay. The match-ups are really fun and the gameplay doesn't degenerate into mostly 1 basing. 2v2 you can play macro style

 

[Zankoku]

I do plenty of 2/3 basing in 4v4s. 3v3 ladder maps are rather degenerate, though.

 

[_Dice]

Zone well theoretically the zerg with mutas is expanding much faster so they have more lease.

 

[Zone]

Zone well theoretically the zerg with mutas is expanding much faster so they have more lease.

Yeah like I said, I never get far enough in ZvZ to expand past my natural often at all before the game is over. If I'm not, all Zerg players want to cheese me in zvz and I don't blame them. It's a frustrating matchup. Even top pro level Zerg dittos tend to end at mid game latest.

And I realize you are more or less talking about stuff just before late game.

 

[_Dice]

Yeah like I said, I never get far enough in ZvZ to expand past my natural often at all before the game is over. If I'm not, all Zerg players want to cheese me in zvz and I don't blame them. It's a frustrating matchup. Even top pro level Zerg dittos tend to end at mid game latest.

And I realize you are more or less talking about stuff just before late game.

Well the issue with even top level play is there is such a difference in player skill even at the top levels, and thats kind of the reason you see short games in ZvZ, if i cloned you and made you play yourself, you'd get to late game. All I'm in this thread to do is to give advice and explain stuff that you guys may or may not have known.

if you don't see mmid game often of course you won't know what happens after. it's the same issue random players have. i've just played alot more games and a few more even games with people. keep laddering and you'll get up to where you are susposed to be and play more even players.

i'm personally of the opinion that everyone here is underranked for their skill level based on their knowledge of the game and constant playing. but haven't seen your play to be sure

 

[Zankoku]

I disagree that a clone would make it to the late game - if one is weak to early game pressure in the ZvZ matchup, doubling that wouldn't make him any better at defending it.

Also, knowledge and execution are quite different.

 

[_Dice]

I disagree that a clone would make it to the late game - if one is weak to early game pressure in the ZvZ matchup, doubling that wouldn't make him any better at defending it.

Also, knowledge and execution are quite different.

Well i'm a zerg player and pretty much knowledge is more than half of the game for them.

and i think a clone would, because being weak to early pressure in zvz is a macro and scouting issue, something both players would have, and would be fighting with similar armies, which gives a defenders advantage which would allow the game to continue.

it's why nada isn't winning every game right now, he isn't practicing because he is focusing on school so he can't out macro any player in the world.

 

[Zankoku]

Given the amount of APM dedicated to macro alone on Zerg, I find that slightly hard to believe. You have to have a good sense of timings and know how to react on limited information, yes, but because of that it also takes a lot of work to respond in a timely manner.

They would only be fighting with similar armies if they both attacked early...

 

[_Dice]

Given the amount of APM dedicated to macro alone on Zerg, I find that slightly hard to believe. You have to have a good sense of timings and know how to react on limited information, yes, but because of that it also takes a lot of work to respond in a timely manner.

They would only be fighting with similar armies if they both attacked early...

I find that zerg is the least intensive APM-wise with respect to macro.

you can do everything you need to do with macro on 70 APM, where protoss takes 75and terran 80. Zerg is much more intensive mentally, and in terms of other basics of play, scouting, positioning, overall tactics. The top zergs are going to be very intelligent, whether or not they are APM monsters. Look at nestea, his APM is pretty bad for a korean pro, but he is an ungodly zerg mostly due to his intelligence and practice regime. where as a player like MVP, who is known to be not as creative and intelligent as the average pro is a beast at terran macro because of his APM

Zerg macro has this stereotype that it's so difficult, but all the difficulty comes from decision making and thought, and not from the inability of a player to press 1 s dddzzzzvttttvdddvz(hold).

i would challenge any fellow zerg player who feels they have macro down to sit down and macro a terran base, you often find it's difficult to keep up until you get used to it, and even then you can't handle it perfectly like you can zerg, though terran has alot less decisions to make and alot less thought to put into their macro. as terran i can 5aaaaaaaaaaaaaadd6ee7sss for most situations and it's just up to me to keep my 5 hotkey going every 25 seconds, my 6 key every 35 and my 7 every 40. most of terrans thought processes come in when to attack and defend, how far to move to prevent losing the game ect.

 

[Zankoku]

Terran macro always felt pretty natural to me, since it's pretty automatic and doesn't require you to look at your base to keep everything going.

Doesn't Zerg macro involve
- production
- creep spread
- larva injects
of which possibly only production doesn't have as big of a drawback for falling behind on?

While Terran's just got
- production
- MULEs
MULEs are probably the most forgiving macro mechanic of the three races, and production should come naturally to anyone familiar with Brood War or most other RTS games.

I'll admit that Protoss' combination of Warp Gates, Chrono Boost, and buildings that make units normally is a bit tricky to get the hang of.

 

[Zone]

For the record I'm like 9 wins to 1 loss in zvz I can handle early cheese it's just they are the ones that lose because once their rush fails they make even more units for defense while I'm still making more drones the I hit them with a strong timing attack. If I fought myself I believe I'd make it to late game because I'm a defensive player unless my opponent shows weakness from my scouting info

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Terran macro takes the most effort to keep constant production because of how quick infantry builds. When you get up to about 8 barracks, 2 factories and a starport you're making 12 marines, 2 marauders, 2 tanks and 2 medivaks every cycle. At that point it feels like I have time to do 1 or 2 non-production actions before I cycle again. Zerg and protoss are very easy to keep constant production with. Zerg you don't lose build time (larva builds up) and protoss has a decently long cooldown and can be shift clicked.

 

[_Dice]

Terran macro always felt pretty natural to me, since it's pretty automatic and doesn't require you to look at your base to keep everything going.

Doesn't Zerg macro involve
- production
- creep spread
- larva injects
of which possibly only production doesn't have as big of a drawback for falling behind on?

While Terran's just got
- production
- MULEs
MULEs are probably the most forgiving macro mechanic of the three races, and production should come naturally to anyone familiar with Brood War or most other RTS games.

I'll admit that Protoss' combination of Warp Gates, Chrono Boost, and buildings that make units normally is a bit tricky to get the hang of.

zerg production is never constant though, since you aren't making a unit every larva pop, sicne you have to pool and spend to avoid losing. while terran is a constant APM drain, yeah it's not stressful but it's a required amount of apm constantly, which eats into your other actions.

Zerg doesn't take too much APM to do it, it's mostly just doing it at the right time and making the right choices that matters much more.

 

[Zankoku]

I guess I'm better at sustained action than bursts, then.

 

[_Dice]

I guess I'm better at sustained action than bursts, then.

it's much easier mentally for sustained actions, but it does require more actions per minute.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zerg is the least forgiving race to macro with. If you miss an inject you cant make up for it later like chronoboost or mules. If you spend your larva you can't just cancel and start making a different unit. To make up for it, larva can build up so its not necessary to continually build units (waste happens after ~4 injects iirc).

As far as difficulty in preforming, terran has the hardest time. They have the shortest cooldowns and to make up for it their army preforms passively quite well.

Protoss has quite slow cooldowns on unit creation (both on warpgates and robotics) comparatively, and chronoboost is fairly forgiving (there is no "waste" unless you idle past 4 chronos). To compensate, their army is more vulnerable without micro (both positioning and spell casting are important if they are to achieve cost efficiency)

 

[Overswarm]

Thats not true. You have to guess quite often, especially in that matchup. You have no way of knowing if the opponent is droning or not.

Oy. This is idiocy.



Alright guys, ZvZ 101.

First of all:

http://www.sc2ranks.com/c/1985/smashboards/

Bam, mother****ers.


Second:

It's never "guessing". It's "what is possible, and what is the best way to confirm what they are doing and what is the most practical thing to do in the meantime".



Here's a zvz build that will win you a lot of games:

14 hatch
13 pool

Build many slow lings if necessary to defend, and build a few spines while droning. Get gas as soon as pressure comes off and get fast lair while droning.

If he's going one-base, he's going mass roach or muta cheese. Build queens and roaches, win the game.

If he's going two base, make sure you keep up with his tech. Sacrifice an overlord around the 5 or 6 minute mark to check for lair and LOOK AT THE GAS ON HIS GEYSERS. Click the geyser, see how low it is. Lower it is, the more tech and roaches he has. Remember, Z doesn't stockpile gas very often.

Most Z will go two base and spend all their gas on roaches. They'll go +1 roaches or just straight roach, or sometimes roach/speedling.

If that's the case, you have ONE WAY TO NOT DIE after getting your expo up at the same time / faster than him, and that's to not overdrone or get killed by a burrow rush or something of the sort.

That's it.

Solution? With your fast lair, get an overseer. Continually build roaches while building drones, and don't get over 2 drones per mineral patch (16 for mins per base). As long as you're still building roaches at a steady basis along with your drones instead of crossing your fingers and hitting s and holding down d, your income should be fairly close to your opponent's income and your roach count should be HIGHER.

What's more, if your opponent decides to do the "get tons of drones", you can do the EXACT SAME THING instead of rushing him and simply have a bigger army than he does.

Because it takes so long to get two bases saturated, simply "having an expo" doesn't mean anything. All it means is that your opponent has more larva and the potential to drone up. Even if he DOES drone up, it doesn't put you at a disadvantage immediately. It gives you a POTENTIAL disadvantage. If I know my opponent is droning up, I run in with some units and friggin kill some of his drones. Done.

It's really that simple. Is your opponent droning more than you? Kill him.
Is he not droning more than you? Build a defense and enjoy your defender's advantage and make sure to transfuse properly.
Do you not know what he's doing? Find out. You can check with lings, OLs, and overseers. You should know by his unit count. In the meantime, build both drones and roaches.

Once you get to the midgame, get a few infestors and get upgrades as fast as possible. Once you're past 80 supply, upgrades are vital. I just beat a guy that had 200 supply of roaches with my 150 supply roach/infestor army because my roaches were 2-2 and I fungaled the hell out of his units. That's 25 less roaches!

Past that point it's all strategy and timing.


Here's another build order that takes a bit more skill to accomplish:

9 pool
Build 6 lings, build spine in their base (standard rush)
Kill as many drones as possible while droning up yourself.

If they went hatch first, you should be way ahead in drones after the battle.

while the battle is going on, make 2 queens. Block your ramp with them by telling them to hold position. This will stop banelings and lings in large numbers.

When you cna, make a 3rd queen.

Get an extractor and roach warren.

After 4 roaches have been built, you have a decision:

Do you A) build many roaches off a fully saturated base (16 drones on min, 6 on gas) or B) expand and drone up. Which you do depends on what your opponent is doing and the map and whatnot. If it's small like metal, I generally just go and do some damage if I see an opening.

But that's it. That's the build. It stops any fast hatch or at least slows it down considerably, it prevents yuo dying from any 9 pool cheese yourself, and it has the added bonus of making you win the game if your opponent thinks you're super far behind and they try to counter-attack.





TL;DR:

You should know what they're doing based off your scouting, which should be near constant. If you don't know, you should be building both drones and roaches.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

OS im not sure what i spent more time reading, ur post or ur sig. Njoyed both

 

[_Dice]

Pretty much what he wrote with ZvZ in mind, Except don't 14 hatch below platinum. other than that he is telling you how to play standard zvz

 

[Zone]

EDIT nevermind doesn't matter

Roman lets play?

EDIT when is a good time for you?

 

[_Dice]

Well I played my placement match of season 2 on one of my accounts today, got IncontroL (my worst matchup)

in chat:

Me: Well this placement match sucks
Him: lol

later

Me: GG man least i wasn't on your stream.
Him: lol sorry.

T_T
<- got wrecked on incontrol's stream for my only placement match on one of my accounts.

got placed in plat as a result, LOL.

 

[Omni]

OS, I didn't know you were the top ranked Smashboards SC2 player.

Train me!

 

[_Dice]

OS, I didn't know you were the top ranked Smashboards SC2 player.

Train me!

Thats top ranked whose been in the swf chat channel

xD i'm still the top ranked but much less active probably. since i only teach now.

in regards to my previous post, seriously who puts you vs grandmasters in your placement and then drops you to plat. -.- blizzard does.