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Stage thread

ZodiakLucien

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
623
Location
Walnut Creek, Ca
with all the new member I think its worth bumping this to get new ideas in. I think there is still a lot that can be done with the stages that are just taking up space. Personally I really want to see aero drive reworked to be a counterpick. I think it can be done with just some tweaking on the knockback and damage of the cars. The windmill on ps1 is still a pain too.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
Wow, this wall of text is extremely daunting. There were a few points brought up / changes suggested that I'd like to respond to. These points are not terribly important, but they stand out to me since I'm a Jigglypuff main.

What I would like most is not the addition of a lot of new stages (though Warioware is great), its the widespread acceptance of the "borderline" stages. We'll make more progress by fixing up iffy stages than revamping banned ones. Those stages are meant for drunken FFAs anyway.

1. The cars on Mute City Aero Dive: I can't see many people objecting to removing them, and I honestly can't see it as a counterpick otherwise. While the cars are certainly avoidable, they really disrupt the match and can just flat-out KO a person not familiar with the stage. While its easy to say, "It's their fault for not knowing the stage." the stage isn't generally CP anyway so how many people actually know it well?

Removing the cars or tremendously reducing their knockback will make this stage more... palatable to most people, and it truly is a really interesting, unique stage. I would love for it to be consistently legal. Booo car Johns!

2. Jungle Japes: the klaptrap, like the cars, is completely predictable. It appears every 10 seconds on the 7. H***, I float all around it as Jiggs. Its way less of an issue than the cars... BUT people hate it. I don't think it needs to go entirely by any means.

The above applies to the friendly, lazy, and docile klaptrap. The psychotic jumping klaptrap is another matter entirely. By which I mean, slightly more worth removing, as it is waaaay more dangerous and its movement is less predictable.

3. The water flow on Japes: its speed could be lowered, but the water is supposed to be scary and hostile. I mean, it has a f***ing gator. Definitely not something that has to be changed in a counterpick stage.

4. The bulborb on Distant Planet: If you feed someone to the Bulborb, it is profoundly satisfying. If you randomly get eaten by the bulborb, you are an idiot. Basically its about as bad as leisurely strolling into a reverse-warlock punch.

The lack of auto-sweetspotting makes it more possible to use the bulborb, but seriously, in competitive play... :laugh:

Leave the creature alone!

5. The rain on Distant Planet.: should be on continuously, and slowed down somewhat. Walk offs of any kind should still be avoided, especially given Pikachu's ****-throw.

6. A bazillion stages: It would be hard to make stages legal without risking homogeneity. It would also wreck the CP system, as Chibo pointed out. On the other hand, if the snazzy coolness of some of the banned stages was left intact, it could be worthwhile. Having something that offers genuinely new and varied options would be great, but we don't want a bunch of clones.

7. The Waiting Room: bears a startling resemblance to another flat, platformless neutral stage. This illustrates the problem for the CP system pretty well.

Its a little intimidating here with the caliber of posters... but those are my initially thoughts, I'll post more soon.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
My opinion on the WFWR is that if it is to be made legal, then for all practical purposes it should be counted as the same stage as FD as far as counterpicking is concerned. Therefore, if a player wins on FD the first round, they can't cpick WFWR later on, or vice-versa. Also, if a player picks FD as their stage ban, it would also serve as a ban to WFWR.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
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Project MD
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JCaesar
My opinion on the WFWR is that if it is to be made legal, then for all practical purposes it should be counted as the same stage as FD as far as counterpicking is concerned. Therefore, if a player wins on FD the first round, they can't cpick WFWR later on, or vice-versa. Also, if a player picks FD as their stage ban, it would also serve as a ban to WFWR.
The only problem is, very few people would actually adhere to that in tourney. People are dumb and they like things simple.

Then again, as long as the good players know what they're doing and follow this, it doesn't really matter what everyone else is doing.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
wouldn't that basically kill the point of having WR? I mean most people think FD looks nicer etc. and if they are counted as being the same we could basically remove it.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
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JCaesar
Well there are some real differences that do affect matchups, like lower ceiling, much wider overall stage, and no gay lips under the ledges.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
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Aug 13, 2007
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テキサス、アメリカ
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GHNeko
I've already made a rule for tourneys concerning Wifi Room.

It's called the "FD Rule" and basically says, the player that bans FD has the option of banning WWR as well, and vise versa (If you ban WWR, you can ban FD) and it only counts as a single stage strike.

The minor changes between the stage adhere somewhat differently between playstyles, characters, and match ups. :V

Also...

I dont care who you are, you can't say this would be the most pimp CP ever.

 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Kent Lakes, New York
I dont care who you are, you can't say this would be the most pimp CP ever.

*"Awesome CP here"*
That CP is in fact awesome and sooo not a clone. :bee:

I've already made a rule for tourneys concerning Wifi Room.

It's called the "FD Rule" and basically says, the player that bans FD has the option of banning WWR as well, and vise versa (If you ban WWR, you can ban FD) and it only counts as a single stage strike.
My opinion on the WFWR is that if it is to be made legal, then for all practical purposes it should be counted as the same stage as FD as far as counterpicking is concerned. Therefore, if a player wins on FD the first round, they can't cpick WFWR later on, or vice-versa. Also, if a player picks FD as their stage ban, it would also serve as a ban to WFWR.
This is a perfectly acceptable solution imo.

The only problem is, very few people would actually adhere to that in tourney. People are dumb and they like things simple.

Then again, as long as the good players know what they're doing and follow this, it doesn't really matter what everyone else is doing.
JCaesar007 vs. JCaersar007. The epic struggle continues.

I think JCaesar007 came out on top this time.

So uh, that's 3.5 in favor of this way of dealing with FD and BleachD.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
If were going to make rules practically saying how WR and FD are the same, then there is absolutely no reason to have WR especially with how dull and monotuous it is, and with a **** dollar bill floatin around lol.

Seriously guys...

In reply to leafgreen on pg 1 saying we should strive to make as many legal stages as possible:

NOOOOOOOOOOO

The reason being: by somehow creating so many different stages we end up with two problems:

Too many neutral stages: The Smash community has evolved to liking the stage strike system for the first match. Currently vBrawl is at 5 stages (or 9 according to the SBR), and most B+ lists are at 7. Those are ok numbers for remembering who strikes which stage (though 9 is starting to push it, and I don't want to visit the stage select screen everytime just to keep track, too much time) so with all of these new stages, Hyrule Temple, New Pork, all these Castle Siege transformations, Spear Pillar, you're adding TONS of neutrals. We can't do stage striking with like 17 stages. It's just not feasible. Not to mention it's boring since so many of the stages will end up being similar and people might argue with boundary problems that we have control over.

Banning Counterpicks Won't Make Sense Anymore: People have a ban in a tourney set to take out a level that hurts them the most or that they don't like. But with like 80,000 legal stages, even if the player bans a stage they don't like, there will be a greater chance that there will be another legal stage that is just like the stage they banned, making their ban worthless.
ITS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF YOU NOW AND INSTEAD OF REALIZING WHAT YOU ARE DOING YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO CREATE MORE POINTLESS RULES TO COVER UP YOUR MISTAKES.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
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JCaesar
They are very different. Pretty much the only thing they have in common is a lack of platforms.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Mar 20, 2006
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
Yes, they are very different, indeed. However, that archetype gives very distinct advantages and disadvantages to certain characters, meaning while the differences between the two stages will inevitably mean the difference in many matchups, the general stage archetype will be by far the most critical feature in CPing. Therefore, it is still necessary that some sort of rule be instituted that treats WFWR and FD the same.

chibo said:
ITS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF YOU NOW AND INSTEAD OF REALIZING WHAT YOU ARE DOING YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO CREATE MORE POINTLESS RULES TO COVER UP YOUR MISTAKES.
The first step is admitting you have a problem. The second step is realizing you don't care.

The point is, even if the stages are very similar, they do present differences, and this rule does handle the main problem of having both stages legal. Instead of just shutting down the possibility to expand our stage selection at the risk of hurting the CP system, we should be trying to come up with ways to make it work.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
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Kent Lakes, New York
They are very different. Pretty much the only thing they have in common is a lack of platforms.
Which is substantially more significant that anything else about the stage.

Instead of just shutting down the possibility to expand our stage selection at the risk of hurting the CP system, we should be trying to come up with ways to make it work.
Yes. Why is an additional rule that bad? It makes sense that a new game will have a modified ruleset.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
So yea. We can do a few of these now, so lets do this.

Spawn Points/Size changes:
Bridge of Eldin
New Pork City

Special Codes:
Skyworld
Distant Planet
Port Town Aero Drive
Green Hill Zone
Spear Pillar

Wall damages:
Shadow Moses Island
Luigi's Mansion

Speed change:
Jungle Japes
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
We slowed down MK 1 and we need to figure out 2.

Just know that we can fix at least Jungle Japes right now. I wish PK would work on these.
 
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