Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Ulevo]

The purpose of this thread is to promote general discussion about stage legality, to bring about a community consensus about which stages should be used in (Wii U) tournaments, and provide a reference to tournament organizers that need guidance when choosing a stage list.

Below, I have listed all of the stages in to three categories; legal, suspect, banned. The stages listed under legal are the least controversial, most widely used in tournaments, and generally regarded as acceptable. The stages listed under suspect are the most controversial, highly debated, and require in-depth discussion and community voting. The stages listed under banned are usually not controversial, and are generally accepted as uncompetitive stages for tournaments.

This is by no means a defined list, and can change overtime as community consensus develops. It does not currently consider doubles format. I might change this later.

For each suspect stage, there will be a link to the individual stage discussion that will cover that stage in more detail, along with the current community poll vote, if the thread is available. Note: Threads provided without a poll with "Yes" and "No", or threads that are on an outdated patch that have had changes to them will not be added to this directory.

Disclaimer: There are links to the research threads for each stage provided in the Research column. It is advised you read these before contributing to the discussion.

Legal:

Stage | Research

| Battlefield Research

| Final Destination Research

| Smashville Research

| Town & City Research

| Dreamland 64 Research

| Duck Hunt Research

| Delfino Plaza Research

| Lylat Cruise Research

| Halberd Research

| Castle Siege Research

Suspect:

Stage | Vote | Research | Discussion

| 82% (June 16, 2015) | Kongo Jungle Research | Kongo Jungle Discussion

| 67.9% (June 16, 2015) | Mario Circuit Research | Mario Circuit Discussion

| 84.1% (June 16, 2015)| Wuhu Island Research | Wuhu Island Discussion

| 61.1% (June 16, 2015) | Pokemon Stadium 2 Research | Pokemon Stadium 2 Discussion

| 82.3% (June 16, 2015) | Skyloft Research | Skyloft Discussion

| | Windy Hill Zone Research |

| | Kalos Pokemon League Research |

Banned:

Stage | Research

| Big Battlefield Research

| Mushroomy Kingdom U Research

| Mario Galaxy Research

| Mario Circuit (Brawl) Research

| Luigi's Mansion Research

| Jungle Hijinxs Research

| Bridge of Eldin Research

| Temple Research

| Pyrosphere Research

| Norfair Research

| Port Town Aero Dive Research

| Wooly World Research

| Yoshi's Island Research

| The Greater Cave Offensive Research

| Orbital Gate Assault Research

| Onette Research

| Colisseum Research

| Flat Zone X Research

| Palutena's Temple Research

| Skyworld Research

| Gamer Research

| Garden of Hope Research

| Wii Fit Studio Research

| Boxing Ring Research

| Gaur Plain Research

| 75 M Research

| Wrecking Crew Research

| Wily Castle Research

| Pilot Wings Research | Pilot Wings Discussion

| PAC-LAND Research

| Suzaku Castle Research

Thanks to @ ParanoidDrone for providing such a comprehensive pool of research data.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I guess I'm first to comment. Wheee~

Kongo Jungle 64
Out of all the stages not obviously banned, I think the only one bigger than this is Windy Hill Zone, which is a vaguely interesting little tidbit. It's sort of the Dream Land 64 of Smash 4 in that its main selling point is the large blast lines. I can see the likes of Peach, Jigglypuff, and Rosalina preferring this stage if it's allowed. Some people have expressed concerns about the barrel allowing some manner of camping, but I have yet to see a video of it in action and thus have the stage mentally filed under "fine for now."

Mario Circuit
A few points I want to mention here. There's some manner of glitch, the details of which I'm not really clear on, that could kill players if they were thrown at the ceiling at a particular moment while the stage is in motion. Has this glitch been fixed in 1.0.6? If not, then that's a point against it but if so then I think the stage has a lot of potential. The track is damaging if you it it while the stage is moving, but unlike Skyloft the stage follows the same path every time so you can actually plan around it. Shy Guys are well out of the way more often than not and the temporary walls/ceilings, while possibly annoying, are also a unique feature that I don't think is broken since they never stick around for long.

Wuhu Island
The boat glitch has been fixed, praise be. With that no longer an issue I firmly believe that this stage is on par with Delfino Plaza. Unlike Delfino Plaza, I don't think anything funky happens to the blast lines as the stage transforms, which is nice.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Let's have some numbers. The stage spends a minute in the base form and 30 seconds in its various transformations. In a 2S6M match that means no form will appear more than once. In 3S8M matches, one form can appear twice if the match stretches past the 7M mark. This means that any given transformation will affect, at most, 1/8 of the match overall (if an 8M match goes to time and the transformation in question is the one that comes up twice). A 6M match drops the number down to 1/12 (since 6M is not long enough for any transformations to repeat). Any discussion about the merits of physics-altering transformations should keep these figures in mind.

Skyloft
At this point I think the big issue is how much of a threat Skyloft itself presents as the stage moves around. Krysko made a video that shows what I'd be willing to bet is the vast majority if not literally all possible locations where the island is a danger. Also, if you look at the layouts of each transformation, Skyloft has a comparable number of walkoffs to Delfino Plaza or Wuhu Island (5 to their 4 each), but no water at all.

Windy Hill Zone
Is it big enough to facilitate running away to time? I can't recall the last time I saw a match on this stage ever. The springs are a threat, but they also create an interesting situation where you want to try and recover high instead of going low and riding the edges of the stage, which I think is a unique dynamic and something I'd be interested in seeing in action. Also, I've seen a CPU hit a spring but immediately use their up special before they could actually go anywhere, which is something I think could be explored.

Pilotwings
I'm pretty sure this stage is already banned basically everywhere. Both planes have powerful camping positions and while the transition between the planes creates an opportunity to strike, I don't think it's often enough to be reliable. Video of ROB vs. Charizard that illustrates the issues.

Kalos Pokemon League
Not going to lie, I'm kind of surprised to see this one under "controversial." I thought most people hated it. But even though the hazards are quite numerous, none of them target one player in particular, which I guess is a point in its favor.

These are just some abridged thoughts to hopefully start some discussion.

 

[Pyr]

Just in case anyone wants to know why the banned stages are banned:

Allows Circle Camping

Some unnecessary hazards. (Most debatable of the banned, but I can see it.

Walkoff.

Walkoff

Cave of Life

Circle Camping

Walkoff

Circle Camping

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Extended Walkoffs

Cave of Life/Walkoffs

Cave of Life/Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Walkoff

Walkoff

Walkoff/Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Cave of Life

Cave of Life

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards/inconsistent, non-changing layout that can form a cave of life.

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards (by my understanding at least)

Walkoff

Walkoff/Possible Circle Camping

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Possible Circle Camping

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards

Unnecessarily impactful Stage Hazards/Walkoff

 

[Slyshock]

Mario Circuit
There's some manner of glitch, the details of which I'm not really clear on, that could kill players if they were thrown at the ceiling at a particular moment while the stage is in motion. Has this glitch been fixed in 1.0.6?

It hasn't, unfortunately. Just had it happen a few hours ago during doubles, in fact.

Skyloft
At this point I think the big issue is how much of a threat Skyloft itself presents as the stage moves around.

Another big complaint is the possibility of falling through the floor in certain transformations. It's hard to advertise the merits of a stage in a serious competitive setting when players frequently fall through it. Although it's not the only stage where this is possible, it's easily stage where it's most common.

 

[Ulevo]

I think it's worth mentioning that if anyone wants to start up a thread regarding the suspects so we can get some of them voted on or get some proper consensus going, I'm open to which one we should start with.

I guess I'm first to comment. Wheee~

Kongo Jungle 64
Out of all the stages not obviously banned, I think the only one bigger than this is Windy Hill Zone, which is a vaguely interesting little tidbit. It's sort of the Dream Land 64 of Smash 4 in that its main selling point is the large blast lines. I can see the likes of Peach, Jigglypuff, and Rosalina preferring this stage if it's allowed. Some people have expressed concerns about the barrel allowing some manner of camping, but I have yet to see a video of it in action and thus have the stage mentally filed under "fine for now."

I do not see a reason for having this stage banned, personally. I do know that some tournaments do not have it legal though. I mean, I could go in depth as to why I think it should be legal...I guess, but I think it would be sort of obvious.

IMario Circuit

A few points I want to mention here. There's some manner of glitch, the details of which I'm not really clear on, that could kill players if they were thrown at the ceiling at a particular moment while the stage is in motion. Has this glitch been fixed in 1.0.6? If not, then that's a point against it but if so then I think the stage has a lot of potential. The track is damaging if you it it while the stage is moving, but unlike Skyloft the stage follows the same path every time so you can actually plan around it. Shy Guys are well out of the way more often than not and the temporary walls/ceilings, while possibly annoying, are also a unique feature that I don't think is broken since they never stick around for long.

Someone should test this and provide video footage regarding the glitch. That said, I cannot reliably reproduce this myself, and I have actively been playing matches on this stage for quite some time now. I haven't had it occur in any of my games. You can kill yourself by basically jumping up really high in to the track before the track blocks off the ceiling blast zone, but this is a very deliberate thing and hard to replicate in a match. The action of actually hitting the track and then going inside the track, I have not seen happen.

This stage is very similar to Halberd in that the stage hazards are very non-threatening, rarely intrusive, and easy to see coming, avoid, and play around. Even if you are hit by them, they deal low % at best as far stage hazards are concerned. Less than Halberd anyhow. Most of the maps transformations are excellent, and so is the main platform. There is also only a single part of the stage that blocks off the ceiling, which is very brief.

IWuhu Island

The boat glitch has been fixed, praise be. With that no longer an issue I firmly believe that this stage is on par with Delfino Plaza. Unlike Delfino Plaza, I don't think anything funky happens to the blast lines as the stage transforms, which is nice.

I do not think this stage is legal material. That being said, my entire argument hinges on whether or not you believe a stage's legal status should or could be based on size alone. I feel this stage is too big, and I have proven how big it is with my postings in a previous thread. It's among the largest overall stages in the whole game. If you're not someone that feels being large warrants a ban however, then this stage doesn't really have much in the way of problems outside of this.

IPokemon Stadium 2

Let's have some numbers. The stage spends a minute in the base form and 30 seconds in its various transformations. In a 2S6M match that means no form will appear more than once. In 3S8M matches, one form can appear twice if the match stretches past the 7M mark. This means that any given transformation will affect, at most, 1/8 of the match overall (if an 8M match goes to time and the transformation in question is the one that comes up twice). A 6M match drops the number down to 1/12 (since 6M is not long enough for any transformations to repeat). Any discussion about the merits of physics-altering transformations should keep these figures in mind.

This stage is not legal material in my mind. I LOVE the base of the stage. It's probably my favourite overall map in Smash. That said, the transformations last for 30 seconds a piece, and I feel the Ground and Electric variants especially ruin it for the rest of the stage, while the Flying and Ice variants are novelty at best. Really unfortunate.

ISkyloft

At this point I think the big issue is how much of a threat Skyloft itself presents as the stage moves around. Krysko made a video that shows what I'd be willing to bet is the vast majority if not literally all possible locations where the island is a danger. Also, if you look at the layouts of each transformation, Skyloft has a comparable number of walkoffs to Delfino Plaza or Wuhu Island (5 to their 4 each), but no water at all.

No comment as of yet. I don't particularly like the stage and I don't see it winding up as legal but I'm not going to make an argument either way until I can justify why.

IWindy Hill Zone

Is it big enough to facilitate running away to time? I can't recall the last time I saw a match on this stage ever. The springs are a threat, but they also create an interesting situation where you want to try and recover high instead of going low and riding the edges of the stage, which I think is a unique dynamic and something I'd be interested in seeing in action. Also, I've seen a CPU hit a spring but immediately use their up special before they could actually go anywhere, which is something I think could be explored.

Springs can kill you if you touch them on the sides, which can easily occur as you are thrown in to them by your opponent or as they re-appear while recovering to the stage. That aside, the windmill I feel could probably be abused by characters with multiple jumps. That's my limited scrutiny, but I do think the springs are big deal.

IPilotwings

I'm pretty sure this stage is already banned basically everywhere. Both planes have powerful camping positions and while the transition between the planes creates an opportunity to strike, I don't think it's often enough to be reliable. Video of ROB vs. Charizard that illustrates the issues.

I think the camping positions on this stage are too strong to warrant it being legal.

IKalos Pokemon League

Not going to lie, I'm kind of surprised to see this one under "controversial." I thought most people hated it. But even though the hazards are quite numerous, none of them target one player in particular, which I guess is a point in its favor.

These are just some abridged thoughts to hopefully start some discussion.

I only included this because I've seen random suggestions here and there that it should be legalized. I am not sure why. Personally I know little about this stage other than the fact that it has hazards that I do not understand, so I'm not inclined to argue either way.

It hasn't, unfortunately. Just had it happen a few hours ago during doubles, in fact.

Just to clarify, it was the glitch where the player hits the track above them, then gets sucked in to the track, correct?

 

[Slyshock]

Just to clarify, it was the glitch where the player hits the track above them, then gets sucked in to the track, correct?

That's the one, yes. Sometimes it bounces you, sometimes it eats you. Didn't save the replay since the glitch was already proven to still be in by @ J_the_Man .

 

[Ulevo]

That's the one, yes. Sometimes it bounces you, sometimes it eats you. Didn't save the replay since the glitch was already proven to still be in by @ J_the_Man .

So I suppose the question becomes whether or not this is enough to justify the stage being banned. For me, it is the only negative aspect to the stage, and it is a rather specific part of the stage. I would imagine a player could avoid this happening, realistically. I am not surprised you're mentioning it happened in a doubles match since those are lot more chaotic and less deliberate in nature.

 

[Slyshock]

I would imagine a player could avoid this happening, realistically. I am not surprised you're mentioning it happened in a doubles match since those are lot more chaotic and less deliberate in nature.

Any attack with upwards knockback could cause issues, singles won't save you from that. That being said, it's true that it would be far more likely to happen in doubles. Should the differences between singles and doubles stage lists be discussed in this thread?

 

[Piford]

Stages like Luigi's Mansion are much better than Pilotwings. No where near as campy, albeit Luigi's is slower than usual matches due to more emphasis on stage control.

Also I have never encountered or heard of anyone falling through Skyloft. The sole exception is the residential district transformation. There, it's not that players fall through the stage, it's that they were below stage and ended up moving into the stage from the foreground, not falling from it. Luckily, the developers seemed to realize this and the floating platform stays a bit longer on the stage to allow people who ended up inside to recover. This is obviously not a reason to ban the stage, as you can predict it (you'll see when it's coming and it only effects you if you were trying to recover from pretty deep) and the stage accounts for it by making it so you can easily recover if it happens.

 

[J_the_Man]

In my opinion, we need data on Mario Circuit Wii U before declaring anything problematic. In conjunction with a ban on the glitch, I'd like to see just how frequently the glitch comes into play.

 

[Pazx]

lol why isn't pilotwings in the banned section

norfair and orbital gate assault have more support than PW

 

[Ulevo]

Any attack with upwards knockback could cause issues, singles won't save you from that. That being said, it's true that it would be far more likely to happen in doubles. Should the differences between singles and doubles stage lists be discussed in this thread?

It would be a good place for it, but I want to focus on singles first.

Stages like Luigi's Mansion are much better than Pilotwings. No where near as campy, albeit Luigi's is slower than usual matches due to more emphasis on stage control.

Also I have never encountered or heard of anyone falling through Skyloft. The sole exception is the residential district transformation. There, it's not that players fall through the stage, it's that they were below stage and ended up moving into the stage from the foreground, not falling from it. Luckily, the developers seemed to realize this and the floating platform stays a bit longer on the stage to allow people who ended up inside to recover. This is obviously not a reason to ban the stage, as you can predict it (you'll see when it's coming and it only effects you if you were trying to recover from pretty deep) and the stage accounts for it by making it so you can easily recover if it happens.

I've seen people fall through Skyloft quite frequently actually. Though I can't attest to how likely it actually is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOzl4JRg9bk

lol why isn't pilotwings in the banned section

norfair and orbital gate assault have more support than PW

I only added the stages I did in the suspect section that I knew had support, even if very little. I do not believe Pilot Wings deserves to be legal but that isn't enough of a reason to keep it from being discussed. That said, I don't believe Norfair and Orbital Gate Assault require any debate.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've seen people fall through Skyloft quite frequently actually. Though I can't attest to how likely it actually is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOzl4JRg9bk

Every time I see a video of someone falling through Skyloft, it's always that specific transformation and always when someone is low offstage as the stage lands. I'm inclined to believe @ Piford 's hypothesis that it's simply a case of the ground not being hazardous and thus allowing a player to end up inside the ground as the stage finishes moving into position. I imagine if the stage came straight down instead of at an angle, then the glitch wouldn't happen at all.

In the specific video you linked, it looks like Pikachu panicked since he didn't use the second half of Quick Attack. He was otherwise definitely in range of the platform ledge, which could have saved him.

Similar glitches from other stages (and games):
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium, Melee

 

[Ulevo]

Every time I see a video of someone falling through Skyloft, it's always that specific transformation and always when someone is low offstage as the stage lands. I'm inclined to believe @ Piford 's hypothesis that it's simply a case of the ground not being hazardous and thus allowing a player to end up inside the ground as the stage finishes moving into position. I imagine if the stage came straight down instead of at an angle, then the glitch wouldn't happen at all.

In the specific video you linked, it looks like Pikachu panicked since he didn't use the second half of Quick Attack. He was otherwise definitely in range of the platform ledge, which could have saved him.

Similar glitches from other stages (and games):
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium, Melee

He definitely used the 2nd half of Quick Attack. Watch again.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

He definitely used the 2nd half of Quick Attack. Watch again.

Hmm, you're right, but the second leap barely went anywhere. Weird.

 

[Yoyoenix91]

Every time I see a video of someone falling through Skyloft, it's always that specific transformation and always when someone is low offstage as the stage lands. I'm inclined to believe @ Piford 's hypothesis that it's simply a case of the ground not being hazardous and thus allowing a player to end up inside the ground as the stage finishes moving into position. I imagine if the stage came straight down instead of at an angle, then the glitch wouldn't happen at all.

In the specific video you linked, it looks like Pikachu panicked since he didn't use the second half of Quick Attack. He was otherwise definitely in range of the platform ledge, which could have saved him.

Similar glitches from other stages (and games):
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium, Melee

Always annoying when that happens. I've seen it happen on Skyloft too, but the player fell through the ground at the part where you're at the bridge. I've also seen it happen on Onett, with a Giant Shulk. He fell through the ground.

Always strange when it happens...

 

[cot(θ)]

I think walkoffs deserve their own separate thread. I legitimately believe they're not a problem in Smash 4, outside of exceptional cases, which I expect to get patched out (i.e. Pikachu infinite).

I think Windy Hill Zone should be banned. According to the stage research thread, they come in and spin completely at random, which is unacceptable for a lethal hazard with no warning.

I don't think you should have started by sorting things out based on what you think should be banned/isn't controversial. IMO, a good number of those "uncontroversially banned" stages are just fine for competitive play.

 

[Pazx]

I only added the stages I did in the suspect section that I knew had support, even if very little. I do not believe Pilot Wings deserves to be legal but that isn't enough of a reason to keep it from being discussed. That said, I don't believe Norfair and Orbital Gate Assault require any debate.

PW has been discussed to death. I think Norfair requires debate, especially as the change in ledge mechanics from Brawl actually turn it into a very competitive stage. If you want to avoid being obviously biased you should move Norfair, OGA and Luigi's Mansion to "suspect". While you're at it, there is support for the three main walkoff stages, PTAD, Gamer, both Yoshi stages and Mushroom Kingdom U.

Disclaimer: I don't really think any of these stages belong in a competitive environment (except possibly Norfair) however I'd say they are all better suited than PW (except... Gamer?) and to arbitrarily place certain stages in either "banned" or "suspect" is silly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Opposite end of the spectrum: Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt and Delfino (maybe) should all be added to "suspect" as well. I would also have suggested Lylat pre-patch. I like all of these stages but I've seen calls for every single one of them to be banned and I've seen and attended tournaments omitting stages from these 4.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Someone should test this and provide video footage regarding the glitch. That said, I cannot reliably reproduce this myself, and I have actively been playing matches on this stage for quite some time now. I haven't had it occur in any of my games. You can kill yourself by basically jumping up really high in to the track before the track blocks off the ceiling blast zone, but this is a very deliberate thing and hard to replicate in a match. The action of actually hitting the track and then going inside the track, I have not seen happen.

Personally, I think that this is pretty indicative of how problematic that hazard is. It's like the boat glitch on Wuhu - we know where it is, when it can happen, and how to avoid it, and the number of times it actually happens is virtually nil. Actively replicating it is difficult enough on an opponent who is trying to get killed by it; actually getting it against an opponent, particularly one who's aware of it, is damn near impossible. It belongs in the category of glitch like people falling through Pokemon Stadium in Melee - nobody's saying "ban pokemon stadium" because of that, right?

Springs can kill you if you touch them on the sides, which can easily occur as you are thrown in to them by your opponent or as they re-appear while recovering to the stage. That aside, the windmill I feel could probably be abused by characters with multiple jumps. That's my limited scrutiny, but I do think the springs are big deal.

Anyone here old enough to remember when Pictochat was legal? It was considered okay in some regions for quite a while. Then a high-profile set happened where the stage, before any sign of a hazard appearing was visible, threw out the diagonal line. The diagonal line removes the ledge on the left side of the stage. An olimar was recovering and got gimped by the hazard. Pretty much all support for the stage flew out the window at that point. Windy Hill Zone is like that, plus other problems, plus the "randomly gimping you" factor is on both sides. This is the kind of OHKO random hazard that is fundamentally not okay. It randomizes the game to a degree where the worse player may very well win off a lucky break.


So let's talk about a few others.

PS2. Great stage, absolutely no issues that sensible counterplay can't resolve, interesting mechanics, belongs in every stagelist.
Wuhu. Kind of a no-brainer. Delfino Plaza without the wonky low blastzones. People live a little longer, but runaway is not overpowered (probably want to ban this one against Sonic though) and the stage as a whole is just great. I don't know how it ended up in the "questionable" list; compare Dream Land 64.
Pilotwings. This stage is as broken as Venom was in Melee. Complete non-starter.
Kalos. I cannot get past Registeel on this one. Everything else is okay. Really, everything. But Registeel's hazard is huge, hard to avoid, and can kill. I love playing on the stage, and I'll gladly gentleman anyone there, but I think there are legitimate complaints to be had.
Skyloft. Figure out where the hitboxes are and play around them. The game's been out for half a year, how do we not know this yet?

And one or two on the other lists...

Orbital Gate Assault. It's rainbow cruise again. A legitimately interesting stage with unique player gameplay that literally nobody will give the time of day. One of the only stages in the game where airplay is favored heavily over groundplay and nobody will give it a second look. Sadface.

Halberd. Why is this stage legal? Seriously, why? Now that Diddy has been nerfed it's a little less dumb, but ZSS is still fundamentally busted as all hell on that stage, Rosalina is completely insane there, and almost any character with a decent uair can force you into a "guess right or die" situation incredibly early. Isn't that kind of why we ban walkoffs? This stage has some serious problems, and the constant low ceiling just breaks at least one top tier character. It's this game's Brinstar - an otherwise great stage brought down by the problem that some characters just happen to be phenomenally dumb there. I don't know what to say. I'm keeping it legal as long as other tournaments have it legal, because my region needs to know how to play there, but every time I counterpick there, I just feel... Dirty.

 

[Ulevo]

Let me make this perfectly clear to anyone reading.

I am not against adding any stage to the suspect group. However, if it is something that the general consensus does not support, or it is something I think is a waste of time discussing (i.e. 75M), you have to take the initiative to create a discussion thread, with a poll, and make a convincing case with analysis, tournament results, and video footage with tournament match or money matches, or relevant findings.

I am not going to add or subtract just because one or two people, who may or may not represent a minority, feel that a stage or stage element is or is not a problem. Make a thread, I will link it, we will discuss it.

I think walkoffs deserve their own separate thread. I legitimately believe they're not a problem in Smash 4, outside of exceptional cases, which I expect to get patched out (i.e. Pikachu infinite).

This is a perfect example of what I mentioned above. If you believe this, then I do not feel that even a specific thread would be required, but a thread discussing the legitimacy of walk offs in tournament play. I do not think it will bode well, but you're welcome to try.

From my personal opinion, they are a problem because they support degenerative play in the form of blastzone camping. This makes matches highly volatile, inconsistent, and subtracts from the elements that we play competitive Smash for. Again, this is an aside, if you feel the need to reply to this then just make a case for it addressing it.

I don't think you should have started by sorting things out based on what you think should be banned/isn't controversial. IMO, a good number of those "uncontroversially banned" stages are just fine for competitive play.

They needed to be sorted somehow, and like I said in the opening post, they're subject to being changed. It's not a big deal.

PW has been discussed to death. I think Norfair requires debate, especially as the change in ledge mechanics from Brawl actually turn it into a very competitive stage. If you want to avoid being obviously biased you should move Norfair, OGA and Luigi's Mansion to "suspect". While you're at it, there is support for the three main walkoff stages, PTAD, Gamer, both Yoshi stages and Mushroom Kingdom U.

Disclaimer: I don't really think any of these stages belong in a competitive environment (except possibly Norfair) however I'd say they are all better suited than PW (except... Gamer?) and to arbitrarily place certain stages in either "banned" or "suspect" is silly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Opposite end of the spectrum: Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt and Delfino (maybe) should all be added to "suspect" as well. I would also have suggested Lylat pre-patch. I like all of these stages but I've seen calls for every single one of them to be banned and I've seen and attended tournaments omitting stages from these 4.

Again, read above. This list is naturally going to garner some disagreement, and that's the point. It's purposely designed that way, relatively speaking. We need discussion, but the lines need to be drawn somewhere. You dislike something, discuss it.

As for Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt, and Delfino being suspect, I feel that's silly personally since they're allowed in most tournaments. Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege in particular have had an entire prequel of testing and consensus to draw from. Again, I'm not going to argue against discussing it. I made the pre-patch Lylat thread myself. I just think it's sort of a waste of time. Go for it though.

Personally, I think that this is pretty indicative of how problematic that hazard is. It's like the boat glitch on Wuhu - we know where it is, when it can happen, and how to avoid it, and the number of times it actually happens is virtually nil. Actively replicating it is difficult enough on an opponent who is trying to get killed by it; actually getting it against an opponent, particularly one who's aware of it, is damn near impossible. It belongs in the category of glitch like people falling through Pokemon Stadium in Melee - nobody's saying "ban pokemon stadium" because of that, right?

The problem with this point of view is the boat glitch is arguably much different. The boat glitch on Wuhu required to be grabbed and thrown down in a very deliberate spot. Arguably on Mario Circuit, it can happen anywhere along the track while it is upside down and moving as long as the character is knocked in to the track in some fashion, which can happen in many different ways. You can't just opt in to not having that happen mid game, while you could opt in to not down throwing a character in that specific spot on Wuhu.

Edit: I've also moved Pilot Wings. I recall discussion being had and if there isn't any support for it at this time I'll move it out of the way.

 

[J_the_Man]

There is only one section on Mario Circuit with a ceiling. The glitch can only occur at two very specific points. The first point is when the track goes from background to ceiling. Specifically when you pass by the first pair of ramps. That's the first point where you can phase through the ceiling. It's not guaranteed you will be killed, though. I've seen youtube videos of players being sucked in and spat out at the other glitch point. I've personally phased through the ceiling at that point without taking any damage at all.

The second point where you can glitch into isn't even guaranteed to occur during a game there. It happens when the traveling stage stops underneath the anti-gravity section of the track (There is only one point on the stage with a ceiling, so it's easy to memorize). Once the traveling stage shows up again, immediately at the apex of its rise right when it starts moving forward is when the glitch can happen. It's a split second timeframe. Only if you practice hitting it on purpose will you get some sort of timing down for it.

This is why I propose we handle this stage just like stages were handled in Melee and Brawl- we legalize it until tournament data suggests it needs to be banned. We make sure that the following clause is inserted into the rules:

Purposely or accidentally hitting your opponent into the Mario Circuit ceiling glitch and it causing a stock loss for your opponent will result in immediate forfeiture of that specific game in the set.

This should do well to eliminate people trying to take advantage of the glitch so that the data we get isn't skewed.

If this is a once in a full moon type of thing, then we have nothing to really worry about. Stage knowledge should eliminate people using moves that really shouldn't be used in the places where the glitch can happen that would result in executing the glitch. If people are constantly accidentally hitting their opponents into the glitch... Well, we smack the stage with the ban hammer.

By the way, I do have a video of the glitch occurring. I don't have recording equipment. If anyone with recording equipment wants to shoot me up a friend request, I'll send you the video.

 

[Slyshock]

Purposely or accidentally hitting your opponent into the Mario Circuit ceiling glitch and it causing a stock loss for your opponent will result in immediate forfeiture of that specific game in the set.

Stage knowledge should eliminate people using moves that really shouldn't be used in the places where the glitch can happen that would result in executing the glitch.

Unacceptable.

Last game of the last set of a tournament, A against B. Both at last stock, both at kill percent. B starts playing recklessly throwing out bairs for the kill, A punishes with an up smash. B gets stuck in the ceiling, A loses.
You're trying to force players to act a certain way so that they don't expose the ugly side of a stage, unnecessarily hurting characters who rely on moves with vertical knockback and unnecessarily favoring characters who rely on moves with horizontal knockback. Either let the ceiling glitch be a legitimate tactic or ban the stage, don't come up with arbitrary limitations on player behavior for issues that are easily avoidable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Unacceptable.

Last game of the last set of a tournament, A against B. Both at last stock, both at kill percent. B starts playing recklessly throwing out bairs for the kill, A punishes with an up smash. B gets stuck in the ceiling, A loses.
You're trying to force players to act a certain way so that they don't expose the ugly side of a stage, unnecessarily hurting characters who rely on moves with vertical knockback and unnecessarily favoring characters who rely on moves with horizontal knockback. Either let the ceiling glitch be a legitimate tactic or ban the stage, don't come up with arbitrary limitations on player behavior for issues that are easily avoidable.

Ice Climbers' freeze glitch is banned in Melee on pain of forfeiting the match. The justification given is that you are responsible for your own character, including how to (not) perform any gamebreaking and/or banned glitches. Meta Knight's infinite Dimensional Cape was banned in Brawl too. These are admittedly characters and not stages, and thus not perfect examples, but the general concept of "ban the glitch, not the character stage" is not completely alien.

 

[Ulevo]

That being said it is arguably unreasonable to ask a player to not hit a player in to the glitch spot on the track when they are playing to win. I do not think the conditions proposed by J_the_Man make sense.

Either the stage glitch proves to be rare and inconsistent enough with players who are aware of its presence for it to be a rare anomaly, or the stage fails to be legal. That's just how it is. I am arguing for it to be legal because I think it fits the former.

 

[Slyshock]

Ice Climbers' freeze glitch is banned in Melee on pain of forfeiting the match. The justification given is that you are responsible for your own character, including how to (not) perform any gamebreaking and/or banned glitches. Meta Knight's infinite Dimensional Cape was banned in Brawl too. These are admittedly characters and not stages, and thus not perfect examples, but the general concept of "ban the glitch, not the character stage" is not completely alien.

The former is a ban on a specific character using a specific series of moves with the sole purpose of performing a glitch while the latter is a ban on an unbeatable tactic. Neither ban has a severe effect on the regular game plans of the two characters effected.
The proposed Mario Circuit clause is a ban on any move with vertical knockback if it just so happens to trigger a glitch. This ban completely changes the way every character operates out of a fear of incurring the TO's wrath.

 

[J_the_Man]

Unacceptable.

Last game of the last set of a tournament, A against B. Both at last stock, both at kill percent. B starts playing recklessly throwing out bairs for the kill, A punishes with an up smash. B gets stuck in the ceiling, A loses.
You're trying to force players to act a certain way so that they don't expose the ugly side of a stage, unnecessarily hurting characters who rely on moves with vertical knockback and unnecessarily favoring characters who rely on moves with horizontal knockback. Either let the ceiling glitch be a legitimate tactic or ban the stage, don't come up with arbitrary limitations on player behavior for issues that are easily avoidable.

Why would you ever punish someone with an up smash when there's a ceiling? Why? Your opponent techs the ceiling and the match continues. This isn't forcing anyone to act a certain outside of being aware there's a gamebreaking glitch. In fact, with proper stage knowledge, one can freely act as they would whenever without significantly altering their play style. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to be aware of something for two split seconds of a stage. We have many stages legal that require much more awareness and game play altering gimmicks than Mario Circuits 5 seconds of a temporary ceiling.

 

[Ulevo]

Why would you ever punish someone with an up smash when there's a ceiling? Why? Your opponent techs the ceiling and the match continues. This isn't forcing anyone to act a certain outside of being aware there's a gamebreaking glitch. In fact, with proper stage knowledge, one can freely act as they would whenever without significantly altering their play style. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to be aware of something for two split seconds of a stage. We have many stages legal that require much more awareness and game play altering gimmicks than Mario Circuits 5 seconds of a temporary ceiling.

For one, we don't live in a game where attacks only go up or only go straight left and right. We have angled attacks, we have DI, and I imagine that many of them can replicate what we're describing here.

For two, there are plenty of instances where using an attack that sends them in to the ceiling would be ideal even if it does not result in a kill. Maybe they're susceptible to being juggled? If they tech, they're prone to being juggled, if not, they bounce and can be hit with an aerial off to the side? Sometimes attacks that are the best option to use within a given situation send the character vertically. The character might just be limited to that sort of option in that particular moment. Attacks don't need to kill to be worth using. Maybe it does damage? As a Meta Knight player, Mach Tornado does 22% and is one of his best punishment moves in many situations, but it pops them vertically when it finishes. Are you suggesting I avoid using Mach Tornado, an option that is ideal for me to use in a given scenario when the opportunity presents itself, under the pretense that I might be disqualified for enacting a glitch that I may or may not have a chance of activating?

For three, the player that acts as though they need to play around this glitch for fear of incurring the judges wrath, as aptly put, is going to be at a disadvantage against a player who holds no such restraints. This was one of the many complications that Lylat Cruise had pre-Mewtwo patch.

On another note.

@ Budget Player Cadet_

You're the one I primarily argued with regarding Wuhu. I have some decent points to make about the stage, and I'm sure you have yours. For this reason, I think that the stage should be the next one we talk about. Despite the difference in philosophy regarding the stage, there's very little to talk about that is hard to understand.

If no one has another stage they wish to talk about, I'm going to make a thread.

 

[cot(θ)]

Either ban the whole stage, or nothing at all. It's not practical to force players to play around stage glitches like that and leads to all kinds of salt.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why would you ever punish someone with an up smash when there's a ceiling? Why? Your opponent techs the ceiling and the match continues. This isn't forcing anyone to act a certain outside of being aware there's a gamebreaking glitch. In fact, with proper stage knowledge, one can freely act as they would whenever without significantly altering their play style. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to be aware of something for two split seconds of a stage. We have many stages legal that require much more awareness and game play altering gimmicks than Mario Circuits 5 seconds of a temporary ceiling.

A few problems.

Firstly, I'd punish someone with an usmash in that situation if my other kill moves weren't options or the opponent wasn't at kill %s and I needed to rack some damage, because after the usmash I can still go for followups in a lot of situations - whether they miss the tech or not, they're in a terrible position.

Secondly, you know another difference between this rule and the IDC rule? The IDC is definitively broken. It makes gameplay impossible. In this case, is this even remotely banworthy? Let's imagine someone gets really, really good at landing this glitch - so what? Is it broken? Best case scenario, they've scored one slightly-early kill because they really outplayed their opponent. That's not banworthy. That doesn't even make the stage banworthy. That's like landing a footstool into jablock on a retreating platform on Town and City - you pulled off something phenomenal and are getting rewarded for it.

Thirdly, what @ cot(θ) said. We don't need more complex and hard-to-enforce rules. If this is banworthy (which it isn't), then ban the stage.

@ Ulevo sure, I guess? My argument still basically boils down to "your theorycraft doesn't work in practice", but okay.

 

[Ulevo]

@ Budget Player Cadet_

Thread is up. Feel free to dismantle my theorycraft.

 

[Jucchan]

Let me make this perfectly clear to anyone reading.
As for Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt, and Delfino being suspect, I feel that's silly personally since they're allowed in most tournaments. Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege in particular have had an entire prequel of testing and consensus to draw from. Again, I'm not going to argue against discussing it. I made the pre-patch Lylat thread myself. I just think it's sort of a waste of time. Go for it though.

I'm assuming you're talking U.S. only, because none of those stages are legal in Japan. The Japanese equivalent of this list would go as follows:

Legal:
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Omega Stages (Counterpick)
Town and City (Split between Banned and Legal is like 30:70, Counterpick)

Suspect:
Lylat Cruise (Never seen being legal, but would not be horrible after patch.)
Delfino Plaza (No tournaments currently have it legal, but after searching I found one small local that had it legal so I guess it's suspect)
Duck Hunt (Must be unlocked, no one cares about it enough to consider it)
Wuhu Island (I have seen one local with like 15 people play it once)

Banned:
Halberd (Hazards, low ceiling, transformations. Some locals tried it after seeing Apex but then gave up on it)
Castle Siege (Not even considered due to having transformations, camping, tilting. I've seen some tournaments ban its Omega form due to camera issues)
Anything Else

With players in the U.S. like ZeRo and False recently stating that they don't think stuff like Delfino should be legal as well, I don't think some our current counter-pick stages are safe from getting banned. After all, it's the players' opinions that should go first and if it turns out that the majority of them don't like a stage, it's up for banning.

 

[Woohoo982]

I have a feeling Wii Fit Studio should be unbanned. It's just switching between Final Destination and Battlefield,how is that unfair? I mean,you have stages like Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza legal,but not a stage that's basically a mashup of Battlefield and Final Destination?
Also,why is Big Battlefield banned?
btw,I feel like these should be allowed for the 3DS version:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Gaur Plain(No Metal Face=fair)
Yoshi's Island(Final Destination with a platform)
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Tomodachi Life
Green Hill Zone
Omega Stages

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm assuming you're talking U.S. only, because none of those stages are legal in Japan.

This is because the japanese are completely crazy. Their criteria of what makes a good stage butchers the design of smash and ignores a massive amount of depth. The idea that we could go backwards, banning perfectly legitimate stages because of the statements of top players who we know have some rather ridiculous ideas about the metagame... Yeah, tell you what, how 'bout we don't do that.

 

[Firefoxx]

Just to add to discussion on Skyloft, I have gotten the "fall through the ground" glitch on the Waterfall Island transition. I forget the exact situation, but I believe I was hanging on the right ledge of the traveling platform as it descended to the waterfall island and I just phased through. I don't remember if I tried jumping as it got to the ground or if I just kept hanging on, its been a few months since this happened. Technically its possible to recover on this transition since you can jump through the waterfalls or potentially jump around to the side edges, but its difficult.

 

[gyasim]

Hey, I think there's a glitch. Sometimes when I go to pyrosphere or boxing ring omega and fight a lvl 9 cpu, they start glowing. This happened with Peach v Little Mac, Robin v Little Mac and Wario v Captain Falcon.
I legit can't tell if this is like a feature or a glitch. The glow looks like when they have a smash ball but their eyes don't glow as far as I can tell.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hey, I think there's a glitch. Sometimes when I go to pyrosphere or boxing ring omega and fight a lvl 9 cpu, they start glowing. This happened with Peach v Little Mac, Robin v Little Mac and Wario v Captain Falcon.
I legit can't tell if this is like a feature or a glitch. The glow looks like when they have a smash ball but their eyes don't glow as far as I can tell.

Are they set to random with customizations on? (Alternately, did you pick the character but pick "Random" from the list of sets?) Doing this will outfit the CPU with a random set of equipment in addition to specials, and some of the special effects make the player glow.

EDIT: On a completely different subject, I found this gfycat on Reddit of yet another weird fall-through-the-stage glitch. This one's on Delfino Plaza's Shine Gate.

 

[Piford]

Fall through glitches are going to happen on probably every stage at some point. They happened in Melee and Brawl too. You just have to roll with it, react, and hope you can recover.

 

[Jucchan]

This is because the japanese are completely crazy. Their criteria of what makes a good stage butchers the design of smash and ignores a massive amount of depth. The idea that we could go backwards, banning perfectly legitimate stages because of the statements of top players who we know have some rather ridiculous ideas about the metagame... Yeah, tell you what, how 'bout we don't do that.

First of all, denouncing an entire country as crazy isn't a good idea. Like it or not, our major events will have to have stagelists somewhat similar to theirs if we want a global community. You yourself have stated that you do not believe that Halberd should be legal due to its ridiculously low ceiling, Japan just feels the same way for Delfino. Delfino also has a very low ceiling, has some transformations that are pure camping/waiting, and overall is just a stage you pick because you know weird things can happen there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

First of all, denouncing an entire country as crazy isn't a good idea. Like it or not, our major events will have to have stagelists somewhat similar to theirs if we want a global community. You yourself have stated that you do not believe that Halberd should be legal due to its ridiculously low ceiling, Japan just feels the same way for Delfino. Delfino also has a very low ceiling, has some transformations that are pure camping/waiting, and overall is just a stage you pick because you know weird things can happen there.

Donkey Kong likes it for the water. Easy spike kills if you can pull it off. (Obviously applies to everyone else with a meteor smash too.) Although Delfino hardly has a monopoly in that regard, Wuhu Island is guaranteed to throw a water transformation at you for the second of every 4 transformations.

 

[Ulevo]

First of all, denouncing an entire country as crazy isn't a good idea. Like it or not, our major events will have to have stagelists somewhat similar to theirs if we want a global community. You yourself have stated that you do not believe that Halberd should be legal due to its ridiculously low ceiling, Japan just feels the same way for Delfino. Delfino also has a very low ceiling, has some transformations that are pure camping/waiting, and overall is just a stage you pick because you know weird things can happen there.

BPC's just an idiot. He doesn't understand that an entire competitive community can have a more conservative stage list without it being objectively wrong. It's pretty clear to most people that "they're crazy" isn't a valid argument.