Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[Omni]

Final Destination is a disadvantage. Period.

Being in Team Ben, I play Wife all the time there. One d-smash at 0% can easily bring you to 30% or close to it. Followed with a tech chase and a grab = chaingrab. DI'ing off the stage will leave you getting hit by n-air, and a good Peach won't let Fox back on.

The only times I beat him on FD is when I don't get grabbed. When I don't get grabbed, it's usually rapsies, but that's either because my Fox is doing very well or his Peach is off that day.

Pretty much, Fox has very little room for mistake on FD and we're all capable of making a mistake or simply being tricked into getting grabbed. The risk factor is just too large.

 

[j00t]

When you look plainly at what Fox and Peach can do against each other, Peach's advantages clearly outweigh Fox's advantages on FD. One grab from a Peach usually means death to Fox. What I usually do against a Peach on FD is play defensively until I find a a point where she can't defend herself (I.e. missed d-smash) and run in for an up-smash. I imagine that's the only thing you can do against a Peach, but I wouldn't know, considering i'm a major n00b at this game.

 

[ChaosKnight]

One dsmash should oly be 14% DI is hard for it but you can still get it off i know since i learned how to do it and i usually get it off because of Doll

 

[SCOTU]

yes, it's a disadvantage, we get it. just like marth. fox only has lasers and shine combos, peach can always 0-death you. what char is up next?

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Umm, can someone teach me how chaingrab Fox as peach to 140%? and then have the luxury of nairing them whenever I want?
kthxbye

 

[kerploplesteesh]

In my opinion fox has an advantage on FD vs peach. Even though he can be chain grabbed, he can combo with waveshines and spam shdl without being in range of a turnip. (okay, so maybe it should be worded for slight, slight disadvantage for fox on fd)

 

[JFox]

Umm, can someone teach me how chaingrab Fox as peach to 140%? and then have the luxury of nairing them whenever I want?
kthxbye

Yeah, I was kinda just guessing that the CG would be over around 140% if the opponent keeps full DI'ing. I do know that the Nair can combo from the Uthrow as high as 200%, but I'm sure the CG doesn't go as high as I had said. I was just guessing really.

Anyway, InfernoOmni, thank you for backing me up on the FD advantage for peach. I respect you knowledge of the game, and I'm glad to hear an opinion from someone with high level experience.


I guess we should move on to the next matchup, before scotu flips out on me. The next matchup is Fox vs Falcon. Here's what I've got to say:

Fox Vs. Falcon-


Fountain of Dream- Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Dreamland-Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Slight Disadvantage

Basically this matchup is really just a matter of size of the stage, and shouldn't take too long.

Falcon is like a bird, he must have room to spread his wings. Small stages cramp his style, and his combos. He loves FD because its big, easy to control, and most of all no platforms to mess up his combos. tech chase dair knee is a frequent favorite finisher for falcon. (lots o f's) the platforms make it easier for Fox to escape the combo by tech'ing, making Falcon miss an easy knee oppurtunity. Also Falcon's combo'ing and tech chase is so much nastier without platforms to get stuck on.

If anyone has played a Falcon at high level they will quickly learn that Falcon is incredible at DI'ing to stay alive. If you have bad DI with Falcon, you are missing out on a lot of potential recoveries.Dreamland has platforms, but its also nice and big, and its walls are very far out. Falcon, if hit in a diagonal angle(like for instance by ANY of fox's strong moves) can live well up into the 150%+ area. Although its usually an easy edgegaurd, once Falcon gets up high enough he can use his down B to help him get back onto the stage, and make it a little more tough to edgegaurd.


FoD is simply the anti-falcon. Really bad platforms block his shffl's. And the stage is very small. Nuff said.


OK, discuss!

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

okay, I'm willing to moving on to Falcon, but I play Fox vs Peach plenty, and ... I DI out of chainthrows and nair range WELL before 200%. Just in case someone newer to the game tries to do this... umm. Yeah. Don't. fthrow to death at this percentage. Lol, one could chainthrow to the side and fthrow death much earlier. =/ does the peach I play just suck?

 

[technomancer]

IMO, Yoshi's is even due to Fox's low weight. Don't underestimate how much of Fox's advantage in this matchup comes from his superiority off the edge, both recovering and edgeguarding.

 

[JFox]

Fire, I was simply talking about how easy it is to combo a uthrow to nair. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people use it at 200 lol.

Technomancer, Fox hits the wall from a knee he would be at so low an angle he wouldn't have been able to Up B back without being edgehogged anyways. So generally, the walls don't seem to hurt Fox as much as the would Falcon. Falcon can simply DI nair's and bairs, way up to the corner on most stages, and still Down B back to safety.

 

[Excel_Zero]

I agree with the Falcon stages. Just remember that he can be a threat on Yoshi's Story because the dair goes through the platform, and if you are below it may get you. Also remember the walls are pretty close so you can go out with a knee at early %.

Edit: Wait I am not sure if the Dair gets into Fox's height... dang if I had the game now I would check that... please someone else correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[SCOTU]

I like the falcon stage assesments, and i'm sorry about "flipping" on you, i was just debating, seeing as that's what this is. but you've got the falcon stages nailed down about right.

I'm guessing that FD and dreamland are better for falcon because he has a bunch of room to run around, techchase, and combo. If that's the case, at first, i was like: "so why not PS? It's a decent falcon level." but then i remember the stage transitions. yeah, it's pretty neutral. Not really sure on Battlefield, but neutral sounds fine.

 

[JFox]

The dair can hit fox through the platforms on 3 of the 6 neutral stages- FoD, Yoshi's, and Stadium.

However, as long as the Fox is wary of this, it really does little to the match up. Its somewhat insignificant, and really shouldn't be considered enough to make a difference.

When I first made the list, I was almost sure that people would argue that Falcon has a straight disadvantage on Yoshi's. The lack of room really hurts his game tremendously. I main Falcon, and I really hate that stage in general, but especially vs Fox.

He has no room to space his moves, or DD. He dies a low percents, and gets gimped LIKE CRAZY there more than anywhere else. The only reason I gave it only a slight advantage in Fox's favor is because of the idea that Fox dies a bit earlier, and tech chasing isn't so bad there. But other than that, I really don't see how Falcon survives on that stage.

 

[JFox]

Sorry for the delay. Lets move onto the next character, shall we?

Next is Fox Vs. Ice Climbers. Not gonna lie, I'm not so sure I have much knowledge on this one, so I'm gonna need a little help from you guys.

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams-Neutral
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Slight Disadvantage

FD- No Platforms. Personally, I feel that IC's hate platforms.

Battlefield- Its really hard to get around their edgegaurd without a feckin wall to ride. It makes your recovery much more predictable. Other than that its pretty neutral.

Dreamland- They just live too long. Also it's harder to shine spike here.

FoD- I don't really see any advantages for either side here.

PS- Although the walls are somewhat lacking, that seems to be made up for by the low ceiling, so I thought it sorta even.

Yoshi's- Low ceilings and walls make it easy to kill them. Shine spikes all day eff nana up hardcore, leaving popo a low tier character.

OK, All yours guys.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

FoD- I don't really see any advantages for either side here.

Agreed completely...

 

[Omni]

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams- Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Final Destination- Disadvantage

Any small stage puts IC's at a disadvantage. One shine from Fox on Battlefield, FoD, or YS's will almost always send Nana and Popo off the ledge. Thus one of them will not be able to grab the ledge and that increases the chances of gimping.

Since Yoshi's is small all-around, then if Fox gets chaingrabbed there's just no chance of survival.

Fountain of Dreams are great for Fox since the moving platforms cause Nana and Popo to desynch unfavorably. Fox ***** whenever he gets under the IC's on a platform.

Battlefield isn't TOO small. There's moving room for the IC's, but the platforms provide escape routes for Fox to run to. Platforms are a huge advantage for Fox.

Final Destination is bad. Just don't go there. It's difficult to get in and get out without getting grabbed; very difficult.

 

[JFox]

I kept FD at a slight disadvantage until I get a little more input, but I see what you are saying.

 

[SCOTU]

I don't really have any good experience with this matchup, but i don't really see why FoD is way good for fox. Could some one plz explain it to me?

 

[JFox]

Its just that IC's hate platforms, and on FoD the platforms suck real bad. For example, if you are trying to do the CG where Nana SH dairs, the platforms can get in the way and mess up ur CG. Or the platforms can just come up and separate your IC's unexpectedly, making Nana fall behind and suceptible to an attack. Or they can just get stuck on top of platforms and utilt/Usmashed for a stock.

 

[LaserBust]

I vote battlefield neutral. I mean I understand theres a limit in reovery and some space for IC's but those platforms truly help fox. As for as gettin back on the stage in the exchange for no-walled ledge, thers a platform you could fox illusion on or something. I guess I agree with everything else.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

how come you only have random stages? why dont you have brinstar and pokefloats because thats whats useful.

 

[LaserBust]

Cuz this is a neutral counter pick stage. All these stages r considered neutral.

 

[Gerbil]

Part of me seriously wants to jump on the gimp wagon for ICs. Theoretically I could land all stages being a disadvantage against ICs, seeing as how they truely only need one grab to win. I am not simply relating this to Wobbling, but there are other de-synching techniques that can easily beat a Fox such as d-throw dair, grab and repeat.

However, I do give Fox a better chance at success on the smaller stages seeing as how ICs are split up so easily by use of the shine, and no room to really run. My votes run like this.

Final Destination - Disadvantage

IC's can work Fox over quite easily, the wavedash distance and shine knocback distance keep Fox constantly on the run to keep up, resulting in fewer actual combos. IC's simply need one good grab (and there are multiple opportunities) to take a complete stock off.

Pokemon Stadium - Slight Disadvantage

IMO another stage similar to FD, simply because the majority of time it sticks with the nuetral portion of the stage. Granted the stage changes give fox platforms to work with to prevent being grabbed, but at the same time IC's can play a gimp camp method. In the end, it probably could go either way, but I still have Fox at disadvantage ever so slightly.

Dreamland 64 - Neutral

Nothing I can really give here. The wind prevents IC's from doing most infiinites for well, infinite amounts of time, and the platforms give Fox something to work with. However, the recoveries here... meh I can't be too judgemental as I personally hate this stage. So I leave it at neutral.

Yoshi's Story - Advantage

Small stage. Nowhere for IC's to run. No real chance at grabs, seeing as how the platforms are pretty close to the ground, Fox can move in and out extremely fast, and seperating the IC's becomes very easy here. Once one IC is off the stage, it's usually done here because Fox can land an easy shine spike seeing as how Nana (or Popo I guess for those that change colors) don't really do much in the air as far as attacking.

Fountain of Dreams - Advantage

Same situation as Yoshi's. Just a different look imo. Granted the platforms shift height, but the concept remains the same.

Batlefield - Neutral

I gave this neutral because there is some space to work with, and Fox players understand the meaning of "Getting Battlefielded". I can't really come up with a good discussion here either.

 

[SCOTU]

how come you only have random stages? why dont you have brinstar and pokefloats because thats whats useful.

I would like to make a list of those stages, starting with the random stages, and continuing as progress is made.

This should answer your question.

 

[JFox]

This should answer your question.

Thank you scotu. Some people need to learn to read.
I plan on going down the tier list with only neutral stages until I get to DK. After DK I plan on stopping because the rest of the low tiers, frankly, aren't worth my time. Once we are done with neutral stages for the characters up to DK, we will start back at the top and discuss counter picks, for and against fox.(This is what everyone has been waiting for, but you'll just have to wait a bit longer. Its best to start at the beginning and get the neutrals out of the way.)

Update- I've changed FD from slight to just plain disadvantage since that is the majorities opinion.(see that, its not impossible to sway me)

I think Fox vs IC's are good. Lets move on.

Fox Vs. Samus
(once again, I'm probably gonna need a good amount of help on this one)

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Fountain of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium-Neutral
Dreamland- Disadvantage

Remember, please back up your opinions with facts.

 

[technomancer]

I don't see how Fox has the advantage on Final Destination against Samus... infinites? Samus can basically DI out of the infinites from all but the most amazing technical whizzes. I like having some platforms above me to reduce the threat of the N-air.

It's not that I think it's a bad level, but you have FD listed as the best stage for this matchup bar none O-o

FoD to slight Disadvantage. That's Samus' hometown, IMO, her recovery there is brutal, Up-B lands perfectly on the top platform, and the low platforms allow her to uptilt edgeguard very effectively. The generally tighter sides allow her to pressure Fox off the edge with wavesmashes and tilts as well, which is very good for Samus.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I would say slight advantage on PS.
This is another big stage with lots of haxxy lasering possibilities, a low ceiling, and although unlikely to be successful, several places to infinite. Mind you samus is one of the characters who will be infinited.

From what I've seen, Samus likes to kill fox at lower damages, probably with edgeguarding. On this stage Fox can live a little longer, what with the walls to tech, the camping, etc. Samus tends not to kill fox upwards, so the low ceiling doesn't matter.

confirmation?

 

[SCOTU]

Hmmm.. i'd say that PS is a slight disadvantage. I've never played a terrific samus player, but here's what i can gather from watching matches, and reading the boards. Stadium is a very wide stage excellent for missile spamming (platforms are great for it) It'd be hard to actually get samus in a position to infinite her against the walls due to the screw attack (especially out of shield), you can't really just pillar her untill you get here w/ a shine. stadium also has decently wide sides, so you'd have to kill her upwards (the ceiling is only slightly shorter than FD). And i'm pretty sure that samus can do her fair bit of camping on transformations.

I think that FoD would also be neutral (while her recorvery is pretty good there, and the platforms are kinda nice for her, it's a rather small stage).

Not really sure which way battlefield goes, i don't really see any advantages/ disadvantages for either party here, so neutral sounds good.

Dreamland is definately "disadvantage" becuase it's like FD, but w/ missle platforms and really really big kill zones.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

mmm okay. but is killing her upwards really that hard? compared to killing her sideways?

I agree about the stage being good for missiles, but samus is a slow... mover, isn't she? Against faster characters like fox, are her projectiles that effective? I main Marth, and even having no projectiles of my own, on PS I have no problems with spamming Spamuses. I realize Fox doesn't have the option of swatting projectiles away, but he has the choice of both spamming back, and in a game of camping, Fox wins, does he not?

=) it sure is hard to get samus into infinite position, but it gives Fox control of those particular areas due to Samus' fear of getting hit by it.

Agree completely w/ FoD and DL statements. =D

 

[JFox]

Lets get more commenting on FD. I said it has a slight advantage for Fox because the lack of platforms gives Fox a very nice spam advantage. Samus can missile spam much nicer on stages with platforms by missile cancelling, going down from the platform, and than quickly doing another quick missle cancel. So she just goes up and down shooting missiles using the platforms.

Without those platforms, she has less options, and its really easy for Fox so full hop triple laser here. Fox's full hop nairs are also nice here because Samus usually tends to hide under the platforms and you can't get her with full hop attacks under their.

Over all, Fox just seems to control the stage nicely here IMO.

 

[SCOTU]

i like FD in general, it's really nice for waveshine combos that go on for a while, and nice for spamming lasers. only stage i don't like it for is against marth. reasons above apply to samus matchup too.

oh, the above retardedness comes from it being kinda late (and after work)

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

i agree with what you said, JFox. Let us keep in mind, however, that FD is a large stage, with large walls. Samus can recover from pretty much anywhere here, with several options. I don't think the being able to survive forever thing is quite enough, though... I'd still stick with Fox slight advantage.

 

[LaserBust]

I don't think the being able to survive forever thing is quite enough, though... I'd still stick with Fox slight advantage.

Agreed...

Ps: The 10 character thing is lame =[

 

[MASAHIROx]

QUICK RANDOM QUESTION!!!
where do you bring falcos? Mute? yoshi?

 

[SCOTU]

read the first post. while counterpicks stages aren't covered yet, i wouldn't really bring them to mute city... i'm not really sure, i just counterpick against falco whatever i'm feeling at the moment, and let them bring me to FD (where i crush them)

 

[Excel_Zero]

Fox Vs. Samus
(once again, I'm probably gonna need a good amount of help on this one)

Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Slight Advantage

Yoshi Story - In Yoshi's Fox has the advantage due to the low ceiling, but Samus has her tricks here. She can missile spam effortlessly and gimp fox because of the floor.

Final Destination - When I use Samus this is probably the worst stage because Samus depends a lot on platforms.

Fountain of Dreams - Samus recovery on this stage is sick.

Battlefield - Neutral. Remember Samus can grapple below stage and come back.

Pokemon Stadium - This stage is perfect for missile spamming with Samus. The platforms are a big help to her, so if you play her here be careful.

Dreamland - I know Samus can be a pain in the @$$ to kill here, but this stage is ideal for Fox since he has a lot of room and he can get that to his advantage.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

I'd put Advantage on Dreamland for Fox.


- Upsmash still kills her well due to floatiness
- She can missile with the platforms, but it's nothing compared to how Fox can use them
- Samus can be shinespiked on Dreamland

 

[God of shiek]

i really think that faco can **** fox on final destination plus falco shine combos><

 

[SCOTU]

we're done discussing the falco matchup

 

[JFox]

I'd put Advantage on Dreamland for Fox.


- Upsmash still kills her well due to floatiness
- She can missile with the platforms, but it's nothing compared to how Fox can use them
- Samus can be shinespiked on Dreamland

Your reasons don't seem to have anything to do with the stage. Of course Upsmash still kills her, but it does take a good deal more percent here than on somewhere like Battlefield. If you were to consider battlefield perfectly neutral, than Dreamland would have to be a disadvantage compared to battlefield, because it takes longer to kill.

Platforms are essential to Samus' missile game. Drop down from a platform, missle cancel, wait for a sheild to pop up and run in with a grab. That is just one example of how Samus uses missles to her advantage, and without a platform thats really not possible. And what is it about platforms that helps Fox at all? All it does is get in the way of his lasers and full hop aerials.

Samus can be shine spiked anywhere. Why would dreamland make it any easier for Fox to shinespike her? That makes no sense...



I still feel that Pokemon Stadium seems to be neutral. I mean she may have to advantage while the stage is normal, but as soon as it changes, it almost always is better for Fox. The windmill is good for fox's recovery, the walls are great for camping, and Fox has a better camping game than samus behind walls.