Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[JFox]

Please keep in mind I am rating the stage without bias toward the match up. Fox could completely counter a character, but if its a neutral stage that doesn't give a character an advantage MORE SO than what already exists, that its considered neutral.

With this said, I do not believe that any of the neutral stages give Fox anything more than a slight advantage on Sheik. Sheik is still very capable of beating Fox on FD and PS, although it is a bit harder than on say Dreamland. But its not as if the stage largely changes the matchup, like Jungle Japes.

I will consider changing the system, but for now we are only considering the neutral stages, so I will hold off for a bit.

 

[Omni]

I do a lot of Fox vs. Sheik. Here's my theory.

Final Destination - Even.
Fox:
1. Can up-throw --> up-air without platform interruption.
2. Has plenty of space to laser camp.
3. Edgeguards Sheik pretty well due to lack of platforms.

Sheik:
1. Dash attack leaves Fox WIDE open for a free hit. No escape at most %'s.
2. Has an easier time creating space for a full-needle hit (almost 20% damage)
3. Has a really harsh tech-chase game against Fox after d-throw.

Shiek can hold her own against Fox even with his speed if she positions herself correctly. On any stage, Sheik can **** Fox at low %'s if she gets him off the ledge so the large stage is a plus for Fox. I've played this match-up so many times and man, it can go anyway depending on the person's performance.


Pokemon Stadium - Fox's Advantage
Fox:
1. Has many good positions to be in when the stage changes. Stage changes usually require a vertical kill which Fox has the advantage in.
2. When Fox is recovering, if he does not aim for the ledge he has platforms, windmills, and even another ledge on a mountain to escape to when landing. Sheik does as well, however the lag from her up+b makes it easier to punish.
3. MANY places where he can drillkick infinite including four+ places around the mountain, three areas around the tree, and that weird **** on the right side when the mountain stage is in place.

Sheik:
1. Can escape up-throw --> up-air combos better depending on the level of the stage.
2. Can find places to "hide" in order to charge needles.

Fox's best stage in my opinion. Sheik can have an awkard time trying to recover from the stage. This isn't to say that Sheik can't beat Fox here, but yeah. W/e. Better stage for Fox.

Battlefield - Sheik's Advantage

I won't do a huge synposis. Sheik edgeguards REALLY well here since Fox can't stage climb his up+b. The small stage makes it easier for Sheik to toss Fox off the ledge. Ultimately, Sheik's best advantage over Fox is her edgeguard. This is the perfect place for her to use it. Any advantage Fox may have over Sheik here simply doesn't match Sheik's.

Yoshi's Island - Fox's Advantage

Yeah, **** that format I had earlier. I'm at work and takes too long. The super low ceiling is just way too good for Fox. Basically, Sheik's ultimate advantage on this stage is the small playing level which = edgeguarding, but Fox can get interference with the help of Shy Guys, a cloud, and the platforms. The super low ceiling makes it a lot easier to kill Sheik, which in my opinion, overshadows Sheik's advantage.

Dream Land - Even.

Whoever plays better wins here. Neither of the two have any real major advantage on this stage.

Fountain of Dreams - Sheik's Advantage.

The moving platforms benefit Sheik the most. A dash attack onto one of these suckers has a good chance of being followed with a slap which has a good chance of pushing Fox off the stage which has a good chance of Fox dying. The fact that the stage is largest underneath it makes it perfect for Sheik to get gimpy kills. Fox can up-smash from underneath ledges, and the low ceiling is a plus buuuuuuut I still think Shiek's got it better here.

 

[MASAHIROx]

hey im a link main but i counter fox all the time and have been playing him a lot more overall recently so here is my question:

is brinstar a good level to counter pick?

if so, who does fox do well against here?

sorry i know this this kind of backwards to the way the discussion is set up but watever...

 

[JFox]

Brinstar is one of the worst stages in the game for Fox. So if you are talking about playing against a Fox, than yes its a good stage. If you are talking about playing Fox here, than its a very bad decision.

I'd like to move along now to the Fox vs Marth matchup. I feel the Fox v Sheik is pretty darn accurate by now. Fox vs Marth-

Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage

This is just a quick list. Please feel free to contribute.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Mmm.. why the slight disadvantage on FoD? Any particular reason?

 

[Dogysamich]

hey im a link main but i counter fox all the time and have been playing him a lot more overall recently so here is my question:

is brinstar a good level to counter pick?

if so, who does fox do well against here?

sorry i know this this kind of backwards to the way the discussion is set up but watever...

Hi im a random guy who just clicked this thread cause it was the last one posted on, and I can safely tell you that FFers get ***** on brinstar.

You'll get Lava combo'd. D:

 

[kerploplesteesh]

It's hot nacho cheese, not lava. =D

 

[SCOTU]

I think fox has a slight advantage over marth at dreamland, he has lots of room to run around and laser, marth's chainthrows are limited at best, and marth's platform use is much less than most stages, so the platforms are more safe.

 

[RedYoshi92]

If it is vs.Marth,then pick platform stages like dreamland that can give you a platform to DI at.

 

[SCOTU]

battlefield isn't the best choice for platforms, marth can **** you on those if you stay for too long, like long enough to tech. dreamland's platforms are much safer though.

 

[RedYoshi92]

I fixed my post scotu.

 

[SCOTU]

I'm also not convinced FD is a complete disadvantage, i know marth can chainthrow fox to death (or close) and their aren't platforms to continue uair combos, but it's easier to juggle, and laser. This stage is definately at least a slight disadvantage for fox, but i'm not convinced it's a full disadvantage.

 

[halfDemon]

Dreamland should be a slight advantage. Fox has plenty of room to maneuver around Marth and get those precious lasers out. And Marth's platform game is greatly hindered here because of the height of the platforms allowing Fox to affectively use them to move around and stall a little bit.

Final Destination should be a slight disadvantage. It's not a full-out disadvantage because juggling here is quite easy as there are no platforms for Marth to DI to and tech, although the same goes for Marth. Laser camping here is pretty affective as the stage is large. Also, riding up the wall to recover is much more helpful if you can edge/walltech. Marth gets mean grabs and juggles though, so it's still a slight disadantage.

 

[JFox]

Yeah, Dreamland should definitely be a slight advantage. I wasn't really thinking on that one. I've already made the appropriate changes.

FoD, might be even. I figure I just don't like that it messes up your Shffl's, but it also does mess up Marth sometimes too. I'd like a little more input on this match from others.

However, I can't agree with those who are saying that FD is a slight disadvantage. Remember, there are three levels- slight disadvantage, disadvantage, and strong disadvantage. I won't give it a strong, but I feel its definitely a disadvantage. I'm pretty sure no one can really say that if it was between FD and Battlefield, that you would say they are equal, which would essentially be what you are doing if you put it at only a slight disadvantage.

Keep in my we are talking about highest level of play. Therefore it is necessary to believe that Marth can 0-death you(and there is NOTHING you can do to get out) every time you get grabbed on FD, because this is exactly what m2k does. To say that one grab kills you on a stage simply cannot be a slight advantage.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Therefore it is necessary to believe that Marth can 0-death you(and there is NOTHING you can do to get out) every time you get grabbed on FD, because this is exactly what m2k does. To say that one grab kills you on a stage simply cannot be a slight advantage.

Lol, dang, I lack. I haven't seen this video where m2k 0-deaths top-level players with chaingrabs. Link me?

I was under the impression that Fox could get out of chaingrabs at around 30%, if timed right.

Isn't it the case that at 30%, Marth has to DD-grab if Fox doesn't DI? Isn't it also true that at this damage, Fox can shine and hit the Marth before he is grabbed once more? I've also seen Fox get out with a simple shine at around 20%, although I realize that this will likely be retaliated with "Marth's not doing it right". Also, at around 40-60, if DI'd, Marth will often get a tipper off. At the same damage, if not DI'd, Marth will often get a tipper off by turning around and then fsmash. However, at this damage, Fox can easily DI to survive the hit... if being chainthrown from the middle of the stage, Fox can probably get back on the stage after the tipper without using his up+b.

I recall during M2K marth vs PC falco , PC got out of chainthrows quite often.

On FD, Marth has to make the approach just about all the time. It isn't fun to be getting hit by lasers all the time. Getting shine-grabbed-uair isn't fun either. It just so happens that FD is big enough and without platforms; this facilitates this combo against Marth.

Maybe i'm just being silly, though.

 

[JFox]

You aren't being silly, you are just not as knowledgable about the new m2k death grab because you don't live in the same region as m2k. (I live in his state)

I have talked to him about his chaingrab. I have asked other pros about his chaingrab, including PC. M2k and the rest will all tell you it is inescapable. M2k pivot grabs after 25% if you stop DI'ing. If you don't DI the utilt, he SHffls Uairs, you do DI the Utilt, he will continue to turn around utilt combo. Once you are off the stage, you are dead 95% of the time(even ask pros lol). He usually can ken combo you, but if you DI right(which is hard), he can only fair/nair you off, and than edgeguard.

I'll try to find you a good video, but it wont be too easy. Most people ban FD on m2k(because its easily his best stage). Also he doesn't like people putting any videos of his marth up, because he doesnt want people stealing his techniques. So there is very limited footage.

 

[SCOTU]

Fogot about the strong disadvantage part, yeah, i can see FD as a disadvantage.

 

[Omni]

Pokemon Stadium - Even
Dreamland - Fox's Advantage
Yoshi's Story - Marth's Advantage
Fountain of Dreams - Marth's Advantage
Battlefield- Marth's Advantage
Final Destination- Marth's Advantage


I don't see any real disadvantage for Marth on Pokemon Stadium. On most of the stage changes, he can up-tilt/f-smash through platforms. They're definitely not as safe as Dreamland.

Yoshi's is all Marth's. Great stage for Marth to gimp Fox since the floor is so low. Marth destroys on those platforms. Low ceiling for Fox doesn't seem to be an equal advantage.

 

[halfDemon]

I forgot about there being strong advantages as well, my bad.

Pokemon Stadium - Even
Dreamland - Fox's Advantage
Yoshi's Story - Marth's Advantage
Fountain of Dreams - Marth's Advantage
Battlefield- Marth's Advantage
Final Destination- Marth's Advantage


I don't see any real disadvantage for Marth on Pokemon Stadium. On most of the stage changes, he can up-tilt/f-smash through platforms. They're definitely not as safe as Dreamland.

Yoshi's is all Marth's. Great stage for Marth to gimp Fox since the floor is so low. Marth destroys on those platforms. Low ceiling for Fox doesn't seem to be an equal advantage.

Pokemon Stadium is big. Laser camping is pretty easy, as well as juggling Marth. Fox can use the platforms to get out of Marth's juggling and CTs.

Fox kills on YS just as much as Marth. Sure, a tipper from Marth means death for the furry pilot, but Fox's USmash and UAir are hella deadly on YS because of the low cieling. Also, shinespiking and edgeguarding are easy because YS doesn't go that far down.

 

[JFox]

I think Fox vs Marth on Yoshi's Story is very similar to FD for Fox vs Falco, but they still end up pretty even. They both have many advantages to speak of. First off, their recoveries are hindered by the side wall. Second, they both get gimped quickly because the stage is so small. Third, the platforms are esay to move around on for fox, but then again they also help marth because of their low height. (the top one is in shffl'ed uair range for marth)

Fox has a hindered laser game. Marth has trouble sweetspotting the ledge.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Marth gets shined harder, his recovery becomes predictible. >.>
Marth gets uthrown uair, and dies faster.

On Pokemon Stadium, there is a lowish ceiling and lotsa room for Fox. Harder for marth to recover, too, due to weird sidewall.

 

[JFox]

Are we satisfied than with the Fox vs Marth stages? Can we move on to Fox vs Peach?

 

[SCOTU]

yeah, i'd say YS is even (maybe, MAYBE, slightly in marth's favor), and PS is in favor of fox (good lasering, very easy, VERY EASY juggling, i've juggled marths from 0-death several times on PS neutral (its pretty easy on YS too, but no room to laser, escape marth's range.)

 

[JFox]

How is it you manage to juggle a Marth 0-death on any stage? That sounds like you are either exaggerating, or the Marths you play don't know what the word DI means. Seriously, after the first or second Uair, its not even a combo anymore.

Anyway, I think we have Fox vs Marth pretty much nailed down. Lets begin discussing Fox vs Peach.

Fox Vs. Peach

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams-Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage

I put down YS as an advantage because the ceilings and walls make it so **** easy to kill off peach. You will notice however that Dreamland is only a slight disadvantage. I feel that because Fox's laser game is so strong here it somewhat makes up for the fact that the ceiling is so far away, at least enough for it to be a slight disadvantage rather than a full disadvantage.

FD- Simple. Peach can CG fox 30-death. The only thing fox can do is DI off the stage and put himself in a dangerous position.

Stadium- Its ceiling is somewhat low, it is large so it allows fox to stay on the level and out of edgegaurds, and he can camp lasers. Also the lack of a top platform actually helps fox somewhat because it makes it hard for Peach to get back on the ground. When peach is floating around above you, she can usually use the top platform as a safe haven since its hard for Fox to cover along with the rest of the stage. But without a top platform, he can Uair around the entire stage in a single jump'd Uair, making it harder for Peach to get down. She usually has to resort to the ledge, which is an uncomfortable spot for her since her ledgehop sucks.

FoD- 2 reasons. Fox hates FoD. Peach loves it. She dsmashes on the platforms while they are low and Fox eats 40%. This is really enough reason on its own.

OK. Theres my list, along with some reasoning. Lets discuss.

 

[halfDemon]

I agree about YS.

DL should be a regular disadvantage, not strong, but not slight. The stage really emphasizes Peach's recovery and edgeguarding over Fox's. The fact that Fox can't kill Peach horizontally and it takes him an unusually long time vertically is a big problem.

FD is agreement as well.

FoD and PS are agreement as well.

 

[SCOTU]

i disagree w/ the FD assesment, it isn't 0-death (0-100 + nair) it isn't too hard to postion yourself in a way to not get killed by the chianthrow, you can even DI to the right of the stage, but then left when they try to nair (whatever). FD is also one of the best levels to shine combo peach on. at best (or worst i should say) it's a slight disadvantage. I'd say neutral though.

about Marth: i didn't say it was a combo, i said it was a juggle.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

scotu has spoken.

notice, though, scotu, that few top level smashers use drillshine/waveshine combos a lot. Most of the time, they prefer to grab after shining, then uthrow uair.

 

[SCOTU]

this is true, but they could. and note that on FD, the uthrow>uair is much harder to escape than a stage w/ platforms.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I'd agree with that. By the way, I think we should standardize a way of knowing when to go to the next character.

saying it 'feels about right' might not be the best way. Maybe after 1/2 days of discussing? after 5 different people have given their input? Je ne sais pas. But I find that it might be a better idea.

 

[JFox]

i like feeling it out. once people are in agreement with stages, that is what rectifies our changing. its not like we cant go back if people have more to say, its just the central discussion has moved on. i dont want to make up rules that would really only hurt the input that could potentially be left to share.

I think I agree on the dreamland thing half demon, good call.

But I have to say no way to FD.

Many Peachs counter pick FD, while many fox's ban it. You can definitely go 30 to death, even with good DI, because Peach simply edgegaurds Fox's recovery too good for any hope of coming back. That DI left and than right thing doesnt mack sense by the way. You would probably wanna DI the Nair up, not towards the stage, because you always want to DI perpendicularly to a move's trajectory.

Shine combos work on any stage that is flat. The platforms do not interrupt shine combos, nor are shine combos even regularly used. Platforms also don't hurt the Uthrow Uair very much. A character has to begin falling before they can tech, and Peach doesn't begin falling before the Uair has already hit. So it may hurt juggling, but it doesnt effect the Uthrow Uair combo, which is often used to kill more than rack on percentage.

 

[technomancer]

He means to DI close to the side, and the DI behind peach so it's harder to Nair you off, which definately doesn't work.

Anyway, I think FD is only a slight disadvantage for Fox, but it does require a change in style to not be so aggressive, with more spam, and just solid waveshine Uthrow Uair or Waveshine Usmash to keep her airborne. FH Nairs also **** this stage, and Peach doesn't have a great anti-air that will beat it out consistantly.

 

[JFox]

Full hop nairs (or Shffl'd nairs) are countered CC Dsmash. The only thing that doesn't get CC dsmash'd is a dair shine(must be Lcancelled) and uair after 30 percent or so. The rest of fox's aerials will all be CC Dsmashed.

 

[SCOTU]

actully i was saying to direct the chaingrab in one direction, then di toward the center at the end of the cg and DI the nair up& towards. you don't even leave the stage sometimes.

Edit: whatever, i don't really care. i don't have to believe any of this list anyway, and arguing w/ jfox is like throwing a ball at a wall. you can throw it so hard the ball will break, but he'll keep trying to bounce it back. I just don't really want to argue. I was just offering input.

 

[JFox]

If you have reasonable points, I will take them into consideration. However, these stages are debates for a reason. And your arguments have been sub-par, mostly because you seem to lack high level play. You have a decent fox, but it is obvious you don't have knowledge of the game.

DI works like this- If you DI up, you will go up and away instead of just away from the stage. What you suggested was that you DI away from the stage, and than towards the stage. This has virtually no effect on your trajectory. If you DI up, it will help a bit, but not really enough to save you at higher percentages.

See you are assuming that Peach is going to Nair you at lower percents, maybe 50-70%. However, Peach can CG you much further that 100, and than nair you so that your DI isn't enough to save you. You can take a risk and DI off the stage asap, but the problem with this is it gives Peach an easy Dsmash and stagespike you, or just hit you off and edgegaurd. Its really not a fun CG to get cought in and only works on stages without platforms. This is why many people ban FD.

Now if you have a real argument to what I've just said, bring it up, and I will consider it. However, don't think you can just say something and I will take your faulty opinion to heart and change my mind. Don't whine and just say "JFox won't listen to me". There are many people that are going to say opposing things, and you need to have a strong point for your opinion to be worth anything.

Does anyone else feel that I am being at all unreasonable?

 

[SCOTU]

No, you're not being unreasonable, i just don't think you're getting what i'm saying, maybe i'm saying it in a hard to understand way. Allow me to try to clarify. I was talking about DIing the throws of a cg. DI them to the side. when you get to a high %, DI a bit towards the stage (on the throw) so that when you get hit by a following move, you'll be hit toward the remainder of the stage. DI said following hit up and towards the hitter. When DI'ed up and towards, peach's nair almost never kills fox at just over 100%, especially if you've been moving the cg towards one side, and then back the other way at the last minute. That's all i'm saying. I wish i had a vid to show you what i'm talking about, because you don't seem to see what i'm saying. DI'ing the throws to the sides, DIing the nair/ bair up&towards.

 

[LaserBust]

Yea I c wut yur saying.. Ex. Peach starts CG at right of FD > Fox DI to the left of the stage to make Peach gradualy move more and more left > High % at this point > Fox at last minute DI towards right and up (now that fox has all that stage to fly over) giving the fox a better chance at being able to recover.. or atleast not being KOd instantly. The only promblem with this is that not every Peach is gonna be that predictable, the CG could end earlier/later than expected putting you in a even worse position.

Mhmm as far as the stages go..I agree with halfdemons DL opinion and... mhm.. I believe FD should be slight disadvantage just because with a mixup in strategy and smart play (some1 said laser spam I believe? sounds good..) the whole CG issue shouldn't be enuf to make it a full disadvatange, though I'll admit I havent played any talented Peaches so everyone eleses opinions and inputs could certainly change my mind..

 

[JFox]

Scotu here is the problem with that logic(now that i better understand what you are saying):

Peach can CG fox far past 100. So its not like just because you DI back to the other side of the stage at the last minute, that she won't just keep on regrabbing you. She can go even further past 100 if she feels that you aren't going to die from the Nair. So if she took you to say 140, it really doesn't matter anymore where you are on the stage.

You have to realize that by making FD only a slight disadvantage rather than a plain disadvantage is essentially saying that Fox is just as well off fighting peach on FD as he is at fighting her on Fountain of Dreams. Does anyone really feel like the two stages are an equal disadvantage to fox, or does anyone else besides me see that even not dying from Peach's cg doesn't really mean much when she can still give you 70%+ in one grab. I never said its a strong disadvantage, but you have to admit is must be at least more of one than FoD. Otherwise Peach would simply choose FoD as a counterpick since they are just as good as one another.

 

[LaserBust]

Ick.. I guess that makes since.

 

[technomancer]

I still think that you have to take into consideration that Fox's offensive/camping game is very strong against Peach on FD. Fox's combos are too good on this stage, his approaches are difficult for Peach to stop. I'd say it's equally bad as FoD, where your offensive game is cramped and Peach can edgeguard you sideways.

 

[SCOTU]

i usually have more trouble against peach on FoD, but whatever, alright, FD is disadvantage. (i thought fox could jump out at 100% of peach's cg, but whatever its just like an easier to combo marth in this situation, the good peach i normally play doesn't cg that much). I'm ready to move on to the next character.