Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[DUKEL]

What I meant to say was that it is not intrusive, not obstructive. Dealing with a static element like this is not the same as dealing with a stage hazard that actively targets you and poses a serious immediate threat, for instance.

It's obstructive. If you call a wall that blocks a vertical/horizontal kill not obstructive... As I said before, you're ignoring common sense to argue for a poor competitive course. Please stop.

Most transformations have walls? There are 9 transformations, of which 3 of them have a single blast zone area blocked off; one on the left, one on the right, one on the ceiling. Your hyperboles do not make your argument compelling nor logical.

In the matches I played so I could make this argument, it seemed like 3/5 times the stage transformed, there would be a wall or ceiling. Considering that I never play on the stage it should come as no surprise to you that I did not know the precise number of transformations the stage has. It wasn't an intentional hyperbole, as I did not know I was exaggerating. You know more about Mario Circuit than anyone else here, and expecting us to know the same amount as you about a stage that isn't even legal does not make your argument compelling nor logical.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The really funny thing going on right now is people debating Mario Citcuit like any TO running a major tournament would ever legalize it to matter. I don't wanna come off as snarky, but folks need to have some of their expectations fixed up a bit. A lot of stages will never be legal ever just due to public biases. It's not logical, but it won't be changing. The stages people should be focusing on should at least have a shot of passing the "socially acceptable" test. The only ones I know of not current legal almost everywhere are Skyloft and Wuhu Island (with PS2 being a HUGE maybe depending on region).

 

[cot(θ)]

You know more about Mario Circuit than anyone else here, and expecting us to know the same amount as you about a stage that isn't even legal does not make your argument compelling nor logical.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-circuit-stage-research.379610/

I know not everyone is aware of these threads, but please take a couple of minutes to read the stage research thread before discussing whether the stage should be legal.

 

[DUKEL]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-circuit-stage-research.379610/

I know not everyone is aware of these threads, but please take a couple of minutes to read the stage research thread before discussing whether the thread should be legal.

Well it turns out that there are 8 transformations, not 9, and that there's also a way to get instantly killed by the stage on a certain transformation, and we don't even know how it's caused. Thanks cot. Now the stage definitely shouldn't be legal. Can we please talk about stages that aren't as glitchy as MC?

 

[Ulevo]

It's obstructive. If you call a wall that blocks a vertical/horizontal kill not obstructive... As I said before, you're ignoring common sense to argue for a poor competitive course. Please stop.
In the matches I played so I could make this argument, it seemed like 3/5 times the stage transformed, there would be a wall or ceiling. Considering that I never play on the stage it should come as no surprise to you that I did not know the precise number of transformations the stage has. It wasn't an intentional hyperbole, as I did not know I was exaggerating. You know more about Mario Circuit than anyone else here, and expecting us to know the same amount as you about a stage that isn't even legal does not make your argument compelling nor logical.

I already just told you I meant intrusive, not obstructive, though the latter point is a matter of measure. Thanks for avoiding any redundancy in the conversation.

Considering that you never play on the stage it should come as no surprise that you do not know what you are really talking about, logically speaking. You argue with me, tell me I am wrong, yet you admit you are ignorant of how the stage operates? I put the research threads in the opening posts on purpose so I would not have to deal with conversations like this, which are a waste of time.

If you have a point, make it fairly, and make it an educated one.

Well it turns out that there are 8 transformations, not 9, and that there's also a way to get instantly killed by the stage on a certain transformation, and we don't even know how it's caused. Thanks cot. Now the stage definitely shouldn't be legal. Can we please talk about stages that aren't as glitchy as MC?

If you include the platform that the stage rides on, that is 9 transformations. We do know how this bug occurs. You need to be touching the track's ceiling on the exact frame it leaves that transformation, or you need to be really high in to the track as it transitions. The first instance is very rare as it a precise timing, and the second one has to be be done rather deliberately.

The really funny thing going on right now is people debating Mario Citcuit like any TO running a major tournament would ever legalize it to matter. I don't wanna come off as snarky, but folks need to have some of their expectations fixed up a bit. A lot of stages will never be legal ever just due to public biases. It's not logical, but it won't be changing. The stages people should be focusing on should at least have a shot of passing the "socially acceptable" test. The only ones I know of not current legal almost everywhere are Skyloft and Wuhu Island (with PS2 being a HUGE maybe depending on region).

With this sort of mind set, little really gets accomplished. I cannot really say I side with it. This is the sort of perception that would have had customs shunted out of the competitive scene if it were not for players like Amazing Ampharos taking the deliberate time to talk, debate, explore and explain the options available.

 

[LiteralGrill]

With this sort of mind set, little really gets accomplished. I cannot really say I side with it. This is the sort of perception that would have had customs shunted out of the competitive scene if it were not for players like Amazing Ampharos taking the deliberate time to talk, debate, explore and explain the options available.

The major difference with customs was a sizable enough portion of the playerbase actually wanting to try them. Just go look through the history of Brawl and stage discussion. Tons of stages were getting debated that no major tournament ever played on nor cared about said debates. If people wanna see any sort of change or more stages, they need to actually act on the ones that have a chance instead of sitting on the ones that will never even be considered by the general populace.

 

[Ulevo]

The major difference with customs was a sizable enough portion of the playerbase actually wanting to try them. Just go look through the history of Brawl and stage discussion. Tons of stages were getting debated that no major tournament ever played on nor cared about said debates. If people wanna see any sort of change or more stages, they need to actually act on the ones that have a chance instead of sitting on the ones that will never even be considered by the general populace.

I will agree to disagree on this. I appreciate you have a pragmatic view, but I do not necessarily see it as being correct.

 

[DUKEL]

If you have a point, make it fairly, and make it an educated one.

If you include the platform that the stage rides on, that is 9 transformations. We do know how this bug occurs. You need to be touching the track's ceiling on the exact frame it leaves that transformation, or you need to be really high in to the track as it transitions. The first instance is very rare as it a precise timing, and the second one has to be be done rather deliberately.

I find it amusing that you told me to be educated, then proceeded to show how uneducated you were. Go to the link that cot provided and watch the second video in the thread.

The fact that there is confusion over which instant kill that the stage has is actually hilarious. Both of the instant kills can be done on accident, and aren't MU specific. Thus, the stage should be banned. If not for all the reasons I've already given, then at least due to the fact that there are two transformations that can have an instant kill upon transformation.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

You are given warning by the visuals in the background. The track does not haphazardly deviate from its circuit around the track, it stops in different locations. As long as you know where you are on the track, which is easy, this is a non-issue. This is not hard to memorize at all.

Having to differentiate which patch of grass in the background means I'm in danger of getting killed at 130% isn't exactly my idea of being given clear warning. We simply don't have to settle for a stage that requires us to track the background in order to not die.

But yeah, as there is apparently a SECOND instant kill glitch there's absolutely no way anyone should consider this stage fit for tournaments. Discussing it further is unnecessary (found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1uiTvankNo)

I highly suggest we go with @ LiteralGrill 's suggestion and discuss a stage that someone might actually consider putting in a tournament. How about Skyloft?

I'm going to be the badguy here and say I don't think we should include Skyloft in tournaments anymore. Clipping through the stage is not acceptable, especially when it leads to a loss of stock. It's frankly embarrassing when it happens, and if it ever happened during a major tournament, the community would lose a lot of face. Like, how are other gaming communities supposed to take Smash 4 seriously when we knowingly use such glitchy stages in our tournaments?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm going to be the badguy here and say I don't think we should include Skyloft in tournaments anymore. Clipping through the stage is not acceptable, especially when it leads to a loss of stock. It's frankly embarrassing when it happens, and if it ever happened during a major tournament, the community would lose a lot of face. Like, how are other gaming communities supposed to take Smash 4 seriously when we knowingly use such glitchy stages in our tournaments?

uhm... by learning and preventing them? I mean, GnW's Dthrow setups are powerful (0-T-D) but you don't see that strategy dominating because people can learn how to avoid it and so it isn't really good even. You know what's funny? Most of them have learned it without even playing *with* the character, but against it and maybe most of them fave fallen for its tricks few times before realizing how to beat it.
I do not see how learning which phases/transitions/transformations/specific points are dangerous is different from that.


Now the link you posted featured a major glitch (apparently hard, if even possible to replicate?), we are not sure if it's a stage-specific issue, a transforming stage thing, or hard data that has 1/1000000 chances of happening on Smashville. that last sentence was done without really knowing much about the glitch, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, just prove it and don't be harsh, I swear I won't get all defensive

 

[Ulevo]

I find it amusing that you told me to be educated, then proceeded to show how uneducated you were. Go to the link that cot provided and watch the second video in the thread.

The fact that there is confusion over which instant kill that the stage has is actually hilarious. Both of the instant kills can be done on accident, and aren't MU specific. Thus, the stage should be banned. If not for all the reasons I've already given, then at least due to the fact that there are two transformations that can have an instant kill upon transformation.

You are an idiot. It is not an instant kill. You tech the floor and literally nothing happens. This also only happens on a single transformation. We are finished talking.

Having to differentiate which patch of grass in the background means I'm in danger of getting killed at 130% isn't exactly my idea of being given clear warning. We simply don't have to settle for a stage that requires us to track the background in order to not die.

Yeah, you are right. Being aware of your surroundings is quite difficult.

But yeah, as there is apparently a SECOND instant kill glitch there's absolutely no way anyone should consider this stage fit for tournaments. Discussing it further is unnecessary (found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1uiTvankNo)

This is not a glitch. All that is happening is the player is repeatedly bouncing off the floor and hitting the track because they are failing to tech. That video was posted in the discussion I made in the opening post. Maybe if you actually read it, you would have known.

 

[DUKEL]

uhm... by learning and preventing them? I mean, GnW's Dthrow setups are powerful (0-T-D) but you don't see that strategy dominating because people can learn how to avoid it and so it isn't really good even. You know what's funny? Most of them have learned it without even playing *with* the character, but against it and maybe most of them fave fallen for its tricks few times before realizing how to beat it.
I do not see how learning which phases/transitions/transformations/specific points are dangerous is different from that.

I take it you didn't watch CEO doubles, where that 0-T-D GnW strategy literally dominated the tournament. Mr. R and Anti wouldn't have won if it weren't for the strategy that you just said wasn't viable. I understand the analogy, but it really doesn't work anymore.

Anyway, about skyloft. Here's a 10 minute video with every oddity that Skyloft has. There are even inconsistencies within how Skyloft's hazards operate. Some moving objects in the background you can clip through. Some moving objects give you 12% damage. Sometimes the floor damages you on takeoff, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it damages you on landing while the stage is transforming into it, sometimes it doesn't exist, and sometimes it doesn't do anything. All depending on the transformation. I'm primarily anti-Skyloft because of how inconsistent its oddness is.

You are an idiot. It is not an instant kill. You tech the floor and literally nothing happens. This also only happens on a single transformation. We are finished talking.

Yeah, you are right. Being aware of your surroundings is quite difficult.

This is not a glitch. All that is happening is the player is repeatedly bouncing off the floor and hitting the track because they are failing to tech. That video was posted in the discussion I made in the opening post. Maybe if you actually read it, you would have known.

Did you even...
watch the video? Watch it to the end, like the guy commentating the video tells you to do, and you might actually start to talk about the same thing we are.

Calling me the idiot smh.

 

[Ulevo]

Alright, this was my error.

This being said, there is no confirmation that this exists still, unless someone can actually replicate it. This was two patches ago.

EDIT: After investigation, I found this video and this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp5Mq5o0B08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLzXO6dIeg

This is definitely a concerning problem. I have not had this happen to me in my games, but it seems frequent enough to deem the stage unfit to play on. The comment in the first video said that this was still prevalent a month ago. I do not know if that means it is out in the latest patch, so all I can say is that I will try to play on more Mario Circuit to see if anything has been fixed, though it might be difficult without knowing the specific element that causes it.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Having to differentiate which patch of grass in the background means I'm in danger of getting killed at 130% isn't exactly my idea of being given clear warning. We simply don't have to settle for a stage that requires us to track the background in order to not die.

But yeah, as there is apparently a SECOND instant kill glitch there's absolutely no way anyone should consider this stage fit for tournaments. Discussing it further is unnecessary (found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1uiTvankNo)

I highly suggest we go with @ LiteralGrill 's suggestion and discuss a stage that someone might actually consider putting in a tournament. How about Skyloft?

I'm going to be the badguy here and say I don't think we should include Skyloft in tournaments anymore. Clipping through the stage is not acceptable, especially when it leads to a loss of stock. It's frankly embarrassing when it happens, and if it ever happened during a major tournament, the community would lose a lot of face. Like, how are other gaming communities supposed to take Smash 4 seriously when we knowingly use such glitchy stages in our tournaments?

We still use PS1 as a counterpick in Melee, and if I remember correctly, clipping through the fire transformation is not unheard of.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We still use PS1 as a counterpick in Melee, and if I remember correctly, clipping through the fire transformation is not unheard of.

Happened at APEX 2015 even, on stream at that. (That said my Google-fu is weak and I can't find the video/gif/whatever. I know it exists though.)

 

[DUKEL]

Happened at APEX 2015 even, on stream at that. (That said my Google-fu is weak and I can't find the video/gif/whatever. I know it exists though.)

Here you go: https://gfycat.com/DopeyLikableLangur

 

[A_Kae]

Melee doesn't exactly have many legal stages to choose from. A rare clipping issue is probably worth accepting in that situation.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Melee doesn't exactly have many legal stages to choose from. A rare clipping issue is probably worth accepting in that situation.

tbh, I think it can just get banned and few people of their community would complain.

I take it you didn't watch CEO doubles, where that 0-T-D GnW strategy literally dominated the tournament. Mr. R and Anti wouldn't have won if it weren't for the strategy that you just said wasn't viable. I understand the analogy, but it really doesn't work anymore.

Was in the whole Doubles Tournament though? Sorry, I didn't watch it because job :/

 

[DUKEL]

Was in the whole Doubles Tournament though? Sorry, I didn't watch it because job :/

It really was. Shiek/G&W teams were strong, since Shiek's first hit of up-b fills up two slots of G&W's bucket, and two of Shiek's up-bs in a bucket is an instant kill. There were probably 4 Shiek/G&W teams.

Mr. R and Anti went from being two games down in losers, to winning everything just because they switched from shiek/mario to shiek/G&W. After the switch, they won 5 games in a row. There were so many hype doubles matches. Those weren't any of them.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The really funny thing going on right now is people debating Mario Citcuit like any TO running a major tournament would ever legalize it to matter. I don't wanna come off as snarky, but folks need to have some of their expectations fixed up a bit. A lot of stages will never be legal ever just due to public biases. It's not logical, but it won't be changing. The stages people should be focusing on should at least have a shot of passing the "socially acceptable" test. The only ones I know of not current legal almost everywhere are Skyloft and Wuhu Island (with PS2 being a HUGE maybe depending on region).

**** this attitude. And **** the ****ty scrubs who encourage it. And **** the ****ty TOs who don't have the strength of conscience to stand up for what's right. And **** me for being a disgusting ****ing hypocrite.

I highly suggest we go with @ LiteralGrill 's suggestion and discuss a stage that someone might actually consider putting in a tournament. How about Skyloft?

How about Town and City? There seems to be some controversy about that one.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

If you'll indulge me in some speculation, if Sakurai ends up releasing Hyrule Castle 64 and Peach's Castle 64, what's the possibility that they'll end up being legal stages in tournament?

edit: if a visual of these stages in a smash 4 context helps, here's the clip of Sakurai showing footage of those 2 stages

 

[Omegaphoenix]

If you'll indulge me in some speculation, if Sakurai ends up releasing Hyrule Castle 64 and Peach's Castle 64, what's the possibility that they'll end up being legal stages in tournament?

edit: if a visual of these stages in a smash 4 context helps, here's the clip of Sakurai showing footage of those 2 stages

Peach's castle, is probably near 100 percent likely. The ledges can be grabbed now, which according to Smashpedia, is one of the player bases main problems with it. All that's left is the bumper, and honestly, I can't see that being a problem to the extent it would ban it. Maybe a counterpick in the extreme conservative regions, but I doubt it.

Though East Coast will still probably ban it, the pricks.

Hyrule is a more problematic stage, though I'd still play it. It's a bit large, and, I think the tornadoes are random, though correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while. While I think there are some camping concerns, I think the more liberal stage areas will have it as counterpick, while conservatives will ban it.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

If you'll indulge me in some speculation, if Sakurai ends up releasing Hyrule Castle 64 and Peach's Castle 64, what's the possibility that they'll end up being legal stages in tournament?

Too soon to say for sure since we obviously don't have data on the size of these stages, what the unique elements will do within the Smash 4 engine (How does tornado work in this game? How frequently does it appear and does its appearance come in randomly or is it at fixed areas/patterns?), and determine things such as whether the topmost slopes along the sides of Peach's Castle, for instance, will allow characters to survive much longer than they probably should and things like the bumper. So much to study up on regarding those stages, and the legality of them is not something that can be for certain beyond speculation.

With Peach's Castle at least the bridge...thing along the lower most part of the stage can be grabbed unlike the original. It's all about whether certain parts of a stage will deem too strong of a position, I feel, to certain characters and giving them unfair advantages, and whether the light "hazard" which is the bumper and the slopes will make the stage unsuitable for competition. This was a counterpick in the original despite the lack of grabbable edges anywhere for quite some time.

Then with Hyrule, again, knowing what the tornado does and what percentages that can kill people at if at all will be important to know. There's also a matter of the "combo tent" which could and probably will allow characters to survive at high percentages by teching off the ceiling of the underside of that tent repeatedly (cave of life). The size will have to be looked into, as well, might and likely will get the Dreamland 64 treatment with closer blastzones for an overall less massive space. Another counterpick and legal stage for so long until it was deemed noncompetitive for N64 Smash, but hey, you never know how this stage will be treated in Smash 4.

I say we all be open-minded about them and come to a general consensus after extensive testing from there.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Peach's castle, is probably near 100 percent likely. The ledges can be grabbed now, which according to Smashpedia, is one of the player bases main problems with it. All that's left is the bumper, and honestly, I can't see that being a problem to the extent it would ban it. Maybe a counterpick in the extreme conservative regions, but I doubt it.

Though East Coast will still probably ban it, the pricks.

Hyrule is a more problematic stage, though I'd still play it. It's a bit large, and, I think the tornadoes are random, though correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while. While I think there are some camping concerns, I think the more liberal stage areas will have it as counterpick, while conservatives will ban it.

I hope they end up being good, legal stages, though as an east coaster I grown at the mention of my region not getting to enjoy them. I have another concern though, and that's the size of those stages. Maybe it'll change between now and when they come out, but from the footage they seem... big. Like, really big. I thought Kongo Jungle 64 was a big stage, but at least that stage didn't grow to match the bigger models. Is the apparent hugeness of Hyrule Castle 64 and Peach's Castle 64 from the smash 4 footage real or is that just something I'm imagining?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I hope they end up being good, legal stages, though as an east coaster I grown at the mention of my region not getting to enjoy them. I have another concern though, and that's the size of those stages. Maybe it'll change between now and when they come out, but from the footage they seem... big. Like, really big. I thought Kongo Jungle 64 was a big stage, but at least that stage didn't grow to match the bigger models. Is the apparent hugeness of Hyrule Castle 64 and Peach's Castle 64 from the smash 4 footage real or is that just something I'm imagining?

Hyrule Castle was pretty much always that big. Peach's castle maybe got a small size increase, but nothing substantial looking, at least to me.

And as a fellow East Coaster, I share your plight. I pratically gotta fight for Duck Hunt and Lylat with the people at my College

 

[LiteralGrill]

**** this attitude. And **** the ****ty scrubs who encourage it. And **** the ****ty TOs who don't have the strength of conscience to stand up for what's right. And **** me for being a disgusting ****ing hypocrite.

Whether you enjoy it or not, Smash is a highly political place to be for the competitive scene. Things are NOT always dictated by reason and logic, and this will not be likely changing at any time in the future. People in this thread should realize that, and if they want a shift in attitudes to start in a reasonable space with potential to grow so folks will start actually using proper reasoning to make decisions.

I'll give you a good hint though, no one is gonna ***ing listen to folks to ***ing talk like this all the ***ing time. People gotta present themselves in a professional manner if they want others to listen, and be shown to be a great person people would want to make their decisions.

While I really don't mind seeing debate on tougher stages in here, just remember other folks duck in here to see what kind of discussions are taking place and use hyperbolic statements about them when discussing it in the general public. Those folks wont care at all about the actual truth, they'll go parrot whatever they heard to others and they will repeat.

So yeah, think a bit on where the actual focus on stage debate should be, and set a realistic goal people. The big change if it can come, will come later.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Whether you enjoy it or not, Smash is a highly political place to be for the competitive scene. Things are NOT always dictated by reason and logic, and this will not be likely changing at any time in the future. People in this thread should realize that, and if they want a shift in attitudes to start in a reasonable space with potential to grow so folks will start actually using proper reasoning to make decisions.

I'll give you a good hint though, no one is gonna ***ing listen to folks to ***ing talk like this all the ***ing time. People gotta present themselves in a professional manner if they want others to listen, and be shown to be a great person people would want to make their decisions.

While I really don't mind seeing debate on tougher stages in here, just remember other folks duck in here to see what kind of discussions are taking place and use hyperbolic statements about them when discussing it in the general public. Those folks wont care at all about the actual truth, they'll go parrot whatever they heard to others and they will repeat.

So yeah, think a bit on where the actual focus on stage debate should be, and set a realistic goal people. The big change if it can come, will come later.

I'm willing to acknowledge that we have to pick our battles carefully with stages, but surely there is no harm in discussing some more esoteric stages? It isn't like we can only have one running discussion at a time. Also, if people don't really care about the actual truth, I fail to see how their parroting random quotations they find in this thread will affect much of anything really.

Still, in the interest of providing a more immediate topic to the Smash 4 metagame, has a concensus been a achieved regarding FD versus certain Omegas for game 1? I generally assume that counterpick rounds allow for the counterpicking player to choose, but I know there's been some debate over FD for game 1 due to the flash and a flashy background + color.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Still, in the interest of providing a more immediate topic to the Smash 4 metagame, has a concensus been a achieved regarding FD versus certain Omegas for game 1? I generally assume that counterpick rounds allow for the counterpicking player to choose, but I know there's been some debate over FD for game 1 due to the flash and a flashy background + color.

We generally go Omega Palutenas Temple due to the proportions being near identical to vanilla Final Destination without the eye strain. In our scene, we only allow Omega stages with walls (Onett, Wii Fit Studio) as counterpicks since it has a special niche for characters who can wall jump that vanilla Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple doesn't provide and don't have grass to affect traction. Striking vanilla FD here is the same as banning it's derivatives, which has worked rather well for us.

But yeah game one, if it comes down to Final Destination, most of us here just default to Omega Palutena's Temple for those who may legitimately have eye problems that can impede their ability to play as well as they could.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Whether you enjoy it or not, Smash is a highly political place to be for the competitive scene. Things are NOT always dictated by reason and logic, and this will not be likely changing at any time in the future. People in this thread should realize that, and if they want a shift in attitudes to start in a reasonable space with potential to grow so folks will start actually using proper reasoning to make decisions.

I'll give you a good hint though, no one is gonna ***ing listen to folks to ***ing talk like this all the ***ing time. People gotta present themselves in a professional manner if they want others to listen, and be shown to be a great person people would want to make their decisions.

While I really don't mind seeing debate on tougher stages in here, just remember other folks duck in here to see what kind of discussions are taking place and use hyperbolic statements about them when discussing it in the general public. Those folks wont care at all about the actual truth, they'll go parrot whatever they heard to others and they will repeat.

So yeah, think a bit on where the actual focus on stage debate should be, and set a realistic goal people. The big change if it can come, will come later.

My last stagelist had 7 stages because I was sick of the ******** and moaning. I don't want or expect people to listen. I want people to give up so I don't feel alone in doing so. Also I can't for the life of me look at this community without feeling like **** but I don't feel like stopping my tournaments. It's like an abusive relationship.

 

[LiteralGrill]

My last stagelist had 7 stages because I was sick of the ******** and moaning. I don't want or expect people to listen. I want people to give up so I don't feel alone in doing so. Also I can't for the life of me look at this community without feeling like **** but I don't feel like stopping my tournaments. It's like an abusive relationship.

I can't entirely blame you, I lost a lot of my feveor and optomism a while ago, though I still try to make strides to see things be a little better. Maybe someday... Till then you'll just keeping coming back to Smash, it has you in its clutches D:

Still, in the interest of providing a more immediate topic to the Smash 4 metagame, has a concensus been a achieved regarding FD versus certain Omegas for game 1? I generally assume that counterpick rounds allow for the counterpicking player to choose, but I know there's been some debate over FD for game 1 due to the flash and a flashy background + color.

Not really. More tournaments are starting to require FD game one lately (since Evo and all) alongside it being simply easier to ban all omega stages. The ultimate ruleset poll was pretty clear that folks don't want FD replaced with an omega though, so I spose I'd recommend any aspiring TOs to not go that route.

 

[cot(θ)]

My last stagelist had 7 stages because I was sick of the ******** and moaning. I don't want or expect people to listen. I want people to give up so I don't feel alone in doing so. Also I can't for the life of me look at this community without feeling like **** but I don't feel like stopping my tournaments. It's like an abusive relationship.

Before I moved recently, I ran a small weekly bracket in our community. A lot of people stopped coming because of the ~25 stage list, but when I dropped it to 13 and referenced the Stage Legality discussion as an authority, a whole bunch of people came back. I don't know what your stagelist was like before, but having one that's small by comparison, and also has some "authority" behind it can work wonders.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Before I moved recently, I ran a small weekly bracket in our community. A lot of people stopped coming because of the ~25 stage list, but when I dropped it to 13 and referenced the Stage Legality discussion as an authority, a whole bunch of people came back. I don't know what your stagelist was like before, but having one that's small by comparison, and also has some "authority" behind it can work wonders.

If I may ask, what was the old stagelist and what did you replace it with?

 

[MajorMajora]

Yeah, I'm pretty curious as to what a 25 stage list would look like.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I too am curious about this 25 stage list. I tried listing them out myself but after 15 or so you end up picking from things like Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Kalos Pokemon League, etc. and I can't see that being a hugely popular list.

 

[cot(θ)]

I too am curious about this 25 stage list. I tried listing them out myself but after 15 or so you end up picking from things like Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Kalos Pokemon League, etc. and I can't see that being a hugely popular list.

Yes, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion and Kalos were all legal. Norfair was fine, as expected - Metaknight OP was the main reason it was banned in Brawl after all. Luigi's is fine. There's a lot of strategy in when to break down the mansion. Kalos was relatively problematic - I don't think anyone really learned how to play there, including myself.

It also included PAC Land, which got picked about as often as you'd expect. The advantage for starting on the right side of the screen wasn't generally noticeable though, since a walkoff-guarding situation at 0% isn't really that dangerous.

I replaced it with the standard 9, plus Skyloft, Wuhu, Mario Circuit and PS2 (all the stages that had been voted legal on Smashboards at the time of the ruleset change.

 

[Krysco]

Hello all! I'm either incredibly late or have been incredibly absent for the past while. Kinda forgot about this thread and I'm surprised I'm not watching it as I recall watching a stage legality thread some time before.

Anyways! To try and be slightly on topic, in regards to the video of mine that @ DUKEL linked (the one about Skyloft) that technically didn't show all of the hazards. I know the building thing around 1:18 can hit players on the main platform as it goes by and my video doesn't show that. When I made that video, I wasn't able to replicate it myself but I've seen it happen at least two times in other videos/gifs.

That being said, that actually supports the claim that Skyloft is inconsistent with its hazards. I'd like to believe the game consistently loads hitboxes whenever they're supposed to appear with an example being Halberd and its hazards. I've never heard of an occasion where the hitbox for the claw, laser or bomb failed to load and someone harmlessly goes through them. Halberd's an easy stage to see the hazards on though while Skyloft's hazards are much more subtle.

Not going to give my opinion on any stages though since I'm a mere casual who has never gone to a tournament so I don't feel my opinion should hold much, if any weight on the legality of stages. What I will do is continue to make labbing videos of cheese grater quality if anyone wants me to or if I feel like it. Heck, as an example, I'll throw this video out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMbwdJkciEE I don't know what the **** the recent patch did to PAC-MAN but he can scar through at least two stages (the other being Mushroom Kingdom U Omega).

 

[divade]

Well that's unfortunate. Hopefully that's never an issue in tourney due to the obvious unfairness and glitch nature.

 

[Ghostbone]

So people can still clip through Halberd in this game.

Should try other characters (MK drill rush and Ike up-b could do it in brawl)

 

[MajorMajora]

Risk reward is too mismatched for it to be a feasible strategy.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My last stagelist had 7 stages because I was sick of the ******** and moaning. I don't want or expect people to listen. I want people to give up so I don't feel alone in doing so. Also I can't for the life of me look at this community without feeling like **** but I don't feel like stopping my tournaments. It's like an abusive relationship.

If you move to the KC area (only halfway across the world), we still have lots of tournaments with 13 legal stages. We just replaced Windy Hill Zone with Dreamland and Battlefield with Miiverse, and it's pretty good. To be clear, we FLSS from the following stages and have four stage bans per side for the counterpick phase:

Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town & City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Dreamland 64
Miiverse

I would like Halberd, but Lux really dislikes Halberd so I didn't win that battle but overall the list's form is about right for this game. It doesn't cause any problems to run this stage list; it's kinda a surreal experience whenever people talk about practical needs to ban some of these stages since our real gameplay on all of them has been consistently pretty legit and when people actually use the stage procedure rules no one has any real reason to john about what stages they end up playing on (the closest was when a crewmate of mine forgot to ban PS2 against me and threw it away on something like Skyloft, but he acknowledged quickly once the match started that he just made an error on the stage select screen which was mostly his fault).

Related, Dreamland 64 is a really good addition to the game. It's meaningfully different from BF, interesting in a few ways, and overall quite fair. To me, it completely solves the problem of "which stage is number 13?" for 13 legal stages. Miiverse is also hilarious; everyone here loves the stage, and I honestly can't believe Nintendo allowed this to be in the game (more games than not have at least one very inappropriate background picture). I think we have it legal over BF just because it's too funny while they're otherwise pretty much the same stage...