Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Krysco]

Kinda funny how back in Brawl PS2 was quickly banned and yet Halberd lasted most, if not, the entire lifespan of the game yet here in Sm4sh PS2 is contending for legal status again while Halberd and even Delfino are becoming questionable. I know, I know, different games, different circumstances like...Brawl Sheik didn't have that crazy combo mentioned earlier on the wind form of PS2.

And I'm still somewhat surprised Wuhu gets more attention for legal status than Skyloft. I feel Skyloft has the better transformations, though I'm just thinking off the top of my head at the moment rather than looking at them individually. Could be wrong on that or they could have an equal amount of poor transformations. The platform on Wuhu doesn't wait for you at all unlike the likes of Delfino and Skyloft and Port Town Aero Dive. And the hazards of Skyloft are a 'problem' overcome through experience. Play on the stage enough and all of them become just as obvious as the ones on Halberd and Wuhu even if they don't telegraph themselves as well.

Now to look at the transformations individually so I can eat my own words!

 

[Ghostbone]

PS2 isn't really contending for legal status anywhere outside of this thread.

 

[Krysco]

Well the fact that people are considering it at all. Pretty sure Norfair and Luigi's Mansion were legal for a bit in the early days of Brawl and they're back but there's nowhere near as much of a voice for them to be legal. Guess PS2 is just the least problematic of the Brawl banned stages though it's still problematic

 

[ぱみゅ]

Everything on Kalos is very avoidable, the worst phase is Steel but it's not game-breaking at all.
Not making a case for it, just stating that argument back there was just not right.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Everything on Kalos is very avoidable, the worst phase is Steel but it's not game-breaking at all.
Not making a case for it, just stating that argument back there was just not right.

Unless legendaries show up.

 

[MajorMajora]

I can't believe Kalos Pokémon League was ever considered "Suspect" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". The hazards there are ridiculous…

"I can't believe Skyloft was ever considered "Suspect" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". The transformations there are ridiculous…"

"I can't believe Smashville was ever considered "Legal" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". The platform there is ridiculous…"

"I can't believe Shiek was ever considered "Suspect" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". Her frame data is ridiculous…"

"I can't believe stock with time was ever considered "Standard" instead of "So Banned We Don't Even Remember It's In The Game". The timeouts there are ridiculous…"

You just... you just can't make arguments like that. They state your opinion, but this isn't a poll. You gotta put evidence into this if you want to add to discussion. And don't say "The hazards are ridiculous" is evidence. It involves no data and discusses no significant, qualitative, definable aspect of the stage or smash as a whole.

On kalos, the legendaries are, to my knowledge, quite predictable. This means that the only reason you'd get hit is if the opponent outplays you or if you're ignorant. Not to mention that, in the case of legendaries, the most effective option is generally to play passively till the threat is gone (either that or it's manaphy and not that big of a deal). In the case of Registeel, If you play aggressively against a defensive playstyle momentum will naturally place much closer to the middle of the stage where it's most dangerous, and getting hit will send you even closer, while the defensive player will be knocked away if they get hit. Overall I say it very well could be worked around.

 

[NerdThomas3]

I could see Kongo Jungle (64) and Pokemon Stadium 2 as a counter pick. Pokemon Stadium is legal in Melee even though it has some of the things Pokemon Stadium 2 has. Mario Circuit (Wii U) is a stage I haven't played on enough to give my thoughts on it. Big Battlefield is kind of surprising to see banned. I figured it would be legal for doubles, actually. Also, Castle Siege is legal..? Since when..?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Since Brawl.

And IDK about Kalos Pokemon League. The hazards on Halberd are workable because they (usually) don't kill at low-ish percents and don't block a large portion of the stage. Kalos' hazards either cover large chunks of the stage or, in the case of Registeel's swords, do that and kill rather early from my experiences. The steel transformation is super lame in general, if I'm gonna be honest.

Besides that, PS2 has the same general layout in the base state (not sure on blastzone sizes though) and it's transformations are waaay less intrusive, and that's a stage that's usually banned anyways. Let's sort out Stadium before we push for Kalos, lol.

 

[Illuminose]

The electric and wind transformations on PS2 are both really unplayable. You have stuff like Sheik's dthrow -> uair -> uair kill combo from 10% on the wind transformation...and the conveyor belts just interfere too much on the electric transformation. The ice transformation is basically just a silly slip n slide... Wonky physics (only way to describe them) that make those transformations awkward or unplayable to fight on really are just plain unacceptable.

Kongo has camping issues with the barrel and top platforms and it's too big (as in the blastzones are).

Big Battlefield is way too large for singles play and has circle camping issues. It's fine for quads but way too big for doubles still.

The big Mario Circuit issue is the track creating walls on the ceiling or side of the stage. 'Tech' but it's not always easy to differentiate between when the track is there to hurt you or if it's just the background. There are also legitimate issues with the karts, getting hit into them or what have you. Some transformations especially present this issue, like the one where the karts are right above the characters and you can't even jump while they're out. There's also still that ceiling glitch.

 

[Xeze]

Like @ Illuminose said, those two PS2 transformations make it bad for competitive play.
Kongo Jungle 64 might work as a counterpick, although the barrel is kinda weird. If you shoot yourself from it, you gain this high priority hitbox making it hard to punish. Characters with multiple jumps might wanna try to abuse it, specially against characters with poor offstage presence.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The electric and wind transformations on PS2 are both really unplayable. You have stuff like Sheik's dthrow -> uair -> uair kill combo from 10% on the wind transformation...and the conveyor belts just interfere too much on the electric transformation. The ice transformation is basically just a silly slip n slide... Wonky physics (only way to describe them) that make those transformations awkward or unplayable to fight on really are just plain unacceptable.

I actually tend to agree that most of PS2's transformations aren't suitable for competitive play. I'm okay with the Ice transformation, and I don't mind if ground tends to stall matches a bit (that's a player decision if they want to take the risk), but electric and wind really kill the stage for me, even ignoring Sheik's death combo off the top.

Regardless I would still argue it's more competitive than Kalos. If I had to pick between the two I would go with PS2 every time.

 

[Xeze]

Kalos is horrible. I dunno why people would even consider making it a competitive stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Unless legendaries show up.

Rayquaza leaves a trail that makes it easy to know where will it strike.
Ho-Oh at best forces players to camp. Being offstage when the plume rises is a horrible position, but there was already a limited space to play so it is likely to be the player's fault to be there.
Registeel is not as bad if people pay attention to it. It's easy to know when it Stomps and Swords, while really big, are not too difficult to dodge.
and lol Manaphy.

Again, I'm not trying to make a case because it's pointless, but everyone is so full of wrong info that's painful even.


btw, Electric transformation in PS2 in this game is REALLY tame, conveyor belts aren't as fast as they were in BRawl, virtually every character beats it WALKING. Annoying at best but not competition crippling.

 

[Geno9999]

A part of me feels that Kalos is tamer than PS2, but that doesn't mean that it isn't suspect.
All steel transformations not only create walls, but walls that actually damage the players. Standard has a free metal box for everyone in the center. Combined with the swords, this means that players rack up a lot of damage, but aren't getting ko'd until either the transformation ends, or if they get out of the center and wait for the metal to wear off.
Both Water transformations create walkoffs, with standard water probably being more liable to knock someone out than Manaphy's whirlpool.
Both Fire transformations promote camping with its fire pillars.
The dragon transformation is the only one that I have no problems with, with standard's dragon breath thing being somewhat comparable to Halberd's claw hazard, but has a slightly easier tell with the purple flash on the floor. As mentioned before, Rayquaza makes a lightning trail that makes it easy for players to avoid getting ko'd by him.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Rayquaza leaves a trail that makes it easy to know where will it strike.
Ho-Oh at best forces players to camp. Being offstage when the plume rises is a horrible position, but there was already a limited space to play so it is likely to be the player's fault to be there.
Registeel is not as bad if people pay attention to it. It's easy to know when it Stomps and Swords, while really big, are not too difficult to dodge.
and lol Manaphy.

Again, I'm not trying to make a case because it's pointless, but everyone is so full of wrong info that's painful even.

btw, Electric transformation in PS2 in this game is REALLY tame, conveyor belts aren't as fast as they were in BRawl, virtually every character beats it WALKING. Annoying at best but not competition crippling.

Imo the only awful part of PS2 is the wind transformation, everything else is fine. I agree on the Electric transformation.
I actually like this one since gaining stage control becomes much more important.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding Kalos:

I agree the Steel transformation is probably the worst of the lot. The swords are annoying no matter how you slice them at least partially because they're solid. The flame jets at least let you have a projectile war. The pool's barely an issue to me since it offers a strong incentive to venture towards the middle (otherwise a dicey prospect because you have damaging walls to either side) and it rewards stage control in a way that would probably be more meaningful if the swords weren't there. So I like the idea of it in an abstract sense at least. Registeel can go die in a fire if I'm being honest with myself.

I'd like to pose the open question "does the threat of being washed away by the water do anything to mitigate the potential for camping the temporary walkoff?"

Fire's mostly fine except for Ho-Oh since then there's really no viable option other than to camp on opposite sides of the flame jets. The offstage ones are dangerous, admittedly, but normally they last for all of a second and can be avoided by recovering high. (On a different note, does any legal stage offer an incentive to recover high? That seems like a valid twist that I think we're lacking. Maybe a job for custom stages if they ever take off.)

Dragon's energy burst thing is surprisingly short ranged. The graphic is massively oversized for the hitbox, I'm pretty sure SH height is sufficient to dodge. I actually have a separate theory about it entirely but I want to test it first instead of speculating here. If it pans out I'll mention it later.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dragon is fine for the same reason Halberd's hazards are fine. It's been a bit since I've tried the stage so I don't remember how powerful Rayquaza actually is, but my fears is that it tends to cover a significant portion of the stage with a meaty hitbox (even if it is telegraphed). Fire is troubling for certain characters, and Water is okay if only prone to camping.

Steel is by far the worst aspect of the stage and even without Registeel's interference has elements I feel are somewhat degenerate to competitive play.

 

[dav3yb]

so is it odd to have a stage list of, say, 5 starters and 6 counter picks? it seems like counter picks are mostly a shorter list than the starters most of the time, but im wanting to include peaches castle in a list which is current 5s/5cp

 

[Ansou]

so is it odd to have a stage list of, say, 5 starters and 6 counter picks? it seems like counter picks are mostly a shorter list than the starters most of the time, but im wanting to include peaches castle in a list which is current 5s/5

There is no rule saying that you need to have more starter stages than counterpick stages.

 

[GrayGray4468]

I think Halberd needs to be banned because of the stage hazards, the laser and bomb. if you look at all the other legal stages, they don't have any sort of stage hazard (maybe duck hunt but I don't know enough about the stage). That clearly separates it from the rest and deserves to be banned.

 

[Ansou]

I think Halberd needs to be banned because of the stage hazards, the laser and bomb. if you look at all the other legal stages, they don't have any sort of stage hazard (maybe duck hunt but I don't know enough about the stage). That clearly separates it from the rest and deserves to be banned.

Just because a stage has something that separates it from the rest it doesn't mean that it should be banned.

 

[GrayGray4468]

Just because a stage has something that separates it from the rest it doesn't mean that it should be banned.

It isn't that per se, but rather the hazards. It's like Hyrule Castle in 64, it has hazards that can potentially KO, and it's legality is disputed here in the states. But it might become a "first one to utilize the laser wins" kind of match and no real fighting. So it really needs to be at lest banned, if not disputed.

 

[Ansou]

It isn't that per se, but rather the hazards. It's like Hyrule Castle in 64, it has hazards that can potentially KO, and it's legality is disputed here in the states. But it might become a "first one to utilize the laser wins" kind of match and no real fighting. So it really needs to be at lest banned, if not disputed.

The laser and the bomb are really easy to avoid due to heavy telegraphing and the laser can be SDId out of.

 

[GrayGray4468]

The laser and the bomb are really easy to avoid due to heavy telegraphing and the laser can be SDId out of.

What if your opponent hits you into either while you are in hitstun? and say you do fall out of the laser by SDI'ing, what can your opponent do? hit you back in!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

For the record, the reason Hyrule Castle ended up being banned in 64 wasn't necessarily because of the tornado. Matches on that stage were prone to camping because of its large size, and characters like Fox could wall others out with projectiles. The tornado was also a factor, but that's mainly because it appeared at random and could speed up or slow down at random. Halberd's hazards are far more tame than Hyrule Castle's.

In general getting hit by the laser is your fault, either through poor positioning or simply making a mistake and getting punished by your opponent. If anything the stage's low ceiling is a more significant and relevant problem than the laser, as it makes some top/high tier characters like Rosalina obscenely powerful on the stage.

 

[Illuminose]

The bomb isn't a problem, the ability of the laser to edgeguard players is an issue (the specific targeting is also an issue), and the claw is absolutely ridiculous. The low ceiling is enough to ban the stage on its own though.

As for people talking about Kalos...I can't really get past Registeel. His attack kills and is huge/difficult to avoid. The steel and fire transformations are iffy in general (steel one is basically a campfest if you play to win, so is the fire one to a certain extent and the swords/flame pillars are so in the way). Ability to turn into metal is sketchy as well. Rayquaza is telegraphed but huge to the point where it's a major presence even if you know where it is. The water transformation is also kinda just a campfest, especially when Manaphy comes into play...and the water sweeping through disrupts everything. Ho-Oh makes the flame pillars so much more ridiculous. Too many disruptive hazards in one place.

 

[Ghostbone]

There's a point where a stage just continuously interferes with fighting to an extreme point that even if it were 100% predictable we'd still have to ban it.
I'm just imagining some sort of pictochat-esque stage except every transformation is the whale and fighting basically stops every time it comes up. Maybe nothing is "broken" about that stage but we'd still ban it for continuously interrupting the flow of the match.

Kalos feels like that, fire and steel are garbage for fighting (water too if someone's sitting near the walk-off) so optimally everyone would just wait for them to end. Then you add onto that the issue of the legendaries ****ing up the match (sure you can avoid them without an opponent to deal with but your opponent exists) and the stage has no place in our rulesets.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There's a point where a stage just continuously interferes with fighting to an extreme point that even if it were 100% predictable we'd still have to ban it.
I'm just imagining some sort of pictochat-esque stage except every transformation is the whale and fighting basically stops every time it comes up. Maybe nothing is "broken" about that stage but we'd still ban it for continuously interrupting the flow of the match.

Kalos feels like that, fire and steel are garbage for fighting (water too if someone's sitting near the walk-off) so optimally everyone would just wait for them to end. Then you add onto that the issue of the legendaries ****ing up the match (sure you can avoid them without an opponent to deal with but your opponent exists) and the stage has no place in our rulesets.

I asked this elsewhere but I don't think anyone answered. Would the threat of water pushing you away from the walkoff (or into it if you're camping the downhill side) be a mitigating factor at all? The stage has enough problems that I'm comfortable writing it off for tournament purposes, but consider it in a vacuum for this.

 

[Illuminose]

I asked this elsewhere but I don't think anyone answered. Would the threat of water pushing you away from the walkoff (or into it if you're camping the downhill side) be a mitigating factor at all? The stage has enough problems that I'm comfortable writing it off for tournament purposes, but consider it in a vacuum for this.

Not really, at least on the high ground. The water is disruptive but my opponent has to deal with it too and I can deal with it to keep positional advantage, or even ride the water to the other side then jump off of it.

 

[MajorMajora]

There's a point where a stage just continuously interferes with fighting to an extreme point that even if it were 100% predictable we'd still have to ban it.
I'm just imagining some sort of pictochat-esque stage except every transformation is the whale and fighting basically stops every time it comes up. Maybe nothing is "broken" about that stage but we'd still ban it for continuously interrupting the flow of the match.

Kalos feels like that, fire and steel are garbage for fighting (water too if someone's sitting near the walk-off) so optimally everyone would just wait for them to end. Then you add onto that the issue of the legendaries ****ing up the match (sure you can avoid them without an opponent to deal with but your opponent exists) and the stage has no place in our rulesets.

By "interrupting the flow of the match" I assume you mean forcing stalemates. I'm curious how much of kalos, in that case, really forces that. Separated by time, I mean. @ ParanoidDrone can you give us numbers on this?

Even so, steel and fire are certainly different, but I imagine in many matchups those will be more than workable, assuming people know what they're doing. Of course that's just guessing on my part since I've only played the stage (and smash for that matter) casually.

Overall I say something being annoying and people not wanting to fight on it is a silly reason to ban something, because if no one wants to fight on it they won't. But I'm sure someone will, and to them I'd say they deserve an advantage for stretching their boundaries.

(Sorry if this wasn't exactly articulate. I'm tired.)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

By "interrupting the flow of the match" I assume you mean forcing stalemates. I'm curious how much of kalos, in that case, really forces that. Separated by time, I mean. @ ParanoidDrone can you give us numbers on this?

Even so, steel and fire are certainly different, but I imagine in many matchups those will be more than workable, assuming people know what they're doing. Of course that's just guessing on my part since I've only played the stage (and smash for that matter) casually.

Overall I say something being annoying and people not wanting to fight on it is a silly reason to ban something, because if no one wants to fight on it they won't. But I'm sure someone will, and to them I'd say they deserve an advantage for stretching their boundaries.

(Sorry if this wasn't exactly articulate. I'm tired.)

Unfortunately Kalos spends very little time in its base form: 10 seconds, then 30 in whatever form it transforms to, lather rinse repeat. The sheer frequency makes stalling implausible, but the stage definitely spends more time transformed (and hazardous) than not.

 

[MajorMajora]

So 4 transformations would take 2:40. If we consider 1 minute of that problematic (Fire+Steel), then 37.5% is problematic. If it's 30 sec (just steel or fire) then we have 18.75% being problematic.

So these are pretty damning, though they are assuming that these transformations completely invalidate fighting as opposed to making it more awkward. It assumes 100% of matches will go to a stand still in these transformations, which is something I have a hard time grasping.

Overall, the idea of us banning this because the fight stops is ridiculous until we see the fight consistently stopping, and with a variety of matchups.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So 4 transformations would take 2:40. If we consider 1 minute of that problematic (Fire+Steel), then 37.5% is problematic. If it's 30 sec (just steel or fire) then we have 18.75% being problematic.

So these are pretty damning, though they are assuming that these transformations completely invalidate fighting as opposed to making it more awkward. It assumes 100% of matches will go to a stand still in these transformations, which is something I have a hard time grasping.

Overall, the idea of us banning this because the fight stops is ridiculous until we see the fight consistently stopping, and with a variety of matchups.

Don't forget the legendaries though.
I've had people dying to steel legendary multiple times.
The Metal effect on standard verison is also completely game breaking. Someone behind has absolutely no issues to quickly nullify any disadvantage because both will end up at 150% as soon as the stage is over.

 

[MajorMajora]

Don't forget the legendaries though.
I've had people dying to steel legendary multiple times.
The Metal effect on standard verison is also completely game breaking. Someone behind has absolutely no issues to quickly nullify any disadvantage because both will end up at 150% as soon as the stage is over.

I guess the question would be whether or not there's a way around this happening to you? Or, better, if there's some way to bait the person in disadvantage towards the pool, causing them to slip up, giving you a kill or have you be the only who's metal.

We should ban things because they're broken, not because they might be broken.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking from experience, Steel is always annoying because the swords are solid. They also have hurtboxes on the top which does weird things to hitboxes that normal stage geometry doesn't. (Thunder Jolt can't crawl over the hilts, for instance.) I actually don't think the metal pool is that big a problem in comparison to the swords. The way the stage is set up, it sort of turns the entire middle into a weird death cage thing but if it were just the pool on a flat surface I think it would be rather interesting to work with/around. I haven't done a whole lot of research into the effects of being metal, but it's not without its drawbacks, minor as they may be. (I'm sure rapid jabs on a mid to high % metal target will rack up ludicrous amounts of damage, for starters.) Registeel is probably the single most dangerous feature of the stage, which is saying something.

Fire is less of a problem but if Ho-oh appears then it's suddenly a pain again because then the flames under the platforms get WTF high and you're basically stuck or need to try and space a roll to get through. Or if you have a teleport move you can use that, I guess. (Finally a use for Shadow Sneak in neutral?) The fact that the flames aren't solid also means you can still have a projectile war if that's your thing.

Water's basically fine IMO, walkoffs have cooties as usual but the flood means you can't actually camp them for more than like 15 seconds or so and they go away anyway. (And the way they go away will kill you if you don't pay attention and leave early, extra incentive to not bother.) Manaphy transforms center stage but it's not a death pit -- the sides have ledges you can grab. The only characters it'll kill outright are Ness and Lucas for the usual "lol PK Thunder" reasons.

Dragon's also basically fine. Rayquaza is dangerous but in the matches I've had on the stage it literally never hit anyone. You get a good amount of warning.

So yeah. Kalos is a stage that I, personally, wouldn't mind playing on, but then again I wouldn't mind playing on the vast majority of stages in the game. I recognize I'm in the minority on this so I don't generally bother trying to push for it. (That and Skyloft/Wuhu are more pressing and viable.) If you have a high tolerance for stage shenanigans then it's workable.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I guess the question would be whether or not there's a way around this happening to you? Or, better, if there's some way to bait the person in disadvantage towards the pool, causing them to slip up, giving you a kill or have you be the only who's metal.

We should ban things because they're broken, not because they might be broken.

It's not hard at all to reach the metal pool.
I fully agree with you on the last part, that's my philosophy. I employ you to try the stage over a longer period, it's problems are pretty obvious. I've tested the stage multiple times and it doesn't seem suited for competitive play. All legendary versions are incredibly obnoxious, Steel outright kills people, and steel base is awful as well thanks to the metal pool.

 

[MajorMajora]

It's not hard at all to reach the metal pool.
I fully agree with you on the last part, that's my philosophy. I employ you to try the stage over a longer period, it's problems are pretty obvious. I've tested the stage multiple times and it doesn't seem suited for competitive play. All legendary versions are incredibly obnoxious, Steel outright kills people, and steel base is awful as well thanks to the metal pool.

I would if I could, but I don't exactly have anyone to test with. Oh well.

I do think obnoxiousness should have nothing to do with it. I could find Rosalina obnoxious. And in pretty much any situation this is picked, one player finds it obnoxious and the other does not. Pretty much the same situation: one person is not enjoying the match because they don't know how to deal with something.

I'm pretty sure registeel can be avoided by both players, and if one tries to avoid and the other one chases then the one avoiding is in advantage (just theorycrafting here). And steel actually has some interesting nuances. I recall that if you get the first pool you can't get the second pool, since you're still steel when the second pool shows up and it doesn't reset the timer, so if you have someone camping inside the steel area and the other waiting outside, the steel one is forced to approach lest they be put in a bad position in the standard state of the stage where it's far easier to KO, being the only one without steel. And with steel limiting potential approach options, this could lead to interesting decision making, which is essential for an evolving meta. This is in addition to baiting people with pool, etc.

 

[Zorcey]

We would have so many legal stages if there was a way to turn off hazards beyond 5+ player battles. It's a real shame. I would play on Kalos a lot more if it weren't for the Steel transformations.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We would have so many legal stages if there was a way to turn off hazards beyond 5+ player battles. It's a real shame. I would play on Kalos a lot more if it weren't for the Steel transformations.

Or a PM-esque redesign. Like, Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio could be solved by slapping their platform stuff on top of the Omega form. Bam, two excellent stages.

 

[Geno9999]

Or a PM-esque redesign. Like, Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio could be solved by slapping their platform stuff on top of the Omega form. Bam, two excellent stages.

Agreed, there's a lot of stages that, while fun, just simply aren't fair. Mushroom Kingdom U for example would be a good counterpick if it weren't for that stupid Nabbit. Orbital Gate Assault would be good if it wasn't Orbital Gate Assault and just Great Fox instead. (I'm not really kidding about that last one, I hate Orbital Gate Assault but it's so pretty.)

Though, doesn't Wii Fit Studio have randomised platform layouts like Gamer?