Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[ParanoidDrone]

Can APEX and EVO renew those contracts with different terms for next year?

Probably. Mr. Wizard's under an NDA and can't say much directly but I see no reason they'd sign a contract for anything other than a single EVO at a time. (Especially considering they can't predict if Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 in the first place.)

The trick will be reaching out and convincing the staff of Apex, EVO, etc. to run Skyloft and Wuhu in the first place. EVO copied Apex's ruleset to start and had signed the contract (thus locking in their stage list) before we knew about it at all.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Probably. Mr. Wizard's under an NDA and can't say much directly but I see no reason they'd sign a contract for anything other than a single EVO at a time. (Especially considering they can't predict if Smash 4 will be at EVO 2016 in the first place.)

The trick will be reaching out and convincing the staff of Apex, EVO, etc. to run Skyloft and Wuhu in the first place. EVO copied Apex's ruleset to start and had signed the contract (thus locking in their stage list) before we knew about it at all.

what we should do, then, is work out what other stages we want to bug the APEX crew about for next year. Do we have a consensus on Mario Circuit 8 and PS2? And KJ64 for singles?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

what we should do, then, is work out what other stages we want to bug the APEX crew about for next year. Do we have a consensus on Mario Circuit 8 and PS2? And KJ64 for singles?

We don't have a consensus on Battlefield of all stages. (Okay, that's a bit of hyperbole because the vast majority of people don't have a problem with Battlefield, but I've seen suggestions that we ban it in favor of Miiverse due to...weird ledges? IDK, I never noticed anything odd about them.)

As far as a list of "stages that are both suitable for competition and actually have a decent shot of being accepted" goes, this is the best I can come up with:

Battlefield/Miiverse*
Final Destination/Omegas**
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle
Dream Land
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2

*Miiverse is lumped together with Battlefield for the purposes of striking, banning, and DSR.
**Omega stages are lumped together with Final Destination for the purposes of striking, banning, and DSR.

There are other stages I'd love to see used but I know for a fact I'm in the minority on that front so I won't bother discussing them. The 15 there that I listed I think stand the best chance of forming a stable list we can work with.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

We don't have a consensus on Battlefield of all stages. (Okay, that's a bit of hyperbole because the vast majority of people don't have a problem with Battlefield, but I've seen suggestions that we ban it in favor of Miiverse due to...weird ledges? IDK, I never noticed anything odd about them.)

As far as a list of "stages that are both suitable for competition and actually have a decent shot of being accepted" goes, this is the best I can come up with:

Battlefield/Miiverse*
Final Destination/Omegas**
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle
Dream Land
Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2

*Miiverse is lumped together with Battlefield for the purposes of striking, banning, and DSR.
**Omega stages are lumped together with Final Destination for the purposes of striking, banning, and DSR.

There are other stages I'd love to see used but I know for a fact I'm in the minority on that front so I won't bother discussing them. The 15 there that I listed I think stand the best chance of forming a stable list we can work with.

I'm actually on the "Ban Battlefield" side for simplicity's sake. Now, I don't mind the stage THAT much, and I'll argue for a stage like Skyloft before I argue against this stage. My argument comes down to: no sense in having two identical stages, and given options, I'll take the one where you can't do this:

Incidentally, my "random stage selection" for when I play friendlies are those exact stages that you have, minus BF but Miiverse makes up for it. But now I'm curious, what other stages would you like to see used? I actually very rarely hear about stages outside those 15, unless there's one I'm forgetting about.

 

[DUKEL]

Reading through this thread has really made me curious about how some of you determine legal stages.

Here is what I see:
Halberd - should be banned, due to 'unpredictable' stage hazards that are apparently unavoidable, even though the stage quite literally tells you when it's about to make one appear, and the blast zones give characters an advantage (even though most characters can kill quite well vertically and those that can't are capable of banning halberd because it's bad for their MU). It was legal in Brawl has survived its whole competitive scene so what has it done to make you think it should be banned?

Skyloft: should be legal because???? Seriously I don't understand the arguments for the stage. The stage hazards for Skyloft actually mess with the gameplay. Here's what an average match on Skyloft looks like, and it didn't even include every hazard that you can come across. The likelyhood of no one getting hit by an unexpected stage hazard is actually very high, and if you go to Skyloft, you're probably expecting your opponent to 1) get meteored by the stage when knocked into the corner, 2) get spiked by the stage when knocked horizontally (which can save you), 3) bounce off a one of the many walls that the stage offers, 4) maybe get killed by a waterfall that is just barely below the ledge on one transformation, nullifying a second jump and an up-b 5) get damaged by the floor on when landing on the stage mid-transformation. Sure, it has some interesting transformations, but those are all nullified by the fact that the stage can kill (or save) you if you're conveniently knocked off stage at a random moment.

Wuhu Island: should be legal because we banned it too early. Wuhu is, I'll grant you, an interesting stage. I don't really see why it should be banned, but I also don't see why it should be legal. Several of the transformations are very quirky in nature though (which doesn't mean it's inherently banned). The Volcano transformation, for instance, is an almost required campout if you're both on opposite sides, as many characters literally cannot approach without having to face a ledge guarding situation. The boat as well has its faults, the water is similar to Jungle Japes', where if you fall below the platform on the right side by even a little, you're probably dead. This transformation also removes most semblances of edge guarding, as most people with any aerial endlag will decide not to go offstage. I personally don't have a preference for this stage, though. So if it's banned, it's banned. If it's legal, it's legal. Even though it has its faults I don't see any huge issues with it.

Mario Circuit: Should be legal because we want more stages? I guess? See my reasons for not liking Skyloft. Getting knocked offstage at an inconvenient time (more times than Skyloft, mind you) and hitting part of the stage does a significant amount of damage and can kill you. The fact that you can actually get trapped in the actual stage should be more than enough of a reason to ban it.

Pokemon Stadium 2: Shouldn't be legal because some players can't adapt. Honestly, I like PS2. The stage doesn't kill you, there are no camp-forcing transformations, and the players are forced to fight in neat, different situations. Every character gets a sliding upsmash on the ice transformation, Every character has to rely on their aerial mobility during the wind portion, and edge guarding/stage control is more prominent in the metal transformation. In other words, some of the most exciting things about Smash 4, tripled. I don't understand the hate for PS2 from people that aren't scrubs. If you can't adapt to different situations, why are you playing competitive Smash? At the very least, I think this stage should be tested by TOs at a few tournaments, just to see if it makes matches more hype or not.

Anyway, those are my two cents. I do want to see strong arguments for the aforementioned stages that don't make any sense to me, though. Why do you think Skyloft should be legal? Why do you think Circuit should be legal?

Heck, if you present a solid argument for Great Cave Offensive I might even consider playing it competitively.

Spoiler

 

[MrGame&Rock]

snip

My experience with hazards actually isn't nearly as much for skyloft as said average match. The biggest thing I encountered was I kept getting edgeguarded as mega man and was saved by a transition. Likewise, my punish for an opposing Jigglypuff rest was blocked by a transition. But thats par for the course with traveling stages. Aside from that, we've gotten knocked around by buildings once or twice, but the waterfalls never presented a problem. Skyloft, in my view, should be legal because it has a number of great transformations that create interesting states of play, and the hazards can be worked around in my experience. I have a soft spot for traveling stages, because they are inherently neutral. The platform layout is constantly changing, so its harder for one character in a matchup to gain a significant advantage. In my view, the odd hazard is a small price to pay for that enormous benefit. If the building bits were patched out, Id advocate for this stage as a starter.

I like Mario Circuit for the same reason. Traveling stages that don't suck (see: Port Town) are inherently good because of matchup neutrality, or at least no consistent advantage in a matchup. Well, in the case of MC8, that's not strictly true. Mario Circuit is slightly more flawed bc glitch but its also more interesting from a design perspective: at a given point, any one boundary could be blocked off and we have to adapt to that. Actually, in an environment where most stages favor vertical killers, MC8 is a rare stage that benefits horizontal killers instead. The ceiling could be blocked, as could either horizontal boundary, but never both horizontal boundaries at the same time. So having this stage around levels the playing field somewhat for characters that hate BF and T&C and Halberd because vertical killing.

 

[Ghostbone]

Halberd - should be banned, due to 'unpredictable' stage hazards that are apparently unavoidable, even though the stage quite literally tells you when it's about to make one appear, and the blast zones give characters an advantage (even though most characters can kill quite well vertically and those that can't are capable of banning halberd because it's bad for their MU). It was legal in Brawl has survived its whole competitive scene so what has it done to make you think it should be banned?

1. Halberd should have been banned in brawl, and just because a stage is legal in a previous game doesn't mean it should be legal now. The stages are all different sizes and mechanics are changed between games. Just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's right.
2. Stage hazards aren't unpredictable, that doesn't mean they're fair. (and the claw is unpredictable because there isn't an indication of who it will attack).
3. The top blastzone isn't just a normal killing advantage, combos that wouldn't kill on any other stage now kill really early on halberd because the top blastzone is only slightly higher than ZSS's full + double jump height, lol.

Pokemon Stadium 2: Shouldn't be legal because some players can't adapt. Honestly, I like PS2. The stage doesn't kill you, there are no camp-forcing transformations, and the players are forced to fight in neat, different situations. Every character gets a sliding upsmash on the ice transformation, Every character has to rely on their aerial mobility during the wind portion, and edge guarding/stage control is more prominent in the metal transformation. In other words, some of the most exciting things about Smash 4, tripled. I don't understand the hate for PS2 from people that aren't scrubs. If you can't adapt to different situations, why are you playing competitive Smash? At the very least, I think this stage should be tested by TOs at a few tournaments, just to see if it makes matches more hype or not.

"there are no camp-forcing transformations"
have you ever actually played on the stage lmao, wind, electric and ground are all super campy.
"Every character has to rely on their aerial mobility during the wind portion"
Yea no, nobody wants to jump because being in the air is such a terrible position to be in. Also wind has janky 0-death combos because of the low gravity.

 

[DUKEL]

1. Halberd should have been banned in brawl, and just because a stage is legal in a previous game doesn't mean it should be legal now. The stages are all different sizes and mechanics are changed between games. Just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's right.
2. Stage hazards aren't unpredictable, that doesn't mean they're fair. (and the claw is unpredictable because there isn't an indication of who it will attack).
3. The top blastzone isn't just a normal killing advantage, combos that wouldn't kill on any other stage now kill really early on halberd because the top blastzone is only slightly higher than ZSS's full + double jump height, lol.

1. You're arguing against tradition, but arguing for it with your very limited stagelist. Which is it you want? Do you want Smash 4 to break free from the traditions of melee or would you rather limit them to stages that never move and don't require adaptation?
2. The claw is unpredictable? What about airdodging or shielding for all of a split second makes it unpredictable? It really does sound like you need to get good and stop complaining. While you're complaining about Halberd's stage hazards, need I remind you that you said this?

I just hate halberd.
Skyloft and Wuhu Island deserve to be legal loooong before Halberd.

Skyloft deserves to be legal before Halberd? Here let's replace the predictable and expected stage hazards that Halberd has and replace them with a stage that can spike you to your doom if you're hit or thrown offstage at an inconvenient time.
3. Just don't face characters that kill off the top at Halberd - just like you don't face Melee Marth at FoD or Yoshi's. I know you're going to give me unnecessary grief for this, but that's what bans are for.

"there are no camp-forcing transformations"
have you ever actually played on the stage lmao, wind, electric and ground are all super campy.
"Every character has to rely on their aerial mobility during the wind portion"
Yea no, nobody wants to jump because being in the air is such a terrible position to be in. Also wind has janky 0-death combos because of the low gravity.

I screwed up and forgot about the mountain in the ground transformation. If you're caught on opposite sides of it, camping can be had.

Electric isn't campy. If you're playing campy on electric, you're exactly where you shouldn't be, because your opponent is probably offstage and you should be edge guarding them. Camping on electric is counter-intuitive and unnecessary, since you could be gimping instead of camping.

Wind can be campy I guess. But only with a character with a ton of jumps could, and even then they'd be coming back down onto the stage without any jumps and/or in special fall, which is actually, once again, counter-intuitive to camping.

snip

So you name every reason that those stages should be banned (saved by the transformation a multitude of times, unable to punish due to the transformative nature of the stage, hit by walls, etc.), and you proceed to try to explain why those things are good, and require adaptation. How about a little analogy here. Say you're playing a tournament or a friendly, or whatever you're playing, wherever you're playing it, and you're behind by a little. You have a little over 100% damage and you get hit by an fsmash on the opposite side of the stage. We livin' tho right? Wrong. You just got stage spiked by one of Skyloft's or MC's many background hazards and, if you're lucky, you either just bounced off the stage (which would probablly still kill you off the top), or you're now eating the dust at the bottom blast zone. But that comes with the territory of moving stages, I guess. You win some, you lose some, right? Wrong. You'll be super salty, your opponent won't feel like he earned the kill, unless he convinces himself he knew that that transformation was happening (he didn't), and no one walks away happy.

At least, with Halberd, the stage hazards are known so that one player can outplay the other and force them into a immensely telegraphed projectile. Plus, the laser can be quickly SDI'd out of and only deal a little damage. So even when one person outplays the other, they can easily get out of that hazard. Now people could be hit on halberd and randomly take on damage when there was no evidence of the stage attacking before hand? I'd be all over halberd being banned. But it's not. Halberd's projectiles present themselves obviously. Skyloft and MC don't.

 

[Routa]

If you ask me (I know you didn't, but I will still answer), Halberd is kinda 50/50. I mean the hazards aren't such a big problem, but when it comes to blastzones... Too small if you ask me.

PS2 is kinda... Well for now I think it should stay banned. Needs more testing in my opinion.

Also this might be unpopular opinion, but I think BF, Miiverse and Dreamland64 should be treated like FD/Omegas. Like BF/Alpha or something. I think one WJ Omega deserves own spot in stagelist if and only if Miiverse gets its own spot in stagelist. But that is my opinion.

 

[Pazx]

I'm actually on the "Ban Battlefield" side for simplicity's sake. Now, I don't mind the stage THAT much, and I'll argue for a stage like Skyloft before I argue against this stage. My argument comes down to: no sense in having two identical stages, and given options, I'll take the one where you can't do this:

Incidentally, my "random stage selection" for when I play friendlies are those exact stages that you have, minus BF but Miiverse makes up for it. But now I'm curious, what other stages would you like to see used? I actually very rarely hear about stages outside those 15, unless there's one I'm forgetting about.

I'd imagine the glitch in the gif can be performed on stages other than BF. BF has issues with the ledges but this is a very poor example.

 

[dav3yb]

Also this might be unpopular opinion, but I think BF, Miiverse and Dreamland64 should be treated like FD/Omegas. Like BF/Alpha or something. I think one WJ Omega deserves own spot in stagelist if and only if Miiverse gets its own spot in stagelist. But that is my opinion.

I'm start to agree with this a bit. At least for BF and miiverse. The added wind of dream land might warrant it having its own spot, but I'm not too sure atm. Also, does miiverse work of the console is NOT connected to the Internet? I would expect most wit's at tournaments would not be connected.

 

[Routa]

I'm start to agree with this a bit. At least for BF and miiverse. The added wind of dream land might warrant it having its own spot, but I'm not too sure atm. Also, does miiverse work of the console is NOT connected to the Internet? I would expect most wit's at tournaments would not be connected.

Yeah Dreamland could stay as own stage, but BF and Miiverse should be treated like FD and Omegas.

"When playing locally, this stage can be played even with the Wii U not connected to the internet; doing so will simply cause no messages to appear."

Looks like you can use it without internet connection.

 

[Ulevo]

As far as Kongo Jungle goes, how do people feel about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2HOoOnAbk

 

[T4ylor]

Does anyone else see Lylat Cruise being redundant on a stage list with Dream Land 64 legal? I think Dream Land's platform layout has the same effect where it can be a stage that your character likes if they want platforms but can't have it be Battlefield, because those are too close and can mess with your landing options. Lylat still has the tilting effect that messes with projectiles and some recoveries, though, but do we really need another 3 platform layout? Besides, I know of no one that prefers this stage over Dream Land.

@ Ulevo I still like the stage, Kongo has a different/good layout and its huge ceiling is a nice contrast to what Halberd and Delfino offer. When it comes to that kind of stalling, I'd be comfortable just tossing it up to match up. The amount of characters that can do that can be counted on one hand. And it cannot happen to every character. Plus those characters capable of stalling there in the first place are not top tier. I don't think we'd be making certain characters over the top, but be giving the characters that can pull out the cheese like that a nice niche to use in competitive play, however lame said niche is in practice.

 

[cot(θ)]

As far as Kongo Jungle goes, how do people feel about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2HOoOnAbk

First of all, that's Melee. Second of all, one horrendous matchup isn't a good ban reason anyway, IMO. It's a far cry from Temple, where circle camping is viable against anyone who isn't faster than you.

 

[Pazx]

Does anyone else see Lylat Cruise being redundant on a stage list with Dream Land 64 legal? I think Dream Land's platform layout has the same effect where it can be a stage that your character likes if they want platforms but can't have it be Battlefield, because those are too close and can mess with your landing options. Lylat still has the tilting effect that messes with projectiles and some recoveries, though, but do we really need another 3 platform layout? Besides, I know of no one that prefers this stage over Dream Land.

@ Ulevo I still like the stage, Kongo has a different/good layout and its huge ceiling is a nice contrast to what Halberd and Delfino offer. When it comes to that kind of stalling, I'd be comfortable just tossing it up to match up. The amount of characters that can do that can be counted on one hand. And it cannot happen to every character. Plus those characters capable of stalling there in the first place are not top tier. I don't think we'd be making certain characters over the top, but be giving the characters that can pull out the cheese like that a nice niche to use in competitive play, however lame said niche is in practice.

Lylat and Dreamland are very different. Lylat has small, low platforms on a small stage as well as the tilting mechanism and the absence of a "top platform", whilst DL64 has larger, higher platforms on a larger stage with smaller blast zones. I notice these differences most frequently when juggling opponents or attempting to trap their landings and they have a large effect on the game. Lylat and DL are both more similar to Battlefield than each other, thus making Battlefield the stage with the highest potential to be redundant out of the three of them (Spoiler: none of the stages are redundant, all are good and competitively viable).

 

[Infinite901]

Does anyone else see Lylat Cruise being redundant on a stage list with Dream Land 64 legal? I think Dream Land's platform layout has the same effect where it can be a stage that your character likes if they want platforms but can't have it be Battlefield, because those are too close and can mess with your landing options. Lylat still has the tilting effect that messes with projectiles and some recoveries, though, but do we really need another 3 platform layout? Besides, I know of no one that prefers this stage over Dream Land.

Lylat is a good counter against projectile users and for horizontal killers. Dreamland is a good counter for vertical killers. They're both good counters against bad recoveries. Lylat is much better for characters that use platforms for spacing (eg. Shulk, Ike, Bowser) while Dreamland is better for those who use platforms to extend strings and combos (eg. ZSS, Marth, and yes, Sheik)

 

[Illuminose]

Problems with Kongo Jungle 64 are pretty inherent, enabling barrel camping (yes this is a thing) and allowing characters with superior platform mobility to camp really easily is not that matchup specific and are pretty damning features for any stage to have.

Also, about the Halberd conversation. The Halberd hazards are actually problematic in that, despite the fact they are predictable (outside the claw), they disproportionately affect gameplay and can create some pretty stupid low risk/high reward situations. Halberd's laser can 'edgeguard' players and deal severe damage regardless. Maybe you should 'get good' and avoid those situations but it's still really, really disruptive.

 

[Infinite901]

Problems with Kongo Jungle 64 are pretty inherent, enabling barrel camping (yes this is a thing) and allowing characters with superior platform mobility to camp really easily is not that matchup specific and are pretty damning features for any stage to have.

The hell, it's 100% matchup specific. Pretty much only Peach, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Villager and maaayybe Pit Bros and Meta Knight can camp out Kongo, and it's only really effective against Mac, Doc, DK, Bowser, and Ganon and maybe Falcon and Ryu. So in those MUs, Kongo is an auto-ban, just like how Smashville is an auto-ban in, say, Pikachu vs Ike. Or maybe, Ness vs Robin. It's just how stagelists work.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Okay, after playing some online matches with my buddies on Mario Circuit, we've all reached the same conclusion: none of us want to play a match there again.

It's that blocked ceiling. I didnt realize how many diagonal attacks force people to bounce off that ceiling and off the ground a thousand times. We havent even encountered the glitch, but that one part of the stage just turned matches into chaos. Also there's a transformation in which the shy guys are driving across the middle of the stage and jumping puts you in harms way. Thats just dumb.

To sum up, Wuhu > Most legal stages and skyloft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mario Circuit. I wanted to like it, but alas.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dreamland is a good counter for vertical killers.

Not anymore. Dream Land has a lower ceiling than Battlefield now.

 

[Ulevo]

First of all, that's Melee. Second of all, one horrendous matchup isn't a good ban reason anyway, IMO. It's a far cry from Temple, where circle camping is viable against anyone who isn't faster than you.

It does not matter if its Melee. The same elements that allowed that to happen are potentially present in Smash IV.

It is worth noting that I just did the same thing to my friend in casuals with Meta Knight against Captain Falcon, who is not exactly immobile. I think the concerns are warranted.

 

[Big O]

I'm actually on the "Ban Battlefield" side for simplicity's sake. Now, I don't mind the stage THAT much, and I'll argue for a stage like Skyloft before I argue against this stage. My argument comes down to: no sense in having two identical stages, and given options, I'll take the one where you can't do this:

Incidentally, my "random stage selection" for when I play friendlies are those exact stages that you have, minus BF but Miiverse makes up for it. But now I'm curious, what other stages would you like to see used? I actually very rarely hear about stages outside those 15, unless there's one I'm forgetting about.

This has nothing to do with BF ledges and everything to do with max rage + Fox charging a smash attack + very high base kb in Roy's Up B (like Mii Brawler's one inch punch).

 

[Infinite901]

Not anymore. Dream Land has a lower ceiling than Battlefield now.

I mean a pick FOR vertical killers.

It does not matter if its Melee. The same elements that allowed that to happen are potentially present in Smash IV.

It is worth noting that I just did the same thing to my friend in casuals with Meta Knight against Captain Falcon, who is not exactly immobile. I think the concerns are warranted.

So... yeah, it's MU specific.

 

[Ulevo]

I mean a pick FOR vertical killers.

So... yeah, it's MU specific.

You are missing the point. Only an idiot would cite my anecdotal evidence as proof that this is a match up problem rather than a stage problem. I am using my experiences to say there may be legitimate concern.

I do not believe it to be a match up problem, but a problem with a pool of characters that can abuse the problems the stage presents. Namely Wario, Meta Knight, Peach, Villager, Jigglypuff, et cetera. If these characters can abuse this stage in certain match ups, that is one matter. It is another matter if they can replicate this success against a large majority of the cast by simply obtaining a lead.

I am not bringing this up to incur cynical, ignorant skepticism. I encourage people to try it out in friendlies and see how it goes. I would upload the matches, but I am unable to.

Okay, after playing some online matches with my buddies on Mario Circuit, we've all reached the same conclusion: none of us want to play a match there again.

It's that blocked ceiling. I didnt realize how many diagonal attacks force people to bounce off that ceiling and off the ground a thousand times. We havent even encountered the glitch, but that one part of the stage just turned matches into chaos. Also there's a transformation in which the shy guys are driving across the middle of the stage and jumping puts you in harms way. Thats just dumb.

To sum up, Wuhu > Most legal stages and skyloft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mario Circuit. I wanted to like it, but alas.

So in other words you and your cohorts cannot tech properly.

 

[dav3yb]

I have to say... If Mario Circuit is somehow good enough for tournament play, with its drive-by's and cave of life transformations, then why not Luigi's mansion?

I've played a decent bit on Skyloft and have never found any issue with it. Maybe once being saved by a rock on the side during a flyby, but nothing major that seem to warrant removing it.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I have to say... If Mario Circuit is somehow good enough for tournament play, with its drive-by's and cave of life transformations, then why not Luigi's mansion?

I've played a decent bit on Skyloft and have never found any issue with it. Maybe once being saved by a rock on the side during a flyby, but nothing major that seem to warrant removing it.

Luigi's mansion is the epitome of the phrase "We Living"

Caves of life for days, and while the destructible stage portions add strategy, the caves of life presented when the house is standing are just too strong

 

[dav3yb]

Luigi's mansion is the epitome of the phrase "We Living"

Caves of life for days, and while the destructible stage portions add strategy, the caves of life presented when the house is standing are just too strong

I just don't get the arguments for MC. Sure it transforms, but at least one of them nearly turns the stage into a box. AND it has the races coming by at times to interfere. I don't feel like a stage like skyloft is nearly as intrusive, as it doesn't really have a transformation that could greatly extend your life, nor does it have random hazards that could come by and kill you easily.

I personally would probably never consider Mario Circuit unless i saw some good match play on it.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I just don't get the arguments for MC. Sure it transforms, but at least one of them nearly turns the stage into a box. AND it has the races coming by at times to interfere. I don't feel like a stage like skyloft is nearly as intrusive, as it doesn't really have a transformation that could greatly extend your life, nor does it have random hazards that could come by and kill you easily.

I personally would probably never consider Mario Circuit unless i saw some good match play on it.

I played wild, crazy, chaotic matches on MC8 with multiple players, and despite all that chaos, I've only ever been hit once by a cart, and that was only because I didn't know there was a ramp on the upside down stop. Aside from that early lack of knowledge, the cars are rarely, if ever truly intrusive

Also, I see the transforming of the walls and blast zones to be interesting, forcing players to adapt to new conditions, giving, taking, and trading stage control. Plus, a great stage for horizontal killers, as the upper blast zone block area gives them a great time to go wild on an opponent with mostly vertical kills

 

[dav3yb]

I played wild, crazy, chaotic matches on MC8 with multiple players, and despite all that chaos, I've only ever been hit once by a cart, and that was only because I didn't know there was a ramp on the upside down stop. Aside from that early lack of knowledge, the cars are rarely, if ever truly intrusive

Also, I see the transforming of the walls and blast zones to be interesting, forcing players to adapt to new conditions, giving, taking, and trading stage control. Plus, a great stage for horizontal killers, as the upper blast zone block area gives them a great time to go wild on an opponent with mostly vertical kills

fair enough. I might have to do some testing between MC and Halberd to see for myself which hazards are more obtrusive. But what exactly is this glitch people are talking about on the stage?

 

[divade]

Does Skyloft or Wuhu have many "hazards" above the base floor during transitions? I know MC8 and Pilot wings do.
I feel if you don't know the stage, but will be safe above the base floor, it should still be legal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does Skyloft or Wuhu have many "hazards" above the base floor during transitions? I know MC8 and Pilot wings do.
I feel if you don't know the stage, but will be safe above the base floor, it should still be legal.

Slyloft has no hazards other than the stage itself as it goes around, and a single transformation has some waterfalls that push you downward if you fall down into them.

Wuhu Island has three hazards. When the stage flies over to the arena, it skims the water which acts like a damaging floor. 5% damage, won't kill even at 300%. The boat will do 100% and meteor smash you for an instant kill if it runs over you. And when you're on the cliff, a single balloon floats up offstage that explodes for 10% on contact. It can kill, but the range varies depending on the point of impact.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So in other words you and your cohorts cannot tech properly.

That might be a part of it, but the ceiling wall was low enough to be obtrusive to gameplay even if we were tech-masters because of the prevalence of diagonal hitboxes. Both moves that should have been nothing and that should have been kills were halted by that transformation, and overall it just wasn't fun for anybody. And we have absolutely no problem on Skyloft or Wuhu. So teching doesn't account for the whole problem.
Sidenote: I object to the word "cohorts" to describe my friends.

 

[Ulevo]

That might be a part of it, but the ceiling wall was low enough to be obtrusive to gameplay even if we were tech-masters because of the prevalence of diagonal hitboxes. Both moves that should have been nothing and that should have been kills were halted by that transformation, and overall it just wasn't fun for anybody. And we have absolutely no problem on Skyloft or Wuhu. So teching doesn't account for the whole problem.
Sidenote: I object to the word "cohorts" to describe my friends.

Well I suggest you learn the definition of cohort if you want to avoid being incorrectly offended.

Either way, the transformation temporarily blocks off the top ceiling for 16-18 seconds if it stops there. There will be games where it does not even stop at that transition. Even if it does, it is not obstructive. It is a static element that is readily visible and easily accounted for. Playing as Meta Knight on that stage, a character that thrives on vertical kills, I am able to adapt to that transition very easily for the minimal time it is in play.

If the transition was always there, or if the ceiling randomly prevented kills, then I could see a problem. But this static element is no different than having say the temporary water transformations on Delfino. I do not really see how this relates to experiences on Skyloft or Wuhu either.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

What about the Billboard on MK8 that will hit you without warning while the stage moves along the track? I consider that and the other sudden hitboxes (ie not karts) a very big detraction from this stage's competitive value.

 

[Ulevo]

What about the Billboard on MK8 that will hit you without warning while the stage moves along the track? I consider that and the other sudden hitboxes (ie not karts) a very big detraction from this stage's competitive value.

Are you referring to the billboard at the Start Line transformation? And none of these track hitboxes are random or without warning. You know where they are going to appear based on where you are along the track. To add to this, they are not even readily in the way of the players.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Are you referring to the billboard at the Start Line transformation? And none of these track hitboxes are random or without warning. You know where they are going to appear based on where you are along the track. To add to this, they are not even readily in the way of the players.

You seriously expect players to memorize the track itself in order to actively predict when the Billboard hits? Like, during a real match? When there's plenty of warning for karts to appear, there's no excuse for absolutely no visual indicator on the billboard. The same reasoning as to why the Karts are an acceptable hazard dictates that the billboard is an unacceptable one.

 

[Ulevo]

You seriously expect players to memorize the track itself in order to actively predict when the Billboard hits? Like, during a real match? When there's plenty of warning for karts to appear, there's no excuse for absolutely no visual indicator on the billboard. The same reasoning as to why the Karts are an acceptable hazard dictates that the billboard is an unacceptable one.

You are given warning by the visuals in the background. The track does not haphazardly deviate from its circuit around the track, it stops in different locations. As long as you know where you are on the track, which is easy, this is a non-issue. This is not hard to memorize at all.

 

[DUKEL]

Either way, the transformation temporarily blocks off the top ceiling for 16-18 seconds if it stops there. There will be games where it does not even stop at that transition. Even if it does, it is not obstructive.

How is a ceiling that prevents vertical kills for 16-18 seconds not obstructive? That's a pretty significant amount of time. Plus, If it stops there? MC's transformations are random? So anticipation of the next transformation is impossible. So in fact, every track hitbox is in fact random, unlike what you claim.

But, let's talk about the transformations of MC for a minute. Most of the transformations have a stage hazard that deals 10% each time, and can potentially juggle you on several transformations. Please find for me another transforming stage with a stage hazard at every transformation. There is either a wall or a ceiling on most transformations, severely limiting kill potential and making players potentially live longer (people living too long is already a popular issue with Smash 4 - let's not make it worse). Every single platform on the stage is more than a fullhop away from the majority of the cast, meaning people will have to waste their double jump just to get on the platform - also meaning that the high platform is also a great place for camping for the characters who can fullhop onto it.

But this static element is no different than having say the temporary water transformations on Delfino.

As you might be aware, water is significantly different than a wall. If you're seriously comparing Delfino's water to MC's walls, I know now that no matter the evidence shown to you, you'll always argue for MC.

 

[Ulevo]

How is a ceiling that prevents vertical kills for 16-18 seconds not obstructive? That's a pretty significant amount of time. Plus, If it stops there? MC's transformations are random? So anticipation of the next transformation is impossible. So in fact, every track hitbox is in fact random, unlike what you claim.

What I meant to say was that it is not intrusive, not obstructive. Dealing with a static element like this is not the same as dealing with a stage hazard that actively targets you and poses a serious immediate threat, for instance.

This aside, Mario Circuits transformation stops are not entirely random, but I will disregard that. Assuming they were random, the time it takes to transition from transformation to transformation is long enough that you are given ample amount of time to know what it is you need to do or how to position yourself, much in the way you do on Delfino Plaza. Also, the stops are random, not the circuit, and the track hazards are only hazards as the circuit moves. Theoretically, if the track moved all the time without stopping you would know exactly when they were down to the precise second.

The point is that you will know within a match when the track hazard is coming long before it becomes an active hazard.

But, let's talk about the transformations of MC for a minute. Most of the transformations have a stage hazard that deals 10% each time, and can potentially juggle you on several transformations. Please find for me another transforming stage with a stage hazard at every transformation. There is either a wall or a ceiling on most transformations, severely limiting kill potential and making players potentially live longer (people living too long is already a popular issue with Smash 4 - let's not make it worse). Every single platform on the stage is more than a fullhop away from the majority of the cast, meaning people will have to waste their double jump just to get on the platform - also meaning that the high platform is also a great place for camping for the characters who can fullhop onto it.

As you might be aware, water is significantly different than a wall. If you're seriously comparing Delfino's water to MC's walls, I know now that no matter the evidence shown to you, you'll always argue for MC.

The fact that the Shy Guys can appear on every transformation is irrelevant because that possibility does not play out in practice. They do not appear at every transformation successfully. Most of the time they are infrequent. They all come with ample warning time before they are even visible, and visual warning time as you can see them driving on the track. Once they are within range to hit a player, they are easy to avoid and are not dangerous.

Most transformations have walls? There are 9 transformations, of which 3 of them have a single blast zone area blocked off; one on the left, one on the right, one on the ceiling. Your hyperboles do not make your argument compelling nor logical.