Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[Excel_Zero]

Another thing that I do with Samus when playing Foxes are punish them if they shine a missile. I usually go with dair into bair. And yes Samus has the advantage on neutral Pokemon Stadium, but if it changes then Fox will take the advantage (even so Samus can missile spam on all of the places effortlessly except the rock part).


Edit: A good and skilled Fox can have the advantage on Pokemon Stadium too if Samus missile spams. Fox can counter with his SHL which is a lot faster, while shining back the missiles (if he is at a safe distance), or Powershielding/Shielding them. Fox will have the luxury to make Samus do the approaching, which puts him at the advantage.

 

[JFox]

I will be away Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. While I am away, I would like you guys to begin discussing Fox Vs. Doctor Mario. When I get back I will take a look at what you guys have come up with.

Make up your own lists with all 6 neutral stages, and than give reasons to back up your opinions. Dispute with each other, and if possible, make a list that you guys can generally agree upon.

 

[SCOTU]

FD: Disadvantage - chainthrowing + pills = bad.
Dreamland: slight disadvantage - same as FD, but w/ platforms
YS: (slight) advantage - small stage, easy to kill doc, no room for pills (it has some advantage, not sure how much)
PS: slight advantage - fox's laser + transformation usage > pillspamming & chainthrowing
FoD: not sure, probably slight advantage?, maybe neutral?
Battlefield: neutral? not sure on this either.

 

[halfDemon]

I was gone for a bit, so I missed quite a few matchups. I just quickly want to mention that Fox vs Falcon on FoD should be a strong advantage. FoD destroys any and all Falcon combos and gives him no room to run around or approach Fox.

 

[JFox]

HalfDemon- I feel that stage is a bad stage too, but Fox is certainly not unbeatable there. The stage really messes them both up, it just is far worse for Falcon. I think strong advantage should be reserved for only the most extreme cases of counter picks. (Such as Samus Vs. Fox on Brinstar for example) I think disadvantage is strong enough for a neutral stage.

I would say this for Fox vs Doc-

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
FoD- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage

I don't see how PS transformations assist Fox in any way.
FoD sucks for Fox. He just gets caught in a web of platforms and loses a lot of speed and mobility here. Its also extremely difficult to combo here.

 

[SCOTU]

a decent list, any changes i'd make are only slight and from experience, and yeah, i changed my mind about PS, the transformations are good for pilling, good for infiniting too, but that's not a major factor in most pro's games (only mine).

 

[Pekkle]

Dreamland64 = slight advantage, cause doc has bad recovery.
FoD = slight disadvantage
Final Destination = disadvatage

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I was under the impression that Doc has good recovery... and if Doc DIs up from an attack, DL is big enough to survive, and then he floats down towards the edge...

I could be a noob though.

 

[SCOTU]

anyway, why does having bad recovery make DL worse for doc? Having good recovery makes the stage good for you, but having bad recovery doesn't make a big stage worse.

 

[St. Viers]

because the fact that he can't use the extra size, whereas fox can. Even with DI, doc's recovery is decent at best (I main doc, jsyk).

I'd say that DL64 is a disadvantage for doc. Platforms disallow chainthrowing, as well as gives the fox more options when recovering. Doc also does better with lower platforms (FoD, YS)

so in order of best to worst for doc I'd say: (this is all IMO)
FD, PS, FoD, YS,BF , DL64.

Yoshi Story is about the same as BF for Doc, but the low kills zones make it better, although up-smash kills quicker.

 

[JFox]

If anything, perhaps DL 64 is neutral, but definitely not slight advantage Fox. Doc can edgegaurd much better against fox than vice versa. And although Doc has a small recovery, Fox has a hard time hitting him off the stage without him going up diagonally, making it not so hard to get back on. The stage really hurts fox more because of the high ceiling that the outside walls.

Since it seems pretty mixed, I think I'll change it to neutral for now.

Edit: So I've decided that due to the similarity between the characters, Doc and Mario are going to be considered equal and the same in terms of the counter pick stages. There really just aren't enough differences between doc and mario that they should have any differences in the stages that favor them against Fox.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

=O you're gonna get flamed =P
zomg they are totally diff characterz wtfz u talkin bout u dunno nothin zomg i mayn teh mari0 n hez TROTALly bettah than that vagz docz h HE HAS teh fzmhash. and teh Uairrz comboz.

I suggest that we say we keep it the same, unless someone has personal experience/ knowledge that speaks otherwise.

 

[St. Viers]

I'd say smaller stages and platforms are slightly better against mario, as he lacks kill moves, and they don't give him as much room to combo. Plus, smaller stages make his better recovery less important.

Despite that, it would still be about the same, except maybe DL64 would be better for him than for Doc.

 

[JFox]

Ok, I'm not so sure how accurate the Fox vs Mario is, but it doesn't seem like much is going to change on it since people stopped giving input. Lets move on to the next character on the list.

Fox Vs. Jigglypuff

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Fountain of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

 

[SCOTU]

very accurate list there against jiggs. i like that one a lot. keep it how it is.

 

[Sure Dave]

Ok, I'm not so sure how accurate the Fox vs Mario is, but it doesn't seem like much is going to change on it since people stopped giving input. Lets move on to the next character on the list.

Fox Vs. Jigglypuff

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Fountain of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

That's a nice list. Why is it changed on the front page?

 

[SCOTU]

yeah, wait. i like the list in you post rather than at the front. the front isn't right. this one down here is right.

 

[JFox]

oh, they list in the front is the same as the mario list, cuz i just copied and pasted the wrong list lol.

fixed it.

Edit: Glad you like my list

 

[Excel_Zero]

I don't think Dreamland is a disadvantage for Fox against Jiggz. I know that Jiggz can resist a lot more here, but for some reasons I say Fox has the advantage:

1. Jiggz can have a bad time chasing down a speedy defensive Fox because of the big size of the stage.
2. Fox can laser the hell out of jiggz here with ease.
3. Rests can be resisted more than on smaller stages (not much difference here, even with DI).
4. The ceiling is high, but Jiggz can go off the top here around the same % as someone else on a smaller stage.

I'd say Dreamland is Slight Advantage for Fox. Of course you need to know how to play it.

 

[SCOTU]

at *best* neutral, at best. but i'd say its still disadvantage, although certain playstyles/ people may have different workings w/ the stage, like some foxen like it more that others.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

lol nevermind

 

[Eggm]

I would personally ban FD vses jiggs with fox.. I feel thats a slight disadvantage, and i agree dreamland can be used as a slight advantage, I woudlnt mind fighting jiggs there with fox at all.

Oh and a good couterpick stage vs jiggs is green greens. xD

Edit : I forgot to say why vses the jiggs on FD. Up throw rest. Also, what advantage does not having platforms give? Platforms make it easier to combo the already hard to combo jiggs and get earlier kills doing up smashes or up airs off of them, and they catch you so you don't get up throw rested, The only saving grace is that MAYBE jiggs will be a little more vulnerable to laser spam, but honestly i'd rather have platforms for that too lol. FD's also pretty large so KO's aren't that easy, also the way the stage is shaped its kinda easy to gimp using kicks against your up + b there. Its not like you can waveshine combo jiggs into up smashes so the flat land is usefull -_-;, please let me know why you think FD is a slight advantage vs jiggs?

 

[JFox]

FD at higher levels of play is a really good stage for Fox. I personally fear the uthrow rest still, but people like PC Chris or m2k love this stage. Once you get past the uthrow rest, theres nothing jiggs can really do to you here.

Fox can triple laser spam here with ease, which is great against jiggs. Fox JUST camps here. That is all he does and she is hopeless. Also Fox gets stuck on platforms a lot while full jumping around. She uses platforms to tech chase him beautifully. (uthrow tech chase rest by doyoung2win is nice example)

Its also more difficult to gimp fox here because A) The stage is so wide so to get him off the edge is more difficult here. B) You can drop down with your UP B so that jiggs cant get to you in time to gimp you and than ride the wall back up.

 

[JFox]

Fox Vs. Ganondorf

Final Destination-Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield-Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

FD is great for Fox, while simultaneously being awful for Ganon. Ganon <3 platforms. It makes it nice and easy to trap his opponent, wait for a tech, and than just jump up and Fair them, and no matter where they go, they are certain to get hit. But without those platforms, he has to mindgames all of his power KOs. Also Ganon's movement is severely hindered by the lack of platforms. At the same time, this is also Fox's favority stage to combo ganon around.

Yoshi's Story- The only reason I say this isn't a full advantage is because Fox gets killed by the small walls just as much as Ganon, if not more. He dies at percents where he normally would be high enough to make it back onto the stage. Although Ganon dies earlier than normal, Fox normally has no problem edgegaurding Ganon's predictable recovery, which is untrue vice versa. However, the shine spike-ability of this stage, along with the low ceiling keeps it in Fox's slight advantage.

Dreamland- The walls are huge, but this isn't going to help you. The walls are so big that Fox can't make it back even if he does survive, making the extra length worthless to his recovery. On the other hand, Ganon, due to his endless Down B double jumps, will always end up coming back. Its also just harder to get Ganon off the stage far enough to put him in edgegaurd position. And lastly, this stage is the best stage to take advantage of Ganon's extremely effective waveland on platforms because of the height of the platforms.

All the rest seem pretty easy to figure out, with the exception of Battlefield, which I have no explanation for. I just feel that from personal experience, I don't like fighting Ganon on that stage.

 

[SCOTU]

I always thought that YS was a better stage for Ganon because he has just so much killing power that the small boundaries make for easy kills by him. There are also platforms here to help w/ his techchased ganon punches.

 

[JFox]

That is what I meant by the small walls hurting Fox on YS. Perhaps I underestimated the effectiveness. With more input, I may change it to more in Ganon's advantage.

 

[pockyD]

i disagree that ganon could have a legitimate advantage on any of the neutrals except yoshi's story

huge recovery on dreamland isn't a big factor; if your fox can't easily edgeguard a ganondorf, you're losing because you're bad, not because of the stage

the big ceiling hurts a bit but imo made up for by extra camping space an therefore free laser damage; still not fox's best stage vs ganondorf (i'd actually say it's pokestad) but it's certainly not disadvantageous

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Okay, I actually play this matchup a lot. *Is no longer useless*. I also main ganon now lol =)

YS is neutral, if not an advantage for ganon. Fox likes space to weave in and out and **** ganon, and combo him. On YS, fox tends to get hit by a lot more fairs. The close-together platforms give ganon added speed through wavelanding, etc. I understand fox's strengths here, but we're not talking about character advantages, we are talking about stage advantages. And this is a Ganon stage.

I find it hard to play against Ganon in battlefield because of edgeguarding, but I guess to each their own.

Call me crazy, but I say only slight disadvantage on dreamland. Random-spamming works a lot against ganon, and this is a gooooood stage for out spacing and out prioritizing him. I mostly agree with everything else.

 

[JFox]

Fox Vs. Ganondorf

Final Destination-Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield-Neutral
Dreamland- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi's Story- Disadvantage

Ok, how does this look to everyone now?

 

[pockyD]

i still think fox is too fast for ganon to handle on a wide stage like dreamland

 

[Inui]

Final Destination-Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield-Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

On FD, it's like, mega ****. Ganondorf has 0 answers to laser camping and is easily waveshined to death, either into an up smash, u-throw to u-air, or a shine spike off the side.

Yoshi's Story is probably Ganondorf's best stage against Fox. It cripples Fox's camping game better than any stage, and Ganondorf outright kills Fox at lower percents. Ganondorf's u-air covers almost a quarter of the stage, which is nice for him.

Pokemon Stadium is better for Fox. Low ceilingis good for him, and long sides is bad for Ganondorf. Also, Fox can camp well here, much like at FD.

Fountain of Dreams is much like Yoshi's Story, but those platforms can be annoying for Ganondorf. This stage is better for Ganondorf, though.

Battlefield is pretty even. The edge isn't ******** enough to make Fox lose here or anything like that, since he's effed if he's off the stage anywhere anyways. It's just a basic stage, so Fox being a counter makes him win.

Dreamland is overrated for Ganondorf. The large sides and ceiling keeps him alive, but he's going to die whether he's off the stage at Dreamland or off the stage at Yoshi's Story because he's so easy to gimp and edgeguard. However, Ganondorf doesn't get to kill at low percents anymore. This stage is only good for Ganondorf is he abuses the platforms and doesn't get edgeguarded at low percents. So, neither character really wins here.

Oh, by the way, Fox has the advantage on every stage because he counters Ganondorf quite heavily.

 

[JFox]

I'd like to mention that Inui is a great Ganon player with a large amount of knowledge about stages as well as the game in general.

Inui, thank you for your input. I will make the necessary changes.

 

[pockyD]

that's pretty much in line with what i had said, jason fox

for that you get called jason fox for another month, jason fox

 

[SCOTU]

That list looks much better to me now.

 

[JFox]

Pocky, I changed the stages I did according to all the input given to me, including yours. There is no reason to be sour about anything.

 

[SCOTU]

Is you're name actually jason, and is that where the 'J' comes from, or is he just making sh*t up? I think it's time to move to the next character. Oh, and i used info from this list at a recent tourney, so thanks Jfox, and everyone else for contributing.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I agree with that list.
and intelligent input with intelligent evidence is all that's needed to come to a conclusion, you don't have to be a well-known anything. =)

 

[takieddine]

I don't think Fox has a slight advantage over Falco on FD at all. Falco can SHL until next christmas as well as pull off hardcore shine combos.

Although, Fox can get his u-throw -> u-airs in, but it's more of a Falco Destination than somewhere for Fox.

I never, ever have problems with falco's lasers on FD, on the contrary, the flat surface gives great oppertunities for running powershields. chaingrabs, and great death combos.

If anything shine combo's should matter more.

 

[Omni]

i like being both Fox and Ganon in this match-up. yuuum.
inui speaks the truth with the stages. fox ***** ganon all-around but those answers are still politically correct.

 

[JFox]

Yes, my first name is Jason. Jay for short. I shortened it to J for this name. My friends just find it funny to put my full name in, or something.

Business!

Fox Vs. Link

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disdvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage


These are tough...I think they are all pretty neutral really.