Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[JFox]

Part 1:There are stages that are generally good and bad for all characters, mainly due to the proportions of the stage, and how it benefits that particular character. Fox generally likes stages with low ceilings, and dislikes big stages like DL 64. But generally means most of the time.

It does not mean that this is true to every fox match up. There are stages that are good for fox in some matches, and bad for him in others. I would like to make a list of those stages, starting with the random stages, and continuing as progress is made. Stages will be discussed in the order of importance; in other words, the tier list. Starting with Falco and simply going down the current tier list until we get to the bottom. Fox vs said character will either have an advantage, slight advantage, neutral, slight advantage, or disadvantage listed stages. As Fox players we are concerned with how Fox fares in these matches, so all advantage/disadvantage will be relative to Fox.(So if Fox has the advantage against Peach it is listed as "advantage" because it is in Fox's advantage. If Peach has the advantage, it is listed as "Disadvantage" because it is in Fox's disadvantage.

*Fox's Counter Pick Stages, for or against him will be listed as "Strong Advantage" or "Strong Disadvantage"

Note: Just because a character counters another character does not mean that the stage will list an advantage in either characters favor. Stages will only give advantage to a matchup if it tips advantage in one characters favor MORE SO than without said stage.(For Example- Fox counters Kirby, but this does not mean that on Dreamland 64 Fox is given the advantage on said stage. The match may be a counter, but the stage helps Kirby more than a neutral stage, and so Kirby is given advantage here.)

Part 2:
Attention!: We are now moving on to counter pick stages. Here is how I would like things to go:

I will announce the current matchup. Once I do, other board members are free to bring up any stage that is not a neutral stage, and is not a banned stage. Stages should be those which players feel are strong for Fox or his opponent.(stages are either an advantage, strong advantage, disadvantage, or strong disadvantage) Than the person that brings that stage into question will say why they feel that stage is strong or weak for Fox, and also what rating they feel it deserves. The rest of us will comment on the stage, and say what rating they give it, and than I will finally give it a rating based on the comments shared.



Fox Counter Pick Stage List


Fox Vs. Falco

Neutral Stages:

Fountain of Dreams- Slight Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Final Destination- Neutral
Dreamland 64- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Disadvantage

Counter Picks:


Fox Vs. Sheik

Neutral Stages:

Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Neutral
Fountain Of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage

Counter Picks:


Fox Vs. Marth


Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Battlefield- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Peach


Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams-Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Falcon


Fountain of Dream- Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Dreamland-Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Slight Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Ice Climbers


Fountain Of Dreams- Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Battlefield- Neutral
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Samus


Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium-Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Doc/Mario


Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Neutral
Dreamland- Neutral
FoD- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Ganondorf


Final Destination-Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Dreamland- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi's Story- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Link


Yoshi's Story- Advantage
Final Destination- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Disdvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Luigi


Battlefield- Slight Advantage
Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Fountain of Dreams- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Donkey Kong

Yoshi's Story- Slight Advantage
Fountain Of Dreams- Neutral
Battlefield- Neutral
Pokemon Stadium- Slight Disadvantage
Dreamland- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Disadvantage


Fox Vs. Roy

Pokemon Stadium- Slight Advantage
Dreamland- Slight Advantage
Battlefield- Neutral
Yoshi's Story- Slight Disadvantage
Fountain Of Dreams- Slight Disadvantage
Final Destination- Slight Disadvantage


Current Discussion: (Counter Pick Stages) Fox Vs. Sheik


*Color Code- Yellow is Old, Blue is the Current debatable matchup.

 

[Ijuka]

Quite hard, because it depends on 1. How you play 2. How your opponent plays 3. Your playstyle 4. Their playstyle 5. What stages you are used to 6. What stages they are used to.

For example, DL64 is supposedly a bad stage for Fox, but I like the layout of the stage, so i tend to do better in Dl64 than in other stages, that are supposedly better for Fox.

 

[JFox]

Ijuka, although I understand what you are saying, this can be true to all theory matches. One can say Marth vs Falco is in Falco's advantage, but than you could say it depends on 1. How you play 2. How your opponent plays 3. Your playstyle(which is actually the same as number 1) 4. Their playstyle(which is the same as number 2)

But people constantly discuss theory smash. There are some stages that are simply better than others for specific reasons.

 

[RedYoshi92]

really does depend on which character your playing against.

 

[JFox]

Are you guys even paying attention at all?! You are to comment on the CURRENT opponent. CURRENTLY, the opponent in question is Falco.

What you are to be doing in this thread is discussing the 6 random stages, and how Fox does vs Falco on each of them. I rated them, now you critique my ratings. We keep going until its solid, than we move onto the next character.

So PLEASE say if you agree with the stage advantages listed for Fox Vs. Falco.

 

[vericz]

I play falco and my friend plays fox and We always play neutral stages. I think FD is neutral since each character has their advantage on it, fox with chaingrabs and uairs and falco with pillaring and combos.

Battlefield goes to falco because he combos fox easily on the platforms and fox may have trouble on it. Falco can easily maneuver around this stage with well time phantasms.

Pokestadium is also neutral for me.

Dreamland can go to fox since falco's recovery is worst than fox's. Although falco can combo well with these platforms.

FoD could go back and forth depending on play styles. Falco can combo fox easily while fox can get in a lot of uairs when the platforms are down.

Yoshis story also goes into neutral. Small stage yet equal for both.

As said before people have different playstyles but this is how the stages seem to me.

 

[JFox]

The only reason I feel that FoD gives Fox a slight advantage is simply because Falco's SHL game suffers a bit. Also I love the utilt's and Shffl Uairs while the platforms are down. It isn't big, but it gives a slight advantage IMO.

Dreamland is pretty neutral IMO. Both characters do well with room. People always say that the fact that its big helps fox because of his recovery, but it actually makes no difference. The increase in stage size doesn't help him survive AND THEN get onto the stage. If you are that far out that you are still not comin back.

I'm not sure why I dislike Pokemon Stadium, but I definitely struggle a bit more. I think its cuz Fox likes to play the platforms to help get him around the lasers, and without that top platform its hard to get around. So you can't go from platform to platform, and you still can't chainthrow. Oh and I also don't like fighting Falco when the stage changes. You are often forced to attack from above, which Falco's dair excells at. And its just hard to control the situation and keep the pressure on Falco while hes down. Oh and lastly, I don't like the lack of wall to hug on the sides of the stage. Those three reasons are enough for me to think Pokemon Stadium is a slight advantage.

With really good chaingrabbing, 0-death or close to it, I think FD is a slight advantage for Fox. But thats only if hes quite good at CG's, since Falco has a lot of control of Fox once Falco gets some distance and starts the laser spam. IMO slight advantage at higher level.


SO yeah, good to see someone contributed. I'd like to see a bit more input before we move onto Sheik.

 

[Micheloxx]

about dreamlan, i think it helps fox, not a lot but helps by beeing small, he can counter an attak and combo, shine, and the chicken is ready..

 

[JFox]

....were you on crack or somethink when you made that post? That made 0 sense lol

 

[Marth/Falco Pro]

^^^^^Lmao, I want some chicken

 

[FastFox]

I don't think Fox has a slight advantage over Falco on FD at all. Falco can SHL until next christmas as well as pull off hardcore shine combos.

Although, Fox can get his u-throw -> u-airs in, but it's more of a Falco Destination than somewhere for Fox.

 

[JFox]

Fastfox, although I see what you are saying, Fox really only needs one grab to do 70%+/death by chaingrabbing. And with good DI, you can get out of any combo after 50 or so.

At BEST I would say its neutral, but I definitely wouldn't give falco the advantage on it. Really all he has are the lasers on there, considering he can combo you on any stage. The lasers are always a problem, but Fox gets around them still on FD, and its very hard to avoid one grab.

 

[6th Sense]

I have to agree with Fastfox. A laser spamming Falco will control FD and, well, Fox's chaingrab is not THAT reliable against a Falco who DI's properly although it is possible to rack up some decent damage

 

[JFox]

Fox can, with decent chaingrabbing, go at least 0-50% on Falco with on grab. Than adding an u-tilt + Uair/Bair, you have another 25% or so. M2k can take you from 0-100+ or even death. Thats pretty dangerous considering all Fox has to do to get a grab is land a dair.

Anways, I'll change it to neutral just because people seem to disagree.

 

[technomancer]

Final Destination definately gives a MUCH bigger advantage to Fox than it does to Falco, Fox's chainthrow on Falco is beyond brutal. Platforms tend to prefer Falco's full jump/double jump pillar combos into smashes. Fox is also a much better horizontal combo'er than Falco and the average sides in this matchup only benifit Fox's recovery.

 

[JFox]

I think the Fox Vs. Falco matchups are pretty ok for now. I'd like to get this list moving, so onto bigger and better things.

We are now currently going to discuss the Fox vs Sheik matchup. You will find it in blue. The list is up, please critique. Also try to stage on topic. Don't go back to previous characters once we have moved on unless its really necessary.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Ugh, okay. Time to discuss my worthless input.

Final Destination: Despite Falco's ability to monstrously combo Fox here, I'd say it's about even. As previously stated, Fox has chainthrow combos and something of an advantage when it comes to edgegame. Fox can firefox at several angles against the stage in an attempt to sweetspot, or keep the opponent guessing, or setting up for a walltech. Of course, Falco can do the same, but as his up+b shoots him a considerably shorter distance, the element of surprise is much more limited. The question of chaingrabbing becomes non-existent once the opponent learns that Fox cannot chainthrow him if he's off the side of the stage. A spamming Falco will not conveniently stay in the middle of the stage shooting lasers, he'll be by the sides, waiting for an approach. and a good falco will get a little more than 50% off, i'm thinking more 65% off low damage combos. Once again, I call it equal.

Fountain of Dreams:I would agree with you and say that Fox has a slight advantage on FoD. The small stage and the platforms do not at all help out Falco. Although Falco can generally combo Fox in most stages, it is a little more limiting on this one. Note also that the sides [boundaries] of the stage are almost perfect for Fox. As in, when he's recovering, as long as he doesn't die, he will either JUST make it on top of the stage or JUST make it to the stage. The rounded stage allow for those Firefox options which I spoke of earlier. Falco likes space. He likes to jump around. He likes hitting opponents too far for them to recover back.

Dreamland64: Here is where I disagree most. I would say this is a Falco advantage. Falco has plenty of space to SHL here, he has plenty of space to combo Fox, he has much better edgeguarding opportunities due to the limited options of the recovering Fox (fox cannot firefox into the wall at many angles, because the stage cuts off weirdly near the bottom). Falco sucks at recovering anyway, so if he's knocked off too far, well then too bad. It is significantly easier for Falco to set up his edgeguard if Fox has to recover from farther away from the stage. The angle is easier to intercept. Oh yeah, Fox likes to kill upwards wherever he can, whenever he can. Even against Falco. On some stages Fox can uthrow-usmash falco for the kill. On Dreamland, falco can jump out of it before the usmash hits. If he tries to do this at lower damages, it won't kill him. High ceiling.

Yoshi's Story: I'mma say neutral, or Fox with slight advantage. Falco has little space here as well, but if he's aggressive enough, a strong hit here and there will kill falco. Edgeguarding here for both Fox or Falco is not very fun. Note that a dair at the edge will kill fox at 30 damage here, and that most of the time Falco can tech a shine. Fox rarely has time to get on the edge and drop-down shine, because if he sent Falco far enough to give himself this time, Falco's probably already dead. I'm not going to talk about Randall in this. Falco can actually be killed upwards quite well in this stage. It's not so much that Falco sucks here, it's more that Fox is good here.

Battlefield : Fox is at a disadvantage. Major gaying is going to happen on battlefield when it comes to edgeguarding. Your recovery is almost always predictable. Gay shine deaths will occur, and so will Falco's spikes and maybe even dsmashes. Falco outcombos Fox here by quite a bit. Falco can usually tech into most platforms and break Fox's combos. Don't even try with the uair chains, they can be DI'd by Falco. A falco may choose to end a combo here off the edge, and if the spike doesn't kill fox, the edgeguard will. Ledgehop bair, anyone? Fox has the same advantage, but Falco is always predictable, Fox isn't. And on this stage, he is.

Pokemon Stadium - Falco wins. Why? because in my humble opinion, this is a neutral a stage as they come. and Falco beats Fox until extremely high levels of gameplay. That is, top 4-10 players in the world. It's a nice big stage. Good combos for Falco. Semi-low ceiling, though, but i'm not sure if it's enough that Falco would be susceptible to Fox's vertical killers. The changes in Pokemon Stadium are still somewhat neutral, even the Fire part of it. Falco cannot be infinited (is that a word?!), and he can kick some pretty heavy bum in that pit. So can fox. So that levels out. PLEASE REMEMBER that in Pokemon Stadium, the stage is weird because there is a bump or something in the level, that fox can get stuck under when trying to sweetspot by wallhugging. This is totally not cool, I beat a friend in the last tournament because he got stuck under there twice in the same match. Of course, the logical alternative is to go directly for the edge. Not fun against a falco.

=D but i'm open for discussion! Let's talk, why not?

edit:// dang it, i'm 20 minutes too late oh noesz =[
edit://#2 dang it, I disagree with most of those sheik vs fox too. am i just a noob =O?

 

[6th Sense]

I change my mind the FD Fox Falco match up is equal. you persuaded me

 

[vericz]

Fox owns sheik thats my input for this one

 

[LaserBust]

Even though i disagreed on a few places vs. falco, i agree with all of those for sheik. Ill be playing a good sheik this week so mayb I can get back on this with some detail..

 

[JFox]

firexemblemxpryde your reasoning for fox's advantages on a stage were pretty inaccurate. A large part of your reasoning was based on angling Up B's under the stage. When playing Fox Vs Falco, you never want to Up B while under the stage. You want to stick with Up B above the stage to sweet spot the ledge, or you want to Forward B on. Up B under the stage means an extremely easy spike/Dsmash for Falco. Granted these can be teched, but that you usually end up Up B'ing after your tech(cuz very few people use the forward B, including pros) which is an easy Fsmash for Falco. I don't really care about your angle, and neither will the Falco. Fox's options are not that diverse once in the Up B under the stage. The difference between a strong angle and a weak angle can almost always be covered by a Sh Dair(no ff), no matter how severe the angle. Notice how little pros up B under the stage, and when they do, how often they will die. Fox's recovery is always trying to stay above the stage.

Fox vs Falco, you rarely need to kill off the top of the stage. Fox can never combo a Uthrow to Usmash that is strong enough to kill. When you hit and kill with that, its simply cuz your opponent didn't jump out in time. The only thing that combo's is Uthrow Uair, and often many people prefer to Bair the opponent off the stage because of Falco's lack of recovery. I would say this is really not a big deal in this matchup. It makes a difference, but not enough to give Falco an advantage. The SHL game is not any more dangerous here than say battlefield or PS. The only thing that makes them more dangerous for FD is that you can't rely on platforms to help avoid them. SHL spamming on dreamland just forces fox to move onto platforms, similar to most other stages.

FD- If you are Chainthrowing Falco and he DI's off the stage, you Fsmash him lol. Its probably worse to DI off the stage than it is to just take on the damage cuz after that Fsmash you are gonna get shine spiked or edgegaurded and die.

I'm pretty content with the list for Falco. Lets please move on to Sheik unless others feel it imperative to stay on Falco. We will go back if others are discontent with the Fox vs Falco list.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Haha no, it's not what's most important. However, Fox vs Falco has a lot to do with edgeguarding. They each have guaranteed combos against each other, and because of that, whatever happens first will happen as a result of a "mindgame". From then on, edgeguarding takes over. I do recall saying that killing Falco upwards is not the ideal way to kill him, but it's very plausible. On FD, Yoshi's, PKM Stadium, and all low-ceiling counterpicks, uthrow usmash will kill Falco if Fox gets a grab at around 95%.

You're right about the recovery, though. It's not fun to be below level with the stage. However, sometimes this can't be avoided. A bthrow from fox will force Falco to drop down, or get shined. A drillshine near the edge will place falco below the stage. I'm sure what you have in mind is when someone is hit from the (middle) of the stage, and they DI it to live. That's nice and dandy, but I find most of the edgeguarding in this particular match appears when the opponent is either JUST level (illusion), or below.

I actually find myself in the position of having to DI away from the stage against Fox's chainthrow, but when I'm right at the edge, i'm not stupid enough to DI away. I think the fsmash at the edge is quite well known, and as such it can be avoided. But whatever, I don't call the shots.

I have a little question, though. You say that character counters should not be taken into effect when deciding which character has the advantage. You give an example of Kirby and Fox, and how Kirby has the advantage on Dreamland through this reasoning. This sorta makes sense (for organization's sake), but don't you find that it may make more sense to still mark a stage as a disadvantage, but less so? Frankly, when I see Fox vs Kirby Dreamland - kirby has the advantage, my eyes widen. I'm thinking it may be more clear to have Kirby disadvantaged for most stages (unless kirby really does beat fox on a certain stage), and then rank the disadvantage. Maybe Fox has a Strong Advantage on Yoshi's story, and a Slight Advantage on Dreamland. Just a thought.

As well, don't some stages help to eliminate those things which might be the reason for a counter? For example, take Jigglypuff. From the conversation I hear, Fox counters Jiggz. A big part of this is uthrow uair, which ***** jiggz on most stages (if you're fast enough >.>). This is not so much the case in dreamland, where it becomes significantly harder to uthrow uair a jiggly to death. Just an example, just throwing this out there. If a stage -does- eliminate options that affect a counter, would it not make sense to include the character counter in the description?

It also doesn't help that Fox (semi?) counters quite a few characters. Lol.

and the walltech-> fwd+B is not too hard at all, we should totally all do it! =D

 

[SCOTU]

for Battlefield vs sheik: *slight* disadvantage?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4329319803606728790&q=52707+ssbm+scotu+vs+randizzle

 

[Zgetto]

for Battlefield vs sheik: *slight* disadvantage?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4329319803606728790&q=52707+ssbm+scotu+vs+randizzle

mmh i do believe fox's has a slight disdvantage there.
you mght have lost this match cause you got under the edges but doesnt happens all the matches.
if this didnt happend this match then the stage would be about even, but i do agree the edges are better for sheik then for fox.
so i would say: slight disadvantage

on the other hand, i think yosi story is a good fox stage against anyone(mainly cause its low and small and thats in fox advantage and the platforms are good for fox too)
so i would say here: slight advantage.

 

[JFox]

Wow...Sorry about the mix up Zghetto. I dunno what I was thinking when I put down slight disadvantage for fox. I agree that its a slight advantage due to the low ceiling.

Soctu, its definitely not a full advantage on Battlefield when you compare it to Brinstar or jungle japes. You got unlucky, those two deaths were really just flukes. Thats like saying that Fox is bad on green greens because you can get stuck under that stage too. Thats really not enough to be more than slight disadvantage.

firexemblemxpryde you are simply putting too much emphasis on the angles of your Up B. It makes so little difference on most stages other than battlefield, which we have already agreed on. As long as you have a wall to tech, thats all you really need because thats gonna be your only chance to get back on once you fall under the stage. Fox just doesnt go under the stage or he's pretty screwed, angles or not.

If you grab Falco at 95% and uthrow Usmash, he can jump out before the usmash hits. And most of the time platforms/DI are going to thwart this. Its not a very common tactic in upper level play for that reason. And although you sometimes get the occasional kill off the top, the difference between Dreamland's ceiling and a regular ceiling usually means only 15% or so, so its not impossible to kill Falco on this stage, and there are very easy ways to kill without hitting him up. Again, its just simply not enough.

If you DI off the stage, you will be Fsmashed. If you stop DI'ing when you get to the end, that doesn't stop them from CG'ing you. As soon as you DI off, you are Fsmashed. Not to mention going towards the edge of the stage and then not DI'ing is a bad idea. Uthrow shine to shinespikes are not the ideal situation for falco to get into.

I think you are failing to understand. The purpose of this list is not to analyze match ups. This is simply to rank stahes not matchups. It doesn't matter if Fox counters Kirby. Fox is at a disadvantage more so on Dreamland than he is on a neutral stage, such as Pokemon Stadium. It doesn't matter that Fox has the overall advantage. Fox has a disadvantage on dreamland more than PS, so the STAGE is listed as a slight disadvantage to Fox, even if overall Fox still has the advantage in the match.

Otherwise, taking into account characterr matchup it would look like this-
Fox vs Kirby-
Final Destination- Advantage
Pokemon Stadium- Advantage
Battlefield- Advantage
Fountain- Advantage
Yoshi's Story-Advantage
Dreamland-Slight Advantage

Notice how Yoshi's Story does not show more of an advantage using this system simply because the matchup is so unbalanced. This doesn't help anyone understand which stages are actually best for Fox against Kirby. So you must ignore the character matchup and simply rate the stage not the matchup.

Fox Vs. Shiek time. Ready go.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

hokay, I'll take your word for it =)

 

[SCOTU]

yeah, i know, that isn't an accurate representation of the matchup, that was just kinda funny and topical.

 

[JFox]

So I spoke with a very intelligent and knowledgable Falco/Fox player or mine, and he has somewhat influenced my idea of the stages in question. He was explaining to me how much of a disadvantage Falco is at when playing on a small stage. Not only does he lose the ability to move freely with lasers, but it is far easier for him to get knocked off the stage and than gimped by an edgeguard or shine spike. Also Yoshi's Story has platforms that make it slightly easier for Fox to escape Falco's combos. There is so little room between the platforms that Fox can always DI to a platform when the shine hits him.

For all of these reasons, plus some of the ones earlier discussed, I've decided to give Dreamland a slight disadvantage, and Yoshi's Story a slight advantage. If anyone disagrees with this, give me reasons why and I'll reconsider.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I agree >.>

Ugh, okay. Time to discuss my worthless input.
Dreamland64: Here is where I disagree most. I would say this is a Falco advantage.

Yoshi's Story: I'mma say neutral, or Fox with slight advantage.

I feel good about those Fox vs Sheik matchups. May I ask what thought process you're having when you talk about Pokemon Stadium? I mean, I agree with you completely, but what about that stage is it that you say neutral? I recall that against Falco, it was slight disadvantage. Thanks =)

Edit:// can i request that we do Fox vs Marth next? I'm a Marth/fox main, and I'm thinking I'll make the most sense when talking about this matchup =)

 

[JFox]

I plan on going right down the tier list. It just so happens that Marth is next on the tier list, so yes we can.

About Stadium- There is not much I can say works to either characters advantage or disadvantage here, so I made it neutral and decided it would change if anyone could point out anything that would warrant changing it in either character's favor. Its the only stage that when I fight Sheik on, I can go "w/e". All the rest I have an opinion about lol.

Stadium is probably the most neutral stage in the game except maybe when you are cought against a wall by a Fox's infinite shine. But against Falco its just very roomy for his SHL, and the lack of ability to go from one platform to the other makes Fox's platfrom game suffer. Against sheik this doesnt really hurt fox though since there are no lasers to avoid.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Good, that's exactly what I was thinking too. What actually surprises me about Pokemon Stadium is its roof.. it is actually semi-low. As in, if Fox grabs marth at 91% on PS, an Uthrow-Uair kills marth, even with DI. Lolz.

Are we all agreeing on Fox vs Sheik matchups? Have we had any disagreements at all?

 

[technomancer]

I think Shiek's best stage against Fox is Dreamland, second-best being Battlefield. Sheik can also do well on YS, but I think Fox's best shots are on Pokemon and FD because spam is so crucial to making sheik make bad decisions. Playing alot with Vist (the king of squander) basically makes me feel like the needle game is definately clutch for Sheik in this matchup, and Sheik's needles are made for battlefield.

Sheik of course does much better on stages that compliment her gay like Corneria, and DK64, so in general I think you should add to avoid stages like those, especially stages that prohibit spam.

Props for an awesome topic btw.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Mmm, yeah. Right now we're only discussing the 6 neutral stages, no?

Why is it you feel that Sheik's best stage against fox is DL as opposed to BF? She lives longer? Does not a smaller stage and close-together platforms allow for more platform punishment, more tech-punishing, and more CC opportunities? Generally speaking, isn't it true that the biggest thing that allows Sheik to fight back against Fox is a good edgeguard? BF was made for Sheik to edgeguard fox =P

 

[Silent Wolf]

Fox has the advantage on Stadium. IMO that's his best v Sheik. (Out of the neutrals)FD Fox also has a clear advantage. IMO not just slight.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

yeah, in YOUR opinion. But who cares about that, SW? No one, until you get me my siggy.
Joking.

I agree with the advantage on FD being strong. but why the biggest advantage on stadium?

 

[ChaosKnight]

i say stadium is best too since how fd is shaped she can ride the wall with her up b and such and in PS fox has many advantage stage changes and the edge is easier to stay on and wait for the up smash =p

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Mm, agreed, but isn't this even more severe on battlefield? and battlefield is awesome such that, if they agree to go over your head, they'll land on a platform, ready for an uair =P

 

[JFox]

Silent Wolf, as much as I value your opinion, you have yet to give any reasoning behind your opinions.

Can I really give FD a full advantage to Fox? Wouldn't you say stages like Green Greens are much stonger for Fox? I don't want to make it seem like two stages like FD and Green Greens are equal...perhaps I should add another level to rating these stages. Like "strong advantage" could go to something like Green Greens, while "strong disadvantage" would go to something like Brinstar Depths.(God how I curse that brinstar)

In any case, I'd still like to see some more reasoning behind the advantages of FD and PS. Also what is it about Dreamland that gives Sheik any advantage?

Edit: Oh and BTW Sheik "riding the wall" with her Up B does NOT give her any more height than simply using her up B away from the wall. This is a common misconception, and was proven false by SuperDoodleMan. So yeah, I can't consider that a reason to help Sheik in any way.

Edit2: Thanks for the props on the thread technomancer. And thank you to all who are contributing.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Your shine combos are essentially less effective on dreamland because they're most commonly associated with your vertical kill moves. Sheik is most easily killed on dreamland by getting her off -> edgeguarding. Still, that is a much more difficult route to take vs. vertical shine combo kills.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Sorry for not backing up m statements, I was too lazy at the time >_>
Here:
I wasn't really saying PS was his best overall, just out of the neutrals. Green greens..I don't think It gets better xD.
I think PS is his best neutral vs Sheik because he still has camping potential because of how long it is, and the fact that it has platforms. It changing just adds on to the camping greatness as well. It also has a short ceiling. Walls are quite wide. In the match up of Fox Vs Sheik, I think Fox has a clear advantage if played right too. The stage just promotes the reasoning for the match up being how it is. (Fox>Sheik)

FD, I fell Fox has a good advantage on because Sheik uses platforms too well for needle tricksies and pulling out aerials faster. Fox of course can use them well but it hurts Sheik more than him IMO. Its harder for her to get away. A lot of sheiks good combos on Space Animals come from platforms too. At low %'s on FD, shes doesn't have too much to work with.

Also, instead of having like 4 choices for the match up (ie advantage, slight advantage) you should rate them on a scal of 1-10 or something.