Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Shirma Akayaku]

Man, I was playing on Hyrule Castle, and it's like... a really good stage. Like, super fun and exciting to play on. It has a wall and a short ceiling but not enough to be harmful, just enough to play around with, and the platforms are in interesting places.

I'd love it as a stage, but... those tornadoes, man. They'd be fine if they couldn't surprise you, and for all intents and purposes they rarely do, but they have the potential to and that makes doubt its chances.

Peach's castle seems fine.

I think Peach's Castle is fine too. I hope it becomes a counter-pick. I feel like it has a good chance of becoming one because of the grabbable ledges now.

 

[Opana]

Hyrule Castle seems to be a good CP, reminds me a bit of Duck Hunt tbh with the center platforms but more accessible. Camping the very edge can be beneficial to some such as Rosalina or Villager but worse for others like the Links, Spacies, Mega Man etc. Tornado seems to rarely appear, it's less intrusive than Halberd imo despite having no way of knowing when it'll happen as we have a general idea of where. I don't know much of what the tornado is capable of however, but even so I do not think it'll severely damage the potential of it being legal. The reasons why I could see it not being legal mainly fall on it benefiting Rosa, Villager, and Pikachu amongst others potentially while hindering those already less equipped to deal with those characters. Weighing the good and the bad, however, leads me to believe it'll be a passable cp.

Also, what does the tornado do to Luma? This could be important in it's legality imo.

 

[Krysco]

The tornado doesn't do a thing to Luma. The tornado is a essentially a grab box since it can't be shielded and grabs don't affect Luma or anything that isn't a playable character.

 

[MajorMajora]

A stage being good for a character is not a valid reason to ban it.

 

[Opana]

A stage being good for a character is not a valid reason to ban it.

I think if a stage is too beneficial for certain characters it can be unhealthy for the meta. That being said I don't think this is the case although admittedly I haven't been able to test much.

 

[Ghostbone]

Hyrule castle is awful guys

You can just camp the right side, your opponent has to approach from above which is really unfair, plus the cave of life lets you live forever.

Also Pikachu can time out a billion characters with just quick attack there.

 

[Opana]

Pikachu may be a pretty big issue since he can camp easily as well as the QACing you mentioned. I need to fight more opponents before I get a proper opinion on the green house camping though. Pretty sure QACing is crazier on Dream Land but the raised ground layout with the green house protection sounds pretty bad combined with that sounds pretty bad.

 

[Ghostbone]

Dreamland is small enough that you can cover the space Pikachu moves to, Hyrule is way way way too big.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I really like Peachs Castle. Hyrule Castle not so much.

 

[Kulty]

Hi everyone,

So I did have memories and big nostalgia with the N64 stages like Hyrule Castle and Peach's Castle. However, before I attempted to buy these stages, I decided to watch replays of how these two stages work. I've done this, because I only want to buy DLC stages that are tournament legal (starter and counterpick included). After watching replays and replays about these two stages :

Peach's Castle 64 : There's the bumper which can avoid vertical kills and the two triangle walls on the side which can allow opponents to live a little bit longer. You can thankfully grab the ledges on both sides (THANK GOD, which was not in the original Smash 64) and on the kinda stairs (not sure how to say it). Ceiling quite low! My bet is that this stage could possibly be a counterpick in singles. I think it was a counterpick stage in the Smash 64 ruleset as well. Also, MUSIC SO AWESOME, especially the remix of the main theme of Mario 64 (NOSTALGIA of my first video game I've ever played)!

Hyrule Castle 64 : I don't have to go too deep on this. This stage is OBVIOUSLY BANNED in singles. Too big and the tornado which does kill early for some random reason (does it kill early in Smash 64? Forgot about it). As for doubles, maybe counterpick, but just to make sure, I'll probably consider this as a banned stage for now. Don't see it being tournament legal to be honest. MUSIC DEFINITELY GREAT, love the new medley of The Legend of Zelda!

What do you think guys? I just want to confirm if these two stages are tournament legal or not before I buy them! If one or both of them are tournament legal (as counterpicks mostly), I'll buy them! If not, well... just forget it! Even if it's nostalgia, I won't buy them even if they were one of my favorites back in Smash 64!

DLC bought so far : along with Suzaku Castle and Dream Land 64.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on Peach's Castle 64. Already talked to folks like Tantalus and a few others on Twitter, most people believe with teching basically every match will go to time on the stage so they won't be legalizing it.

 

[MajorMajora]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on Peach's Castle 64. Already talked to folks like Tantalus and a few others on Twitter, most people believe with teching basically every match will go to time on the stage so they won't be legalizing it.

Believe? Believe???

Seriously, screw Smash 4 ban culture. I'mma go over some points as to why it sucks big fat donkey-ass

1. You (general you not talking to SmashCapps) don't know peach's castle will be problematic. So why in the world would you ban it? It has no features that are proven to be unhealthy, but we have a guess, so you ban it off the bat? And you just assume you are right? That is either hubris or paranoia, either one is illogical, and that's a problem. If you are acting off of either of those as a TO you should fix that.

2. Not a response to the above post, but holy crap can people stop banning things over their silly little opinions on what makes a meta "healthy"? There's so much wrong with this. First of all, many people have an oversimplified idea of what makes for a good meta. Many think that as long as nothing's broken everything's fine, so we should stamp out anything thats cares us. This is completely horrible and is the wrong way to go.

Centralizing strategies are a good thing. They draw attention, engage people, and force people to be inventive in working around them. Everyone hated villager, but Capt. Awesum's matches got more attention than any other match below top 8. They were Hype. And most people find villager horrible to watch. That says something about what these strategies can do. And even if these strategies are strong, and they get people to not play Sheik and not play on Smashville, then hallelujah. Amen. Praise Sakurai and all that is blessed because it's about damn time. The strategies are never as strong as people theorycraft them to be, so they probably won't be outright destructive, just a bit annoying to play against.

Oh, that reminds me, something being annoying is another horrible reason to ban something. People should learn to beat it. Adapt to it. But what do people do? They remove the challenge. They take away the obstacle. The moment Smash 4 shows signs of growth they stomp it out in a desperate attempt to keep things the same, maybe sans what characters are in the top tier (which, surprise surprise, is just one way a meta can grow). Because most of these strategies will become less strong and centralizing over time, and then smash 4 will become a game with many different powerful strategies. And that'll make an interesting meta of experimentation and new things. Or we could just ban anything stronger than Sheik on Smashville or with psuedo ban anything with more to it than flat+plats.

It's not our job to ban things we don't like, but to ban things we need to. A tear should be shed for each stage we must eliminate. People should have as many tools available to learn, exploit, explore, and counter in the smash meta game. This isn't a new concept, it's been around for years. It's basic fighting game philosophy that Smash seems to be incapable of getting it's head around, possibly since we need to ban so many things in order to get a unified ruleset (no items, only stock, etc.). I've supported many things in favor of a "better meta", but that was me trying to unban things that should have never been banned (custom moves, things being sent to the wasteland that is the counterpick list, a concept entirely devoid of logic or self-awareness). Ban culture is born of paranoia and hubris. Don't have excessive paranoia or hubris. Get direct TV. We do want Smash 4 to be a good and interesting fighting game, right? Or do we just want short-sighted comfort in a lack of excitement or upsets in what we arrogantly assume is they way things are meant to be, out of fear of the unknown? (See what I did there? I incorporated paranoia and hubriss as fear and arrogance to make an accusatory rhetorical question. ...I thought it was slick...)

tl;dr, stop banning things for really dumb reasons like fear of the unknown. This applies to custom moves and FLSS stage striking in a way too but that's for another time.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Believe? Believe???

Seriously, screw Smash 4 ban culture. I'mma go over some points as to why it sucks big fat donkey-***

1. You (general you not talking to SmashCapps) don't know peach's castle will be problematic. So why in the world would you ban it? It has no features that are proven to be unhealthy, but we have a guess, so you ban it off the bat? And you just assume you are right? That is either hubris or paranoia, either one is illogical, and that's a problem. If you are acting off of either of those as a TO you should fix that.

2. Not a response to the above post, but holy crap can people stop banning things over their silly little opinions on what makes a meta "healthy"? There's so much wrong with this. First of all, many people have an oversimplified idea of what makes for a good meta. Many think that as long as nothing's broken everything's fine, so we should stamp out anything thats cares us. This is completely horrible and is the wrong way to go.

Centralizing strategies are a good thing. They draw attention, engage people, and force people to be inventive in working around them. Everyone hated villager, but Capt. Awesum's matches got more attention than any other match below top 8. They were Hype. And most people find villager horrible to watch. That says something about what these strategies can do. And even if these strategies are strong, and they get people to not play Sheik and not play on Smashville, then hallelujah. Amen. Praise Sakurai and all that is blessed because it's about damn time. The strategies are never as strong as people theorycraft them to be, so they probably won't be outright destructive, just a bit annoying to play against.

Oh, that reminds me, something being annoying is another horrible reason to ban something. People should learn to beat it. Adapt to it. But what do people do? They remove the challenge. They take away the obstacle. The moment Smash 4 shows signs of growth they stomp it out in a desperate attempt to keep things the same, maybe sans what characters are in the top tier (which, surprise surprise, is just one way a meta can grow). Because most of these strategies will become less strong and centralizing over time, and then smash 4 will become a game with many different powerful strategies. And that'll make an interesting meta of experimentation and new things. Or we could just ban anything stronger than Sheik on Smashville or with psuedo ban anything with more to it than flat+plats.

It's not our job to ban things we don't like, but to ban things we need to. A tear should be shed for each stage we must eliminate. People should have as many tools available to learn, exploit, explore, and counter in the smash meta game. This isn't a new concept, it's been around for years. It's basic fighting game philosophy that Smash seems to be incapable of getting it's head around, possibly since we need to ban so many things in order to get a unified ruleset (no items, only stock, etc.). I've supported many things in favor of a "better meta", but that was me trying to unban things that should have never been banned (custom moves, things being sent to the wasteland that is the counterpick list, a concept entirely devoid of logic or self-awareness). Ban culture is born of paranoia and hubris. Don't have excessive paranoia or hubris. Get direct TV. We do want Smash 4 to be a good and interesting fighting game, right? Or do we just want short-sighted comfort in a lack of excitement or upsets in what we arrogantly assume is they way things are meant to be, out of fear of the unknown? (See what I did there? I incorporated paranoia and hubriss as fear and arrogance to make an accusatory rhetorical question. ...I thought it was slick...)

tl;dr, stop banning things for really dumb reasons like fear of the unknown. This applies to custom moves and FLSS stage striking in a way too but that's for another time.

I definitely feel like it's time to allow DK 64 and peach's castle 64 in singles, as counter picks. Counter pick's should be unorthodox being able to favor the player even if not the character of their choosing entirely.

 

[MajorMajora]

I definitely feel like it's time to allow DK 64 and peach's castle 64 in singles, as counter picks. Counter pick's should be unorthodox being able to favor the player even if not the character of their choosing entirely.

Starter/CP lists are a stupid idea. What purpose does a starter list have? It's supposed to make game 1 more 'fair'. This can be percieved in 2 ways: removing randomness that will make skill less important, and stop the matchup from favoring one of the characters a disproportionate amount.
A: Any stage that is random enough to be problem should be banned in the first place, so separating starter from CP is pointless in that regard
B: Aiming for making the most even matchup possible between 2 characters is a bad thing to do since there's supposed to be some uneven matchups. What we should aim for is the median match up between the 2 characters, which can only be done across the board with FLSS
C: Starter lists have almost never been based on matchup data, but instead how many dynamic elements are present in a stage (which is is an irrelevant factor to measure except for in very specific matchups, and the list should be big picture so that still wouldn't matter).
D: CP lists are pseudo banning stages that have don't deserve a ban. Bans should be last resort measures, or something close to that. The idea of splitting them into these categories from the get go is in that way flawed.

 

[chaos11011]

Starter lists should only exist, in my opinion, if they weren't determined by lack of dynamic elements but instead, a list of stages that were genuinely balanced throughout the entire cast. Get the list of each character's best and worst stages in order, add them all up, and find 5 of those stages in the medium to be the starters. That is a genuine starter list.

Though, ultimately, I think FLSS is the superior format because unlike starter lists, it allows players to consider preference and not just statistics, which is also a pretty huge factor of balance because I could be X character and Y could be considered my best stage in terms of match up theory, but I feel more comfortable going to Z because I feel like I can play out my strengths / seek my opponent's weaknesses better. Since you can't do that with starter lists, you could end up going to a stage that isn't truly balanced, as all the cards weren't in play to determine the true neutral stage game 1.

 

[MajorMajora]

Starter lists should only exist, in my opinion, if they weren't determined by lack of dynamic elements but instead, a list of stages that were genuinely balanced throughout the entire cast. Get the list of each character's best and worst stages in order, add them all up, and find 5 of those stages in the medium to be the starters. That is a genuine starter list.

Though, ultimately, I think FLSS is the superior format because unlike starter lists, it allows players to consider preference and not just statistics, which is also a pretty huge factor of balance because I could be X character and Y could be considered my best stage in terms of match up theory, but I feel more comfortable going to Z because I feel like I can play out my strengths / seek my opponent's weaknesses better. Since you can't do that with starter lists, you could end up going to a stage that isn't truly balanced, as all the cards weren't in play to determine the true neutral stage game 1.

Not to mention that the thing you said in the beginning is not only impossible to achieve, since there will be outlier characters for each stage, but the definition of what makes the 'most balanced stages' is really hard to define. Do you make it so that all characters will have the most even match ups possible? Well, characters in the bottom tiers will have more bad matchups, so in order to achieve the most even matchups ou'd have to pick stage that favor the lower tiered characters. Is that really fair? It's a problem that is never going to be solved, and I see no reason in trying. FLSS works just fine, so there's no need to find a more convoluted solution to something we already have solved.

 

[Buffoon]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on Peach's Castle 64. Already talked to folks like Tantalus and a few others on Twitter, most people believe with teching basically every match will go to time on the stage so they won't be legalizing it.

These people realize that the gray "bumpers" on both sides of the stages are constantly shifting position, right? Even then, they're assuming that everyone can reliable tech each time they bounce off the "bumpers"?

 

[Kulty]

These people realize that the gray "bumpers" on both sides of the stages are constantly shifting position, right? Even then, they're assuming that everyone can reliable tech each time they bounce off the "bumpers"?

That's what I'm kinda scared about Peach Castle because you can live at ridiculous high percents (with good teching) that you may just time out the match! I really don't know what to do about the two stages. I want to buy mainly for nostalgia and music, but what really holds back is the fact that if they're tournament legal stages or not. If they're legal, I'll buy them. If not, then no thanks! I just really don't know what to do! I need help for this and confirmation! Besides, how much time approximately does it take to really consider as tournament legal or not after discussions?

 

[Geno9999]

That's what I'm kinda scared about Peach Castle because you can live at ridiculous high percents (with good teching) that you may just time out the match! I really don't know what to do about the two stages. I want to buy mainly for nostalgia and music, but what really holds back is the fact that if they're tournament legal stages or not. If they're legal, I'll buy them. If not, then no thanks! I just really don't know what to do! I need help for this and confirmation! Besides, how much time approximately does it take to really consider as tournament legal or not after discussions?

I say buy them regardless if they're legal stages or not, they're very fun to play on anyway.

 

[MajorMajora]

I say buy them regardless if they're legal stages or not, they're very fun to play on anyway.

Tell me about it. I feel like Hyrule Castle is one of the best stages ever. It's so much fun.

Peach's Castle, well, I think it's competitively viable, but then again I'm pretty progressive when it comes to my views on stage lists.

 

[Kulty]

I say buy them regardless if they're legal stages or not, they're very fun to play on anyway.

That's just me, but I would rather play them on their original game rather than just buying them! I really want them to be tournament legal. That's what encourages me of buying DLC stages like Dream Land 64. They're pretty fun indeed, but I would just rather wait and see official confirmation if they're banned or not. That's just me though! I rarely or never do play on banned tournament stages, whether they're fun or not!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I just came back from a small tourney I TO'd and I was so bold to include Peach's Castle 64 in our stage list.
I actually ended up playing on it a few times and so far, I sadly have to admit that the ramps are indeed a problem.
Both players ended up surviving about 3-4 attacks they really shouldn't have per round in every match that I played or observed.
Only one game went to time, but if people start to know where to stand I really can see this being a legit problem.

 

[Infinite901]

So I just came back from a small tourney I TO'd and I was so bold to include Peach's Castle 64 in our stage list.
I actually ended up playing on it a few times and so far, I sadly have to admit that the ramps are indeed a problem.
Both players ended up surviving about 3-4 attacks they really shouldn't have per round in every match that I played or observed.
Only one game went to time, but if people start to know where to stand I really can see this being a legit problem.

Alright guys, here's an example of how you get a stage banned. This person tested it out in a legitimate tournament and found a major problem. They didn't simply go "Oh maybe you can tech" they went out and checked. Thanks.

It is indeed sad that they're a problem, but I don't exactly have a way to argue against them. Peach's 64 is probs gonna stay banned, which is sad since I had hope for it.

 

[MajorMajora]

Alright guys, here's an example of how you get a stage banned. This person tested it out in a legitimate tournament and found a major problem. They didn't simply go "Oh maybe you can tech" they went out and checked. Thanks.

It is indeed sad that they're a problem, but I don't exactly have a way to argue against them. Peach's 64 is probs gonna stay banned, which is sad since I had hope for it.

As much as I agree, I do have one problem. Even this is too hasty. It's too small a sample size, we don't know the characters/ player playstyles, the stage was just introduced, and it's by word of mouth, not even a video. And matches taking longer is not a valid reason for banning a stage. Like, it's a really dumb reason to ban a stage. Nothing is gamebreaking, we just take a few extra minutes each time the stage is picked. There could even be strategies to this. What if I want a longer game because I, as a player, take time to learn my opponent? This stage could help me, and that's a good thing. it adds strategy and depth. Not to mention the stage has small blastzones to begin with. We have caves of life banned because you can just go to one and survive forever. The fact that they weren't consistently going to time there is evidence that the stage is not ban-worthy.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

As much as I agree, I do have one problem. Even this is too hasty. It's too small a sample size, we don't know the characters/ player playstyles, the stage was just introduced, and it's by word of mouth, not even a video. And matches taking longer is not a valid reason for banning a stage. Like, it's a really dumb reason to ban a stage. Nothing is gamebreaking, we just take a few extra minutes each time the stage is picked. There could even be strategies to this. What if I want a longer game because I, as a player, take time to learn my opponent? This stage could help me, and that's a good thing. it adds strategy and depth. Not to mention the stage has small blastzones to begin with. We have caves of life banned because you can just go to one and survive forever. The fact that they weren't consistently going to time there is evidence that the stage is not ban-worthy.

The fact that they didn't go to time consistently is mainly related to lack of player skill and lack of stage knowledge.
Of course this is too hasty, it's just one sample. Thing is even players that didn't really know what they are doing did survive stuff they shouldn't have.
If you stand on the top it's very easy to hit the upper parts, if you stand on the base it's easy to tech the bottom parts of the ramps.
Combined with the combo breaking bumper, someone who knows what he is doing has an easy time not getting killed.
I won't drop the stage out of our locals yet, but I can't really see it stay there.

 

[MajorMajora]

The fact that they didn't go to time consistently is mainly related to lack of player skill and lack of stage knowledge.
Of course this is too hasty, it's just one sample. Thing is even players that didn't really know what they are doing did survive stuff they shouldn't have.
If you stand on the top it's very easy to hit the upper parts, if you stand on the base it's easy to tech the bottom parts of the ramps.
Combined with the combo breaking bumper, someone who knows what he is doing has an easy time not getting killed.
I won't drop the stage out of our locals yet, but I can't really see it stay there.

So what you're saying is that a player who takes the time to learn the stage can derive an advantage from it? Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Ghostbone]

So what you're saying is that a player who takes the time to learn the stage can derive an advantage from it? Isn't that a good thing?

Players who take time to learn the stage will never (ok they'll eventually mess up) die because it's relatively simple to DI into the ramps and tech.

Caves of life are bad, it's the same reason we have stuff like Skyworld and Luigi's Mansion banned.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I think it depends on the reasons you keep a stage on a stage list, whether or not we should include Peach's Castle.

Does Peach's Castle marginalize all skill? Of course it doesn't. It's certainly a skill to tech, as it is a skill to know where to stand on the stage to ensure your survival.

Does Peach's Castle present gameplay that we don't want to see? I would argue it does, and that it does so using stage elements, namely the metal wedges, not present on any other legal stage. And I am of the opinion that we can decide to ban it as a community for this reason. There's a real strength in choosing stages that create gameplay we want to see, rather than including "all" stages on some principal.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So what you're saying is that a player who takes the time to learn the stage can derive an advantage from it? Isn't that a good thing?

This applies to every single stage in the game. The difference here is that the advantage results in timeouts.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Starter/CP lists are a stupid idea. What purpose does a starter list have? It's supposed to make game 1 more 'fair'. This can be percieved in 2 ways: removing randomness that will make skill less important, and stop the matchup from favoring one of the characters a disproportionate amount.
A: Any stage that is random enough to be problem should be banned in the first place, so separating starter from CP is pointless in that regard
B: Aiming for making the most even matchup possible between 2 characters is a bad thing to do since there's supposed to be some uneven matchups. What we should aim for is the median match up between the 2 characters, which can only be done across the board with FLSS
C: Starter lists have almost never been based on matchup data, but instead how many dynamic elements are present in a stage (which is is an irrelevant factor to measure except for in very specific matchups, and the list should be big picture so that still wouldn't matter).
D: CP lists are pseudo banning stages that have don't deserve a ban. Bans should be last resort measures, or something close to that. The idea of splitting them into these categories from the get go is in that way flawed.

ABCD, some regions play with only 3 starters lmao if you say things like that to regions like that you end up with them say ok we'll only play on 3 stages then no counter picks. I went to a tournament today with only 3 starters in a city that usually has 5 or more. The moment we say goodbye to counter picks is the moment we lose the stages as picks at all.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

ABCD, some regions play with only 3 starters lmao if you say things like that to regions like that you end up with them say ok we'll only play on 3 stages then no counter picks. I went to a tournament today with only 3 starters in a city that usually has 5 or more. The moment we say goodbye to counter picks is the moment we lose the stages as picks at all.

Wait, do I understand you correctly that you are implying a FLSS results in less stage diversity?

 

[Razputin13]

The best Smash 4 player in the world, along with another top player and two others of decent skill playing the most launch-happy character in the game for a total of 40 stocks on Peach's Castle. Special thanks for Zero and Jtails for bringing the skill, Alpharad for making the video, and Dad, for being the guinea pig who got launched into every hazard repeatedly! And it's 5 AM here and I have nothing better to do than analyze this video to research Peach's Castle legality, so here's the rundown:

Spoiler

1. At 1:18, Jtails backairs Dad into the bottom of a bumper, but Dad didn't tech and died. If the bumper hadn't been there, he would most likely have died anyways, due to poor recovery. If he had teched, it looks like there's a chance he could have made it back, though he would have been in an edge-guard situation. Ambiguous
2. At about 1:50, Dad was launched by Zero's warlock punch and he hit the bumper, but the hit wouldn't have killed him regardless, and it only slightly altered his trajectory. He continued to move upwards, and it had little to no effect.
3. At 2:34, meme-master Alpharad launched both Jtails and Dad with a single forward smash, launching them directly towards a wedge. Jtails missed it and died normally. Dad hit the top side of it, didn't tech, and died with roughly the same trajectory. If Dad had teched, he likely would have lived, surviving Ganondorf's forward smash at 150%. Could have teched to live.
4. At 3:27, Dad lands a (totally sick, but also) very significant up-air that hits Alpharad into the bottom of the immediately adjacent wedge, and launches Zero into the bumper (I recommend you watch this part in 0.25 speed). Alpharad doesn't tech the wedge and dies at the bottom of the screen. The bumper shifts ZeRo's trajectory to be much more vertical, and he dies off the top. In this case, it's difficult to call whether either character would have died if the hazards were not present. ZeRo may have died off the top regardless, but the bumper undeniably launched him more vertically. And if the up-air wouldn't have killed Alpharad outright off the top of the screen, there's a good chance he would have made it back to the stage if not for the wedge. Alternatively, he could have teched the wedge, allowing him to live regardless of whether he would have died if it were not there. In both cases, the hazards directly affected the immediate outcome, but it is more difficult to say if they affected the ultimate outcome of the up-air. Double the ambiguity
5. At 4:03, ZeRo lands an upair on a previously undamaged Alpharad, knocking him onto the upside of a wedge. He doesn't tech, but the impact cuts his trajectory short and inflicts 5% more damage (?), causing him to tumble down the side. Little effect on the game.
6. At 5:10, Jtails lands an up-air on ZeRo that launches him into the underside of a wedge. ZeRo doesn't tech (even he's not immune!), but manages to recover regardless. However, the new position puts him into an unfavorable recovery situation; had he not hit a wedge, he would have had more options to recover, being well above the stage. Situation could have been worse, had the lowest platform been retreating at the time, but the wedge could also have made the situation better, had he teched. Overall, little to no effect.
7. At 4:36, ZeRo gets revenge by up-airing Jtails into the same wedge from the same spot. Jtails doesn't tech, but only hits the wedge weakly, allowing him to act almost immediately. However, he is still at a vulnerable recovery position, and before he can recover, both he and Dad are killed by a game-stopping down-air from ZeRo. In this situation, with no lower platform to recover to, Jtails likely would have been in a similar edge guard situation regardless of the wedge being there. Likely little to no effect.
8. At 4:58, ZeRo up-B's Jtails immediately in front of a wedge. Having plenty of time to predict his trajectory, Jtails manages to make the first tech of the game off the top side, and immediately tries to counterattack Zero (and fails). In a real 1v1, that could be an important moment for the momentum to shift, but we can't know for sure. Ultimately little to no effect.
9. At 5:08, ZeRo is hit by Jtails' Wizard Kick, and collides with the bumper. While ZeRo would not have died regardless, the bumper moves ZeRo too far away for a follow up attack, and while attempting to follow up, ZeRo reverses the situation and manages to kill Jtails. Another case of the situation being affected, but only speculation about if the outcome was affected. Ambiguous
10. At 5:47, Alpharad lands a Warlock Punch on Dad, launching him onto the underside of a bumper. Dad doesn't tech, dies. May or may not have been able to recover if bumper had not been there. Could have teched to live.
11. At 5:53, Alpharad lands a forward-air on ZeRo, who techs the wedge. However, ZeRo screws up his recovery and SDs. The tech made the situation more favorable for ZeRo in the end, but he still ended up dead. Ambiguous.
12. At 6:07 Alpharad lands a sourspot Down-air on Jtails, who floats gently to a wedge, techs it, and easily recovers. Wedge had no impact.
13. At 7:03, Alpharad lands an up-air on Jtails that launches him into a wedge. Jtails techs it and easily recovers to counterattack. Wedge had little to no effect. Immediately after this, the match ends (spectacularly).

And that's every hazard interaction. All other launches missed the wedges and bumper (and there were plenty of launches). Across all 40 stocks, maybe 3 were directly affected by the presence of the hazards, four or five were ambiguously affected, and two to three deaths could have been avoided because of the wedges, had they been teched in time.

Only the softest hits into the wedges were teched, none of which had any discernible effect (though I imagine that teching consistently would be much easier to do in a 1v1 format). The 40 stock game took less than 8 minutes, though this match was very casual, and matches with Ganondorf tend to take less time regardless.

Honestly, the bumper looks like a non-issue. It would probably interfere with the game less than Melee Randall, and far less than the Halberd hazards. The moving platform is an innovative design as well, and I think affects the game positively, along with the basic stage layout.

The real issue is definitely the wedges. They'll definitely be interacted with if this stage is allowed in tournaments, and if that's a deal-breaker for some, then the stage will definitely be banned. Personally, I'm of the opinion that this stage should be legal, at least as a counterpick. The dynamics of the stage intrinsically promote aggressive play and punish campy play, and that's a design that I don't think any other stage has. It has a fresh new platform layout, and offers unique situations for edge-guarding, recovering, sharking, and applying pressure. Even the wedges reward careful movement and situational awareness, both elements of skill, rather than chance.

Granted, the way it rewards lighter characters and characters with good recovery can't be overlooked, and some characters will have to be sure to strike it, but with more counterpicks should come more strikes, especially if Skyloft, Wuhu, or KJ64 ever join the roster (Wuhu and Skyloft especially, alternate to this stage, reward heavier characters and characters with worse recoveries on most of their transformations, which alone should give extra reason to expand the counterpick stage list).

TL;DR: Wedges will be hit from time to time, but that won't be terrible. Stage is still awesome.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The best Smash 4 player in the world, along with another top player and two others of decent skill playing the most launch-happy character in the game for a total of 40 stocks on Peach's Castle. Special thanks for Zero and Jtails for bringing the skill, Alpharad for making the video, and Dad, for being the guinea pig who got launched into every hazard repeatedly! And it's 5 AM here and I have nothing better to do than analyze this video to research Peach's Castle legality, so here's the rundown:

Spoiler

1. At 1:18, Jtails backairs Dad into the bottom of a bumper, but Dad didn't tech and died. If the bumper hadn't been there, he would most likely have died anyways, due to poor recovery. If he had teched, it looks like there's a chance he could have made it back, though he would have been in an edge-guard situation. Ambiguous
2. At about 1:50, Dad was launched by Zero's warlock punch and he hit the bumper, but the hit wouldn't have killed him regardless, and it only slightly altered his trajectory. He continued to move upwards, and it had little to no effect.
3. At 2:34, meme-master Alpharad launched both Jtails and Dad with a single forward smash, launching them directly towards a wedge. Jtails missed it and died normally. Dad hit the top side of it, didn't tech, and died with roughly the same trajectory. If Dad had teched, he likely would have lived, surviving Ganondorf's forward smash at 150%. Could have teched to live.
4. At 3:27, Dad lands a (totally sick, but also) very significant up-air that hits Alpharad into the bottom of the immediately adjacent wedge, and launches Zero into the bumper (I recommend you watch this part in 0.25 speed). Alpharad doesn't tech the wedge and dies at the bottom of the screen. The bumper shifts ZeRo's trajectory to be much more vertical, and he dies off the top. In this case, it's difficult to call whether either character would have died if the hazards were not present. ZeRo may have died off the top regardless, but the bumper undeniably launched him more vertically. And if the up-air wouldn't have killed Alpharad outright off the top of the screen, there's a good chance he would have made it back to the stage if not for the wedge. Alternatively, he could have teched the wedge, allowing him to live regardless of whether he would have died if it were not there. In both cases, the hazards directly affected the immediate outcome, but it is more difficult to say if they affected the ultimate outcome of the up-air. Double the ambiguity
5. At 4:03, ZeRo lands an upair on a previously undamaged Alpharad, knocking him onto the upside of a wedge. He doesn't tech, but the impact cuts his trajectory short and inflicts 5% more damage (?), causing him to tumble down the side. Little effect on the game.
6. At 5:10, Jtails lands an up-air on ZeRo that launches him into the underside of a wedge. ZeRo doesn't tech (even he's not immune!), but manages to recover regardless. However, the new position puts him into an unfavorable recovery situation; had he not hit a wedge, he would have had more options to recover, being well above the stage. Situation could have been worse, had the lowest platform been retreating at the time, but the wedge could also have made the situation better, had he teched. Overall, little to no effect.
7. At 4:36, ZeRo gets revenge by up-airing Jtails into the same wedge from the same spot. Jtails doesn't tech, but only hits the wedge weakly, allowing him to act almost immediately. However, he is still at a vulnerable recovery position, and before he can recover, both he and Dad are killed by a game-stopping down-air from ZeRo. In this situation, with no lower platform to recover to, Jtails likely would have been in a similar edge guard situation regardless of the wedge being there. Likely little to no effect.
8. At 4:58, ZeRo up-B's Jtails immediately in front of a wedge. Having plenty of time to predict his trajectory, Jtails manages to make the first tech of the game off the top side, and immediately tries to counterattack Zero (and fails). In a real 1v1, that could be an important moment for the momentum to shift, but we can't know for sure. Ultimately little to no effect.
9. At 5:08, ZeRo is hit by Jtails' Wizard Kick, and collides with the bumper. While ZeRo would not have died regardless, the bumper moves ZeRo too far away for a follow up attack, and while attempting to follow up, ZeRo reverses the situation and manages to kill Jtails. Another case of the situation being affected, but only speculation about if the outcome was affected. Ambiguous
10. At 5:47, Alpharad lands a Warlock Punch on Dad, launching him onto the underside of a bumper. Dad doesn't tech, dies. May or may not have been able to recover if bumper had not been there. Could have teched to live.
11. At 5:53, Alpharad lands a forward-air on ZeRo, who techs the wedge. However, ZeRo screws up his recovery and SDs. The tech made the situation more favorable for ZeRo in the end, but he still ended up dead. Ambiguous.
12. At 6:07 Alpharad lands a sourspot Down-air on Jtails, who floats gently to a wedge, techs it, and easily recovers. Wedge had no impact.
13. At 7:03, Alpharad lands an up-air on Jtails that launches him into a wedge. Jtails techs it and easily recovers to counterattack. Wedge had little to no effect. Immediately after this, the match ends (spectacularly).

And that's every hazard interaction. All other launches missed the wedges and bumper (and there were plenty of launches). Across all 40 stocks, maybe 3 were directly affected by the presence of the hazards, four or five were ambiguously affected, and two to three deaths could have been avoided because of the wedges, had they been teched in time.

Only the softest hits into the wedges were teched, none of which had any discernible effect (though I imagine that teching consistently would be much easier to do in a 1v1 format). The 40 stock game took less than 8 minutes, though this match was very casual, and matches with Ganondorf tend to take less time regardless.

Honestly, the bumper looks like a non-issue. It would probably interfere with the game less than Melee Randall, and far less than the Halberd hazards. The moving platform is an innovative design as well, and I think affects the game positively, along with the basic stage layout.

The real issue is definitely the wedges. They'll definitely be interacted with if this stage is allowed in tournaments, and if that's a deal-breaker for some, then the stage will definitely be banned. Personally, I'm of the opinion that this stage should be legal, at least as a counterpick. The dynamics of the stage intrinsically promote aggressive play and punish campy play, and that's a design that I don't think any other stage has. It has a fresh new platform layout, and offers unique situations for edge-guarding, recovering, sharking, and applying pressure. Even the wedges reward careful movement and situational awareness, both elements of skill, rather than chance.

Granted, the way it rewards lighter characters and characters with good recovery can't be overlooked, and some characters will have to be sure to strike it, but with more counterpicks should come more strikes, especially if Skyloft, Wuhu, or KJ64 ever join the roster (Wuhu and Skyloft especially, alternate to this stage, reward heavier characters and characters with worse recoveries on most of their transformations, which alone should give extra reason to expand the counterpick stage list).

TL;DR: Wedges will be hit from time to time, but that won't be terrible. Stage is still awesome.

Yeah, no. This doesn't proof very much.
1. It's only 1 character. We see the same trajectories over and over again.
2. a majority of the fight was spent on the lower platform. Fighting on the upper platform makes the ramps and the bumper much more apparent (source: last tourney I TO'd, so at least not my ass)
3. over a half of all stocks fell victim to the bottom blastzone. Fighting with Ganondorf was a poor choice to test the hazards.
4. 1:18, 3:28, 4:36 and 5:49 are all instances where a tech would have most likely led to longer survival. And I just looked for missed techs on the bottom of the ramps here.

 

[A_Kae]

4 player FFAs with Ganondorf is never a good way to test a stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

4 player FFAs with Ganondorf is never a good way to test a stage.

You're not wrong, and I'm at work so I can't watch it right now, but if it's even slightly like what I think it is, then this sort of video is EXACTLY what I'd like to see more of. People playing on ambiguously legal stages and seeing what happens.

 

[YorkTC]

I know everyone seems to be discussing the new N64 DLC stages, but I would like to steer the topic to Wuhu Island. I think Wuhu Island is a great stage for competitive play, and lately I have been given a chance to include it in local events. I help TO a NorCal tournament series called Smash Bros @ Blu 42, and we have been trying Wuhu Island as a counter pick the last two weeks as part of a Ruleset test tournament series. The reception from players has been very positive, and as a result of the feedback we are adding Wuhu Island to our stage roster permanently (at least for now.) Last week another player brought a recording set up, so we were able to upload a good portion of the matches. We recorded several sets on Wuhu Island, and it was even selected during the Grand Finals match between 6WX and 1UP Nitro! If anyone is interested in seeing some tournament matches played on Wuhu Island check out the Youtube playlist!

Grand Finals: 6WX (Ryu) vs. 1UP Nitro (Luigi) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WYHrjAHeNM
Wuhu Island is selected for game 2 in the set.

 

[san.]

With all of these throw to uair combos, is Halberd deemed bannable yet?

I think Town and City is good enough for a low ceiling stage. Once you get as low as Halberd's ceiling, I believe the stage becomes too gimmicky. The low ceiling allows for a few too many shenanigans to occur.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually I think it becomes even more interesting as you can't freely CP people there anymore if they will pull out a pocket Hoo Ha character, making the game a bit more complex in a good way.

It becomes even more interesting that most of those Hooha characters aren't very mobile to just shrug off Halberd's hazards.

 

[Ghostbone]

Them pulling out a pocket hoohah character because they're the only ones viable with halberd's gimmicky ceiling is pretty telling that the stage should be banned tbh.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Them pulling out a pocket hoohah character because they're the only ones viable with halberd's gimmicky ceiling is pretty telling that the stage should be banned tbh.

Hasn't happened yet though.
Although I'm not sure either if the stage should be legal. As a ZSS main, picking this stage against me is a death wish.