Stage Discussion?

[Dogysamich]

First off, we need a stage discussion thread. And no im not talkin about the simple "What stages are best for Doc" kinda thread, cause that's got my **** wrecked so bad.

____

Basically, I'm kinda curious as to, in general, what stages work against specific characters and which ones dont.

Example,

I just to a tourney saturday, and went against a CapFal (GAWes, for anybody who keeps records).

And well, I know(knew) nothing about CapFal, so I just went ahead and banned Yoshi's Story, because I hate the stage.

First match, I got crushed. 2 Stocked, I think, i dunno.

So 2nd match im like "Ok, well I lost on Yoshi's Story, guess I gotta go with FD, my bread'n'butter".

Too bad the bread was moldy and stale, because I got rocked harder than I thought was physically possible.

I got combo'd to all ends of the earth and back.

___

Now granted, Im not an outstanding player or anything, I figured "Ok, something tells me that picking FD was just dumb."

So I was talking to a few other people who also play against CapFals, and I told them my situation. They all had the same general response.

"Who TAKES CapFal to FD? That's suicide."

So i was like "..... well crap, I just didnt know."

Furthermore, some of them went on to tell me they prefer to use small stages against CapFal, since he needs room to work (I never knew this either)

____

Sooooo the point of this thread is basically just to talk about what stages work against what characters for Doc.

Im pretty sure we can all agree what stages work best for Doc, overall, but I cant find a thread that talks about what's good against who, and the "Do's and Donts" of counter picking.

So, does anybody have any ideas?

 

[$ick]

Didn't read the whole post but just the part about Cpt. Falcon. You did the exact opposite you should do against a falcon with any character imo. Yoshi story makes falcon confined, and fd does the opposite. A character with his speed with jumps and such is good with open space.

 

[SpruceTengu]

I'd have to agree with $ick, though one could argue that Doc does well when he has room to bull effectively. My only qualm is just that you'd NEED the pills to interrupt falcon's movements all the time, and if you missed you'd probably be in some trouble. While falcon does do really well when he has some platforms to climb in setting people up for a knee, I think really good falcon players can ignore that necessity and rock you pretty hard on final destination.
I personally find i do best as doc on great bay, though i think that one's usually banned for tournies. I'd say most of the standard ones with 2 levels of smaller platforms above a main platform seem to work well; especially if you've got good pill-aim and throws. The best thing of course is to know the place well and to understand how to get good pill trajectory, depending on he angle of the surfaces around you. In my experience, a character like doc has to move a bit too, but its more about the timing with him than it is with Falcon, so its definitely a good idea to get a falcon into short-range combat, where some of your faster tilts can be exploited.
Against rangewhores (particularly link and samus, and maybe a laser-spamming fox, etc.) you might wanna give them space to use their weapons; especially if you're talented enough with the cape to use those weapons back at them. Also, you can get tricky an pretend you're in a headlong charge and reverse wavedash into a cape, or the like...

Those are my thoughts for now. : )

 

[Dogysamich]

Didn't read the whole post but just the part about Cpt. Falcon. You did the exact opposite you should do against a falcon with any character imo. Yoshi story makes falcon confined, and fd does the opposite. A character with his speed with jumps and such is good with open space.

If i didnt stress this enough in my post, I definitely found out the hard way that you dont give CapFal big stages, lol. That **** was just brutal. :/

I've just usually ban Yoshi's Story in general, cause I never really thought I'd gain anything from it, and it seems to hurt me more often than help me.

 

[Kashakunaki]

I think this thread is an excellent idea, Dogysamich. I have the same problems and tend to resort to FD as well. I have a video of me getting owned by Captain Falcon on Final Destination... not fun.

Anyways, that's beside the point. I'm on my way out so here is my small contribution for the time being: I think Yoshi's Story is a good counter pick for Jigglypuff. It has a low cieling so you can KO her easily at low percents. Also, the Fair is Doc's really only good vertical KO move, and Yoshi's story has small walls, so it should be relatively easy to Bair a Jigglypuff to death. On top of that, assuming I'm not mistaken, room for the WoP is perferable for Jigglypuff and she has a weak under aerial game which should be taken advantage of because of platforms.

As for a banned stage, I think it is the best idea to ban Mute City... always. Especially ESPECIALLY if they play Peach or Jigglypuff.

 

[Dogysamich]

Yeah, until this saturday, I would always ban Yoshi's Story unless I was going against Jiggs or Peach, then I'd ban Mute City.

I've only gone against a samus once in friendlies, and I banned Pokemon Stadium. I dont want to be the victim of missle spam.

As for other characters, I dont really know what's good/bad for them.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah. Mute City is definately a bad stage for Doc. No room for defense, no good way to recover.

I'm wondering about YS. I used to hate YS, but as I've been playing more, it seems to be a decent stage. Although small, and the platforms are low (which gives characters like Marth an advantage) I like playing people there. The platforms are a nice height for mobility, and docs horrible recovery isn't as much a detriment here. Why exactly is it a bad stage against people other than marth (and maybe ganondorf)? I've seen people say Falco ***** Doc here, but wondering why. You get platforms to avoid lasers and help mess up combos, and its really easy to gimp space animals' recoveries.

I'm guessing that as Falco's recovery is worse than Doc's falco wouldn't mind the close kill zones, but any other reasons?

 

[Dogysamich]

Well, imo, when I play Falco, I like stages with platforms.

They help to extend pillar combos, because the platform gives you (the person being comboed) less time to recover.

Against alot of characters, I cant imagine why YS is bad, but I think any character that can really abuse platforms (which is quite a few) it might be bad.

 

[Kashakunaki]

St. Viers, the reason taking space animals to platformed stages, such as Yoshi's Story, is bad is because you can't chain grab worth a crap. Number one reason.

 

[St. Viers]

heh, I can't chaingrab that well, so meh. Thats a good reason though: I prefer to just have them hit that platform and then have an easy techchase

 

[Dogysamich]

Aight, here's a good question that just came up for me last week.

Where do you take a samus?

I went against a samus, and I had no clue where to go.

I wasnt gunna give him Mute City, I consider that suicide for Doc. But that left me to contend with Kirby 64 and Pokemon Stadium.

Corneria was banned, and I was iffy to go to FD cause I felt as if I was catching the bad end of spam despite the fact that the samus wasnt platform cancelling (not enough for me to notice, atleast)

And in the end, I threw out a "last ditch effort", took him to Rainbow Cruise and went Kirby. (And somehow managed to make the match interesting)

 

[REDRAGON]

This is somewhat off topic but i want to add to my Samus Stage selection(Check sig).
I was wondering out of FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's story, Dream land, Kongo 64, FoD, and Pokemon stadium which level does Doc have the advantage on Samus???

So like FD- Samus advantage
Kongo jungle- 64 Doc advantage
Etc etc etc.....

Thanks!!!

Redragon

 

[Dogysamich]

This is somewhat off topic but i want to add to my Samus Stage selection(Check sig).
I was wondering out of FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's story, Dream land, Kongo 64, FoD, and Pokemon stadium which level does Doc have the advantage on Samus???

So like FD- Samus advantage
Kongo jungle- 64 Doc advantage
Etc etc etc.....

Thanks!!!

Redragon

Well, it's a cold hard fact that Samus has the advantage on Kirby 64 cause of the size, and on Pokemon Stadium cause of platform cancelled missles.

FD i'd argue either way, but I think it'd go more to Samus cause it's harder for Doc to approach samus than it is for Samus to approach Doc.

I never thought of Kongo 64, wish I would have. I personally dont like it for Doc, but I cant imagine it being too bad since you take Samus's grapple option for recovering. (Although you trade giving her a high recovery).

As for Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, and FoD, I really dunno.

I'd say if anything, Yoshi's Story might go to Doc since it's smaller, but I think it comes down to preference of the players.

FoD might go to Samus because again - platform cancelling.

____

I really dont know. I just know that I dont give Samus mute city, and that if i could ban Mute City, PS, and K64, i'd ban em all and be merry.

 

[Mix]

FoD is deff samus... pro samus users have the ability to come back from virtually anything horizontal that doesnt kill them there... you know... at the bottom of the stage. they airdodge up and grab the bottom the pull up wall jump then up b. its amazing. haha so therefor NO FoD against samus.

 

[Dogysamich]

So.

Where's some good stages to take a fox and where are some good ones to take a falco?

 

[Vitaminless22]

I was wondering when is a good time (if any) to take anyone to Battlefield. I absolutely despise that place and I was wondering if I can use it to my advantage in any way possible....

 

[Dogysamich]

I noticed that normally when i play a fox or a falco player, they'll ban BF.

I was thinking Mute City might be a good counter pick, since you dont give them room to run around. But you obviously sacrifice the ledges you may need to survive.

Brinstar might also be a good level so you can "GET EM IN THE LAVA COMBO!!!!"

 

[St. Viers]

I was wondering when is a good time (if any) to take anyone to Battlefield. I absolutely despise that place and I was wondering if I can use it to my advantage in any way possible....

Gimpy edges+naturally gimpy recovery for doc means that he can sweetspot easily, as long as you make sure you don't end up under it. Also, that edge scares people, so it is more likely that they would miss their sweetspot-> easy cape death.

Besides that, I dislike it as well.

 

[Dogysamich]

I've never been a fan of BF, but I need a place to take them, if availible D:

I was also thinkin jungle japes, maybe? But i know alot of falco's like it.

Brinstar's always a good choice. GET EM IN THE LAVA COMBO!!!

 

[Gea]

Traditionally FD is used for spacies for the chainthrows. Cyphus is a particular fan of Corneria for just about everything but I personally hate that ****. Mute City might be good for spacies if not for the horrible blast zones for Doc's killmoves. A fox/falco can just kill you off the top LONG before you ever have a chance to and while their recovery takes a dive because of lack of edges... so does yours. Only one part of the stage really makes the cape useful and I unno... I find the lack of room makes tech chasing a breeze for anyone on you. I just feel cornered. Think of it this way, if you're EVER caught in your shield when the platform is moving you're pretty screwed.

Honestly I love Kongo Jungle (not 64) but that's banned now. :< People fall through Corneria and that isn't banned... I mean come on. Oh, but back to stages...

While sometimes you have to take people on Dreamland 64, that's Doc's worst stage if you ask me. Just about everyone gets an advantage there that you don't. Platforms are too high for easy play, wide blast zones and crappy recovery do not equal yayness.

Yeah, Brinstar is alright if you actually get used to it. Could be a good surprise stage against spacies. While battlefield is a real *****... its pretty **** good against Samus (compared to most others) if you ask me. She mostly looses her grapple and the sides aren't THAT wide. Corneria is another good one. Just remember Samus can **** Doc up upclose too. Sex kick and tilts don't leave Doc with too much he can do. The range on Fsmash is just too good for your stubby arms.

My honest suggestion for good counterpicks on characters that don't have definitive ones is:

1. Pick a stage that is not banned but is obscure (if you can stand Brinstar and stand the whining over it, use it)
2. Get good with it.
3. Whip it out for the "wtf" and throw people off because you know the stage well.

 

[Dogysamich]

She mostly looses her grapple and the sides aren't THAT wide. Corneria is another good one.

Actually, she doesnt really lose her grapple at all. She just has to go under the stage.

 

[Bullet Bill]

Brinstar is a great counterpick for fox/falco. final destination I think is the best stage for everything else.

 

[Askeflink]

I really liked to play on Green greens. Good for pills, short sides, cape bombs and it really fits my game good. Does not work too well against Fox.

 

[yomedrath]

i´m wondering why you think brinstar is good against spacies...
i´m not real experienced, but the i feel, what you have against spaciesd is Edgeguard and CG... no?

dont you pretty much destroy both of that on brinstar? i mean you cant kill them with edguarding because of that lava, and there are some wierd platforms...

also ... whats the LAVA COMBO ? XD

 

[Dogysamich]

FFs get comboed to all ends of the earth by lava. So if you need to KO them, you can hit them off the sides (which are real close)

Again fox, you are giving him a low ceiling, which could bite you in the ***, but it might be worth it.

___

**off topic**

And im glad somebody finally asked about the lava combo, lol.

I actually had nothing to do with this, but a few weeks ago in GA we had a tournament, and Reflex (an alabama bowser main) took a fox player to brinstar (im not gunna say the guys name, he can fess up to this if he wants).

So as the fox is standing on the respawn platform, reflex goes to stand on the bubble things. As soon as the fox drops, reflex does a downsmash, and completely breaks the stage. Fox falls straight down into the lava (still in his invincibility). His invinciblity wears off, and he gets comboed by the lava; and conviently, the last hit sends him right up into a bowser f.smash.

And thus, the lava combo was born.

 

[Thanatos180]

L-m-a-o

That Fox got OWNED!!! I wish I was there. Hehe.

Anyways, to answer your question, my favorite stage for Fox would probably be FD. His lasers don't stun, so that is a plus one on the happy gauge. You can chaingrab him easily, Doc Punch combo him easily, and it isn't too difficult to cape/predict recoveries. However, it is easier for them to tech and sweetspot than on other stages (but it is that way for you as well). Just as long as you are weary of the shine spike and up throw to uair, I think you're good.

For Falco... he's a little different. The flat stage gives him a huge advantage with lasers. However, if he is an intelligent Falco he isn't going to spam them because they'll just get caped back at him. A Falco player might only do a few lasers before he comes in for a grab, shine, aerial, or what have you. So (as I know someone on this board often repeats) if you can cape that last or second to last laser, you will mess up their rythem long enough to maybe do a pill rush or run up for a grab. Just stay close to Falco and you should be good. Other than that... I'd probably take him to FD, as well. Or maybe Dreamland 64... DEFINITELY NOT Fountain of Dreams, though.

EDIT: This is Kashakunaki.

 

[Dogysamich]

See, and that's the problem I've had with falcos.

it seems every falco I play either figures out im going to cape his **** and stops SHB, or he's smart enough to know im going to cape it, so he only does it to cover my techs.

I've always considered Kirby64, but I tend to shy away from it cause Doc's recovery is just as bad, and I usually have corneria as an option. D:

 

[Gea]

Actually, she doesnt really lose her grapple at all. She just has to go under the stage.

It is alot less useful though. When she is above the lip of the stage and moderately close you can rule out the grapple alot of the time, which helps you actually predict for an edgeguard. What I'm saying is... its harder for Samus to snap a sweetspot.

 

[Dogysamich]

True. I'll give ya that.

I just wanted it to be known that BF does not kill samus's grapple.

 

[Gea]

I was wondering when is a good time (if any) to take anyone to Battlefield. I absolutely despise that place and I was wondering if I can use it to my advantage in any way possible....

Just remember this:

Almost everyone hates battlefield. Well... alot of characters anyways. The thing about Doc is that he doesn't get totally ****ed over by any stages except maybe DreamLand 64. The rest you are going to pick based off of your opponent. However since dreamland64 is on the random (and there are usually better counterpick stages to ban) you're going to end up playing there sometimes.

Its rare anyone calls battlefield for a counterpick... honestly I'd never take anyone there willingly myself.

 

[Dogysamich]

Actually.

Most of the characters that really dont get hurt by BF usually wont take you there (Floaties + Sheik, i hear sheik dominates that stage).

Everybody else, there really is no point in taking them there because you cripple your chaingrab.

____

As for Dreamland, i've found that in general, if you are going to ban dreamland on somebody, you probably outta ban Mute City instead, since it's probably a floatie.


If it's NOT a floatie, and you're just afraid of their big recovery, then yeah, you might wanna ban Dreamland. You also might wanna take somebody to dreamland if you just want to stay alive forever (i.e. if you have **** DI.)

 

[Gea]

Exactly, mute is the kind of stage you'd ban against...say, a peach.

 

[Dogysamich]

I ban it against peach and jiggs with not thought.

I normally ban it against samus too, but i weight in the option that Samus on K64 is broken.

 

[pockyD]

samus isn't THAT good on mute city; she really likes edges (and walls) a LOT more than peach and jiggs do; dreamland is probably the right ban there

 

[REDRAGON]

samus isn't THAT good on mute city; she really likes edges (and walls) a LOT more than peach and jiggs do; dreamland is probably the right ban there

Yeah, i dont see Mute city as a great Samus stage.
Without a doubt ban Dl64 against Samus. She lives FOREVER on that stage lol.
Btw check sig for more info....

Redragon

 

[Dogysamich]

samus isn't THAT good on mute city; she really likes edges (and walls) a LOT more than peach and jiggs do; dreamland is probably the right ban there

It's not so much as samus is **** on it as the fact that she can live with using it while doc cant.

It's kinda hard to get samus to up+b back to the stage, so you cant punish her landing lag. And even if you do get her to up+b, you have to AVOID it and stay fairly close to her to punish her. Just doesnt work out.

--

And to go on.

When I went to pound2, i played watty (**** samus player) and ironically, he banned DL64 on me. Completely confused me.

I asked him why he did it later, he said "I didnt want you living forever".

I laughed sooooo hard. But i got dominated, so I guess it worked.

 

[DaBRÜM]

A samus banned dreamland against a doc!!! did he know you were playing doc?
and uhh, doc, live forever...nah
lol

 

[Eaode]

Yeah I would definitely take a Fox to FD, CT + combos + cape = win ^_^

Vs Falco I'm not sure..... DK64?

 

[Kashakunaki]

I'd take Falco to FD as well, but definitely not FoD.

Freaking Samus. Samus is officially my new hardest to beat character. Even the noobiest Samus seems to be able to beat me.

 

[Roman.]

Samus to BF, even if you don't like it she doesn't like it even more. Don't worry about the missles, be patient and just cape em. Spacies straight to FD, falco NEVER FoD. Ban mute city against floatys. Personally, my favorate stage is FD but watch out against a falcon, scary.