Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Ghostbone]

Should probably ditch PS2 before Delfino.

But really you should be judging every stage on their own merit, rather then trying to fit them into a list of exactly 13 stages.

 

[dav3yb]

Should probably ditch PS2 before Delfino.

But really you should be judging every stage on their own merit, rather then trying to fit them into a list of exactly 13 stages.

Yeah, i can understand that, but 13 fits well into the 1-2-1 striking. And you're probably right about PS2. I know it seems to be the least played stage of the 2.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you have 14 stages, you can still strike from 13 and have 1 counter-pick only stage. It's not pretty but I don't think that's worth banning stages over.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Battlefield/Miiverse*
Final Destination / Omega Stages**
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Town and City
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland 64
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt

* these stages can be interchangeable.

i'd just be pulling delfino for peaches. I'm not crazy about how it handles its transformations, if the ceiling moved with the camera instead of what it seems to do by just jumping from one location, then back to the moving platforms, i'd be keeping it for sure. but that along with what others have said its transformations being long duration walk-off intensive, makes me feel its the next to be cut.

Remove SmashVille, cause Chaos.

 

[dav3yb]

Remove SmashVille, cause Chaos.

haha, as much as i'd love to do this, im sure riots would ensue.

 

[Tito Maas]

Can someone inform me on the argument for Pokemon Stadium 2? It just seems to me that a stage that changes how your character moves should be straight up illegal. I feel like that interferes with play much more than something like stage hazards or walk-offs. I don't even love that stage when I'm playing for fun.

Was that stage legal in Brawl? Is the argument for PS2 just extended from PS1 being legal in Melee?

Also, I would hate for Halberd and Delfino to be banned because of "jank". How ridiculous. Let's stop letting the scrubs dictate the metagame. There's not enough variance when it comes to stages in the current metagame as it is. For someone new who watches tournament play, T&C, Battlefield, and Smashville would be to their knowledge the only stages in the game.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Can someone inform me on the argument for Pokemon Stadium 2? It just seems to me that a stage that changes how your character moves should be straight up illegal. I feel like that interferes with play much more than something like stage hazards or walk-offs. I don't even love that stage when I'm playing for fun.

Was that stage legal in Brawl? Is the argument for PS2 just extended from PS1 being legal in Melee?

Also, I would hate for Halberd and Delfino to be banned because of "jank". How ridiculous. Let's stop letting the scrubs dictate the metagame. There's not enough variance when it comes to stages in the current metagame as it is. For someone new who watches tournament play, T&C, Battlefield, and Smashville would be to their knowledge the only stages in the game.

PS2 was divisive. In Brawl it was way worse, but more stage liberal areas it was allowed.

Currently a few elements of the stages were toned down, and even with Wind stage the main plat area is so good, as well as present for at least 2/3rds of the time its worth a fair shake

 

[Ghostbone]

PS2 was more tame in Brawl.

In this version you have easy death combos off the top with wind.

 

[MajorMajora]

As much as I do hate to say it should go, I'd say PS2 would be the one to go. I want to have it there, but as the one people are the most resistant to you're best off leaving it out. I'd rather have Wuhu and Skyloft become more widely liked than trying out PS2, which is less likely to be positively accepted at this point in time.

Of course, if we had a 17 stage list

 

[Kaladin]

PS2 was more tame in Brawl.

In this version you have easy death combos off the top with wind.

How is this different than Delfino while transforming or Halberd in general?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

How is this different than Delfino while transforming or Halberd in general?

Ghostbone has been arguing against using those stages (or at least Halberd) partially for that reason.

I really don't like playing on PS2 very much but it's mostly just because I find the Wind transformation way too intrusive. I don't really think that's inherently a legit reason to ban the stage though, if it's proven to still be a viable competitive stage.

 

[dav3yb]

So I figured I'd mock up a bit of what i was talking about when mentioning dividing stages into sets for striking.

-SET1
Battlefield
Duckhunt
Peaches Castle
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyloft

-SET2
Smashville
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Town & City

-SET3
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Dreamland 64
Halberd
Castle Siege

So 3 sets of 5 stages.

First match, each player strikes an entire set, and then 1-2-1 strikes from the final set for a starter.

2nd and 3rd match, winner of previous round strikes a single set, and 1 stage from each of the remaining sets.

This is how my initial thinking of it would go. The order of where the stages are could obviously change, and probably should, but i just set those up on the fly trying to just spread out the more "neutral" stages with the others more suited for a counter-pick.

I think I'll toy with this idea a bit and get some of my locals to give it shot a few matches. I also get the feeling that no matter what, any stage list that isnt 5 starters + 5-6 counterpicks just isn't going to get very far.

 

[Ghostbone]

How is this different than Delfino while transforming or Halberd in general?

It isn't
They should all be banned.

 

[b2jammer]

So I figured I'd mock up a bit of what i was talking about when mentioning dividing stages into sets for striking.

-SET1
Battlefield
Duckhunt
Peaches Castle
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyloft

-SET2
Smashville
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Town & City

-SET3
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Dreamland 64
Halberd
Castle Siege

So 3 sets of 5 stages.

First match, each player strikes an entire set, and then 1-2-1 strikes from the final set for a starter.

2nd and 3rd match, winner of previous round strikes a single set, and 1 stage from each of the remaining sets.

This is how my initial thinking of it would go. The order of where the stages are could obviously change, and probably should, but i just set those up on the fly trying to just spread out the more "neutral" stages with the others more suited for a counter-pick.

I think I'll toy with this idea a bit and get some of my locals to give it shot a few matches. I also get the feeling that no matter what, any stage list that isnt 5 starters + 5-6 counterpicks just isn't going to get very far.

Interesting system, and I like how the stages are arranged thus far. As for the statement in bold, which I sadly agree with, that's a pretty gross understatement, considering that an unhealthy amount of people just gentleman to Smashville right now. I rarely see a match on Battlefield, and forget Final Destination, let alone anything else for that matter.
On a semi-related note, since I'm anti-customs (partly for logistical reasons, yes), I feel a larger stage list (a 9-starter with about 5-7 counters feels like a good start to me) can make up that diversity without as many balance problems.

 

[dav3yb]

Interesting system, and I like how the stages are arranged thus far. As for the statement in bold, which I sadly agree with, that's a pretty gross understatement, considering that an unhealthy amount of people just gentleman to Smashville right now. I rarely see a match on Battlefield, and forget Final Destination, let alone anything else for that matter.
On a semi-related note, since I'm anti-customs (partly for logistical reasons, yes), I feel a larger stage list (a 9-starter with about 5-7 counters feels like a good start to me) can make up that diversity without as many balance problems.

Yeah, and as i said the stages in those sets could easily be shifted as needed, but i was thinking of the more balanced way to keep only a couple neutral stages on the list, along with a few counterpick stages in each. trying to avoid the obvious (these are basically all battlefield clones) in a single set.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No, stop it guys, there's nothing wrong with PS2, other than unfamiliarity/unjustified distaste for the Wind transformation.

 

[Ghostbone]

No, stop it guys, there's nothing wrong with PS2, other than unfamiliarity/unjustified distaste for the Wind transformation.

Nah I would have agreed with you in Brawl but the mechanics of this game are different and we have to judge the stage differently.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

No, stop it guys, there's nothing wrong with PS2, other than unfamiliarity/unjustified distaste for the Wind transformation.

The wind transformation is downright awful. It completely breaks any kind of flow, makes jumping a disastrous option and gives characters with physics ignoring moves a big advantage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Different and obtrusive doesn't make it inherently bad.
It slows down the battle and makes certain strategies/moves more important. So what? Exactly what mechanic makes it so terrible? Not even vertical combos are too powerful when even DI away gets enhanced.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Different and obtrusive doesn't make it inherently bad.
It slows down the battle and makes certain strategies/moves more important. So what? Exactly what mechanic makes it so terrible? Not even vertical combos are too powerful when even DI away gets enhanced.

The fact that characters like ZSS can dance around floaty characters even better than before. Way too much better.
Half of the cast just can't land anymore while I can just dAir to land or use my dSpecial to completely ignore the wind.
This transformation makes jumping one of the worst things to do.
Punishing ground moves gets much harder as well. It basically removes chunks of fundamental concepts and movement options.
I'd like you to prove me wrong and show me some video evidence where this transformation doesn't result in a standstill. I for one have yet to see that.

 

[Konneh]

The fact that characters like ZSS can dance around floaty characters even better than before. Way too much better.
Half of the cast just can't land anymore while I can just dAir to land or use my dSpecial to completely ignore the wind.
This transformation makes jumping one of the worst things to do.
Punishing ground moves gets much harder as well. It basically removes chunks of fundamental concepts and movement options.
I'd like you to prove me wrong and show me some video evidence where this transformation doesn't result in a standstill. I for one have yet to see that.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but it seems to me that you provide evidence in one sentence that Wind Transformation can be ignored by your character while simultaneously denying that entire point two sentences later.

Regardless, having frequent standstills did not stop Pokemon Stadium 1 from being a CP in Melee (even though it is a stage that favors spacies, who already are dominant enough).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The fact that characters like ZSS can dance around floaty characters even better than before. Way too much better.

Wait hang on are you saying the part of the stage that completely invalidates ZSS's neutral game is "way too much better" for her?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but it seems to me that you provide evidence in one sentence that Wind Transformation can be ignored by your character while simultaneously denying that entire point two sentences later.

Regardless, having frequent standstills did not stop Pokemon Stadium 1 from being a CP in Melee (even though it is a stage that favors spacies, who already are dominant enough).

Wait hang on are you saying the part of the stage that completely invalidates ZSS's neutral game is "way too much better" for her?

My point was that most characters suffer heavily under the transformation, while a small selected few have options that provide them big advantages. ZSS, Sheik and Pikachu come to mind.

Melee has a much smaller stagelist though while we have the luxury to choose right now.

 

[Ghostbone]

Different and obtrusive doesn't make it inherently bad.
It slows down the battle and makes certain strategies/moves more important. So what? Exactly what mechanic makes it so terrible? Not even vertical combos are too powerful when even DI away gets enhanced.

Sheik kills you at 10 from a grab during the wind transformation.

If that isn't terrible I don't know what is.

And that's not even an exaggeration, d-throw > uair > uair true combos and kills you off the top blastzone that early.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sheik kills you at 10 from a grab during the wind transformation.

If that isn't terrible I don't know what is.

And that's not even an exaggeration, d-throw > uair > uair true combos and kills you off the top blastzone that early.

Yeah, @Yikarur didn't you test that pretty extensively? That's why the stage is banned in Germany right now. Not even I am trying to bring that back. That's just not really acceptable, as unfortunate as it is.

 

[Pazx]

Let's talk about smallish stagelists. Why? Because I don't agree with smallish (7-9 stage) stage lists including Delfino and Halberd over stages like Skyloft.

Let's say the following seven stages are guaranteed. If you could add one stage, which would it be and why? If you could add two, which would they be and why? If you could add 3, which would they be, why, etc. I'm looking to create the most optimal stage list for every possible number of stages (within reason, I don't reaaaaally care even at the 13 stage mark). Things to keep in mind include not only the stage's competitive viability in a vacuum but how it interacts with the rest of the stagelist and whether it makes for a more balanced stagelist than putting another stage in its place.

Also, if anybody would be interested in removing stages from the 7 I've listed and replacing them with stages in the "suggestions" pile I'd be very interested in hearing it.

"Guaranteed" stages (aka [most of] the static stages, "D1's stagelist"):

• Battlefield
• Smashville
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City
• Dream Land 64
• Duck Hunt
• Final Destination

Suggestions for addition:

• Kongo Jungle 64
• Skyloft
• Wuhu Island
• Castle Siege
• Halberd
• Delfino Plaza
• Mario Circuit
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Whatever else I've forgotten

 

[Ghostbone]

Castle Siege > Wuhu > Skyloft > maaaaybe Delfino
I consider the rest of them banworthy.

Castle siege + wuhu makes 9 stages which is nice for (full list) stage striking at least.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm super biased towards Halberd/Delfino so those would probably be the stages I'd personally add back in, but thinking a little more objectively...

Skyloft, and then either Wuhu or Castle Siege (I'm not really that fond of either of those stages though). Although, I would also like to see more extensive testing of Peach's Castle, only a small number of tourneys have even bothered to run it so far.

Too bad Prism Tower is 3DS-only, that stage is actually amazing.

 

[Tito Maas]

Jumping and short hopping is such a huge part of the game. The wind transformation disrupts that entirely. Talk about breaking the flow; if the stage takes away one of the biggest elements of the game then yeah, that's a huge issue. I don't see how it isn't obvious how that isn't worse than stage hazards and walkoffs.

To me it's insane how we're trying to ban Halberd and Delfino for completely trivial reasons while propping up PS2 at the same time.

 

[Illuminose]

Oh by the way, trying to create a stage list that works for FLSS is hurting your case. There is no way a 13 stage list will happen. We do not have 6 stages that are acceptable to make this possible.

 

[Mitt Fuzzy]

Oh by the way, trying to create a stage list that works for FLSS is hurting your case. There is no way a 13 stage list will happen. We do not have 6 stages that are acceptable to make this possible.

Am I missing something? Does FLSS require 13 stages (or anything other than an odd number of stages)?

 

[b2jammer]

Am I missing something? Does FLSS require 13 stages (or anything other than an odd number of stages)?

FLSS requires 4n+1 stages to work properly with stage striking (5 stages strike 1-2-1, 9 stages strike 1-2-2-2-1, 13 stages strike 1-2-2-2-2-2-1, etc).

 

[Notries]

Sorry if I sound ignorant, but why couldn't we have, say, an 11 stage list with 1-2-2-2-2-1 striking? Both players would still get the same amount of strikes, wouldn't they?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sorry if I sound ignorant, but why couldn't we have, say, an 11 stage list with 1-2-2-2-2-1 striking? Both players would still get the same amount of strikes, wouldn't they?

It's an advantage to strike last and a disadvantage to strike first. 11 therefore favors player 2. 13 is more balanced because it lets the same player strike first and last.

 

[Pazx]

I'm beginning to think that's a bit of a cop out, there are ways to get around that. With 7 stages we could strike 2-3-1 or 1-3-2, I'm pretty sure the former doesn't provide an advantage to either player despite not fitting into the 4n+1 equation. Similar things could be done for 11 or 15 stages (but not 3 obviously).

@ Ghostbone I've always found people show the most resistance to CS, what makes it the best option? Why is Wuhu better than Skyloft? I agree with these two transformers being better options than Delfino, but what makes them all better than Kongo?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm beginning to think that's a bit of a cop out, there are ways to get around that. With 7 stages we could strike 2-3-1 or 1-3-2, I'm pretty sure the former doesn't provide an advantage to either player despite not fitting into the 4n+1 equation. Similar things could be done for 11 or 15 stages (but not 3 obviously).

@ Ghostbone I've always found people show the most resistance to CS, what makes it the best option? Why is Wuhu better than Skyloft? I agree with these two transformers being better options than Delfino, but what makes them all better than Kongo?

I'm not an expert in game theory, unfortunately.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh forget it, you're right and I'm wrong, PS2 is broken and stupid and so I am.
I'm sick of defending stages anyway.

 

[Cylent]

Honestly, I'm fine with the stage list we have now with Kongo and without Skyloft.

I think skyloft cant be too big of a map for 1v1 and can also have a bit of jank on some transitions.
Also, a personal hate for me.

 

[Ghostbone]

@ Ghostbone I've always found people show the most resistance to CS, what makes it the best option? Why is Wuhu better than Skyloft? I agree with these two transformers being better options than Delfino, but what makes them all better than Kongo?

Australia has some weird Castle Siege hate. Segments 1 and 3 are competitive, it's just the middle segment that's the issue (this game doesn't have walk-off chaingrabs or random extreme loading times so it's far more competitive than brawl). It's also the only transforming stage (well also town and city i guess) that's 100% consistent, whereas wuhu/skyloft/delfino randomly go to different segments (there's some pattern but it's still random).

Skyloft has hazards (you can get hit into buildings or something while flying around on the main platform? can't remember specifically but there's a vid on it), and since the stage moves between segments randomly, I don't really find that acceptable even though the background would probably tell you when it's coming up. The waterfalls also gimp recoveries way too drastically, but that's not as much of an issue.

Wuhu just has transformations that get camped out, plus it's big. Not really bannable things, just disliked aspects. Deserves to be legal.

Delfino obviously has ceiling stuff. High variance in results and an extremely polar stage because of it.

Kongo has the barrel and heavily encourages time outs with its size and layout. It's mainly the barrel though, it moves about randomly and randomly spins around, so you're trying to input something, get hit into a barrel that was off screen (and thus impossible to predict) and immediately get fired into the blastzone. Or you spike someone and they get saved by the barrel, neither are uncommon scenarios.

 

[wizrad]

I can't believe Kalos Pokémon League was ever considered "Suspect" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". The hazards there are ridiculous…