Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[Infinite901]

Already seeing people in other places saying that "EVO proved that FLSS is pointless" becausemost matches went to Smashville and BF.This is... ugh, it's still untrue.

Recall Ally vs Mr R. Now, I was kinda rooting for Ally... until he gentlemen'd a Sheik to Smashville. As Mario. When he lost that match all I could think was: "He deserved it." Game two was even worse. He went Marth, a character that not only is considered mid/low tier, but is also terrible on Smashville. And on his counterpick ,he gentlemen'd a Sheik to Smashville. That. Should. Not. Happen. Really, he should have expected to lose that. Game 2 was when I lost all hope for Ally.

Just goes to show how ignorant people still are about the stages.

 

[Balgorxz]

some things I have noticed lately
smashville is becoming a bad habit for most players since they learn that stage 100% and ignore the others, I can beat a better player than me just by avoiding them picking smashville.
BF is great because its one of the only stages that you can apply pressure relatively safe and extend combos quite nicely, its not surprising all the hype matches are always on BF, just check it by yourself (check CEO and EVO vods).

 

[Piford]

Already seeing people in other places saying that "EVO proved that FLSS is pointless" becausemost matches went to Smashville and BF.This is... ugh, it's still untrue.

Recall Ally vs Mr R. Now, I was kinda rooting for Ally... until he gentlemen'd a Sheik to Smashville. As Mario. When he lost that match all I could think was: "He deserved it." Game two was even worse. He went Marth, a character that not only is considered mid/low tier, but is also terrible on Smashville. And on his counterpick ,he gentlemen'd a Sheik to Smashville. That. Should. Not. Happen. Really, he should have expected to lose that. Game 2 was when I lost all hope for Ally.

Just goes to show how ignorant people still are about the stages.

We almost saw Castle Siege game 1 and we did see Delfino Plaza game 1 once. When Castle Siege was almost picked, the commentator said something about not liking FLSS because you might end up on Castle Siege game 1. I'm just thinking, if both players think there are 4 stages that are worst to go to game 1 than Castle Siege, how is that not a fair thing.

 

[Infinite901]

We almost saw Castle Siege game 1 and we did see Delfino Plaza game 1 once. When Castle Siege was almost picked, the commentator said something about not liking FLSS because you might end up on Castle Siege game 1. I'm just thinking, if both players think there are 4 stages that are worst to go to game 1 than Castle Siege, how is that not a fair thing.

Yeah, I think that was d1.

 

[[Deuce]]

Took the liberty of providing an image of the "relevant" stages for discussion. On the right is what tournaments have mostly been running regardless of methodology (FLSS/starter-counter), on the left are the stages currently (and prospectively) under debate for legality.

I really like FLSS but I feel like the inclusion of Dreamland 64 throws things for a loop because of its heavy similarity to Battlefield. Yes, the blast zones are different (marginally), the platforms are a tiny bit shorter, and there's wind, but there's no other pairing that shares a heavy similarity as those two.

 

[MajorMajora]

Yeah, but when you compare them to Delfino, TC, FD, and DH are all pretty similar. It shouldn't shift balance too much, though, especially if we have 13 stages.

You know, if all prospective stages get included, we'd just need one more for 17, which is a good FLSS number. There's been talk of Mario circuit (WiiU) and a few others.

 

[Balgorxz]

Hyrule is definetly a good stage for doubles, I wouldn't let it be legal for singles tho

 

[[Deuce]]

Yeah, but when you compare them to Delfino, TC, FD, and DH are all pretty similar. It shouldn't shift balance too much, though, especially if we have 13 stages.

You know, if all prospective stages get included, we'd just need one more for 17, which is a good FLSS number. There's been talk of Mario circuit (WiiU) and a few others.

An issue we would like avoid is the "lazy gentlemen's" problem, where when there are too many stages for FLSS, the participants would more likely be inclined to just make a quick suggestion, usually smashville, and just gentlemen's there rather than go through the FLSS process because of the extra hassle which defeats one of the purposes of having FLSS, which is not having smashville every game 1. They did that a lot at evo even at only 9 stages

 

[Piford]

I'm pretty sure Hyrule Castle can never be legal in Smash 4 because the right side is way to strong for camping and you can live a lot longer than you should with teching.

 

[MajorMajora]

An issue we would like avoid is the "lazy gentlemen's" problem, where when there are too many stages for FLSS, the participants would more likely be inclined to just make a quick suggestion, usually smashville, and just gentlemen's there rather than go through the FLSS process because of the extra hassle which defeats one of the purposes of having FLSS, which is not having smashville every game 1. They did that a lot at evo even at only 9 stages

Honestly, if a stage is good it should be legal. After a while I really just have to say "If you don't want to take advantage of the tools in front of you it's your loss". I mean, even with only 9 almost everyone defaulted to smashville. Nothing will change untill people realize that they're being dumb, and lowering the stage list isn't going to help enough to justify doing it without any other good reason.

 

[Illuminose]

i think there is some laziness involved, but i also think it's pretty telling that no one was counterpicking delfino/halberd/siege. those stages increase variance to unhealthy levels aka are unreliable in determining who is actually the better play. hazards, low ceilings, transition jank, and weird second transformation ledges on halberd. stupid low transformations, water, and walkoffs galore on delfino. the second transformation as a whole and transition jank on castle siege. these stages add nothing to the stage list and aren't useful as competitive stages. other stages provide fine stage variety and cp usefulness, players just need to harness them in a smarter manner.

 

[Infinite901]

i think there is some laziness involved, but i also think it's pretty telling that no one was counterpicking delfino/halberd/siege. those stages increase variance to unhealthy levels aka are unreliable in determining who is actually the better play. hazards, low ceilings, transition jank, and weird second transformation ledges on halberd. stupid low transformations, water, and walkoffs galore on delfino. the second transformation as a whole and transition jank on castle siege. these stages add nothing to the stage list and aren't useful as competitive stages. other stages provide fine stage variety and cp usefulness, players just need to harness them in a smarter manner.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

i think there is some laziness involved, but i also think it's pretty telling that no one was counterpicking delfino/halberd/siege. those stages increase variance to unhealthy levels aka are unreliable in determining who is actually the better play. hazards, low ceilings, transition jank, and weird second transformation ledges on halberd. stupid low transformations, water, and walkoffs galore on delfino. the second transformation as a whole and transition jank on castle siege. these stages add nothing to the stage list and aren't useful as competitive stages. other stages provide fine stage variety and cp usefulness, players just need to harness them in a smarter manner.

Or, it's due to the high levels of bias in the Smash Community against non flat + plat stages plus FD, combined with player laziness and unwillingness to understand or even begin to learn basic stage knowledge beyond the "Smashville platform moves"

Delfino, Castle Siege and even Halberd are all good stages that reward player knowledge of the stage in different ways. They aren't popular, but having them around does not hurt the 95% of the players who go to Smashville anyway, and does nothing but benefit the 5% who put the time in to learn

Also, Infinite, don't just ****post with reaction images. It's a bit irritating and seems reminiscent of chan posters

 

[Piford]

i think there is some laziness involved, but i also think it's pretty telling that no one was counterpicking delfino/halberd/siege. those stages increase variance to unhealthy levels aka are unreliable in determining who is actually the better play. hazards, low ceilings, transition jank, and weird second transformation ledges on halberd. stupid low transformations, water, and walkoffs galore on delfino. the second transformation as a whole and transition jank on castle siege. these stages add nothing to the stage list and aren't useful as competitive stages. other stages provide fine stage variety and cp usefulness, players just need to harness them in a smarter manner.

We also didn't see people picking Lylat Cruise, Town and City, and Battlefield too often either. It's like 75% Smashville, 20% Final Destination, 5% All the other stages. That's probably a bit exaggerated, but we basically see a lot of Smashville. Those stages add as much to the stage list as every other stage. Adds value in pre-game strategy and in-game options. No other legal stage has one huge middle platform like Halberd, or hazards that can add to strategy like with the Laser and the Bomb (The claw doesn't add much, but it has so much start-up that it doesn't really take away anything either). No stage has anything close to the layout of Castle Siege's first and second transformations. Delfino has some really unique platform layouts with the one that has the really big high platform and the small middle platform and the two uneven-height middle platforms. The other two layouts are interesting variants of the pyramid 3 platform layouts. The closest legal stage (and should be legal stage) to not adding anything is Dreamland as it's very close to Battlefield, but I still think it has enough differences to warrant it being legal.

 

[Illuminose]

I meant that they add nothing to the stage list as in players don't want to go to those stages and that they are ass stages in the first place for competitive play. Respond to those points as opposed to ignoring them.

 

[[Deuce]]

Why is KJ64 banned again? They banned it at Apex and then no one brought it back up for discussion. The only argument I heard was circle camping and the footage used was a game of melee

Was there any conclusive evidence that this was a toxic stage or what

Honestly, if a stage is good it should be legal. After a while I really just have to say "If you don't want to take advantage of the tools in front of you it's your loss". I mean, even with only 9 almost everyone defaulted to smashville. Nothing will change untill people realize that they're being dumb, and lowering the stage list isn't going to help enough to justify doing it without any other good reason.

I'm pretty fine with 9 or 13. 17 is starting to be a stretch. As it gets larger and larger, a printed list at all setups becomes a necessity

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I meant that they add nothing to the stage list as in players don't want to go to those stages and that they are *** stages in the first place for competitive play. Respond to those points as opposed to ignoring them.

Okay fine sure. First off, these stages have competetive merit. IIRC, some of the people in this thread run tournaments with expansive stage lists, and have indicated no problems with running them, i.e. the best players usually score high, and that indicates that the inclusion of these stages does not have a net negative effect on the main idea of competition, i.e. who's the best. These stages all have interesting mechanics and layouts, as pointed out by Piford above, so yeah, they bring things to the table.

Also, there are players who will pick these stages, they may make up 1% of 1% of all the Smash 4 players in the world, but, there is absolutely no harm in having these stages, at all. Two players who want Smashville will still play Smashville, regardless of how many extra stages there are. And having those extra stages gives more options, which is always better. It's better to have and not need than to need and not have

Edit:

Why is KJ64 banned again? They banned it at Apex and then no one brought it back up for discussion. The only argument I heard was circle camping and the footage used was a game of melee

Was there any conclusive evidence that this was a toxic stage or what

I think there was just fear of circle camping. It was a problem in the melee days, now it's really matchup specific, but Apex ****ed us over because the Smash fanbase is hella resistant to change. Everyone follows Apex's lead, even when Apex's stage list sucked. Even EVO followed Apex.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The main problem with KJ64. imo, is the potential Barrel Camping. Not like I've ever seen it, it's still a pretty fair stage until people really begins to abuse it.


EVO followed Apex because Nintendo Copyright stuff. A true shame.

 

[[Deuce]]

The main problem with KJ64. imo, is the potential Barrel Camping. Not like I've ever seen it, it's still a pretty fair stage until people really begins to abuse it.

EVO followed Apex because Nintendo Copyright stuff. A true shame.

Isnt that considered the same as stalling tactics like keeping under smashville repeatedly? They just ban those dont they?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Isnt that considered the same as stalling tactics like keeping under smashville repeatedly? They just ban those dont they?

It is impossible to ban those tactics. Specially at fairly large events.
Then again, I haven't seen the tactic being abused.

 

[[Deuce]]

It is impossible to ban those tactics. Specially at fairly large events.
Then again, I haven't seen the tactic being abused.

Like a ledge grab limit there could be a consecutive barrel limit

 

[thehard]

Let's ban Gentlemanning. Gentlemanly behavior has no place in competitive play, and breeds thoughtless players.

I'm almost serious.

 

[Das Koopa]

When you get more and more stages that are balanced in nature, the pool either widens or stages with previously accepted flaws can become less accepted. P:M seems like a good example of the latter. More isn't necessarily better especially when some stages may have only been accepted as legal for quantity's sake to start with.

Took the liberty of providing an image of the "relevant" stages for discussion. On the right is what tournaments have mostly been running regardless of methodology (FLSS/starter-counter), on the left are the stages currently (and prospectively) under debate for legality.

I really like FLSS but I feel like the inclusion of Dreamland 64 throws things for a loop because of its heavy similarity to Battlefield. Yes, the blast zones are different (marginally), the platforms are a tiny bit shorter, and there's wind, but there's no other pairing that shares a heavy similarity as those two.

I don't think any of the stages in yellow beside Kongo Jungle should be legal.

I have no idea how Stadium 2 is still a debate when three out of four of its transformations are highly disruptive and have the potential to ruin a game. Nobody wants to see a grand finals determined by a mistake made because a player couldn't account for conveyor belts.

I'm afraid Peach's Castle 64 could have issues with people slamming their faces into the triangles and getting stage spiked. If not that, I'm concerned a well-placed tech could save someone's stock by slamming into them. It's the most acceptable one on the list besides Kongo Jungle, but imo it's still a mess.

 

[Ghostbone]

Delfino, Castle Siege and even Halberd are all good stages that reward player knowledge of the stage in different ways. They aren't popular, but having them around does not hurt the 95% of the players who go to Smashville anyway, and does nothing but benefit the 5% who put the time in to learn

There are a variety of reasons why all 3 of those are bad stages (you say rewarding player knowledge, but I'm pretty sure people all know how to abuse their properties and the issue is that these properties introduce extreme variance into results).
They do hurt those players because they lead to worse players winning against them due to luck. (castle siege not so much, that stage is pretty yuck but not really banworthy like delfino and halberd)

 

[Omegaphoenix]

When you get more and more stages that are balanced in nature, the pool either widens or stages with previously accepted flaws can become less accepted. P:M seems like a good example of the latter. More isn't necessarily better especially when some stages may have only been accepted as legal for quantity's sake to start with.




I don't think any of the stages in yellow beside Kongo Jungle should be legal.

I have no idea how Stadium 2 is still a debate when three out of four of its transformations are highly disruptive and have the potential to ruin a game. Nobody wants to see a grand finals determined by a mistake made because a player couldn't account for conveyor belts.

I'm afraid Peach's Castle 64 could have issues with people slamming their faces into the triangles and getting stage spiked. If not that, I'm concerned a well-placed tech could save someone's stock by slamming into them. It's the most acceptable one on the list besides Kongo Jungle, but imo it's still a mess.

PS2 really isn't as bad as you think. Ground is only bad if the two players are caught on the complete opposite sides of the stage, but PS1 had the fire transformation, which was just as bad about that, so Ground isn't unworkable.

Ice has two down tilted platforms, and is basically "You get a sliding upsmash, and you get a sliding upsmash, everybody gets a sliding upsmash!" Nothing awful there.

Electric rewards stage control and aerial combat like no other stage I've seen, the belts move so slow a walking Robin can keep up, and IIRC, the stage layout is consistent everytime. It's one of my favorites.

Okay yeah wind sucks, but 3 outta four ain't bad.

Also, if your only problem with Peach's castle is the fact that you can get stage spiked off the steel blocks, then as much as this argument may be dumb, git gud. Teching is not an arcane art here, and hitting the steel blocks is rare back in the 64, so I doubt they're going to be huge factors here.

There are a variety of reasons why all 3 of those are bad stages (you say rewarding player knowledge, but I'm pretty sure people all know how to abuse their properties and the issue is that these properties introduce extreme variance into results).
They do hurt those players because they lead to worse players winning against them due to luck. (castle siege not so much, that stage is pretty yuck but not really banworthy like delfino and halberd)

I suppose this is the main point of disagreement here then. I believe each of those stages has a valuable place in the stage listing. Castle siege has built in anti camping measures for part 2 and parts 1 and 3 are fine stages, Delfino is consistent everytime, so a kill off the top is usually the result of a player with better knowledge getting ready for the change, and taking advantage of the border change to kill. It's common knowledge that it does that, so players should be wary of their positioning before a switch. And Halberd's hazards are slow and predictable, with even the crane being able to be dodged or blocked on reaction. I don't think luck plays a huge factor in these stages, but I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree, as the premises of our arguments are not compatible

 

[Ghostbone]

I suppose this is the main point of disagreement here then. I believe each of those stages has a valuable place in the stage listing. Castle siege has built in anti camping measures for part 2 and parts 1 and 3 are fine stages, Delfino is consistent everytime, so a kill off the top is usually the result of a player with better knowledge getting ready for the change, and taking advantage of the border change to kill. It's common knowledge that it does that, so players should be wary of their positioning before a switch. And Halberd's hazards are slow and predictable, with even the crane being able to be dodged or blocked on reaction. I don't think luck plays a huge factor in these stages, but I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree, as the premises of our arguments are not compatible

I don't think you get it
Just because delfino is predictable doesn't mean the other player is.
Sometimes you'll be read and die at 10% while you were going for the same 10% kill on your opponent
Now is it really competitive when games consistently get decided by super low % kills? I suppose it could be, but you'd need a far higher stock count than 2 or 3.
Not to mention Sheik fair chains off the stage, and if you really expect people never to be grabbed or fair'd during a walk-off transition then you're delusional. (this happens at high level ALL THE TIME, even though they're expecting it and trying to avoid it)

As for Halberd, it doesn't matter if the hazards are slow or predictable (also unless SOMEONE tells me how you're supposed to predict who the claw targets, since it's not by how it weaves in and out in the background, that one is unpredictable even though you know the timing), the point is the laser ****s up recoveries unfairly (inb4 you tell me that players should just avoid ever having to recover lmao) and the visuals don't match the hitbox. The claw hits you in the middle of your combo, or extends your combo randomly, which is entirely unfair (you can plan for it, and either drop your combo because of a 50:50 chance or attempt to keep it going, either way you're basically playing the slots, which isn't competitive).
And again this stage features the same problems as delfino with its ceiling (though to a lesser degree). You can get grabbed by rosalina at 30 and die. Other characters feature kill setups/combos that don't work on any other stage just because of the low ceiling. This isn't about people killing earlier, it's about people killing with stuff that wouldn't work anywhere else and at stupidly low %s, which introduces a lot of variance into results, which is synonymous with being far less competitive.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I don't think you get it
Just because delfino is predictable doesn't mean the other player is.
Sometimes you'll be read and die at 10% while you were going for the same 10% kill on your opponent
Now is it really competitive when games consistently get decided by super low % kills? I suppose it could be, but you'd need a far higher stock count than 2 or 3.
Not to mention Sheik fair chains off the stage, and if you really expect people never to be grabbed or fair'd during a walk-off transition then you're delusional. (this happens at high level ALL THE TIME, even though they're expecting it and trying to avoid it)

As for Halberd, it doesn't matter if the hazards are slow or predictable (also unless SOMEONE tells me how you're supposed to predict who the claw targets, since it's not by how it weaves in and out in the background, that one is unpredictable even though you know the timing), the point is the laser ****s up recoveries unfairly (inb4 you tell me that players should just avoid ever having to recover lmao) and the visuals don't match the hitbox. The claw hits you in the middle of your combo, or extends your combo randomly, which is entirely unfair (you can plan for it, and either drop your combo because of a 50:50 chance or attempt to keep it going, either way you're basically playing the slots, which isn't competitive).
And again this stage features the same problems as delfino with its ceiling (though to a lesser degree). You can get grabbed by rosalina at 30 and die. Other characters feature kill setups/combos that don't work on any other stage just because of the low ceiling. This isn't about people killing earlier, it's about people killing with stuff that wouldn't work anywhere else and at stupidly low %s, which introduces a lot of variance into results, which is synonymous with being far less competitive.

Sheik chains happen on Smashville all the time, 10 % kills happen on Smashville all the time thanks to the platform, ban Smashville. Smashville is clearly non competetive, after all these early kill methods don't work on other stages, so it should be gone.

Every stage has some problems, but these stages don't have game breaking problems. The ceiling change on delfino does not take up a large portion of time, and every game I've played on it I've never really had a problems. And if you got outplayed going for that 10% kill, then that's just a balancing of risk and reward, it's a volatile situation that has a high reward, but also high risk.

And Halberd's claw, as I mentioned, can be blocked or dodged on reaction. If you're doing an combo and get hit by the claw, then you took a risk, and it didn't work out. Personally I don't like the claw, but I find it's influence really not a huge problem. The cannon and the ball have a huge startup, so they are also not a problem. The big problem I have with Halberd is the low ceiling, and even that I'm willing to forgive because I like the layout.

 

[MajorMajora]

Honestly I find low percent kills a bit hard to take complaints about low percent kills on stages seriously when we have FD in melee where 0-deaths off of a single confirm are one of the features of the stage. Yeah, they take skill, but so does lining up your kill move/string with the changing of DP's blastzone. And so does making sure you avoid confrontation when you can get KO'd there. And sure if neither player learns to do those things it's random, but in that case it's their own fault.

 

[Infinite901]

Also, Infinite, don't just ****post with reaction images. It's a bit irritating and seems reminiscent of chan posters

Np... I just can't really take these posts seriously anymore.


Actually contributing to discussion, I feel of all the current legal stages Halberd is really the most questionable. Really I would much rather have Wuhu or Skyloft before Halberd, especially if we're gonna get stuck with a 9-stage list.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Np... I just can't really take these posts seriously anymore.


Actually contributing to discussion, I feel of all the current legal stages Halberd is really the most questionable. Really I would much rather have Wuhu or Skyloft before Halberd, especially if we're gonna get stuck with a 9-stage list.

Time to butt in

As a ZSS main, I ****ing love Halberd. This stage is a death sentence to whoever tries to fight me there. The blast zone is low enough for the uAir > uAir > uSpecial combo to kill as soon as the uSpecial starts, meaning at ~35% until over ~60%.
I honestly feel like this stage nets some characters too early kills.
The grab arm thingy being much more precise than it was in brawl doesn't help either.
The only reason why I have tolerated this stage so far is because your opponent can just ban it, but if I had to choose, I would probably pick Skyloft over it (regarding legality of course).

Wuhu on the other hand fells like it has too many "bad" transformations but that's low tested personal bias.

 

[Infinite901]

Time to butt in

As a ZSS main, I ****ing love Halberd. This stage is a death sentence to whoever tries to fight me there. The blast zone is low enough for the uAir > uAir > uSpecial combo to kill as soon as the uSpecial starts, meaning at ~35% until over ~60%.
I honestly feel like this stage nets some characters too early kills.
The grab arm thingy being much more precise than it was in brawl doesn't help either.
The only reason why I have tolerated this stage so far is because your opponent can just ban it, but if I had to choose, I would probably pick Skyloft over it (regarding legality of course).

Wuhu on the other hand fells like it has too many "bad" transformations but that's low tested personal bias.

Yeah, the Volcano and Fountain lead to some pretty bad campfests, and the Boat and Bridge are a little iffy. However, it's pretty much the only good CP for floaties besides Kongo, and neither are on the current list. (Skyloft is ok for floaties though)

 

[Piford]

I meant that they add nothing to the stage list as in players don't want to go to those stages and that they are *** stages in the first place for competitive play. Respond to those points as opposed to ignoring them.

There are people who want to use them and think they are good stages, hence why people are arguing for their inclusion. When creating a ruleset, we want to be as objective as possible. If a stage is banned, it should be for very specific reasons as to why it is. Stuff like Ridley making skill meaningless on Pyrosphere and Circle-camping being unbeatable on Temple are legitimate reasons for banning stages. Also, I'm not ignoring your points. I clearly responded by saying that players aren't really taking advantage of the stage list at all. If you were banning stages just because people don't use them, then you'd probably have to ban every stage besides Smashville, and maybe FD. Also, people not going to them is not a legitimate reason to ban a stage in the first place. If players want to handicap themselves by not taking advantage of the stage list then let them. I mean were not going to ban Zelda just because not a lot of top players pick her. By banning stages because some players don't use them, your just catering the ruleset to being worse and lazy at the game. We should let the people who want to take advantage of all their fair options do so, not ban them just to make the people who don't have the advantage.

 

[Illuminose]

There are people who want to use them and think they are good stages, hence why people are arguing for their inclusion. When creating a ruleset, we want to be as objective as possible. If a stage is banned, it should be for very specific reasons as to why it is. Stuff like Ridley making skill meaningless on Pyrosphere and Circle-camping being unbeatable on Temple are legitimate reasons for banning stages. Also, I'm not ignoring your points. I clearly responded by saying that players aren't really taking advantage of the stage list at all. If you were banning stages just because people don't use them, then you'd probably have to ban every stage besides Smashville, and maybe FD. Also, people not going to them is not a legitimate reason to ban a stage in the first place. If players want to handicap themselves by not taking advantage of the stage list then let them. I mean were not going to ban Zelda just because not a lot of top players pick her. By banning stages because some players don't use them, your just catering the ruleset to being worse and lazy at the game. We should let the people who want to take advantage of all their fair options do so, not ban them just to make the people who don't have the advantage.

No, you still completely ignored my point. I said that the stages have elements that skew the impact of player skill and moreover heavily increase variance, which is why top players don't like choosing those stages. I also included reasons as to why this is.

 

[MajorMajora]

No, you still completely ignored my point. I said that the stages have elements that skew the impact of player skill and moreover heavily increase variance, which is why top players don't like choosing those stages. I also included reasons as to why this is.

Halberd, Delfino, Wuhu, Skyloft, PS2, etc. have a degree of variance that is a non-factor assuming both players have learned the stage. If not, then the one who has learned the stage will be the one who derives an advantage. In that sense the more skilled player (the one with more game knowledge and stage awareness) is getting an advantage, which I see no problem with. The only time there is a level of variance you could call at all significant is when neither player is educated, which is entirely the player's fault, not the rulesets. If 2 players pick characters neither of them know anything about, the results definitely will feel pretty random to a degree.

 

[Das Koopa]

PS2 really isn't as bad as you think. Ground is only bad if the two players are caught on the complete opposite sides of the stage, but PS1 had the fire transformation, which was just as bad about that, so Ground isn't unworkable.

Ice has two down tilted platforms, and is basically "You get a sliding upsmash, and you get a sliding upsmash, everybody gets a sliding upsmash!" Nothing awful there.

Electric rewards stage control and aerial combat like no other stage I've seen, the belts move so slow a walking Robin can keep up, and IIRC, the stage layout is consistent everytime. It's one of my favorites.

Okay yeah wind sucks, but 3 outta four ain't bad.

My problem with these transformations is that they force a change of gameplay on the spot, most of the time by changing the physics of the stage, thus altering movement in ways that could benefit some characters over others. I don't like the idea of the game altering physics mid-match - it forces you to learn and account for random transformations that drastically alter how you play your gameplay, which is something no legal stage in the series does.

Even the Stadium 1 transformations just put things at a stalemate for a 20-30 second period unless the fighters engage, but only one of those (the mountain) persistently seems to do this. The fire transformation is inconsistent in how it affects the match, and the water transformation is pretty much fine.

But still, PS1 is Melee's only counterpick because of these factors. It only affects the terrain temporarily, with only 1/3 of those transformations because especially advantageous to Fox.

I think training on a stage and becoming more experienced with it is fine and good and that we need more variety than *whistling intensifies*, but I don't agree with that ideology being extended to stages with highly disruptive elements. Especially when we have upwards of ten potential legal stages, most of which having no disruptive elements.

Also, if your only problem with Peach's castle is the fact that you can get stage spiked off the steel blocks, then as much as this argument may be dumb, git gud. Teching is not an arcane art here, and hitting the steel blocks is rare back in the 64, so I doubt they're going to be huge factors here.

The bigger problem with Peach's Castle is that techable steel blocks can prevent KOs and the bumper is potentially disruptive. Coming from a long-time Melee fan, I find little things like the Shy Guys in Yoshi's Story and the PS1 transformations that force stopped gameplay (except the balanced water one) to be annoying enough, but those issues rarely determine a match.

Peach's Castle's blocks that can be teched and the bumper have far more disruption potential, but the stage is legal in Smash64. Differences in game engine need to be accounted for here: Hyrule is commonly gentlemanned in 64, but it wouldn't be acceptable in Smash 4 because the camping potential increases exponentially due to the difference in game engines.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Also, if your only problem with Peach's castle is the fact that you can get stage spiked off the steel blocks, then as much as this argument may be dumb, git gud. Teching is not an arcane art here, and hitting the steel blocks is rare back in the 64, so I doubt they're going to be huge factors here.

But that you can tech them is the problem here. Just DI to them and live forever.

 

[Piford]

No, you still completely ignored my point. I said that the stages have elements that skew the impact of player skill and moreover heavily increase variance, which is why top players don't like choosing those stages. I also included reasons as to why this is.

There's nothing inherently uncompetitive about the elements you mentioned though. They're reasons some people may dislike the stages, but they are not uncompetitive (sorry I got confused with what you were saying btw). Let's start with the easiest one to explain, water. There is nothing uncompetitive about it. It's an element of the stage just like a platform is. Nothing about water will make the better player lose. You have to play with water differently than without, but that doesn't make it uncompetitive.

Next, I'll cover walk-offs. The main issue that most people have with walk-offs is walk-off camping. Walk-off camping doesn't work on temporary walk-offs, since they are temporary. First off, you need to have the situation where walk-off camping would be successful occur. This is one person at one stock ahead be at a very high percent, to the point where they will die regardless, so having that occur when a walk-off appears is going to be pretty rare. Next is combating it. See, the person camping the walk-off is at a disadvantage because you can use pretty much any of your moves to kill them, but they can only use backthrow. That matters very little though because the person walk-off camping has no reason to approach. See the walk-off will disappear since it's temporary. This forces the camper to approach their opponent, which is a disadvantageous situation. They also likely have to recover to the stage (if they don't, they really couldn't have been at the walk-off long enough to consider it camping), which is another bad situation to be in. This means it's very easy to punish the camper. To add insult to injury, they gave up stage control. So they lost a lot and gained nothing from walk-off camping. This would mean its a bad strategy and you shouldn't do it. Not a very good thing to ban a stage over. The other issue some people have is being able to combo into the blastzone very easily, but that that's even easier to do on smashville with the moving platform. Banning them for that reason means you must ban Smashville too, which isn't going to happen. I mean I've seen jab combos kill on Smashville's platform, and that leaves players very salty. It's still not a good reason to ban a stage in the first place since there's nothing uncompetitive about it.

Next is low ceiling. Low ceiling mean that vertical kill moves will kill earlier. It does mean that there's probably going to be a couple fewer interactions, but it's not going to make the worse player lose. On Delfino, it's only a really low ceiling for a couple of seconds, so it's easy to avoid any interactions that will lead to an early death. On Halberd, the ceiling is only a bit lower than normal. Things will kill earlier, but it's not a huge deal. The only moves that will kill like absurdly early is Boost Kick and Luma's up-air, but those kill absurdly early on normal stages too and you can just ban the stage against those two characters.

Also you said transformations, but there's nothing inherently uncompetitive about a stage transforming. In fact, it could add competitiveness by being a more balanced stage do to having various layouts that benefit different characters.

 

[Tinkerer]

But that you can tech them is the problem here. Just DI to them and live forever.

This is honestly something to try out. They are pretty damn small compared to actual caves of life like stages like Gamer can have, but they might be a problem - or not at all. They're really unique, and there aren't really any stages in games with teching with similarish ceilings up high (the closest you get is something like Reset Bomb Forest or maybe Skyworld, but they have much more area with ceilings and have other issues), so the only way to see is to play a bunch on it.

I'd love for it to be legal because it's such a unique layout on the bottom part.

 

[Ghostbone]

Honestly I find low percent kills a bit hard to take complaints about low percent kills on stages seriously when we have FD in melee where 0-deaths off of a single confirm are one of the features of the stage. Yeah, they take skill, but so does lining up your kill move/string with the changing of DP's blastzone. And so does making sure you avoid confrontation when you can get KO'd there. And sure if neither player learns to do those things it's random, but in that case it's their own fault.

And I find it hard to take comparisons to Melee seriously since it's a different game with a higher stock count and more volatile risk/reward in general.

Halberd, Delfino, Wuhu, Skyloft, PS2, etc. have a degree of variance that is a non-factor assuming both players have learned the stage. If not, then the one who has learned the stage will be the one who derives an advantage. In that sense the more skilled player (the one with more game knowledge and stage awareness) is getting an advantage, which I see no problem with. The only time there is a level of variance you could call at all significant is when neither player is educated, which is entirely the player's fault, not the rulesets. If 2 players pick characters neither of them know anything about, the results definitely will feel pretty random to a degree.

Lmao
You really think people don't know about the changing blastzones?
Everyone knows, and everyone plays around it, but guess what, people still get killed by it/get kills of it because there's an opponent. (**** these are these same arguments people tried to use to get Pictochat legal in Brawl -_-)
And these low % kills do introduce extreme variance (the reason people counterpick delfino is to try and get lucky early % KOs, that's very telling in itself)
Telling people to educate themselves is hilarious, the fact that you think that most people don't know how the stage works is fairly delusional.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

There are other reasons a character might wish to go to Delphino. Just as an example, at the last local I went to I got to commentate a match in GF where the Meta Knight player took Sheik there to use the non-transformed state as an opportunity to shark under the stage. Of course, low ceiling also benefits MK's best vertical launcher (shuttle loop), but that doesn't necessarily mean he's trying to "get lucky," that's just practical application of your stage and character knowledge. I believe he still ended up losing that match anyways.

On Halberd's claw: the only time it's unclear which player it is targeting is if you're currently partaking in CQC with the other player. At the same tournament, a player counter-picked the stage against me. When I saw the claw had activated, I chose to back off a bit to determine which player it was targeting. When I realized it was my opponent, I retreated to the opposite side of the stage. Poor placement of his fire hydrant (he was using Pac-man) caused him to get pushed into the claw. While that *did* win me the match and set, it's important to note he could have not only avoided the claw, but predicted it with proper stage knowledge. The other hazards are even more telegraphed than the claw!

I wouldn't even say that they randomly extend or end combos early. All three hazards of the stage are telegraphed beforehand, and it's up to the player currently on offence to make a decision on whether to continue applying pressure and taking the risk of mis-spacing and getting hit, or backing off in order to maintain stage control. I've intentionally used both the laser and cannonball hazards as combo extensions before, as well. If you get hit by any of the hazards, that means you lacked proper control of the stage.