Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[SCOTU]

oh, yeah, those are hard to rate, and i play against link some. i think FD, and Stadium are right, Yoshi's story i don't see the advantage, wait nevmd no projectile spamming for link, nowhere to run. Ok, i like Story now two, Dreamland is definately the worst neutral in the matchup, but even that's not too bad. What's with FoD? i don't know at all why that's S. Disadvantage, maybe neutral? The only thing i can think of for battlefield is there is no wall to slide along for recovery to not get hit by the spinstrike. but those are tough calls.

 

[Oskurito]

any stage that fox can waveshine the crap out of link will be good, like FD, PS or maybe dream land, the only problem I see with the small stages is that link can gimp fox with his up-b spike... Anyway link should be no problem for fox

 

[technomancer]

Smaller stages worse, bigger stages better in Fox vs. Link. You can get almost all of your kills from shinespikes. Link has the roughest time on PS, I think, because the stage transformations cramp his spammage and allow Fox to tech everything, plus the occasional wall infinite.

 

[Omni]

Yoshi's Story- Fox
Final Destination- Fox
Pokemon Stadium- Fox
Battlefield- Fox
*Link's recovery sucks balls here. *
Fountain of Dreams - Link
Dreamland- Netural
*Only thing Link has going for him here is space to run from the ****. He can't abuse the platforms as well as Fox can. Fox also has plenty of space to keep his distance and circle aroudn him with lasers.


Fox counters Link so hard, Link will always be at a disadvantage. Dreamland happens to be his best bet simply because he can live longer, but that goes the same for Fox.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

fox counters link really hard?! that's news to me.
I donno why, but I keep hearing that Link can stand his own against fox. and recently, I played a good link player, and I semi agreed. Surprised, even. anyway, the stages look pretty good. But i'd also like to hear something about FOD? I'd think that would be a fox stage.

I don't think fox lives longer than he would on any other stage against link. Link tends to not kill fox upwards, and Fox's recovery is going to be the same no matter what, despite a little falling DI towards the stage. At least link has... heaviness and bomb recovery and chain to get on the stage. and battlefield vs link isn't very much fun for me at least =(

 

[JFox]

For the last time, this isn't a thread dedicated to who is better on what stage. You are supposed to think "hmm, well I know Fox ***** *insert character*, but does he **** harder, or less hard, or just as hard on this stage as on other stages"

This means that if Fox vs Link on a completely neutral stage is a 7 out of 10, than a stage that makes the matchup is considered a 6 out of 10, hence the slight disadvantage, EVEN THOUGH Fox still has the advantage.

Now to arguing:
Dreamland:
Fox doesn't live any longer on dreamland than FD. On FD, if Fox doesn't hit the wall, he still often dies. Link on the other hand can still DI up, float back, double jump, air dodge, and than hookshot the bottom of the stage if necessary.That means that Dreamland is only helping one person's recovery: Link. Link, with good DI, does not die until you hit him into that wall. Killing him horizontally or vertically, is going to be harder here than anywhere else. The laser advantage on Link really doesn't mean a lot cuz Link is happy spamming right back. Its not enough to tip the scale back to neutral.

IMO- Dreamland is slight disadvantage.

FoD- This stage just messes up Fox, and doesn't hurt Link. Link actually only really likes this stage BECAUSE other people hate it. The platforms are only going to mess up your combos. Also you have no room to move on this stage, and your SHL sucks. And if anything, his spam just gets worse here.

I'm really mixed when it comes to Battlefield. Both of your recoveries are pretty lousy here. I think for now I'm gonna leave it at neutral.

 

[kerploplesteesh]

okay... well, IMO FD is a clear advantage. It is possible for link to use those bombs, but it does make it considerably harder because when fox shdls, the bombs get interrupted by the blast(on FD its easier to avoid those bombs using the laser method). Sweetspotting for fox is also easier on FD. This makes the vulpine less vunerable to the edge hurricane spin. While the dimensions of the stage itself would lead one to believe that it's not a classic fox stage, the dimensions dont aid link in particular either. Oh yeah... and how could i forget... you can waveshine link to absolutely no end on FD.


Edit: Link is also more vunerable to up throw - up air on final. This is due to the lack of platforms.

anyway, it all means one thing, advantage for fox on FD.

double edit: sorry, were not aruging that at the current moment.

 

[pockyD]

For the last time, this isn't a thread dedicated to who is better on what stage. You are supposed to think "hmm, well I know Fox ***** *insert character*, but does he **** harder, or less hard, or just as hard on this stage as on other stages"

This means that if Fox vs Link on a completely neutral stage is a 7 out of 10, than a stage that makes the matchup is considered a 6 out of 10, hence the slight disadvantage, EVEN THOUGH Fox still has the advantage.

well i think "advantage" and "disadvantage" are extreme misnomers then if that's how you are interpreting them

why not just use that number system you just drummed up to make an example? people can easily compare numbers to see which stage is more favorable and yet still see that fox would have the upper hand on every stage

saying "disadvantage" is just confusing

 

[SCOTU]

No, i strongly agree w/ the current system. You can easily look to see what stages you'd want to counterpick against certain characters. So you'd be counterpicking at a disadvantage if it's a stage more favorable to link. JFox has been over this several times. Its about the stage usage in a matchup, not just the matchup. A stage disadvantageous to fox doesn't mean fox is at a disadvantage, it just means the stage is better for the other character.

 

[JFox]

If everyone would just learn to read before jumping to post, this system would do just fine.

It isn't necessary to do a number scale, not to mention the difficulty of it. And frankly, its just a pain in the ***.

This is it- this is the system. I'm already almost through, and pretty soon we will be ready to go to counter picking, which is the fun part of the thread. I'm not going to back track just to try and get a more precise system that would simply be inaccurate anyway.

Now listen- just ignore the match up and think "does this stage hurt fox in the matchup, help him even more, or not affect the matchup whatsoever." That's it, its that simple.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

what have we agreed on for link? and does anyone have any additional imput?

 

[kenny10]

In my opinion, I think Fox and Link are pretty even in FD because of all the room. I know Fox can laser camp and waveshine Link like there's no tomorrow but Link can easily respond to this using his projectiles. Also, there aren't platforms for Fox to move around avoiding Link's projectiles, up+B attack, grab, etc. He also has an easier time uair juggling like Fox does with his uthrow-uair combo. Anyways, this is just my opinion.

 

[teh_spamerer]

If we're going by what stage helps who more then I'd say Fox vs Link is

Yoshi's Story - Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium - Slight Advantage
Battlefield - Neutral
Fountain of Dreams - Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland - Slight Disadvantage

YS is a very tiny stage making it hard for Link to keep away from Fox if he's constantly attacking, the platforms are set up for invincible waveland bair from the ledge, the ceiling is low so Fox kills with upsmashes at a lower percents than normal, and the cloud is probably going to help Fox more than Link because Fox can get more height with his up b and he can use shine to stall.

If we're going by how much someone wins on a certain stage than it's

Yoshi's Story - Advantage
Final Destination - Advantage
Pokemon Stadium - Advantage
Battlefield - Advantage
Fountain of Dreams - Slight Advantage
Dreamland 64 - Slight Advantage

 

[Ryan-K]

I wouldnt put dreamland on the same level as fountain, because although link can live long, so can fox (very easy to survive spin at like 150-160ish) plus you have alot more freedom for movement but it all comes down to style though IMO. For scaling's sake I would put FoD disadvantage and dreamland for slight

 

[JFox]

Thank you teh_spammerer for gracing us with your Link knowledge. I'm glad to see I pretty much had most of it nailed.

Superryan, what makes you think that FoD is such a good stage for link? You didn't say anything about it, just that its a disadvantage.

 

[JFox]

Let's just move on, I think I like the way Fox vs. Link is looking. If anyone needs to bring up any points not previously made, you may do so. (so long as you feel they are important enough to warrant moving backwards a bit)

Fox Vs. Luigi
(This is another stage I'm gonna need some help with)

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Battlefield- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Final Destination- Neutral
FoD- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

Basically I think this match up has a lot to do with Luigi's recovery. Luigi actually has pretty nasty recovery in the hands of a master. So to avoid those ridiculous percentages, its just really nice having a nice small stage to assist you. Since combo's most combo's no longer work on Luigi once at higher percents, killing vertically becomes difficult, so getting a kill early in percent in somewhere like YS is very beneficial in this matchup. However, if forced to go sideways for the kill, its going to be really hard when Luigi just floats to the top corner of the screen, and than just DI's back to safety. This is obviously most troublesome on Dreamland.

Battlefield I would think just sucks hardcore for Luigi because he would end up just getting stuck under the stage. I dunno, personally that would annoy me. But I'm not even sure if thats a problem or not since I don't play Luigi.

FoD just seems like a nice arrangement of platforms for Luigi to combo Fox on. I would think his arial down B would be effective and tricky, popping them up for a good follow up, or simply just evading arials when in rough spots. Also Luigi's SH doesn't make him get stuck on low platforms, unlike most of the cast, so the stage certainly shouldn't hurt him. And the way I see it, if it hurts your opponent and not you, your at the advantage.

Final Destination and PS just don't seem to have much going for either character, with exception to MAYBE the fox's laser game, but I think Luigi tends to be on top of Fox enough for it to be pretty negligible in this matchup.

 

[SCOTU]

that's about right. Also keep in mind that a shine on a small stage like YS or Battlefield, will often result in luigi being off the stage. FD maybe slight disadvantage, luigi can chain throw fox, although it's never been done to me, so i don't know how impactual it really is.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Fox Vs. Luigi
(This is another stage I'm gonna need some help with)

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Battlefield- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Final Destination- Neutral
FoD- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage

Final Destination and PS just don't seem to have much going for either character, with exception to MAYBE the fox's laser game, but I think Luigi tends to be on top of Fox enough for it to be pretty negligible in this matchup.

I'm going to disagree with Pokemon Stadium just for the sake of wall infinites and that Fox can camp on it a lot. True the wall infinites are only on the mountain and fire parts of the stage but they DO exist. And I'm not "100%" sure on this but I think that Fox can CC Luigi's up b into a shine spike. I know it works if he doesn't perfectly sweetspot but I'm not sure if it works if he does perfectly sweetspot.

I wouldnt put dreamland on the same level as fountain, because although link can live long, so can fox (very easy to survive spin at like 150-160ish) plus you have alot more freedom for movement but it all comes down to style though IMO.

Freedom of movement helps Link out more than Fox. The hardest part of doing that match is that Link can't really do anything once Fox gets in his face.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

FD against Luigi is a disadvantage straight up... fun wavedashing for luigi here, fun combos, fun wall hugging, and an easier recovery than on some stages. and fun far walls. yay for FD!

 

[JFox]

Yeah I think I'm actually going to have to agree. Fox gets CG'ed on FD, Luigi has plenty of combos, and Fox can't use the platforms to help him with recovery.

I also agree that stadium should be moved to a slight advantage. And I think FoD too. I was talkin to someone, and they were tellin me they hate playin Luigi on FoD because they just don't have much room to move.

Edit: BTW spammerer, you can CC shine spike Luigi, but I don't know about if he sweetspots. Probably, but only with really good timing.

 

[SCOTU]

yes, you can if he sweetspots it, it's just harder to do.

 

[kenny10]

that's about right. Also keep in mind that a shine on a small stage like YS or Battlefield, will often result in luigi being off the stage.

Also, on a small stage like YS, it's also harder for a Luigi to wavedash a lot because of the size of the stage. Then there's also Luigi's recovery. For a Luigi, it's easy to just DI back to the stage from the side. With Luigi being semi-light and YS's sort of low ceiling, it only helps amplify Fox's vertical kills.

 

[technomancer]

I actually disagree about YS and FoD, I've played the matchup with Vist (beast MD luigi) many times and I get ***** hardest on YS, FoD and FD, with Dreamland being my safest stage, and stadium is fantastic because there are opportunities for wall infinites and lots of high places for Fox to jump down onto Luigi, who can't beat the priority of your nair from below, or your dair or bair for that matter.

The tech-chasing game is pretty clutch in this matchup. Luigi wants you to have less options when you tech, so he wants to throw you up onto platforms for easy dairs and fairs, he wants to throw you near edges so he can ftilt/dair you off the side, or combo and build damage off of an easy techchase. Luigi is absolutely not averse to fighting in close quarters because he never has to tech and can sex kick out of most of your combos and straight through poorly timed approaches. He also has a fairly good crouch cancelling game against Fox, because he'll slide out of range of a shine if the Fox spaces poorly, and then he can mixup WD jabs, uptilts, and WD grabs and usually get a grab or combo in. So Lui likes YS and FoD for the tech-chasing game, but not so much dreamland and PS. Luigi likes FD for untechable downsmash and sex kick combos, so your best bet is to stick around stadium and dreamland and be gay with lasers and upsmashes.

Off the side, you edgeguard Luigi better than he edgeguards you. Lightshield edgehog him whenever you can, and if he missiles onto the stage be quick and get that upsmash/upair in.

Also, tip of the night, the best way to throw Luigi is down.

My list:
FD - Disadvantage
FoD - Disadvantage
YS - Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield - Neutral
DL64 - Slight Advantage
PS - Advantage

Ed: video of Vists luigi for credibility purposes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSrCUmsEu8
All the matchup info I threw down on was to educate the public about the misconception that Luigi can't handle Fox's pressure game in tight quarters, and that for some reason you can't edgeguard luigi well (O-o)

 

[JFox]

So I want to move on from that matchup now. I know it's not the most accurate, but we need to keep things moving.

Fox Vs. DK

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Fountain Of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage

 

[SCOTU]

Now, i'm no expert at this matchup, but i'm guessing FD disad. for chainthrowing/ uair juggling/ monkey punch comboing? I always figured that yoshi's story was disadvantageous against stronger opponents, like DK, since one move puts you off stage. Stadium also seems like a good stage for lasering/ shine comboing, i don't see what's great about it for DK, but i've only played ppls DKs when they are just messing around (and not really knowing what they are doing), so my input is limited (to say the least).

 

[halfDemon]

I'd call the vs. DK list pretty accurate. No complaints here.

Scotu: DK has good room for UAir juggling between the two platforms, and camping is pretty easy. Also, the edge limits Fox's recovery.

 

[Oskurito]

I agree with FD being a disadvantage for fox since DK can combo him pretty well on that stage, but still don't see why PS is a slight disadvantage for fox... he can laser camp well there and also the ocational wall infinites may help him too, can you explain it indepth please?

 

[JFox]

Its just a nice stage for DK to combo you really easily, and the lack of a top platform gives DK percent/finishing combo options. If he grabs you under the platoform, he can just walk you to the middle and start a combo. Also uses the wide walls to his superior recovery. But mainly the combo'ing.

 

[JFox]

OMG no one is contributing to this thread anymore. It's obvious that people aren't familiar enough with low tier matchups to continue to contribute. I'm going to leave out Roy, and so that is it for neutral stages. I'm going to take a short break to ponder things, and than start discussing counter pick stages for and against fox, starting back at the top with Falco.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

don't leave out Roy. THE PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW!

We must finish what we started. Or the lowtier lovers willl be up our bumcrackz. not like they're not already, for using fox lol.

I agree with FD, what more do you want? SERIOUSLY. and DL isn't a fox advantage. I don't get it... small stage is good for DK? but big stages good for DK TOO? lolz DK is too good? Fox rules where he has enough space, against DK. getting up+b'd out of everything is no fun, it's like fighting a Bowser.

have we not agreed with DK? Cuz i know some of the low tier matches. HAVE WE EVEN DONE PIKACHU? I secondary pikachu!

Let us continue.

 

[SCOTU]

I hope we finish as much of this by wednesday, so i can take all this info to FC. (are we not covering the bottom tier?)

Edit: if it wasn't clear, i'd like to start back at the top w/ counterpick stages asap.

 

[JFox]

Fire, you aren't making ANY sense. I have DL as a DK advantage, not Fox.


Lets finish Roy, and than we will go to counter pick stages.

Fox Vs. Roy

Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Yoshi's Story- Slight Disadvantage
Fountain Of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Slight Disadvantage

here we go. Basically Fox likes big stages. Since Roy has ABSOLUTELY ZERO approach, he is forced to DD camp you, and than **** you with grabs and tech chases. Solution- laser camp. DL and Yoshi is sorta similar. DL is good for fox cuz u can laser camp, but bad because of its size, and vice versa. Fox likes FD, but Roy likes it more just cuz of the CG. FoD is just small, PS is big, and BF is neutral.

 

[SCOTU]

I'd say DL is slight advantage since it's practically THE ideal stage for laser camping in this matchup, and YS is (slight) disadvantage since roy's got the killin power here & fox has no room to run.

 

[JFox]

Yeah I was thinkin the same, Scotu. But I wasn't sure if the low/high ceilings made up for those advantages/disadvantages.

 

[SCOTU]

Well, Roy's gonna have a tough time killing over the boundaries anyway, and fox doesn't need to kill over the side boundary (because roy can't recover to well), so that's advantageous for fox, and the high celing? just wait a few more %....

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

lol good roys find ways of comboing into fsmashes. we're talking about ULTIMATE HIGH LEVEL, right? but i agree with those choices nontheless, because ULTIMATE HIGH LEVEL pros also find ways of bairing Roy.

and i wasn't arguing with you, jfox, it was with another naysayer. if you realize that, then you'll see my post makes perfect sense, and is rather entertaining WITH THE CAPITALS.

Roy doesn't mind PS, I think. although Fox has laser camping, Roy's edgeguarding against Fox (one of his only lucky breaks), and the fact that there are only 2 platforms on a big stage (roy still gets some chainthrowing in >.> ) ensure that this isn't a Fox advantage - I'd say neutral at best.

 

[JFox]

Scotu, I think you are right on DL and YS. I changed them.

Fire: I still don't get your DK post, but w/e.

How is roy's edgegaurding better on PS than other stages? Just cuz he can't wall ride much? I think that is a silly disadvantage that rarely affects the match. And I refuse to consider two throws a chainthrow. I mean, he doesn't get any more chainthrowing here than on any other stage with platforms, since the top platform is always to high to help fox anyway. (except at high percentages where Roy can't regrab fox anyway.)

Ok, I'm done wait. Let's start counter pick stages.

 

[JFox]

Attention!: We are now moving on to counter pick stages. Here is how I would like things to go:

I will announce the current matchup. Once I do, other board members are free to bring up any stage that is not a neutral stage, and is not a banned stage. Stages should be those which players feel are strong for Fox or his opponent.(stages are either an advantage, strong advantage, disadvantage, or strong disadvantage) Than the person that brings that stage into question will say why they feel that stage is strong or weak for Fox, and also what rating they feel it deserves. The rest of us will comment on the stage, and say what rating they give it, and than I will finally give it a rating based on the comments shared.

 

[SCOTU]

Japes & DK64 = disadvantageous for fox against falco.
High ceilings for both, japes is a great laser stage for falco, the central platform helps his combos, while break some of fox's.
at DK64, the platforms can ruin a bunch of uthrow combos, and the barrel can save falco from some shine spike/ give him added recovery.

 

[JFox]

Wow, I disagree with you to an extreme amount about Japes, and I also disagree with DK 64.

Japes is REALLY easy to gimp falco. Just cuz you have some laser tricks doesn't automatically give falco the edge. Most of his tricks are just ledgehop double lasers, and forward B's around the stage. Any fox that catches on will have no problem.

If Fox shines falco on the middle platform it often knocks falco under the stage, causing falco to double jump into a platform, than get shine spiked.


DK 64's height really doesn't hurt Fox much. It might be a slight advantage for falco, but its certainly not a counterpick IMO. Fox can save himself via barrel as much if not more than falco. And I have never seen anyone save themselves from a shinespike using the barrel...falco flies downward after a shinespike.

Fox can recover on DK 64 much easier than most stages because he can Up B through the bottom of the stage. It makes it really hard to edgegaurd Fox.