Stage thread

[kupo15]

With the abundance of lines we will be getting shortly, we can finally customize stages to whatever we want. This means that we can freeze/reverse any stage, we can change the size of certain stages, and even the boundaries of stages. We can possibly make New Pork city viable if we can find a nice portion of it that has a good terrain, set the death boundaries accordingly, and maybe adjust the stage size if the portion is too tiny. We can do so much. So I guess put your thoughts here on what stages we should freeze and what we can do to other stages.

Stages we can change size:
Summit
Picto
Hanon
Great Fox
Rainbow
Fzero??
brinstar
Luigis mansion
Pikmin
Pk stad 1 or 2??
Smashville
????
????
Yoshi's island (brawl)
Bridge

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/modifier/

 

[CT Chia]

in all honesty, dont change anything for them. brawl+ already opens up new stages to being legal, but messing the size wont really change it.

 

[goodoldganon]

Most of the stages are fine as they are. We have a good number of counter picks, neutrals, etc. I know this project's goal is to make the game more competitive, but it still has party game properties we should respect.

Basically, I guess I'd like to see what we consider fine in our current codeset and go from their. Though Deadland's Luigi's Mansion is a must. Possibly lowering the ceiling there too.

 

[The Cape]

Most of the stages are fine as they are. We have a good number of counter picks, neutrals, etc. I know this project's goal is to make the game more competitive, but it still has party game properties we should respect.

QFT.

I would like to see a larger FD and Corneria and thats really all I can think of personally.

Fix the windmill on PS1 if possible as well.

 

[Almas]

A smaller bridge of eldin would make it less of a camp fest. With the moblins off it'd make for an interesting counterpick (CERTAINLY a CP though, because of the distinct lack of an edge game).

 

[shanus]

Larger FD, larger Corneria, and deadlands would be pimp. Also maybe that change to Temple which Leafgreen posted because that area he showed would be pretty sick. Also a fixed spear pillar as well. I think that would be a pretty solid stage list.

 

[Ulevo]

I am really excited for this portion of coding actually, and have a lot of suggestions to make some stages very viable, while keeping the flavor intact to the stage, for the sake of both casual games who like Brawl Plus, to the competitive who want a wider variety of stages.

Bridge Of Eldin

Doomed to failure in my opinion. There is no way to fix this without drastic alterations, and I'd rather avoid that. It's a nice stage to play on casually, not so much for competitive play, so we might as well leave it as is, I feel.

Rumble Falls

I can actually see this being a solid counter pick stage. Currently the problems associated with Rumbe Falls are:

- Players are forced to move with, and thus fight, the stage rather than the opponent
- Large spike kills

I have a lot of experience with this stage, and I feel that if we were to reduce the speed that the stage moves to a reasonable degree, while either removing the spike(s) or severely reducing both damage and knock back to non-KO or threatening standards, we would have a good level to fight on, and most of its integrity would be kept.

Skyworld

This could be a potential neutral if we made just a few alterations, and again, the integrity of the stage would be kept in tact. The problems associated with the stage are as follows:

- Cage of life
- Loop effect
- Stage spikes
- Ledges can break when recovering
- Floor can seal you off if trying to recover through the clouds

Fixing this stage is very simple. Just make the bottom floor solid so it no longer breaks down, and make it so that the other three platforms either A) break exceptionally easy or B) once destroyed, only the clouds remain. I personally like option B the most, and I think it's a fantastic idea. That would fix every problem listed, and it would still have the same feel as before.

Halberd

Bottom line, the only problem with this stage is the hazards, and they need to go. I was watching livestream last night at Nikos house, and Ally and Lain were fighting on Halberd. Lain ending up winning because both of them got caught in the Lazer at the last moment, and both died (Ally losing because he had only one stock while Lain had two). The claw can disrupt the fight very easily, the laser can force you in to situations that cause you to lose a stock (either by giving the opponent the advantage or preventing you from recovering to the stage, which happens a lot), and the bomb is unnecessary. An easy fix is to remove them, and we've fixed a decent stage.

Shadow Moses Island

I'm still up for opinions on this one, as apparently we were supposed to be getting a wall tech fix. With infinites gone now, I see this becoming a viable counter pick really. I don't think it needs alterations. Maybe decrease the time the walls reform so walk offs are not as prominent? That seems like an easy fix to me. This stage is fabulous for characters that KO strictly vertical, or with characters that can emphasize vertical kills. If anyone has other ideas, please shoot them out, but I think the decrease of reformation time is good.

New Pork City

Like Bridge of Eldin, I think without huge alterations that damage the integrity of this stage, it's a miserable failure. Nothing but 75m and Mario Bros compare to the horror that this stage brings to competitive play, and I feel leaving it to be a better option than anything. I don't even enjoy playing on this casually speaking.

Pictochat

I often hear people suggest that this stage be frozen. Why? Freezing this stage would do nothing more but create an alternate Final Destination. As of now, it is a fantastic stage for characters like Falco (no, not just because of lasers) and Kirby, and a few others. They're able to take advantage of the random transformations as they appear. The only problem with this stage is the damaging and potentially lethal transformations, which are as follows:

- Rockets
- Piranha Plant
- Ramp
- Pillar Spikes
- Wall Spikes
- Fire

If I missed one, let me know. Anyways, Rockets deal huge damage, especially considering if you hit one the other will likely send you in to the second one. The Fire is very easy to be knocked in to, does unnecessary damage, and limits your options on properly avoiding it since the only place to escape it is either off stage, or to stay below the fire (where your opponent is). Wall Spikes do not kill you, however they deal decent unnecessary damage and can set up for kills very easily. They can also spawn while recovering off stage and hit the player. And of course, the Piranha Plant, Ramp and Pillar Spikes all KO (specially now that momentum cancel is gone).

Simple solution? Remove these transformations, and you have a hazard free, nice and simplistic counter pick. Still fun casually, and competitively friendly.

Summit

Hm. Summit. I think there is room to make this a counter pick. It has the loop effect, however it is still a small stage and thus it wouldn't be as prominent I would assume. If it were to be changed, the spike would have to be removed. It deals 20% I believe? Also. We could do one of two things. We could freeze the stage so it doesn't move, and apply ledges to the sides. Or, we could allow the stage to slide down the mountain and in to the water, and freeze the stage where the water is below in the basement, allowing for a unique level. I believe the freezing would get rid of the fish too. I think this stage can be saved, but I'm open for other opinions.

Norfair

I hate to say it, because I do like this stage... But those ledges just cause problems. On top of the lava as well. The biggest problems are the lava plumes that come from the distances and pour on top on the map, as they easily KO characters the most, deal high damage, and come in swarms making it very difficult to avoid. The wall can come in at random times allowing for easy KO set ups if knocked in to... And the lava wall that comes in from the distance just slows the match down. The only hazardous part to this level thats relatively okay is the rising lava from the bottom. Even without all the entry hazards here, there is still the problem of stalling ledges here. I don't think this stage can be salvaged, but I've played on it in vBrawl competitively with moderate success, so maybe I'm wrong. What do you guys think?

Mario Circuit

Walk off, done. I have nothing more to say for this stage. As a casual level, it's awesome, and there's nothing else to it.

Frigate Orpheon

The only suggestion I have for this level is to possibly put a ledge on the side, but I am not sure if its necessary. Opinions?

Distant Planet

Okay, a suggestion was made in the public forum (maybe by one of you guys, don't remember who) to keep the rain constant on the hill. I don't think we need to make it so it is necessarily raining all the time, but what if we were to make it so that the moderate water flow was constant, and still had the rain come in at periodic times? We could also add in the bulbin on the side and make it so he doesn't eat people. Although personally I've never been eaten on this stage in a competitive match ever. That's negligible. But the rain would be a very nice addition, and would prevent blast zone camping, and the loop effect, making the stage very playable.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

Err... Yeah. About that.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

See above.

Port Town Aero Dive

Very simple fix. Just decrease both the damage and knock back of the cars, and automatically we have the new and improved mute city from Melee with all its new integrity in tact. We also have awesome F Zero sound tracks to listen to while Kneeing people across the screen with Captain Falcon.

Marios Bros.

Alright, if we remove the ceilings, get rid of the grabs, put ledges on the sides, fly to the moon, make a sandwich, watch the new episode of Naruto Shippuden and make Bowser top tier, I think this stage could be counter pick.

No?

Green Hill Zone

Walk off, that's all I have to say. Fine casually, no need to fix a thing.

Flat Zone 2

Unfortunately, see above. Cool stage though.

Luigis Mansion

Alright. Many people are suggesting that we make this stage dead lands Luigis Mansion. I have to disagree, as it only takes a few attacks and the stage is automatically another Final Destination. Mind you, it's a cool Final Destination, but still defeats the purpose of the stages design, and only serves to make another near duplicate stage (we already have Pictochat for that arguably speaking, and this would be worse). What are the problems associated with this stage?

- Cage of life
- Loop effect

Thats pretty much it. The pillars block projectiles, but, that's more of an added feature than a problem. What I suggest we do, rather than making the stage not reform itself once destroyed, is make it so that if the bottom is attacked, it can be destroyed even with the top still in tact, and thus the whole side of the stage will crumble. This will prevent characters from camping down in the basement indefinitely, especially since attacks can no longer be needlessly spammed down there. It would still have the trait of protecting characters from projectiles temporarily, and it could be used intelligently as a solid counter pick without providing an overwhelming advantage.

Also, if the stage reforming often is an issue, which I don't think it really is, we can also prolong the timer for it.

Spear Pillar

I think this stage can be saved, with some rather big alterations to the Pokemon themselves, and only a minor stage change. If we were to remove the side effects of Cresselia, Palkia and Dialga excluding the ones that destroy the centerpiece of the stage, then we would no longer have a stage with a huge loop effect, and characters couldn't effectively camp in the basement to large extents. Well, potentially they could, I'm just throwing suggestions out here. Leaf suggested we remove the bottom half of the stage as well, which is possible I suppose, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.

Green Greens

Remove the bombs from the blocks. It's already a decent stage now that Dedede's Dthrow CG is gone, amongst other possible infinites, and the only thing holding it back is the bombs that randomly drop and explode upon characters.

Big Blue

I really don't think this can be saved without massive alteration which would ultimately just ruin the stages integrity. It's too big, and with the added hit stun, too easy to kill characters that are thrown on the road. If you want to see what I mean, pick Wario and use Bite and toss them on the road.

75m

Yeah. Right.

Jungle Japes

One thing we could do to help improve this stage is maybe decrease the flow of water to allow characters with less than average recovery to have a better handle here. The croc could also be removed.

Hanenbow

I really don't know what to think here. I'll let you guys deal with this.

Pirate Ship

With the added hit stun, the device that flings you off stage is an auto KO. I'm not sure whether or not that is the case with DI, but half the time it will catch me in situations where I am not expecting to be flung, such as when I am knocked on to it by my opponent, or pushed in to it. In vBrawl it was never a big concern since momentum cancel would prevent death, but with that absent it isn't uncommon to die at 0%. I personally like the visual appeal of the bombs coming from out in the distance, so what if we were to make it so they only landed in the water, and did small damage and and small set knock back? This is definitely a nice stage to fight on, and I think it can be dealt with.

Temple

Much too big, can only be saved by cutting it up or completely resizing the whole thing.

Yoshis Island (Melee)

I don't see a problem with this stage to be honest. Blastzone camping is very hard to do here, since any character that camps on the edge on the hill is more at risk of dying than the approacher, since his options are limited due to the steep angle.

Corneria

I personally miss the old 64 Corneria, so we could make the stage bigger, but that would be competitively pointless really. I think there's no problem with this stage to be honest.

Onett

Eeehhh... Walk off. The only thing I could suggest that could save this stage that would require the least amount of altering would be to put the blastzones closer to the sides of the houses, and increase the size of the stage slightly in order to counter balance that. Otherwise it's not worth saving in my mind.

Brinstar

Solid stage, leave as is.

Rainbow Cruise

Again, solid stage in my opinion.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^What exactly is so broken about walk off stages? Camping blastzones is hardly effective against any character with a projectile (or even just a decent range attack for that matter)

Just curious, since walkoffs were mostly banned because of Fox in melee, and because of DDD/locks in vBrawl. So what exactly makes them so broken in brawl+? I certainly wouldn't want any of them to be neutrals...but what about their merit as counterpicks?

 

[CT Chia]

Just curious, since walkoffs were mostly banned because of Fox in melee, and because of DDD/locks in vBrawl. So what exactly makes them so broken in brawl+? I certainly wouldn't want any of them to be neutrals...but what about their merit as counterpicks?

blast zone camping is meh, but its not bad enough to warrant a ban. for now though i'm holding off on making permanent walk offs legal because of diddy's banana lock, which can still infinite characters across a stage and kill with that.
And I'm sorry I have to bring it up... but... If stages were banned in Melee because Fox could infinite on them (which a technique that somewhat takes skill) and stages in Brawl were banned for DDD being able to infinite off of them, why isn't the ICs infinite banned that is able to be done on all stages? What makes some infinites bad but that one ok? (Sorry I keep bringing it up, but I feel pretty strongly about the issue)


Anyway, awesome post Ulevo. I love the pics from the Dojo you put in there. I kind of disagree with some of your points though. I guess I'll do the same with my thoughts


Bridge Of Eldin

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage05/stage05_070706a-l.jpg[/IMG]

This will never be legal. Even if we deem permanent walk-offs to be ok, this stage is still far too big. I really don't like messing with stage size too much either because then the natural look of it is lost with size comparison to characters. That, and the middle gap can be a big problem for some characters. ROB smiles at it, and Ganondorf can't say anything but f*ck.

Rumble Falls

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage07/stage07_070723a-l.jpg[/IMG]

This really can't be legal at all imo. While some modifications can be made to make it better, with the assortment of solid blocks everywhere some characters like Ness or Lucas with their unique upB absolutely get ***** when trying to keep moving. It's too big, and with continuous movement (even if slow), slow characters get *****. Imagine MK on this stage plz lol.

Skyworld

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage08/stage08_070725a-l.jpg[/IMG]

While theoretically with heavy modification this could become legal, it's not worth the time and codespace. The solid platforms would have to become like standard jump through platforms first of all (making it sorta like Battlefield), and that would make it lose the breakable floor which is the unique aspect of the stage. The platform at the bottom is also pretty broken. Camp camp camp!

Halberd

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage12/stage12_070912a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Don't tough this stage. It's an awesome CP as it is. The hazards are very easy to avoid and see coming. It's great in Brawl, it's still great in Brawl+.

Shadow Moses Island

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage13/stage13_071002a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Noooooooooo. Can not be legal. It has walls to prevent killing horizontally, and an absurdly high ceiling. Even without infinites and stupid wall locks (that still happen in Brawl+), it's like Sakurai wanted everyone to live until 300% on this stage.

New Pork City

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage14/stage14_071015a-l.jpg[/IMG]

There's really no sense in modifying this to make it legal. By selecting a small part, changing blast zones etc, we get a stage similar to a different one that's already legal I'm sure.

Pictochat

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage15/stage15_071022a-l.jpg[/IMG]

If certain phases could indeed be taken out like Ulevo suggested, that would be kind of amazing. CP!

Summit

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage16/stage16_071031a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Fish, loop, ice, water, gravity change. Maybe with some modifications it could be legal which would be nice to see. I'll get back to you on it...

On second thought... freeze it (lol), remove the ice on the bottom floor, and keep everything else and I think it might be ok.

Norfair

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage17/stage17_071109a-l.jpg[/IMG]

It got banned in Brawl for the ledges and extreme camping, but I think it's ok as is for Brawl+. Removing auto sweetspotting makes ledge camping on this stage much tougher and puts the camper in a position where it probably hurts them more than playing defensively safe on the stage.

Mario Circuit

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage19/stage19_071213a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Once I determine if permanent walk offs are ok for stages (read top of this post) I will make my decision for this stage. If perma-offs (as I'm calling them now lol) are legal, then this stage is fine. Awesome CP.

Frigate Orpheon

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage20/stage20_071218a-l.jpg[/IMG]

No changes. Keep as is. Awesome.

Distant Planet

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage22/stage22_080115a-l.jpg[/IMG]

As of now, it's CP. The only change I would like to see is that the rain slope doesn't push you down as fast as it does now. Can it be slowed down a little?

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage23/stage23_080123a-l.jpg[/IMG]

YEA! IT'S FINALLY NEUTRAL!

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage23/stage23_080123d-l.jpg[/IMG]

I love Mario on this stage camping the top and killing people with upB at 0 if I hit it right. So fun!

Port Town Aero Dive

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage24/stage24_080204a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Can't be legal. Even if the knockback and stuff was decreased for cars and maybe walls, there are still sections of this stage that are way too big that no one will fight on while waiting. Also, even if cars don't do much damage, come on, they have like no warning of coming. Not fair at all. BANNED!

Marios Bros.

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage26/stage26_080212a-l.jpg[/IMG]

2D Crabs are full of win.

Green Hill Zone

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage27/stage27_080214a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Can it be made that no lampposts pop up? I don't want the stage frozen as I still like the breakable ground. If lamp posts were removed I think it might be ok for CP.

Flat Zone 2

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage31/stage31_080311a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Nooooooooooo.

Luigis Mansion

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage28/stage28_080218a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Unfortunately, nothing can save it. Banned banned banned.

Spear Pillar

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage29/stage29_080229a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Can't be saved. No matter what there's a loop effect. There are two ledges on each side like Norfair, but different from Norfair is that they are far apart from each other making it much easier to camp them especially with a tether recovery a la Olimar, Ivysaur, and ZSS.

Green Greens

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage32/stage32_080313c-l.jpg[/IMG]

I think it could be CP as is. It's pretty much like it was in Melee now. Bombs aren't too big of a deal. DDD cg is out. Yay!

Big Blue

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage32/stage32_080313j-l.jpg[/IMG]

Nope!

75m

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage30/stage30_080304a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Yeaaaaa!

Jungle Japes

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage32/stage32_080313a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Don't change. I'm callin' it CP now. As for what Ulevo said about making the water slower, I was worried about this at first but I read some stuff about the stage and found out a good tactic for recovery. When your being thrust to the left from the water, everyone naturally tries to jump to their right. Guess what, they die. When you jump right, the momentum you had from the water going left makes your right jump unusually slow and not all that much too the right. Unless your character has a very fast jump animation and upB, you won't live. Instead, jump to your LEFT, the momentum from the water gives you a nice generous jump in this direction, then when in the air you double jump to your right and upB back to safety.

Hanenbow

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage33/stage33_080326a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Can't be saved. Unless we made it 3D!!!!!!!!!!!

Pirate Ship

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage34/stage34_080401a-l.jpg[/IMG]

Banned. Water camping is terrible. Flinger is terrible. Bombs are terrible. Gravity change is terrible. Even if it was frozen, water camping is still there.

Temple

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage18/stage18_071130b-l.jpg[/IMG]

Why cut it down to attempt to make it legal? Makes no sense.

Yoshis Island (Melee)

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage21/stage21_080107a-l.jpg[/IMG]

This stage is fine as it is now, but I request that two things be changed. Make blocks spin around for a little longer so they don't become solid too soon. Make it like 1.25x - 1.5x as long for being not-solid. Then find a way to fix the thing with Toon Link's insane first hit of his dsmash. If you're hit with the first hit of it but not the second, you have an INSANE amount of knockback (and now hitstun) to guarantee at 0. The only real way to get only a first hit off is to use it on a certain slope that mainly occurs on two stages: Corneria and this stage.

Corneria

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage21/stage21_080107c-l.jpg[/IMG]

No need to be bigger. Keep as is, awesome cp now.

Onett

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage21/stage21_080107e-l.jpg[/IMG]

I'm on the fence about whether to make this stage legal or not in Brawl+, but have been leaning more towards legal. No modifications could change my stance on it though.

Brinstar

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage21/stage21_080107g-l.jpg[/IMG]

*Thumbs up*

Rainbow Cruise

[IMG]http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/images/stage21/stage21_080107i-l.jpg[/IMG]

It's good.

 

[kupo15]

Corneria definitely needs to be much much bigger.

Spear pillar would require two changes:
Set the bottom blast zone just above the floor of the cave
Freeze the stage

New Pork City can be saved though:
Freeze stage
Set the blastzones around the top left portion. The bottm blast would be just above the platfor below it.
It might be small in which we could increase it if that can be increased in the future

YI (melee)
I think this stage needs to be slightly bigger

 

[Ulevo]

^^What exactly is so broken about walk off stages? Camping blastzones is hardly effective against any character with a projectile (or even just a decent range attack for that matter)

Just curious, since walkoffs were mostly banned because of Fox in melee, and because of DDD/locks in vBrawl. So what exactly makes them so broken in brawl+? I certainly wouldn't want any of them to be neutrals...but what about their merit as counterpicks?

Not every character has access to a projectile, and not every character can be effected by projectiles. Not only that, but you're not considering the fact that the camping character may in turn have a projectile themselves, potentially ever a better one.

Walk offs were not banned strictly due to Fox's waveshine. If you believe so, they quite frankly I don't believe you really know what you're talking about. Low % kills are very easy by just staying near the blastzone.

 

[goodoldganon]

Why do we need to use Spear Pillar? Once again, we don't need every stage tourney viable. It's a perfectly good lolz stage. Personally, I don't care too much since I can actually figure out how to turn codes on and off, but other more casual players not so much. There are plenty of people, myself included, that still love Brawls party aspects as well as the new competitive side.

Either way, I think Corneria is fine as is. The low ceiling makes it a good CP. I don't want to derail this thread from it's original purpose, but have we even come up with a concrete list of stages that we agree are good? I know we have had a lot of debates about Halberd, Delfino, and Pictochat for example.

 

[Ulevo]

And I'm sorry I have to bring it up... but... If stages were banned in Melee because Fox could infinite on them (which a technique that somewhat takes skill) and stages in Brawl were banned for DDD being able to infinite off of them, why isn't the ICs infinite banned that is able to be done on all stages? What makes some infinites bad but that one ok? (Sorry I keep bringing it up, but I feel pretty strongly about the issue)

Because it is a fault of the stages design, not the technique at hand. If waveshining in question was banned, you may have a remotely valid point, but waveshining was never dismissed. And in fact, if those stages were in fact perfectly viable except for the waveshines inclusion, waveshining as a technique would be banned. This only furthers my point.

Fox's waveshine was not broken on any level excluding walk offs, because it actually ended, and needed a stage as a requirement.

Ice Climbers CG's were not banned and won't be banned because they needed to have both Nana and Popo together once a grab was successfu (if successful), have Nana alive, and be desync, as well as have no interruptions from the stage in order to continue the infinite.

Although King Dedede's CG was never banned, the infinite in question is widely banned because it requires no condition other than to grab the opponent, which is exceptionally easy for the character with the best grab range in the game, and next to no shield stun at all.

Rumble Falls

This really can't be legal at all imo. While some modifications can be made to make it better, with the assortment of solid blocks everywhere some characters like Ness or Lucas with their unique upB absolutely get ***** when trying to keep moving. It's too big, and with continuous movement (even if slow), slow characters get *****. Imagine MK on this stage plz lol.

I disagree with this statement.

Currently right now I do not feel any characters struggle to move with this stage any more than they do with Rainbow Cruise, a perfectly legal counter pick. I also opted that we decrease the speed here, so that characters that may have difficulties with mobility here, such as Ness and Lucas (although I believe that to be highly debatable), will be able to function here properly. If needed, I can post some matches later.

I feel the major hinderance to this stages potential is the spike. Meta Knight is fine on this stage, I assure you.

Skyworld

While theoretically with heavy modification this could become legal, it's not worth the time and codespace.

Chibo, it states in the opening post that we are discussing these stage changes because of the code space we will have access to in the future.

The solid platforms would have to become like standard jump through platforms first of all (making it sorta like Battlefield), and that would make it lose the breakable floor which is the unique aspect of the stage. The platform at the bottom is also pretty broken. Camp camp camp!

Um... Did you read what I posted? I stated clearly that we can remove the function to have the top three platforms reform, so that the clouds remain after they are broken. That keeps the unique aspect while making the stage playable. And if I recall, correct me if I am wrong, but the bottom platform leaves the map after a period of time. Not to mention you can't camp down there... You can just stall, which again is moot if what I believe is correct. Even so, we could remove that.

Halberd

Don't tough this stage. It's an awesome CP as it is. The hazards are very easy to avoid and see coming. It's great in Brawl, it's still great in Brawl+.

Chibo, I saw Ally lose on Halberd last night with my own two eyes, strictly because of the laser on this level. I have personally witnessed people in tournament lose because they're trying to recover back to the stage, and the laser spawns on the edge. The claw disrupts matches. And if we're removing two of the three, why leave the bomb.

Yes, there are things wrong with it.

Shadow Moses Island

Noooooooooo. Can not be legal. It has walls to prevent killing horizontally, and an absurdly high ceiling. Even without infinites and stupid wall locks (that still happen in Brawl+), it's like Sakurai wanted everyone to live until 300% on this stage.

This is arguable, and I don't feel the fact that killing strictly vertically is an issue. Every character has at least one decent option to kill upwards that they can use, and that is what makes this a proper counter pick.

If you have some wall lock examples that are easy to set up and abuse, I'd like to hear them.

Summit

Fish, loop, ice, water, gravity change. Maybe with some modifications it could be legal which would be nice to see. I'll get back to you on it...

On second thought... freeze it (lol), remove the ice on the bottom floor, and keep everything else and I think it might be ok.

Removing ice on the bottom floor is like removing one of its main qualities. There is no other stage with ice except for PS2, which is frozen and temporary. It's an option, just not one I'd like to see used.

Norfair

It got banned in Brawl for the ledges and extreme camping, but I think it's ok as is for Brawl+. Removing auto sweetspotting makes ledge camping on this stage much tougher and puts the camper in a position where it probably hurts them more than playing defensively safe on the stage.

Again there is still the issue that the lava causes for matches.

Distant Planet

As of now, it's CP. The only change I would like to see is that the rain slope doesn't push you down as fast as it does now. Can it be slowed down a little?

Well, that wouldn't be bad. I think the main important focus is to ensure the rain stays there, because as is, its too easy to just drop below the platform, catch the ledge and run up to stall for time. Water would help prevent this. And blastzone camping.

Port Town Aero Dive

Can't be legal. Even if the knockback and stuff was decreased for cars and maybe walls, there are still sections of this stage that are way too big that no one will fight on while waiting. Also, even if cars don't do much damage, come on, they have like no warning of coming. Not fair at all. BANNED!

This stage is literally the revolutionized mute city with the exception of the cars that kill you. I see no reason why this can't be counterpick if Mute City in Melee was counterpick, if we remove the one quality that separates it. And the cars don't come in randomly.

Green Hill Zone

Can it be made that no lampposts pop up? I don't want the stage frozen as I still like the breakable ground. If lamp posts were removed I think it might be ok for CP.

In theory, sure, but this all comes to the walk off issue.

Luigis Mansion

Unfortunately, nothing can save it. Banned banned banned.

Explain how my suggestion solution, or even deadlands Luigis Mansion doesn't solve this problem?

Spear Pillar

Can't be saved. No matter what there's a loop effect. There are two ledges on each side like Norfair, but different from Norfair is that they are far apart from each other making it much easier to camp them especially with a tether recovery a la Olimar, Ivysaur, and ZSS.

You may have a point in that regard.

Green Greens

I think it could be CP as is. It's pretty much like it was in Melee now. Bombs aren't too big of a deal. DDD cg is out. Yay!

A bomb falling on you while you're hoping over the blocks and killing you randomly? I'd say that is a pretty big deal. Not to mention players can dangerously camp here and explode the bombs if the opponent gets too close.

Jungle Japes

Don't change. I'm callin' it CP now. As for what Ulevo said about making the water slower, I was worried about this at first but I read some stuff about the stage and found out a good tactic for recovery. When your being thrust to the left from the water, everyone naturally tries to jump to their right. Guess what, they die. When you jump right, the momentum you had from the water going left makes your right jump unusually slow and not all that much too the right. Unless your character has a very fast jump animation and upB, you won't live. Instead, jump to your LEFT, the momentum from the water gives you a nice generous jump in this direction, then when in the air you double jump to your right and upB back to safety.

I will test this out later. Thank you.

Pirate Ship

Banned. Water camping is terrible. Flinger is terrible. Bombs are terrible. Gravity change is terrible. Even if it was frozen, water camping is still there.

Considering the fact that the stage changes, and we could potentially have the bombs shoot in the water only, I don't see this as a major problem.

Yoshis Island (Melee)

This stage is fine as it is now, but I request that two things be changed. Make blocks spin around for a little longer so they don't become solid too soon. Make it like 1.25x - 1.5x as long for being not-solid. Then find a way to fix the thing with Toon Link's insane first hit of his dsmash. If you're hit with the first hit of it but not the second, you have an INSANE amount of knockback (and now hitstun) to guarantee at 0. The only real way to get only a first hit off is to use it on a certain slope that mainly occurs on two stages: Corneria and this stage.

There are a multitude of stages this can be used on Chibo, not just the ones you mentioned. Besides, Toon Links DSmash has pretty poor range as it is.

 

[leafgreen386]

First off... I say we should be going to whatever extents are necessary in order to make banned stages playable. I don't really care about the integrity of the stage. If we want to take rumble falls, freeze it, cut off a certain portion of it, and enlarge that to make a normal neutral stage... then so be it. If a casual doesn't like it, they don't need to play with the code on. Simple as that, really.

Now...

My suggestions for temple, new pork city, and spear pillar: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6849831&postcount=21

I mention a few other things in that post that I still stand by. Also, since it's been a while since I've done a review on what to do with stages... I'm gonna redo that here.

List is taken from a (possibly outdated?) vbrawl stage legality list. You've probably seen a lot of these stage suggestions before, but there are some that I have since changed my views on, either because of a different point of view or simply because of new possibilities on what we could do with the stage.

- Starter -

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter summary: I put this group here just for the sake of completion. None of these stages need anything done to them.



- Starter/Counter -

Castle Siege - If spunit's sub-ID code works out, we could potentially get three or four legal stages out of this one stage (the second form is questionable because of the walk-off). It would be even better if while the stage was on random, it would automatically select the first sub-ID instead of loading the regular stage, as I think that the first form is perfectly viable for a neutral stage.

Delfino - I say we just speed up the lag you have in the water so you can act sooner when you reach the surface. This would of course apply to all water stages. Otherwise, this is a fine stage.

Halberd - I had a rant here before about how freezing it sucks, but you all already know that. I do think we need to remove all of the hazards.

Lylat Cruise - We thought about freezing this one before... ultimately, the way it starts is random, so you're never actually guaranteed to get the perfectly flat version. Leave it alone. Actually, maybe just a code to make it so it doesn't tilt.

Pokémon Stadium 1 - What I thought before: LET'S HAVE TWO COPIES OF ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME STAGE EXCEPT ONE WITH WORSE LEDGES YAY! This stage is fine. Yeah, the windmill sucks. So? Leave it as is. It might be possible to get a code to turn the windmill into platforms instead of "base stage," but it'd probably be pretty costly in lines if it's even possible. This stage should really just stay as is. What I think now: Fixing the windmill might be nice, but I don't consider it a priority.

Starter/Counter summary: Sub-ID selector for Castle Siege (the first form on random). Reduce lag in water for Delfino. Remove hazards from Halberd. Stop tilting on Lylat Cruise. Make Pokemon Stadium 1 windmill like a normal platform.



- Counter -

Brinstar - Good CP.

Corneria - All melee stages need to be slightly bigger, though this one in particular needs the boost. Actually I'd argue that all stages except a select few could be slightly bigger, but whatever. Otherwise this stage is good.

Distant Planet - Having the water flow infinitely would be awesome. Definitely would be better if it was slower, though, so that it would only stop you from going over there, instead of being downright dangerous to be hit there.

Frigate Orpheon - What's wrong with this stage? Leave it be. Who cares if this can be made into a neutral with a special code... it's unique and should be kept as is. That also means leaving the missing ledge.

Green Hill Zone - It obviously needs the checkpoints to be removed. Whether we deal with the breakaway floor or not is up for debate, which would obviously be decided after we decide if walk-offs need to be auto-banned.

Jungle Japes - Kill the klap-trap, and maybe slow down the water. This stage would also be impacted by reducing water lag.

Luigi's Mansion - I really like the idea of the deadlands code here. Although I guess I could see just making it easier to break. The loop and cave of life here are just ridiculous.

Norfair - Hazards never added anything to this level (unless you consider getting in the way to be "adding" to the level), and I must admit I do like the platform layout. I might be a bit biased on this, but I'd like to try removing all hazards besides the rising lava. It's an insanely cool stage, but if the ledges prove to be too much of a problem, then I guess I'll have to say good-bye to this one.

Pictochat - People always talk about freezing this one, and for all the wrong reasons. If you're going to counterpick this stage, you're doing it because of the hazards. Not in spite of them. That said, the hazards do need to be removed and/or tuned down, since atm most either kill you or deal a lot of unnecessary damage.

Pirate Ship - Remove the bombs and the catapult. Done. This stage would also receive the benefit of reduced water lag.

Pokémon Stadium 2 - Yay for freezes.

Rainbow Cruise -A fine CP.

Yoshi's Island (Pipes) - Meh. Dunno what to think on this one.

Counter summary: Continuous water on Distant Planet. Remove checkpoints on Green Hill Zone and also possibly the breakaway floor. Remove the klap-trap from Jungle Japes and possibly slow down the water (plus reduced water lag). Either deadlands Luigi's Mansion or make it WAY easier to break. Remove all hazards from Norfair besides the rising lava. Remove and/or tone down Pictochat hazards. Remove bombs and catapult from Pirate Ship (plus reduced water lag).




- Counter/Banned -

Green Greens - I would actually argue to just freeze this. The only problem would be the bombs at the start, although you could also use an additional code that would stop bombs from spawning.

Mario Circuit - If we deem walk-offs acceptable, then this is fine as is.

Onett - Don't freeze this. It makes the level suck. The van does set knockback fyi, so you should never be KO'd by it. The biggest complaint about this level appears to actually be the sides, which if we deem necessary we can move the boundaries closer to help deal with.

Port Town Aero Dive - Remove the cars. Don't weaken them. Just flat-out remove them. This would be an amazing counterpick if you did that.

Skyworld - Eh... I don't think this one is fixable. If it is possible to make the bottom blocks unbreakable (or actually, just plain unhittable would be best) while making the top blocks never come back if they get broken then it might be viable. Otherwise... no.

Counter/Banned summary: Green Greens might be a target for freezing (and possible an extra code to fix the block problem). We almost definitely want a code that kills the cars on Port Town. Possibly move the boundaries in on Onett. If it's possible, make the platform blocks on Skyworld stay broken and make the main stage blocks never break.



Banned

75m - lol

Big Blue - Spunit recommended trying this stage at half speed. I think that might be something worth looking at.

Bridge of Eldin - If we deem walk-offs acceptable, then we can kill the moblin and possibly reduce the stage size if we deem that necessary.

Flat Zone 2 - If we deem walk-offs acceptable, then this just needs a freeze.

Hanenbow - no

Hyrule Temple - Like I said before, cut off a section and this would be a cool counterpick.

Mario Bros - YES THIS STAGE WOULD BE SO AWESOME! If we could remove the enemies, remove the platforms, add new platforms in that you can jump through, give it ledges, and basically turn it into a completely different stage.

Mushroomy Kingdom I - Until I saw the pic Ulevo posted of this stage I had forgotten what the first screen of this stage even looks like. Doesn't look like we could freeze it even if walk-offs were accepted.

Mushroomy Kingdom II - No.

New Pork City - I think we can cut out a part of this stage to make it playable, and is something I'd like to look into.

Rumble Falls - This is gonna require one weird fix. Freeze it, crop it, and then increase the stage size for the area you cropped. We might be able to get a playable stage out of it like this.

Shadow Moses - Eh... Even vertical KOs are bad, here. Just DI into the hugenormous walls and tech. It's near impossible to kill someone if you're not near the center and on the top platform.

Spear Pillar - Cut off the bottom (just above the ground of the cave) and freeze it. Neutral stage. Done.

The Summit - Sub-stage select for the water part of this level, which we can then freeze to get rid of the fish.

Wario Ware - I love the level freezer.

Banned summary: Big Blue might work if we run it at half speed. Temple, New Pork City, and Rumble Falls could all be playable with some serious stage manipulation with the boundary mod and stage size mod. Maybe freeze Flat Zone 2. Obviously freeze Warioware. Bridge of Eldin might be viable with the no bomb drop code and a possible reduction in stage size. Spear Pillar would be neutral if we cut off the bottom and froze it. Sub-ID select for Summit could make it CP, as well.



And that's all the stages. If that was too tl;dr for you, here's a quick C/P of all my summaries for each section.

All summaries:

Starter summary: I put this group here just for the sake of completion. None of these stages need anything done to them.

Starter/Counter summary: Sub-ID selector for Castle Siege (the first form on random). Reduce lag in water for Delfino. Remove hazards from Halberd. Stop tilting on Lylat Cruise. Make Pokemon Stadium 1 windmill like a normal platform.

Counter summary: Continuous water on Distant Planet. Remove checkpoints on Green Hill Zone and also possibly the breakaway floor. Remove the klap-trap from Jungle Japes and possibly slow down the water (plus reduced water lag). Either deadlands Luigi's Mansion or make it WAY easier to break. Remove all hazards from Norfair besides the rising lava. Remove and/or tone down Pictochat hazards. Remove bombs and catapult from Pirate Ship (plus reduced water lag).

Counter/Banned summary: Green Greens might be a target for freezing (and possible an extra code to fix the block problem). We almost definitely want a code that kills the cars on Port Town. Possibly move the boundaries in on Onett. If it's possible, make the platform blocks on Skyworld stay broken and make the main stage blocks never break.

Banned summary: Big Blue might work if we run it at half speed. Temple, New Pork City, and Rumble Falls could all be playable with some serious stage manipulation with the boundary mod and stage size mod. Maybe freeze Flat Zone 2. Obviously freeze Warioware. Bridge of Eldin might be viable with the no bomb drop code and a possible reduction in stage size. Spear Pillar would be neutral if we cut off the bottom and froze it. Sub-ID select for Summit could make it CP, as well.

 

[Ulevo]

My suggestions for temple, new pork city, and spear pillar: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6849831&postcount=21

I would like to request that if we are going to follow this idea for Spear Pillar that we take we leave in the Pokemon and just freeze them. They're part of what makes the stage unique, and I'd like to keep them there provided they don't pose as hazards.

- Starter/Counter -

Castle Siege - If spunit's sub-ID code works out, we could potentially get three or four legal stages out of this one stage (the second form is questionable because of the walk-off). It would be even better if while the stage was on random, it would automatically select the first sub-ID instead of loading the regular stage, as I think that the first form is perfectly viable for a neutral stage.

I really see nothing to be done to Castle Siege. Is quite playable as it is now, the walk offs are all temporary, and very easy to avoid for the time they're present. No different than Deflino Plaza. This stage is 100% perfect in my eyes.

Delfino - I say we just speed up the lag you have in the water so you can act sooner when you reach the surface. This would of course apply to all water stages. Otherwise, this is a fine stage.

That's actually not too bad of an idea. Of course, I'd have to give it more thought, and I don't think it's really relevant to the specified stage at hand so much as swimming with characters, but never the less this stage is also 100% fine.

Halberd - I had a rant here before about how freezing it sucks, but you all already know that. I do think we need to remove all of the hazards.

I'm kind of tired of dying on this stage when I can't prevent it to be honest. The fact that you can fly through the bottom and its low ceiling make it an ideal counter pick option. Then you die from the entry hazards.

Lylat Cruise - We thought about freezing this one before... ultimately, the way it starts is random, so you're never actually guaranteed to get the perfectly flat version. Leave it alone. Actually, maybe just a code to make it so it doesn't tilt.

The tilting is a part of the stage, and isn't hazardous-- it merely changes up how the game is played in slight variations. I see this stage as 100% fine.

Pokémon Stadium 1 - What I thought before: LET'S HAVE TWO COPIES OF ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME STAGE EXCEPT ONE WITH WORSE LEDGES YAY! This stage is fine. Yeah, the windmill sucks. So? Leave it as is. It might be possible to get a code to turn the windmill into platforms instead of "base stage," but it'd probably be pretty costly in lines if it's even possible. This stage should really just stay as is. What I think now: Fixing the windmill might be nice, but I don't consider it a priority.

I agree here. I don't think the Windmill is a huge problem. Although, that said, I don't think it will be a major deal to make it fall through again either.

Corneria - All melee stages need to be slightly bigger, though this one in particular needs the boost. Actually I'd argue that all stages except a select few could be slightly bigger, but whatever. Otherwise this stage is good.

The one thing that concerns me on making stages larger is the camping issue. Especially now that we're making characters faster.

Frigate Orpheon - What's wrong with this stage? Leave it be. Who cares if this can be made into a neutral with a special code... it's unique and should be kept as is. That also means leaving the missing ledge.

I'm fine with that.

Jungle Japes - Kill the klap-trap, and maybe slow down the water. This stage would also be impacted by reducing water lag.

Water lag reduction seems more appealing the way I look at it.

Luigi's Mansion - I really like the idea of the deadlands code here. Although I guess I could see just making it easier to break. The loop and cave of life here are just ridiculous.

The whole point of a counterpick is to provide the advantage to previous player who lost. That said, turning this stage in to an F.D. after breaking the walls once doesn't seem to really maintain its unique features. The only reason the cave of life works so well in here is because the bottom pillars can't be broken until the top ones are.

Pictochat - People always talk about freezing this one, and for all the wrong reasons. If you're going to counterpick this stage, you're doing it because of the hazards. Not in spite of them. That said, the hazards do need to be removed and/or tuned down, since atm most either kill you or deal a lot of unnecessary damage.

I hope by "because of the hazards" you actually mean "because of the transformations". It's rather difficult to counterpick hazards.

Pirate Ship - Remove the bombs and the catapult. Done. This stage would also receive the benefit of reduced water lag.

Again with that water reduction.

Green Greens - I would actually argue to just freeze this. The only problem would be the bombs at the start, although you could also use an additional code that would stop bombs from spawning.

Like you previously emphasized with Frigate Orpheon, the blocks here are what keep the stage unique from other maps. The bombs are the only problem with this stage, and while freezing it removes them, it also takes away its unique trait.

Onett - Don't freeze this. It makes the level suck. The van does set knockback fyi, so you should never be KO'd by it. The biggest complaint about this level appears to actually be the sides, which if we deem necessary we can move the boundaries closer to help deal with.

I would agree with closer blastzones and an increase in stage size.

Port Town Aero Dive - Remove the cars. Don't weaken them. Just flat-out remove them. This would be an amazing counterpick if you did that.

Meh... We could. I'd still like to keep the stage as close to the original as possible. Still, it's a possibility.

Mario Bros - YES THIS STAGE WOULD BE SO AWESOME! If we could remove the enemies, remove the platforms, add new platforms in that you can jump through, give it ledges, and basically turn it into a completely different stage.

See, I told you. This stage is totally fixable.

Rumble Falls - This is gonna require one weird fix. Freeze it, crop it, and then increase the stage size for the area you cropped. We might be able to get a playable stage out of it like this.

Again, this stage is unique for the fact that it moves upwards. A simple speed reduction is all it needs, along with the removal or reduction in the Spikes. Try playing on it sometime, it's very nice to fight on. Certainly no where near Icicle Mountain in Melee.

Shadow Moses - Eh... Even vertical KOs are bad, here. Just DI into the hugenormous walls and tech. It's near impossible to kill someone if you're not near the center and on the top platform.

I suppose endless techs could pose a problem here.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not every character has access to a projectile, and not every character can be effected by projectiles. Not only that, but you're not considering the fact that the camping character may in turn have a projectile themselves, potentially ever a better one.

Walk offs were not banned strictly due to Fox's waveshine. If you believe so, they quite frankly I don't believe you really know what you're talking about. Low % kills are very easy by just staying near the blastzone.

I strictly remember that most of the walkoffs in melee also have very low ceilings. I did not say that they were banned because of Fox's waveshine, I said that they were banned because of Fox (and really, that's the largest reason. There were other broken strategies too, but the biggest was just the stuff Fox could do with those stages).

Icicle mountain-Moving stage, walk offs in some areas, low ceiling off the top platforms (though moderate overall), no edges, just a real mess.

Flatzone-Walk offs, Tools/other random effects, low ceiling

Yoshi's Island (pipes)-Walk off on the right, extremely low ceiling

Onett-Walk offs, walls, cars (though they give plenty of warning), low ceiling

Mushroom Kingdom-walk offs...I think this one has a moderate ceiling though.

Big Blue-do I need to say it?

Mushroom Kingdom 2-walkoffs, randomly appearing...Yoshi things (who spit out eggs that have ridiculous knockback when thrown), and a really, really low ceiling. It still surprises me that this stage is legal in teams.

So umm.... yeah. Walk offs were banned because of Fox for the most part. Other characters could do some nasty stuff on the stages too, but nothing could really even compare to Fox.

Now name one character that has some completely broken strategy on walk off stages (and I in turn will offer an obvious counter that most characters can do if need be).

Also note that the blastzone camping character would not be projectile camping unless he's an idiot (or he knows that the other person doesn't know how to properly deal with projectile camping, in which case...that's smart counterpicking). The person being camped would have more than enough time to simply position themselves so that shooting a projectile from that distance is not safe (remember how Marth stops a Falco from laser camping? You stand at a position where doing a standing or approaching laser is dangerous, which forces him to retreat while lasering. Do this until he runs out of room!). The blastzone acts the same way as a ledge in this scenario (only the camper is just that much closer to death).

 

[Ulevo]

I strictly remember that most of the walkoffs in melee also have very low ceilings. I did not say that they were banned because of Fox's waveshine, I said that they were banned because of Fox (and really, that's the largest reason. There were other broken strategies too, but the biggest was just the stuff Fox could do with those stages).

Icicle mountain-Moving stage, walk offs in some areas, low ceiling off the top platforms (though moderate overall), no edges, just a real mess.

Flatzone-Walk offs, Tools/other random effects, low ceiling

Yoshi's Island (pipes)-Walk off on the right, extremely low ceiling

Onett-Walk offs, walls, cars (though they give plenty of warning), low ceiling

Mushroom Kingdom-walk offs...I think this one has a moderate ceiling though.

Big Blue-do I need to say it?

Mushroom Kingdom 2-walkoffs, randomly appearing...Yoshi things (who spit out eggs that have ridiculous knockback when thrown), and a really, really low ceiling. It still surprises me that this stage is legal in teams.

So umm.... yeah. Walk offs were banned because of Fox for the most part. Other characters could do some nasty stuff on the stages too, but nothing could really even compare to Fox.

Now name one character that has some completely broken strategy on walk off stages (and I in turn will offer an obvious counter that most characters can do if need be).

Also note that the blastzone camping character would not be projectile camping unless he's an idiot (or he knows that the other person doesn't know how to properly deal with projectile camping, in which case...that's smart counterpicking). The person being camped would have more than enough time to simply position themselves so that shooting a projectile from that distance is not safe (remember how Marth stops a Falco from laser camping? You stand at a position where doing a standing or approaching laser is dangerous, which forces him to retreat while lasering. Do this until he runs out of room!). The blastzone acts the same way as a ledge in this scenario (only the camper is just that much closer to death).

You're correct in stating that Fox himself was a large reason for having a lot of stages banned in Melee, not just exclusively waveshine. However, walk offs presented a problem all on their own.

And how is projectile use at the edge a idiotic decision? It puts you at an advantage. You have no need to approach, and if they mess up (which is more likely because you're in control with your projectile use), you grab them for a stock, regardless of percent. There is no overwhelmingly broken strategy for blast zone camping, it is just similar to planking in the regard that it devolves the game to nothing but that in a case where walk offs are present. This has always been an issue in every Smash Bros game. Characters like Falco or King Dedede especially have huge advantages here. Sure, they can mess up and die themselves, but that is not the likelyhood of the circumstance here, and doesn't excuse the problem.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And how is projectile use at the edge a idiotic decision? It puts you at an advantage. You have no need to approach, and if they mess up (which is more likely because you're in control with your projectile use), you grab them for a stock, regardless of percent. There is no overwhelmingly broken strategy for blast zone camping, it is just similar to planking in the regard that it devolves the game to nothing but that in a case where walk offs are present. This has always been an issue in every Smash Bros game. Characters like Falco or King Dedede especially have huge advantages here. Sure, they can mess up and die themselves, but that is not the likelyhood of the circumstance here, and doesn't excuse the problem.

Is this not the equivalent of Falco doing a shorthop laser right next to you? How is that not a bad idea? What I'm saying is that most characters can just stand at a particular range (varies with the character) where they're able to punish the opponent for even attempting to fire their projectile.

And you're counting on them messing up a simple spacing manuver? You're saying that you're counting on them messing up the action of "stand in this spot and wait for him to try to shoot you"? Don't you know why Foxes stopped lasering when you got close to them (or Falco for that matter, who has the best projectile in the game) or retreated? It's because at that range, you can punish them for trying to shoot a projectile, so their only choices are retreat (if they have space for that) or stop. That is exactly how Marth dealt with projectile spammers in melee. That's exactly how Sonic deals with projectiles in brawl (and brawl+).

And DDD's projectile is terrible! He'll get outcamped by pretty much anybody (and with shield stun, he's not getting anymore shield grabs). Falco's projectile is also pretty limited when you take away his ability to move while doing it. An in place shorthop laser is incredibly ineffective and quite punishable.

 

[leafgreen386]

Can I just say that the scrollbar on this thread is fricking huge? Chibo, think you could kill the stage pics on your post? And same for the pics that ulevo quoted. (The pics in the OP are fine).

I would like to request that if we are going to follow this idea for Spear Pillar that we take we leave in the Pokemon and just freeze them. They're part of what makes the stage unique, and I'd like to keep them there provided they don't pose as hazards.

K. Sure. Whatever. As long as they don't attack you.

I really see nothing to be done to Castle Siege. Is quite playable as it is now, the walk offs are all temporary, and very easy to avoid for the time they're present. No different than Deflino Plaza. This stage is 100% perfect in my eyes.

I never said there was anything wrong with castle siege. I was saying we could get the default stage plus both the first and last transformations on their own as additional stages.

The tilting is a part of the stage, and isn't hazardous-- it merely changes up how the game is played in slight variations. I see this stage as 100% fine.

The tilting is random. That is the number one problem. The tilting is random. If you're trying to recover and the stage tilts as you're upBing, you'll die... even though you didn't do anything wrong. The stage just moved and screwed you over. In brawl+ you are going to be going for your max range to sweetspot a lot more frequently than in vb, too, due to NASL. The tilting is a flawed mechanic, and is something that shouldn't exist on a neutral, or at all.

In fact, this reminds me... yoshi's island and its stupid ghosts. AFAIK, these are also random, and can save people for no good reason. And I don't know what the community is calling them nowadays, or if they're just "ghosts," but I will henceforth refer to this ghost as "Ronnie." At least in melee, Randal was on a timer, and so you could just look at the time on the match and know if randal was going to save you or not, or save the other player, and you could plan your edgeguarding accordingly. But with ronnie, it's completely random, and is also quick, so you can't really count on it in your edgeguarding and be like... "ok, I'm going to wait till he falls down, and when ronnie pushes him up, I'll fair." No, it doesn't work like that. You try to edgeguard them, and they randomly get saved by ronnie. It doesn't even matter if it's possible to edgeguard and also account for this possibility at the same time - it's random, it's on a neutral, and it screws with matches. The only random element on any melee neutral was the wind on dreamland. That was it. We should try to cut any random elements from our neutrals if it's possible.

The one thing that concerns me on making stages larger is the camping issue. Especially now that we're making characters faster.

Doesn't making characters faster make it easier to stop camping? lol

The stages wouldn't be greatly increased in size, but it would be enough so that you wouldn't have to feel cramped when fighting on stages (this is most notable in doubles, may I add, but it would help singles, too). Most stages in brawl are actually fairly small.

Water lag reduction seems more appealing the way I look at it.

Yeah, slowing down the water on JJ might not be necessary if you can act sooner when you hit it, but we'll see. The klap-trap should be removed regardless, though.

The whole point of a counterpick is to provide the advantage to previous player who lost. That said, turning this stage in to an F.D. after breaking the walls once doesn't seem to really maintain its unique features. The only reason the cave of life works so well in here is because the bottom pillars can't be broken until the top ones are.

Like I said, I'm fine with trying out a more breakable LM. As long as the cave of life effect is greatly diminished.

I hope by "because of the hazards" you actually mean "because of the transformations". It's rather difficult to counterpick hazards.

lol yes that's what I meant.

Again with that water reduction.

You also agree with removing the bombs and catapult on this stage, yes? I think that's all that would need to be done to make the stage good. The wind thing is temporary, and the king of red lions and the shore are both fine.

Like you previously emphasized with Frigate Orpheon, the blocks here are what keep the stage unique from other maps. The bombs are the only problem with this stage, and while freezing it removes them, it also takes away its unique trait.

Well, we both agree with killing the bombs, at least. I guess I'm sorta indifferent as to whether it gets frozen. I suppose it would be the best if we just removed the bombs and that's it.

Meh... We could. I'd still like to keep the stage as close to the original as possible. Still, it's a possibility.

The stage would be awesome without the cars, which just serve as an interruption. They're a big enough hazard as they are now that I think we'd be justified in flat out removing them. Also, cars are random, although not directly. The order the stage travels in is random, although the cars follow a set course. That still means that you could randomly encounter cars every transform, or never encounter them at all in a match.

See, I told you. This stage is totally fixable.

Totally, man.

Again, this stage is unique for the fact that it moves upwards. A simple speed reduction is all it needs, along with the removal or reduction in the Spikes. Try playing on it sometime, it's very nice to fight on. Certainly no where near Icicle Mountain in Melee.

The difference between this stage and rainbow cruise is that most of the time, you are moving horizontally on rainbow cruise, while you're always moving up on rumble falls (and the only time RC moves quickly is on the reset portion, as well, while iirc rumble falls can get very fast at some parts forcing you to not just fall with the stage like in RC, but fight to keep up with it, climbing). I guess I'll have to try it at a reduced speed, though, and see how it plays. The spikes would definitely need to be removed or at least severely weakened.

Also... no comment on big blue, temple, NPC, or summit? (I know why you didn't reply to the walk-off levels.)

 

[kupo15]

That's actually not too bad of an idea. Of course, I'd have to give it more thought, and I don't think it's really relevant to the specified stage at hand so much as swimming with characters, but never the less this stage is also 100% fine.

So now you want to have no punishment for going in the water and allowing people to just go in the water and replenish their jumps and react quickly? As I said before, I'd rather we just remove the swimming all together and replace it with low gravity so it affects you somewhat. Water fights are one of the stupidest things about this game and I don't see the competitive value it adds to the game in the slightest. I guess less lag would make them less annoying, but I'd rather it be gone all together

One more thing about Delfino I think would be good is if we can slow down the stage a little so you have more time with each transformation. I feel this stage moves too fast that it detracts from the fighting and its more about surviving.

The one thing that concerns me on making stages larger is the camping issue. Especially now that we're making characters faster.

I agree that all stages should be larger. I would even argue that the blastzones should be pushed back as well because there is too much outright killing at low percents. I feel a wider blast range would do better for the edge game and add some excitement back. It can also balance out the characters who lack kill moves a bit by providing them with more of an edgeguard game to gimp better while making the heavy hitters have to rack up some more percent to outright kill people. I feel you die really quickly

But I don't see how a bigger stage means more camping. As long as you can zone in well and there isn't some stupid cave to go around in circles, widening stages shouldn't make camping a problem. Its when you expand the X AND Y parts of the stage do you run into camping problems (see New pork)

Water lag reduction seems more appealing the way I look at it.

Again with that water reduction.

I hate water

Again, this stage is unique for the fact that it moves upwards. A simple speed reduction is all it needs, along with the removal or reduction in the Spikes. Try playing on it sometime, it's very nice to fight on. Certainly no where near Icicle Mountain in Melee.

The problem I see with this level is that the camera mod doesn't work on it. It stays zoomed in too much. If this isn't fixable, I don't think these scrolling stages are worth not included a better camera

 

[Ulevo]

Is this not the equivalent of Falco doing a shorthop laser right next to you? How is that not a bad idea? What I'm saying is that most characters can just stand at a particular range (varies with the character) where they're able to punish the opponent for even attempting to fire their projectile.

And you're counting on them messing up a simple spacing manuver? You're saying that you're counting on them messing up the action of "stand in this spot and wait for him to try to shoot you"? Don't you know why Foxes stopped lasering when you got close to them (or Falco for that matter, who has the best projectile in the game) or retreated? It's because at that range, you can punish them for trying to shoot a projectile, so their only choices are retreat (if they have space for that) or stop. That is exactly how Marth dealt with projectile spammers in melee. That's exactly how Sonic deals with projectiles in brawl (and brawl+).

And DDD's projectile is terrible! He'll get outcamped by pretty much anybody (and with shield stun, he's not getting anymore shield grabs). Falco's projectile is also pretty limited when you take away his ability to move while doing it. An in place shorthop laser is incredibly ineffective and quite punishable.

No, it's not the equivalent of Falco using lasers right next to you. Obviously once the opponent closes the distance, Falco will stop and react to you. Might I add that Falco has no lag whatsoever from his lasers while landing? The point still remains that he will be at the advantage. I understand that certain characters can punish projectile use at a specific range-- thats not what I'm trying to outline here. What I am saying is that projectile users have the tool that essentially forces the game to be played near the blast zone.

I don't think I even need to argue this though. If it is a problematic issue (which it is), it will be brought to our attention by the community, and I don't think walk off stages will be allowed without some serious changes made anyway.

I never said there was anything wrong with castle siege. I was saying we could get the default stage plus both the first and last transformations on their own as additional stages.

I don't think we want too many stages... With the amount of stages we can make playable, we're set at a good number. I think making more might be overwhelming and unnecessary in a lot circumstances, but this an option.

The tilting is random. That is the number one problem. The tilting is random. If you're trying to recover and the stage tilts as you're upBing, you'll die... even though you didn't do anything wrong. The stage just moved and screwed you over. In brawl+ you are going to be going for your max range to sweetspot a lot more frequently than in vb, too, due to NASL. The tilting is a flawed mechanic, and is something that shouldn't exist on a neutral, or at all.

Ah, yes. NASL does possess a problem with this stage now that you bring that point about. The tilting of the stage is what separates this stage from the rest, but you do have a valid point.

In fact, this reminds me... yoshi's island and its stupid ghosts. AFAIK, these are also random, and can save people for no good reason. And I don't know what the community is calling them nowadays, or if they're just "ghosts," but I will henceforth refer to this ghost as "Ronnie." At least in melee, Randal was on a timer, and so you could just look at the time on the match and know if randal was going to save you or not, or save the other player, and you could plan your edgeguarding accordingly. But with ronnie, it's completely random, and is also quick, so you can't really count on it in your edgeguarding and be like... "ok, I'm going to wait till he falls down, and when ronnie pushes him up, I'll fair." No, it doesn't work like that. You try to edgeguard them, and they randomly get saved by ronnie. It doesn't even matter if it's possible to edgeguard and also account for this possibility at the same time - it's random, it's on a neutral, and it screws with matches. The only random element on any melee neutral was the wind on dreamland. That was it. We should try to cut any random elements from our neutrals if it's possible.

One thing I'd like to mention is that certain characters will use this trait to their advantage, namely Peach. If she gets edgeguarded and can't recover, she can pull out her parasol and float with the potential of having "Ronnie" appear. I do suppose you have a point here as well.

Doesn't making characters faster make it easier to stop camping? lol

The speed increase that Fox has received is not even remotely comparable to the lack of a speed increase Ganondorf received, or Bowser. Characters such as Fox and Captain Falcon are now significantly faster than said characters compared to vBrawl, so that is where my concern comes in. However, Melee Corneria was larger than Brawl Corneria and it was still legal.

I suppose I should have worded that better.

Yeah, slowing down the water on JJ might not be necessary if you can act sooner when you hit it, but we'll see. The klap-trap should be removed regardless, though.

Agreed.

You also agree with removing the bombs and catapult on this stage, yes? I think that's all that would need to be done to make the stage good. The wind thing is temporary, and the king of red lions and the shore are both fine.

What about the front of the ship?

The stage would be awesome without the cars, which just serve as an interruption. They're a big enough hazard as they are now that I think we'd be justified in flat out removing them. Also, cars are random, although not directly. The order the stage travels in is random, although the cars follow a set course. That still means that you could randomly encounter cars every transform, or never encounter them at all in a match.

I am going to do some tests later to determine if there is a specific patter to the car rates in conjunction with the stage changes. I don't think it is random to the point where a player will be oblivious to their presence. I'll see.

The difference between this stage and rainbow cruise is that most of the time, you are moving horizontally on rainbow cruise, while you're always moving up on rumble falls (and the only time RC moves quickly is on the reset portion, as well, while iirc rumble falls can get very fast at some parts forcing you to not just fall with the stage like in RC, but fight to keep up with it, climbing). I guess I'll have to try it at a reduced speed, though, and see how it plays. The spikes would definitely need to be removed or at least severely weakened.

I'm quite sure that Rumble Falls only has a speed increase on specific parts of the stage, and they are already reasonably slow. You do not need to fight to keep up with it so much as maintain movement while fighting (like Rainbow Cruise, only vertical). I don't even feel there is a huge problem with the stage now, it's the spike(s) that are the main fault of the stage. If we could reduce the speed and remove those, I don't think there would be an excuse to not use the stage.

Also... no comment on big blue, temple, NPC, or summit? (I know why you didn't reply to the walk-off levels.)

Eh... Big Blue in my opinion is a lost cause. Temple and New Pork City could be cropped, I'm just not overly for the idea. We can create some codes and see how it goes. Summit I need to think over.

So now you want to have no punishment for going in the water and allowing people to just go in the water and replenish their jumps and react quickly? As I said before, I'd rather we just remove the swimming all together and replace it with low gravity so it affects you somewhat. Water fights are one of the stupidest things about this game and I don't see the competitive value it adds to the game in the slightest. I guess less lag would make them less annoying, but I'd rather it be gone all together

Less lag would allow a player to leave the water safer, and decrease the likelyhood of someone going in a chasing after them, which would devolve in to the scenario you described. It also speeds up game play. Stalling in water doesn't happen because they need to grab edges in order to properly replenish their ability to swim, and that is very difficult to do safely now that ASL are gone.

For the record though Kupo, you can make pillow fights competitive if you wanted to. That's not really an argument.

One more thing about Delfino I think would be good is if we can slow down the stage a little so you have more time with each transformation. I feel this stage moves too fast that it detracts from the fighting and its more about surviving.

I disagree with this. I believe each stage transformation lasts for a full 20 seconds at a time, and the actual stage lift lasts for 12-13 seconds... These are rough guesses, but I did have the numbers specific in my mind at one point. In either case, these are fair amounts of time given your limit of 7:00 - 8:00 minute matches (which don't even last that long). I really never have an issue fighting against this stage ever.

I agree that all stages should be larger. I would even argue that the blastzones should be pushed back as well because there is too much outright killing at low percents.

This is a good thing Kupo. That's how Melee was, was it not? Unless you're talking about ridiculous kills happening all the time, in which case I would attribute that to lack of experience with character and mechanic changes, and improper DI.

I feel a wider blast range would do better for the edge game and add some excitement back.

How does a wider blast range constitute a better edge game?

It can also balance out the characters who lack kill moves a bit by providing them with more of an edgeguard game to gimp better while making the heavy hitters have to rack up some more percent to outright kill people.

Um... Wider blast zones do absolutely nothing for your ability to gimp. If anything, smaller blast zones improve the edge game of characters with less power because they can kill sooner, and are less reliant on gimping. Gimping is completely reliant on your ability to push your opponent off stage too far for them to make it back with their recovery... The blast zones could be infinite, and this wouldn't change in the slightest. Actually, increasing the blastzone lines in a lot of cases is bad, because certain characters like Meta Knight or Pit simply don't die that way--- you need to outright kill them. Making the stages too big would make this a harder task than it is, indirectly buffing characters in the process.

You're not making sense here Kupo.

I feel you die really quickly.

That's because you do. DI better, get accustom to the mechanics. Unless I get combo'd in to a spike, or really powerful move, I live to decent percents to, albeit short than regular Brawl.

But I don't see how a bigger stage means more camping. As long as you can zone in well and there isn't some stupid cave to go around in circles, widening stages shouldn't make camping a problem.

Technically speaking, Bridge Of Eldin is just another Final Destination without ledges. How about this. I'll stick your Ganondorf on there against my Fox, and we'll see who wins. There's no circles, right? Shouldn't be a problem.

Its when you expand the X AND Y parts of the stage do you run into camping problems (see New pork)

No. The larger the stage, the more room their is to run around. Stages are kept small to prevent things like that. It doesn't matter if they have loops, platforms, whatever. If it is too massive, regardless of what pieces are too big or small--- if there is the ability to camp, it will be exploited.

I hate water

I hate Ice Climbers. I ruined a controller at a tournament because of them. We all hate something.

The problem I see with this level is that the camera mod doesn't work on it. It stays zoomed in too much. If this isn't fixable, I don't think these scrolling stages are worth not included a better camera

Is there anyway we could simply not apply the camera to this one stage? It doesn't suit the level anyway because of the way the stage is laid out.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No, it's not the equivalent of Falco using lasers right next to you. Obviously once the opponent closes the distance, Falco will stop and react to you.

Falco has no guranteed followups to a laser from that distance and also has no reliable approaches from that distance in most matchups. It's essentially the "hole" in his gameplay. He's at just a precarious situation as you are (as he's the one with his back the the blast zone and no reliable defensive options, while you're the one scared of a reversal if you mess something up)

Doesn't seem like an overwhelming advantage at all to me.

Might I add that Falco has no lag whatsoever from his lasers while landing?

So? He's got plenty of lag before firing so shooting another laser is not an option, and he doesn't exactly have exceptional range on anything else (beside...his shine which doesn't really lead to anything)

The point still remains that he will be at the advantage. I understand that certain characters can punish projectile use at a specific range-- thats not what I'm trying to outline here.

Then how is he at an advantage? The player has the ample opportunity to maintain that spacing, because the Falco doesn't have a lot of room to move.

What I am saying is that projectile users have the tool that essentially forces the game to be played near the blast zone.

And what exactly is wrong with the game being played near the blast zone? So far I don't see how the character is getting any distinct advantage from it, since they're limiting their movement options in favor of taking this high risk high reward gamble (hoping the opponent will overstep themselves). Personally I'd never want to have my back so close to the blastzone, I'd prefer to have my opponent get trapped in that position, so I could just zone them that much more easily.

I agree that some characters would have serious problems against this. Then again, is that not what most counterpicks are? Stages that either give the player a distinct advantage (Fox on Corneria), or give the opponent a distinct disadvantage (Marth on mute city)? However, most characters really wouldn't have much trouble dealing with this, because on of the major aspects of an effective zoning game is that the person zoning has adequate space so that they are more flexible than their opponent. You're trying to lock the opponent into a particular position (whether that be getting them airborne or stuck in their sheild) so that you can punish from there. But this requires that you adjust their position in relation to theirs, which simply doesn't work when you're trying to blastzone camp. I feel like obviously know this concept, but you're just not applying it to this situation.


The main point of this post I guess is that I see that walk off stages are potentially powerful counterpicks in a few matchups, but I don't think that they're so powerful overall that they must be banned.

 

[goodoldganon]

About the cars in Port Town, they are on a very predictable pattern and they also are very visible in the distance before coming into the battle. They don't just suddenly appear and own faces. Personally, I think we have plenty of good, diverse stages as is. For example, what do we gain by freezing the tilting of the 3rd stop in Castle Siege? I'm a Ganon main and tilting stages annoy me far more then probably any other character, since you know Ganon is really the only character that relies on the auto cancel still.

It's not like the stage tilts really fast. You can see the tilt coming and react accordingly. I'll re-read the topic but it seems to me lots of people want to just change some of the decent CPs we have to neutrals. This is a good topic so I opened another one discussing what stages we have with our current codes that we consider legal. Basically, I feel too many stages becomes overwhelming and many of them we'll almost never see.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Isn't that too a property of counterpicks? How often do you see team matches on Termina Bay or Mushroom Kingdom 2? How many people pick Kongo Jungle 64 against you? People pick counterpicks specifically to gain an advantage over the opponent. It could be the surprise factor, it could be something that favors your character, it could be something that cripples your opponent's character, ect.

Though most of the time you go with one of the first 2 (since for the 3rd they can just switch characters).

 

[Ulevo]

About the cars in Port Town, they are on a very predictable pattern and they also are very visible in the distance before coming into the battle. They don't just suddenly appear are own faces. Personally, I think we have plenty of good, diverse stages as is. For example, what do we gain by freezing the tilting of the 3rd stop in Castle Siege? I'm a Ganon main and tilting stages annoy me far more then probably any other character, since you know Ganon is really the only character that relies on the auto cancel still.

It's not like the stage tilts really fast. You can see the tilt coming and react accordingly. I'll re-read the topic but it seems to me lots of people want to just change some of the decent CPs we have to neutrals. This is a good topic so I opened another one discussing what stages we have with our current codes that we consider legal. Basically, I feel too many stages becomes overwhelming and many of them we'll almost never see.

For the record GoG, I think Leaf was talking about removing the tilting in Lylat Cruise, not the tilts on the third transformation in Castle Siege, which tilts from one side to the other systematically.

Actually, I think that if we were to put it in to place that the stage tilts very much the same way, we would have no need to make an extra stage, and Lylat could remain neutral.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, I think that if we were to put it in to place that the stage tilts very much the same way, we would have no need to make an extra stage, and Lylat could remain neutral.

That actually seems like a very good idea.

 

[goodoldganon]

True, they do say variety is the spice of life. I just want to make sure we aren't changing a bunch of stages into counterpicks and getting (for example) 3 or 4 counterpicks that are good for people with good vertical KOs. Brawl's soundtrack is good, but do we need a bunch of stages with the same basic layout just so we can hear different music and see different backgrounds?

Either way, there have been a few suggestions (tilting of the 3rd stop in CS or removing cars in Port Town) that have I find a little absurd. We should try and keep the original feel of these stages in tact as best we can. The only exceptions are when the hazards make fighting next to impossible. That's why we have PS2 and Warioware frozen but I don't think F-zero cars and stage tilting are stage hazards of the same magnitude.

EDIT: Ah Lylat tilting. **** that stage. I always screw up auto cancels.

 

[Ulevo]

True, they do say variety is the spice of life. I just want to make sure we aren't changing a bunch of stages into counterpicks and getting (for example) 3 or 4 counterpicks that are good for people with good vertical KOs. Brawl's soundtrack is good, but do we need a bunch of stages with the same basic layout just so we can hear different music and see different backgrounds?

Either way, there have been a few suggestions (tilting of the 3rd stop in CS or removing cars in Port Town) that have I find a little absurd. We should try and keep the original feel of these stages in tact as best we can. The only exceptions are when the hazards make fighting next to impossible. That's why we have PS2 and Warioware frozen but I don't think F-zero cars and stage tilting are stage hazards of the same magnitude.

EDIT: Ah Lylat tilting. **** that stage. I always screw up auto cancels.

It messes up Phantasm too, as well as laser use. And Ice Climbers CG's... Amongst a lot of other things.

I do agree with you that keeping the feel of these stages is important. The only reason we're editing these stages to make them usable for competitive play, rather than making custom stages, is because of the unique taste they bring to the table-- feel, artistic background, sound tracks, and everything else we love about them. Still, there are things that do need to go.

I'm not sure if the cars on Port Town are one, I'll check tonight if there is a system like I said.

 

[CT Chia]

Can Port Town be frozen where the stage could still fly around for cool animations but never land? That would be awesome.

edit:
put my pics on the first page in mini code boxes so the page is smaller

 

[Ulevo]

Can Port Town be frozen where the stage could still fly around for cool animations but never land? That would be awesome.

edit:
put my pics on the first page in mini code boxes so the page is smaller

Eh... Then we'd have another flat stage, except with no ledges. I don't think that would work out very well.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm sure it's possible, but the current freezing code just has you start on platform and you never move from the start. (I believe) I haven't edited that stage at all since I like it as it is. The cars are very manageable. My only complaint with the stage is when it tries to make that turn and the left part of the platform hits that wall and it send you FLYING if you are standing over there.

EDIT: I'm not sure there is a 100% car system Ulevo but with my extensive experience with Port Town here is what I believe happens. At the start of the match at the first stop there are always cars, every time. After that the stage takes 1 of 3 paths. It's random which path it takes but once on the path the car pattern is predictable. Also, the cars are always visible in the background for at least 5-10 seconds before rushing past the fighting. The only time one can get a minor notice about the cars is when you stop at the finish line.

 

[CT Chia]

Eh... Then we'd have another flat stage, except with no ledges. I don't think that would work out very well.

Yea, we don't have any other flat stages with no ledges lol, that's the whole CP aspect of it, which is why certain characters liked to CP it in Melee (one's with great recoveries like Jiggz and Peach, and players that can punish well.

I'm sure it's possible, but the current freezing code just has you start on platform and you never move from the start. (I believe) I haven't edited that stage at all since I like it as it is. The cars are very manageable. My only complaint with the stage is when it tries to make that turn and the left part of the platform hits that wall and it send you FLYING if you are standing over there.

EDIT: I'm not sure there is a 100% car system Ulevo but with my extensive experience with Port Town here is what I believe happens. At the start of the match at the first stop there are always cars, every time. After that the stage takes 1 of 3 paths. It's random which path it takes but once on the path the car pattern is predictable. Also, the cars are always visible in the background for at least 5-10 seconds before rushing past the fighting. The only time one can get a minor notice about the cars is when you stop at the finish line.

I still find it ridiculously hard to know when cars are coming. They come with like no warning most of the time, do good damage, etc. Players shouldn't have to remember the exact layout of the entire stage perfectly to avoid the hazard (and on some landings the cars don't always show up). You also have to consider that some of the landings are SO huge that players will just stop fighting for that 15 or w/e seconds, especially if cards go by. Have it so it flies around for cool animation, remove the hitbox of that wall maybe? And you got a cool stage.

In reply to leafgreen on pg 1 saying we should strive to make as many legal stages as possible:

NOOOOOOOOOOO

The reason being: by somehow creating so many different stages we end up with two problems:

Too many neutral stages: The Smash community has evolved to liking the stage strike system for the first match. Currently vBrawl is at 5 stages (or 9 according to the SBR), and most B+ lists are at 7. Those are ok numbers for remembering who strikes which stage (though 9 is starting to push it, and I don't want to visit the stage select screen everytime just to keep track, too much time) so with all of these new stages, Hyrule Temple, New Pork, all these Castle Siege transformations, Spear Pillar, you're adding TONS of neutrals. We can't do stage striking with like 17 stages. It's just not feasible. Not to mention it's boring since so many of the stages will end up being similar and people might argue with boundary problems that we have control over.

Banning Counterpicks Won't Make Sense Anymore: People have a ban in a tourney set to take out a level that hurts them the most or that they don't like. But with like 80,000 legal stages, even if the player bans a stage they don't like, there will be a greater chance that there will be another legal stage that is just like the stage they banned, making their ban worthless.

 

[Ulevo]

Yea, we don't have any other flat stages with no ledges lol, that's the whole CP aspect of it, which is why certain characters liked to CP it in Melee (one's with great recoveries like Jiggz and Peach, and players that can punish well.

This is most of the reason why I want to fix/remove the cars Chibo. But simply making it this way would be far too dominant of a stage for specific characters. Even Melee had Mute City had the stage land during transformations.

I still find it ridiculously hard to know when cars are coming. They come with like no warning most of the time, do good damage, etc. Players shouldn't have to remember the exact layout of the entire stage perfectly to avoid the hazard (and on some landings the cars don't always show up). You also have to consider that some of the landings are SO huge that players will just stop fighting for that 15 or w/e seconds, especially if cards go by. Have it so it flies around for cool animation, remove the hitbox of that wall maybe? And you got a cool stage.

There is only a single landing in the whole map where you don't see the cars coming WAY ahead of time. That said, if the cars appear there, the only safe location is the top platform. This is a problem.

As for the large landings, I hardly see that as an issue. One person will be at a % or stock lead, and the other will (ideally) have to pursue them. If they don't want to due to temporary walk off, which there are not many of, they just wait for the stage to lift off again if the opponent decides to camp the blast zone. It's not a big deal.

In reply to leafgreen on pg 1 saying we should strive to make as many legal stages as possible:

NOOOOOOOOOOO

The reason being: by somehow creating so many different stages we end up with two problems:

Too many neutral stages: The Smash community has evolved to liking the stage strike system for the first match. Currently vBrawl is at 5 stages (or 9 according to the SBR), and most B+ lists are at 7. Those are ok numbers for remembering who strikes which stage (though 9 is starting to push it, and I don't want to visit the stage select screen everytime just to keep track, too much time) so with all of these new stages, Hyrule Temple, New Pork, all these Castle Siege transformations, Spear Pillar, you're adding TONS of neutrals. We can't do stage striking with like 17 stages. It's just not feasible. Not to mention it's boring since so many of the stages will end up being similar and people might argue with boundary problems that we have control over.

Banning Counterpicks Won't Make Sense Anymore: People have a ban in a tourney set to take out a level that hurts them the most or that they don't like. But with like 80,000 legal stages, even if the player bans a stage they don't like, there will be a greater chance that there will be another legal stage that is just like the stage they banned, making their ban worthless.

Chibo makes some valid points here, I feel.

 

[kupo15]

Less lag would allow a player to leave the water safer, and decrease the likelyhood of someone going in a chasing after them, which would devolve in to the scenario you described. It also speeds up game play. Stalling in water doesn't happen because they need to grab edges in order to properly replenish their ability to swim, and that is very difficult to do safely now that ASL are gone.

Ok, so then when you have no punishment for going into the water, how does that not make water a safe place to go? How does MK and the other multi jumpers NOT be able to take advantage of this more than anyone else? If the water wasn't there, then they would be forced to recover after their jumps so they couldn't stay off the edge for 1 minute. Off the ledge should be dangerous and not safe. Water makes it safe.

I really don't see any competitive value to water at all. If you remove it and replace it with moon gravity, it still aids recovery but you don't replenish your jumps and are still forced to return back to the stage instead of lolly gagging your way back. Maybe shortening the drowning timer would also help but I still like my idea of moon gravity water and no swimming instead.

This is a good thing Kupo. That's how Melee was, was it not? Unless you're talking about ridiculous kills happening all the time, in which case I would attribute that to lack of experience with character and mechanic changes, and improper DI.

Yes it was. Melee had more of a stage and edge game than brawl+ has and will ever have simply because you can't give the ledge game a chance because of the ridiculously small blast zones.

How does a wider blast range constitute a better edge game?

Because if you outright die, there is no edge game

Um... Wider blast zones do absolutely nothing for your ability to gimp. If anything, smaller blast zones improve the edge game of characters with less power because they can kill sooner, and are less reliant on gimping.

How do wider blast zones do nothing? Can you honestly tell me that Warioware has a better and more reliant edge guarding game than PS2?

Gimping is completely reliant on your ability to push your opponent off stage too far for them to make it back with their recovery... The blast zones could be infinite, and this wouldn't change in the slightest.

Yes it would change. If the blast zones are out where you can't outright kill most of the time, then you would have to edge guard better because they could make it back. If they outright die, there is no edge game

Actually, increasing the blastzone lines in a lot of cases is bad, because certain characters like Meta Knight or Pit simply don't die that way--- you need to outright kill them. Making the stages too big would make this a harder task than it is, indirectly buffing characters in the process.

That's true. Gliding is another goofy, unfair recovery aspect I feel. I'm not talking about making them indefinitely bigger, only slightly. This does not include the top and bottom blastzones, only the sides so you can still kill these fliers at the same percent top and bottom. Maybe we should nerf gliding to automatically stop at 3 seconds or something so you can't get back from anywhere with them.

That's because you do. DI better, get accustom to the mechanics. Unless I get combo'd in to a spike, or really powerful move, I live to decent percents to, albeit short than regular Brawl.

C'mon Ulevo. I'm sure you've seen my vids and know that I know how to DI properly. That is the not the problem. I'm not a scrub

Technically speaking, Bridge Of Eldin is just another Final Destination without ledges. How about this. I'll stick your Ganondorf on there against my Fox, and we'll see who wins. There's no circles, right? Shouldn't be a problem.

The camping problem lies with the hole in the middle and that you start miles apart but even then, you can powershield to get close. (which by the way wouldn't be a bad addition, PS reflection). But BoE is much bigger than I wanted to expand levels. I am only talking about 5%.

No. The larger the stage, the more room their is to run around. Stages are kept small to prevent things like that. It doesn't matter if they have loops, platforms, whatever. If it is too massive, regardless of what pieces are too big or small--- if there is the ability to camp, it will be exploited.

So if stages are kept small on purpose to prevent camping (you make it sound like we had a choice in the matter of making them small to begin with), then I would assume that camping was a HUGE problem in melee with its large stages the same way it is in brawl?

I hate Ice Climbers. I ruined a controller at a tournament because of them. We all hate something.

ICers add more competitive value to the game. I see water as nothing more to break up the fight of the match and to buff everyone's recovery. But even so, it helps the already good recovery people better because they can abuse the water more than the weaker recovery characters.

s there anyway we could simply not apply the camera to this one stage? It doesn't suit the level anyway because of the way the stage is laid out.

Maybe, but I don't see the point in trying to make scroll stages playable. But that's just me

 

[Ulevo]

Ok, so then when you have no punishment for going into the water, how does that not make water a safe place to go? How does MK and the other multi jumpers NOT be able to take advantage of this more than anyone else? If the water wasn't there, then they would be forced to recover after their jumps so they couldn't stay off the edge for 1 minute. Off the ledge should be dangerous and not safe. Water makes it safe.

Kupo, we're not insinuating we should remove all lag when you jump in the water. Only decrease it. It isn't like there isn't any punishment for landing in the water. When you're in the water, you're completely immobile, and your options are severely limited. The only issue that this water can present is stalling, and this can only happen on a single stage prominently anyway: Pirate Ship. For what you are suggesting, which is a rather drastic measure, I don't think it is worth it to ensure that characters cannot stall on a single stage. I'd also like to mention that stalling on Pirate Ship vBrawl has never been effective, not to the point where it has been considered a reason to ban the stage. I see no difference in Brawl Plus.

If you're arguing it makes characters recovery better, well... It does. What is wrong with that? Bridge Of Eldin, amongst other walk offs do the same thing, and people are arguing to make those legal.

I really don't see any competitive value to water at all. If you remove it and replace it with moon gravity, it still aids recovery but you don't replenish your jumps and are still forced to return back to the stage instead of lolly gagging your way back

But you remove this unique trait for the sake of one, maybe two stages, when it isn't a problem. Jungle Japes river is more of a death trap than a safe heaven for characters, so I'll pretend like it doesn't exist. Delfino changes, so even assuming what you're suggesting was to be an issue (which it isn't), it would merely be temporary.

With Pirate Ship, I already said my piece on that above.

Because if you outright die, there is no edge game.

And I don't believe characters die quickly to the point where there is no edge game, or even to the point where edge game isn't a thriving aspect in Brawl Plus game.

How do wider blast zones do nothing? Can you honestly tell me that Warioware has a better and more reliant edge guarding game than PS2?

For one, you're using the term edge guarding incorrectly, or in the wrong context. You're thinking of gimping. And if we're discussing on how to make the blastzones bigger, not smaller, than that won't change the overall effect on how gimping plays a roll.

That's true. Gliding is another goofy, unfair recovery aspect I feel. I'm not talking about making them indefinitely bigger, only slightly. This does not include the top and bottom blastzones, only the sides so you can still kill these fliers at the same percent top and bottom.

I presently have no reason to believe this is a good idea. Actually, it could distort character balance.

C'mon Ulevo. I'm sure you've seen my vids and know that I know how to DI properly. That is the not the problem. I'm not a scrub

First off, you're using scrub in the context as well. A player that does not know how to correctly DI is not a scrub, but simply an inexperienced player. And in reality, we're all inexperienced players right now in the midst of Brawl Plus. I'm not claiming you have no idea of to DI, or that you can't do so, I am just implying that your experiences with the new system may be biased because of your lack of experience with the new system.

Look at the test I did yesterday. DI can mean the difference between Mario dying in a specific circumstance at 84%, or at 139%. That's a difference of 53%. That's a massive difference. Not DIing correctly, even if it may be due to adjusting to the new mechanics, can mean a rather large difference between your stocks disappearing and lasting long in a match.

The camping problem lies with the hole in the middle and that you start miles apart but even then, you can powershield to get close. (which by the way wouldn't be a bad addition, PS reflection). But BoE is much bigger than I wanted to expand levels. I am only talking about 5%.

The camping problem does not lie in the fact that there is a hole in the middle, or anything else. The stage is massive. That's the problem. If we froze the level and started next to eachother, I guarantee you if I played Fox on that level against any character that didn't have a projectile, a reflector, or sufficient speed, I would win automatically.

So if stages are kept small on purpose to prevent camping (you make it sound like we had a choice in the matter of making them small to begin with), then I would assume that camping was a HUGE problem in melee with its large stages the same way it is in brawl?

Yes, it was a huge problem. There were many maps that were banned largely due to the fact that Fox's short hop laser and full hop laser were considered broken tactics on said levels. If Fox were simply banned on those levels, it would just shift to Falco, and so on.

ICers add more competitive value to the game. I see water as nothing more to break up the fight of the match and to buff everyone's recovery. But even so, it helps the already good recovery people better because they can abuse the water more than the weaker recovery characters.

I really disagree with this. Characters such as Peach have nothing to gain from playing on a stage with water, and her recovery is very good. Meanwhile characters like Ike who can kill you once you've entered the water do very well on this stage. Specific characters have specific character uses on levels with water. Heck, Jiggs get free rests.

Maybe, but I don't see the point in trying to make scroll stages playable. But that's just me

You seem to have a problem with any stage that moves.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, we're not insinuating we should remove all lag when you jump in the water. Only decrease it. It isn't like there isn't any punishment for landing in the water. When you're in the water, you're completely immobile, and your options are severely limited. The only issue that this water can present is stalling, and this can only happen on a single stage prominently anyway: Pirate Ship. For what you are suggesting, which is a rather drastic measure, I don't think it is worth it to ensure that characters cannot stall on a single stage. I'd also like to mention that stalling on Pirate Ship vBrawl has never been effective, not to the point where it has been considered a reason to ban the stage. I see no difference in Brawl Plus.

Stalling wasn't much of a problem because the stage moved which won't be the cause if we freeze this stage and also because of the lag which you intend to reduce.

To me, it makes more sense and it seems to add more competitive value to the water if you remove swimming, but give it moon gravity so that it aids recoveries and removes stalling.

But you remove this unique trait for the sake of one, maybe two stages, when it isn't a problem. Jungle Japes river is more of a death trap than a safe heaven for characters, so I'll pretend like it doesn't exist. Delfino changes, so even assuming what you're suggesting was to be an issue (which it isn't), it would merely be temporary.

This game is missing flow. The flow in this game is bad because of these nuances that don't add much to the game competitively. It isn't so much that "by the book" its a problem, its just that I think we can improve upon this mechanic. If we can keep the same sense of the mechanic but vastly improve its competitive value to the game, I don't see why we shouldn't

And I don't believe characters die quickly to the point where there is no edge game, or even to the point where edge game isn't a thriving aspect in Brawl Plus game.

The edge game could be improved. Yes, there is more an edge game then vbrawl but it could be better. I'd rather my enemies out right die at 150% minimum from good DI rather than 100% with good DI. It would give more reward for having good DI but your still not off the hook because you still need to get back to the ledge. If 2/3s the game is based on out right killing and 1/3 is edge guarding (which I feel it is atm), I think we could do better. Its getting people off the stage and keeping them off that I find smash bros to be an exciting game and by widening the blast zones, we balance out the out right killing and the gimping parts to the game that I feel needs some work.

For one, you're using the term edge guarding incorrectly, or in the wrong context. You're thinking of gimping. And if we're discussing on how to make the blastzones bigger, not smaller, than that won't change the overall effect on how gimping plays a roll.

I'd rather kill them because I had to step up my edge guarding game instead of outright killing them every time at 100% with good DI. With the addition of ledge teching if possible, actually allowing the players to be more rewarded for good DI and the opportunity to make it back if your opponent messes up at edge guarding IMO sounds like a better game and melee proved this to be true.

I presently have no reason to believe this is a good idea. Actually, it could distort character balance.

You missed the part where I said maybe we should consider nerfing gliding so it stops after 3 seconds (arbitrary). They still have a better recovery because they can glide but at least it won't be as out of proportion to the rest of the cast. I probably edited that while you were typing.

I'm not claiming you have no idea of to DI, or that you can't do so, I am just implying that your experiences with the new system may be biased because of your lack of experience with the new system.

Haha what new system Ulevo? I have been here since day one several months ago unlike you who just recently came into the scene. I have been there since hitstun came out and since hitlag came out and have adjusted a long long time ago so I am by no means inexperience to "the system"

The camping problem does not lie in the fact that there is a hole in the middle, or anything else. The stage is massive. That's the problem. If we froze the level and started next to eachother, I guarantee you if I played Fox on that level against any character that didn't have a projectile, a reflector, or sufficient speed, I would win automatically.

I also said that we wouldn't increase the stage size to being that big. A 5% increase in stage size does not make all stages the size of BoE. Myself and others have tried out the smaller characters code and agreed that a larger stage feels much better for the game and camping was no more a problem than it is now.

I really disagree with this. Characters such as Peach have nothing to gain from playing on a stage with water, and her recovery is very good. Meanwhile characters like Ike who can kill you once you've entered the water do very well on this stage. Specific characters have specific character uses on levels with water. Heck, Jiggs get free rests.

You have MK for example who can Diar WoP you in the water because of his good recovery. Peach could do something similar because she can float and attack instead of the poorer recoveries who put themselves in a worse position by attempting to attack you in the water because they can get stuck in the water. So camping in the water on a frozen stage can be viable.


Basically, what I base my views on Brawl+ is this. I'm trying to help make the brawl Nintendo promised us. I pull everything good from all three games and included it or improve upon it. For example, melee had water which didn't do anything but brawl expanded upon it and allowed you to swim in it. Not seeing any competitive value to the new swimming aspect of the game made me think about removing it but I still wanted to make it different which is what Brawl did to the water; thus I suggested removing swimming and replacing it with moon gravity. This makes the water act less like walk off levels, which generally is not accepted by the community. So this trade off I feel takes a melee added feature and improves upon it in a positive, competitive way.

Take gliding for example. Its a brawl feature that is a good feature but I feel its too powerful as is especially if we consider making the stages bigger. So instead of removing it because melee didn't have it, I proposed a small timer so you can't glide forever to help balance out the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Stalling wasn't much of a problem because the stage moved which won't be the cause if we freeze this stage and also because of the lag which you intend to reduce.

To me, it makes more sense and it seems to add more competitive value to the water if you remove swimming, but give it moon gravity so that it aids recoveries and removes stalling.

The water was still present for long periods of time on that level, even if it did transform, enough that that if it were any other stalling tactic (that actually worked), you would have sufficient time for it.

This game is missing flow. The flow in this game is bad because of these nuances that don't add much to the game competitively. It isn't so much that "by the book" its a problem, its just that I think we can improve upon this mechanic. If we can keep the same sense of the mechanic but vastly improve its competitive value to the game, I don't see why we shouldn't.

I'm quite sure that is what we all aim to do, but what "adds to the game" or "makes it competitive" is subjective to every individual, and thus proper reasons are in order for these sort of changes to be made. I don't see how swimming is a nuance when it has not proven to be in competitive play in regular Brawl.

The edge game could be improved. Yes, there is more an edge game then vbrawl but it could be better. I'd rather my enemies out right die at 150% minimum from good DI rather than 100% with good DI.

Hm. Strange. I killed a Mario last night at 139% that had good DI when I hit him with Shuttle Loop at the edge of the stage when he jumped, and he's a mid weight character.

You're throwing numbers around. There's currently nothing wrong with the way the characters die right now.

It would give more reward for having good DI but your still not off the hook because you still need to get back to the ledge. If 2/3s the game is based on out right killing and 1/3 is edge guarding (which I feel it is atm), I think we could do better.

I think it is completely character dependent.

Its getting people off the stage and keeping them off that I find smash bros to be an exciting game and by widening the blast zones, we balance out the out right killing and the gimping parts to the game that I feel needs some work.

We don't need wider blast zones for this to become necessary.

I'd rather kill them because I had to step up my edge guarding game instead of outright killing them every time at 100% with good DI.

That is a personal preference.

With the addition of ledge teching if possible, actually allowing the players to be more rewarded for good DI and the opportunity to make it back if your opponent messes up at edge guarding IMO sounds like a better game and melee proved this to be true.

I do not see how this isn't the case now.

You missed the part where I said maybe we should consider nerfing gliding so it stops after 3 seconds (arbitrary).

Characters are at the heart of this game, not the stages. I do not support the need to remove a function of a character for the sake of making stages more ideal for your opinion on how the game should be played.

They still have a better recovery because they can glide but at least it won't be as out of proportion to the rest of the cast. I probably edited that while you were typing.

This is exactly like the Ice Climbers argument. The characters that can glide in question are given to characters who have proper attributes to support having this ability without being overly powerful. You don't give Snake or Falco the ability to glide. Gliding isn't an aspect of play that is proportionally imbalanced the moment it is applied to a character. The character as a whole is what counts.

Haha what new system Ulevo? I have been here since day one several months ago unlike you who just recently came into the scene. I have been there since hitstun came out and since hitlag came out and have adjusted a long long time ago so I am by no means inexperience to "the system"

Yes you are. Not only does this system keep changing and adapting, with new features and new mechanics being implemented or removed, but this version of Brawl hasn't been out for an extended period of time. It takes months and months to get familiar with a system in a fighting game. Hell, it was like what... Half a year to maybe eight months before I basically publicized momentum canceling with aerial attacks. Do you know how much that effected the game? It made characters survive significantly longer, and even led to techniques like Bucket Braking. That is a drastic alteration to the meta game. Just because you're familiar with the previous Brawl, and have been here while the updates have been being produced does not mean you're familiar with the game to the extent in which you can effectively say you're used to it in comparison to a seasoned pro in regular Brawl. That's not how it works.

And I'm willing to tell anyone that, not just you.

I also said that we wouldn't increase the stage size to being that big. A 5% increase in stage size does not make all stages the size of BoE. Myself and others have tried out the smaller characters code and agreed that a larger stage feels much better for the game and camping was no more a problem than it is now.

Small size increases are fine, but what you're proposing is to change the way the edge guarding game works by making the blastzones bigger. That's not necessarily the same thing.

You have MK for example who can Diar WoP you in the water because of his good recovery. Peach could do something similar because she can float and attack instead of the poorer recoveries who put themselves in a worse position by attempting to attack you in the water because they can get stuck in the water. So camping in the water on a frozen stage can be viable.

When it actually happens, I'll actually take notice to this. For now, it has yet to happen.

Basically, what I base my views on Brawl+ is this. I'm trying to help make the brawl Nintendo promised us.

Nintendo promised us nothing Kupo. That's all in your imagination. We all wanted Melee 2.0, but they were by no means obligated to deliver, nor did they announce that they would make a game even remotely similar. All you were informed on was that they were making Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and that to you could have been anything.

I pull everything good from all three games and included it or improve upon it. For example, melee had water which didn't do anything but brawl expanded upon it and allowed you to swim in it. Not seeing any competitive value to the new swimming aspect of the game made me think about removing it but I still wanted to make it different which is what Brawl did to the water; thus I suggested removing swimming and replacing it with moon gravity. This makes the water act less like walk off levels, which generally is not accepted by the community. So this trade off I feel takes a melee added feature and improves upon it in a positive, competitive way.

Again, there you go with saying it improves competitive play. How can you argue that? The only way something can actually decrease the value of competitive play is if it prevents competition. Tactics such as stalling are an example, or broken tactics. Removing water from the game doesn't improve competitive value anymore than putting in footstooling does, or taking away shield stun, or making Snakes Utilt hit box ridiculous. You can argue that the water actually does in fact promote stalling, which is a factor in decreasing competitive play (and one I have already addressed), but you make further argument to say that removing it makes the game flow better, and it is merely nuance.

Take gliding for example. Its a brawl feature that is a good feature but I feel its too powerful as is especially if we consider making the stages bigger. So instead of removing it because melee didn't have it, I proposed a small timer so you can't glide forever to help balance out the game.

If gliding was an over powered tactic like you stated, than the characters with that attribute in question would also be over powered. They are not. The only one you can even begin to argue is Meta Knight, and I am positive there is an reservoir of significantly better reasons you can come up with to suggest he's over powered other than the fact that he has wings and uses them.

 

[shanus]

Its rare to say that I 100% agree with everything said in an epicly long post. Well said Ulevo, very well said.

Water is a personal preference that does not detract from the game in my opinion whatsoever. In fact, it is more detrimental to some chars than it is beneficial to others. Its a part of a counterpick and a unique aspect which should not be removed.

Gliding – Leave it alone, its fine as is.

I understand your intentions to try and maximize Brawl+ (and I know we all have those intentions), but I also don't get how this game is missing flow or lacking in the edge game. Right now tons of punishment and variety occurs off the edge. I watched your matches and saw little attempts at edge game, (in fact barely any edge game at all and most of it was the same). Maybe these flaws you see require you to alter your playstyle to see different options available to you? Additionally, I watched your camera code and in the IRC people all agreed it was WAY too shakey still. It needs way less horizontal shakeyness to it, it made watching the youtube video still feel like motion sickness.

 

[kupo15]

The water was still present for long periods of time on that level, even if it did transform, enough that that if it were any other stalling tactic (that actually worked), you would have sufficient time for it.

I've seen matches at the tourneys I used to go at where the TLs would purposely wade in the water trying to look helpless then turn the tables when you got in. The only thing that stopped them was the stage that moved which won't be the case when its frozen.

I'm quite sure that is what we all aim to do, but what "adds to the game" or "makes it competitive" is subjective to every individual, and thus proper reasons are in order for these sort of changes to be made. I don't see how swimming is a nuance when it has not proven to be in competitive play in regular Brawl.

I guess we would actually have to have the code made and try it out to see which one is better for competitive play then, shall we?

Hm. Strange. I killed a Mario last night at 139% that had good DI when I hit him with Shuttle Loop at the edge of the stage when he jumped, and he's a mid weight character.

You're throwing numbers around. There's currently nothing wrong with the way the characters die right now.

Hmm, weren't you the one that said that the shuttle loop loses all its killing power when properly DIed? There are some moves that kill lower than that regardless of proper DI. A MK shuttle loop is not proof against killing percents being fine when not all moves act like the shuttle loop does when properly DIed especially if you are the one defending that move not being a low percent kill move when properly DIed.

We don't need wider blast zones for this to become necessary.

Yes you do because when you die, the "keeping them off" part doesn't work. Yes, it is more of a preference for at least trying it out. I would like to see more of an edge game develop and are you saying that you won't even give it a shot to see if the game turns out better especially when we have the code already made?

That is a personal preference.

Once again, regardless if it is a personal preference, I think it would be good for the game and would you be opposed to even trying it out of spite that it is an idea to improve the game out of preference? Melee showed how great the game could be when you take this approach to the gameplay which is what I am basing my opinion off of so the concept isn't foreign at all.

I do not see how this isn't the case now.

Because in this game if you get hit with a powerful attack near the end of the stage at around 100% (depending on the move and character of course), you die compared to melee where the same situation didn't occur until much later. Do I have exact percent data to back myself up? No but after playing it last night after brawl+, it was noticeable that melee killed more with gimps then it did outright deaths. I think we could improve this in brawl by finding a happy medium between the two. Once again, are you no even going to try it given that the code is already here when the new gecko comes out just because its an idea that has the potential to make the game better?

Characters are at the heart of this game, not the stages. I do not support the need to remove a function of a character for the sake of making stages more ideal for your opinion on how the game should be played.

Oh I realize that, but stages also play an important role to the game IMO. I never said "remove gliding" but posed a possible nerf to it. If you truly want to keep it as is, then fine, keep gliding as is and give the increased blast zone code a try.

The character as a whole is what counts.

Take MK for example. 6 jumps and 2 glides in addition to the many ways he could get back and how strong he is. Don't you think that being hard to approach and that he can come back from anywhere with his glide poses a bit of a problem that this could help? He would still have his glide combos also.

Yes you are. Not only does this system keep changing and adapting, with new features and new mechanics being implemented or removed, but this version of Brawl hasn't been out for an extended period of time. It takes months and months to get familiar with a system in a fighting game. Hell, it was like what... Half a year to maybe eight months before I basically publicized momentum canceling with aerial attacks. Do you know how much that effected the game? It made characters survive significantly longer, and even led to techniques like Bucket Braking. That is a drastic alteration to the meta game. Just because you're familiar with the previous Brawl, and have been here while the updates have been being produced does not mean you're familiar with the game to the extent in which you can effectively say you're used to it in comparison to a seasoned pro in regular Brawl. That's not how it works.

And I'm willing to tell anyone that, not just you.

But in relation to poor DI, hitlag and hitstun are the main things associated with it which I have had experience for several months now. Nothing else can change so much that would cause me to suck at DI enough to invalidate my points.

Small size increases are fine, but what you're proposing is to change the way the edge guarding game works by making the blastzones bigger. That's not necessarily the same thing.

Well, when you increase stage size, the blast zones don't change unless you want a bigger stage and even smaller blastzones

Nintendo promised us nothing Kupo. That's all in your imagination. We all wanted Melee 2.0, but they were by no means obligated to deliver, nor did they announce that they would make a game even remotely similar. All you were informed on was that they were making Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and that to you could have been anything.

Stop twisting my words. You know what I meant

 

[Ulevo]

I've seen matches at the tourneys I used to go at where the TLs would purposely wade in the water trying to look helpless then turn the tables when you got in. The only thing that stopped them was the stage that moved which won't be the case when its frozen.

I've seen and experienced matches where Falco would do nothing but SHDL and Phantasm, along with a Smash to KO, to win a match. What is your point?

If the tactic is overbearing (being vBrawl in this case), I'm quite sure it would have been noted and dealt with by now, much the same way that circumstances like Luigis Mansion have been banned from use in tournament. I'm looking for results here Kupo, not situational examples.

I guess we would actually have to have the code made and try it out to see which one is better for competitive play then, shall we?

That would be the better solution. Of course, I am willing to try out any code if it presents a possibility of improving the game for the community. It's the coders you need to convince, along with everyone else.

Hmm, weren't you the one that said that the shuttle loop loses all its killing power when properly DIed?

I stated it wasn't overpowered, and that was largely due to because of how significantly its effectiveness dropped when proper DI was used. I didn't say it lost all of its killing power. Details, details.

There are some moves that kill lower than that regardless of proper DI. A MK shuttle loop is not proof against killing percents being fine when not all moves act like the shuttle loop does when properly DIed especially if you are the one defending that move not being a low percent kill move when properly DIed.

I used Shuttle Loop as an example because it was convenient, since I had raw numbers off hand that I could use, as well as the fact that Shuttle Loop is regarded as a move that kills quite early by many people. You were the one who said that you'd prefer to play a game where your opponent died at 150% even with good DI. It was an example I had.

But you're correct, I was the one who was against the notion. Ironically enough though, you stated that not all moves act like Shuttle Loop. They don't all have to. Can you prove to me that others don't though? Unless we start throwing out numbers here, we're just playing theory craft, and quite honestly, I live to decent percents from quite a few things, so I see no need to take my battle to that end of an argument.

Yes you do because when you die, the "keeping them off" part doesn't work. Yes, it is more of a preference for at least trying it out. I would like to see more of an edge game develop and are you saying that you won't even give it a shot to see if the game turns out better especially when we have the code already made?

I never said I wouldn't try it provided codes were made to make it happen. But you're suggesting this is the best for the "competitive" aspect of Brawl Plus. There's a difference.

Once again, regardless if it is a personal preference, I think it would be good for the game and would you be opposed to even trying it out of spite that it is an idea to improve the game out of preference? Melee showed how great the game could be when you take this approach to the gameplay which is what I am basing my opinion off of so the concept isn't foreign at all.

And you have a valid point. Melee was a fantastic game, as most would agree. To derive experience and data from it is the most logical thing to do, since we can't look to Brawl, for obvious reasons, on ways to implement improvements that work, outside of our imagination. However, that said, this is a different game, and you can't guarantee that your changes will be ensured for the best of the community just because it worked for Melee. They are still in fact different games.

Because in this game if you get hit with a powerful attack near the end of the stage at around 100% (depending on the move and character of course), you die compared to melee where the same situation didn't occur until much later.

The importance in this quote is bolded. I don't think I need to say much else.

Do I have exact percent data to back myself up? No but after playing it last night after brawl+, it was noticeable that melee killed more with gimps then it did outright deaths. I think we could improve this in brawl by finding a happy medium between the two.

Well then for your sake, since you're the one who wants to implement some sort of change, I suggest you start providing examples of how there is not already a happy balance between the two. If you cannot, it probably points to subjective argument on your end, and again... We all know what happens from there.

Once again, are you no even going to try it given that the code is already here when the new gecko comes out just because its an idea that has the potential to make the game better?

I never once said I wouldn't try it, assuming you actually have the codes to provide me.

Take MK for example. 6 jumps and 2 glides in addition to the many ways he could get back and how strong he is. Don't you think that being hard to approach and that he can come back from anywhere with his glide poses a bit of a problem that this could help? He would still have his glide combos also.

Reducing any aspect of a characters game will ultimately reduce that characters potential. I don't see what point you're trying to make.

But in relation to poor DI, hitlag and hitstun are the main things associated with it which I have had experience for several months now. Nothing else can change so much that would cause me to suck at DI enough to invalidate my points.

For arguments sake, I don't even know if you do in fact DI properly, so this really is a void discussion anyway.

Well, when you increase stage size, the blast zones don't change unless you want a bigger stage and even smaller blastzones

Fair enough.

Stop twisting my words. You know what I meant

I did not twist words. I took the literal meaning that was in text directly from what I was reading. I am not going to assume what you mean in a debate, I'll take your wording for its literal meaning. Assuming your implications would only lead me to false accusations potentially, and probably a poor argument. If you want me to understand you better, I suggest you properly communicate what it is you are trying to explain.