Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Pazx]

Stage. Striking.

I'm of the opinion legal until broken. Awarding awareness and stage usage should be encouraged. Part of the reason why Arena Ferox was fantastic in the 3DS version.

I'm fairly sure Ferox was only legal because it was the least ****ty stage aside from YIB, BF and FD. The walls put it in the same sort of category as Luigi's Mansion for the Wii U version.

While I agree in that edge guarding should be a factor in Smash, you could say the same thing about platforms and Final Destination. Or moving platforms in general. It makes a similar counterpicking strategy towards those that excel in that field vs those that don't. Plus, you have an interesting stage control dynamic where one character is on the brink of death and the other has a ton of room. (there are issues with this argument... -cough-backthrowOP-cough- but it's a cool one to think about) Also, the magnifying glass makes it difficult to gauge your positioning. (Is that a good thing? or a bad thing? I dunno... but it's a thing).

The fact that you're not 100% against them, and I think a lot of people aren't, warrant an orange? Out of the red stages, they kind of stick out as stages that have somewhat of a chance. Another note is that there are 11 stages with permanent walkoffs (if you include 75m which... that stage has other issues) out of the 46 stages (Now that I think about it... there were probably 45 stages and then they created big battlefield and miiverse) which makes a decent percentage.

yes pls. Let's add it to our random list for fun.

I think banning Wii Fit Studio (and Coliseum I guess) warrants banning Wooly World (walkoffs not as dramatic as WFS but gross air based game) and Mario Circuit U (removes an entire blast zone similar to WFS). Personally I'd prefer to see them all legal except for Mario Circuit due to hazards, as Wooly World can be the Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar of this game and WFS becomes the single perma-walkoff stage (I'm adamant that the counterpicking stage requires 2 bans minimum for this game however).

Also the magnifying glass issue is somewhat mitigated by the mirror on WFS.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To my complete lack of surprise, Skyloft is basically Wuhu Island with a Skyward Sword coat of paint. New research topic, go have a look. </plug>

@ Pazx I remember someone suggesting that Coliseum be considered over Wii Fit Studio as the best permanent walkoff stage since its platforms are anchored in the ground. The platforms in Wii Fit Studio can carry players off the top. Mario Galaxy is basically the same size as both but is completely static, so only the gravity is of any concern. (And IMO it's not a concern at all unless you're one of the few characters with a projectile that ignores the curvature.) Food for thought mostly, I'd like to see any or all of them legal but TBH I'm not optimistic.

 

[wildvine47]

To my complete lack of surprise, Skyloft is basically Wuhu Island with a Skyward Sword coat of paint. New research topic, go have a look. </plug>

Any chance you could look into Woolly World next? I know there's not a lot to it, but it's a very divisive stage, and info like the time between transformations, how the tilting works, and when exactly the edges on the clouds and rocket start/stop being grabbable during transformations, would probably help solidify some opinions on it.

I'm of the opinion that it should be legal until proven broken, but a lot of people seem to be nixing it just because they don't like it from what I've seen.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

Stage. Striking.

I'm of the opinion legal until broken. Awarding awareness and stage usage should be encouraged. Part of the reason why Arena Ferox was fantastic in the 3DS version.

Yes, I know what stage striking is. But I still stand with my opinion.

 

[madworlder]

Yes, I know what stage striking is. But I still stand with my opinion.

You mentioned that it was bad for Mac and Ganondorf, and that it was small. Is there any other reasons that you think it should be banned? Those two reasons alone are not really enough to warrant a ban, but are good reasons why it should be a counterpick.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

You mentioned that it was bad for Mac and Ganondorf, and that it was small. Is there any other reasons that you think it should be banned? Those two reasons alone are not really enough to warrant a ban, but are good reasons why it should be a counterpick.

Did you not read my comment? It has such small fighting space. It begins with walkoffs, then it transforms into a flying area with minimal space to fight on. Then the 3rd transformation goes back on the ground. But it still has walk offs


1st area: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/thumb/d/d1/SSBUWoollyWorldPotD.jpg/640px-SSBUWoollyWorldPotD.jpg

There are walk offs, other than that. It's ok. But it only lasts for about 15-20 seconds




2nd area: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/thumb....PNG/640px-SSB4U_Yoshi's_Woolly_World_Sky.PNG

Oh boy. Here we have my most hated part of the stage. The platforms have seesaw physics! Also there is barley any area to fight on.






3rd area: http://www.ssbwiki.com/File:SSB4U_Yoshi's_Woolly_World_Toy_Blocks.PNG


This is kinda like the first area.



Verdict: I think it definitely should be illegal, like I said. I'm all for a bigger legal stage list in the beggining, and that stages gets band over time.

But come on! This stage should be illegal. I would gladly here your reasons for why it should be a counter-pick.

 

[madworlder]

You've identified several aspects of the stage, but not why they are actually problematic.

 

[Pazx]

I was adamant that Wooly World should be banned entirely until yesterday. With a suitable number of stage bans, Wooly World would make a great counterpick for characters with good air games. I thought it wasn't really a stage that fit in with the spirit of the (competitive) game, given that it has both walkoffs AND a lack of a main platform for the majority of the time as well as janky physics with the platforms. I now realise a lot of the best stages have janky aspects (Dream Land wind, Halberd cannon, PS1 ****ty transformations, Lylat tilting) and stages like Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise have similar issues (air based + walkoffs). The only reason RC was banned was because of MK's dominance and IC's awfulness on the stage. You fight the stage less on Wooly World than you do on a lot of stages and I think for characters that suck on this stage like Little Mac having WW legal gives the counterpicking player a lot more options.

I also came up with a tentative stage list and ruleset for Smash 4 Singles. I personally prefer a 5 stage starter list but I can't decide on what the 5 stages should be so a 7 stage starter list is in this work-in-progress ruleset:

Spoiler

General Gameplay Rules

1. 2 Stocks
2. 6 Minute Time Limit
3. Items set to "Off" and "None"
4. Pause set to "Off"
5. All infinites and chain grabs are legal
6. The act of stalling is banned: stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable: Such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterruptible moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.
7. Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.
8. The winner will be declared by what the game says in all situations, except for when players are presented with sudden death or the match ends with a bowsercide:
a. In the event of a match going to time, the winner will be determined by who has less percent (stock difference still takes priority but will be shown in the results screen).
b. If the match ends with both players dying at the same time coincidentally, or if time ran out with both players at equal percent, a one stock three minute rematch will be played on the same stage.
c. If a match is ended via suicide move, the initiator of the move wins

Set Procedure

1. Player Priority is determined if it cannot be determined (see below)
2. Each player selects one controller port
3. Each player selects on character. A double blind pick may be called by either player
4. The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List through the Stage Striking Method. The order of Stage Striking will be 1-2-2-1 (Player 1 strikes one stage, Player 2 strikes two stages, Player 1 strikes two stages, Player 2 strikes one stage)
5. The first match is played
6. The player that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports
7. The player that won the previous match may announce two "Stage Bans"
8. The player that lost the previous match announces the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List. Any Stage named as a "Stage Ban" by either player may not be selected. A player may not counterpick to the last stage they have won on in the current set
9. The player that won the previous match chooses their character
10. The player that lost the previous match chooses their character
11. The next match is played
12. Repeat steps 6-11 for all remaining matches in the set

Determining Player Priority
If there is a dispute in controller port selection or initiating Stage Strike use the following method:
Players will use a random method such as Rock-Paper-Scissors, Coin Flip, or Game and Watch Judgment, where the winner selects either first choice in port selection or first choice in stage striking. Whichever player does not receive first choice in port selection will be compensated with first choice in stage striking.
Note: In Doubles, port selection is ordered 1-2-2-1 fashion (with Team-1 having first choice in controller slot select, Team-2 having both second and third choice, and the final slot going to Team-1).

Misc. Rules

1. The Gentleman Rule: Players may play on any stage, including banned stages, if all players in the match agree to it. If there is a dispute, standard procedure is followed.
2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have the opposing team change either their team or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)
3. The Omega Stage Rule: In the event that the Stage selected through Game One Stage Striking is Final Destination/Omega Stage and players are unable to agree on which stage, the Stage Striking Procedure is repeated with the Omega Stages List in a 1-2-2-2-1 fashion beginning with the player who struck second in the initial striking procedure. If Final Destination/Omega Stage is selected as a Counterpick by the player who lost the previous match they may select any Omega Stage they wish.

Stage List

Starters (7)

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

Counterpicks (10)

Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Big Battlefield
Yoshi's Wooly World
Pilotwings
Wii Fit Studio/Coliseum

Omega Stage List (9) - Information

Garden of Hope - Straight walls down to the bottom blast zone
Luigi's Mansion - Indented walls under stage
Bridge of Eldin - Wall is comprised of 2 straight walls above and below a curved guiding lip
Kalos Pokemon League - Guiding lip guides recoveries to ledge
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Floating stage, Small guiding lip, limited wall jump area
Norfair - Floating stage, guiding lip
Temple - Floating stage, flat wall above narrow guiding lip
Lylat Cruise - Floating stage, no guiding lip, no wall cling/jump
Final Destination - Floating, large guiding lip, wall jump and cling

The tournament is to be ran in a Double Elimination bracket and all sets are to be Best Out Of Three, aside from Winners Finals, Losers Finals and Grand Finals which are to be played Best Out Of Five.

Dubious stages should be legal until proven unviable, unless the stage is Orbital Gate Assault. **** Orbital Gate Assault.

 

[LiteralGrill]

For Wooly World when it goes to the non floor part of the transformation you're going to have camping issues. There are a lot of grabable ledges and a solid rocket in your way as well. I can sit and be incredibly rude with Falco or Fox not to mention characters like Jigglypuff, Kirby, or Meta Knight and just make the match unplayable.

That's why Hypest currently has it banned.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think anyone can pose a strong argument against the green stages being legal in some way (starter or CP) that isn't "I don't like it" or "the stage list should be small" (which I think is dumb)

Castle Siege should probably be yellow IMO. I think there's several arguments to be made against it, mostly dealing with the second transformation.


Also, in general, I'm very against Woolly World. I thought it looked super stupid when I first saw it, and it plays even worse. There's just virtually no ground to fight on and what little space there is is constantly shifting up and down, it's just a terrible design in general.

Air focused characters still have other stages that benefit them, like most of the transforming stages and KJ64.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Castle Siege should probably be yellow IMO. I think there's several arguments to be made against it, mostly dealing with the second transformation.

Such as?
The 2nd transform lasts like... 30 seconds or so? plus it's big, so if you just can't deal with walkoffs or whatever, you can conceivably run for that entire period (which I have never seen... even in Brawl) The statues eat projectiles... I don't really see how that is an issue, as worst case, it stops projectile campers from just standing at the walkoff and firing charge shots. It also seems like you can break them with 2-3 good hits (not sure if this has been changed from Brawl), so if that is REALLY a problem, you can break them after a few missiles, etc.

The argument against Siege that I can see is the transform changing edgeguarding, but it rumbles before it changes, so the edgeguarder has warning to jump out and try something crazy... so that's not really doing much but changing the interaction slightly.

Keeping in mind that in my list, green stages are obviously legal, and I'm not trying to say that all those are starters... I really don't think there's a good argument against Siege being at least legal, especially considering it was legal for the majority of Brawl. By moving it to yellow, I'd be saying that it's less fair / more random than Halberd and all 3 of the flying platform stages, which I'm not willing to do.

 

[Terotrous]

Such as?
The 2nd transform lasts like... 30 seconds or so?

It's actually 45 seconds per transformation for all 3 forms.

plus it's big, so if you just can't deal with walkoffs or whatever, you can conceivably run for that entire period (which I have never seen... even in Brawl)

It's definitely pretty circle campable as well.

The statues eat projectiles... I don't really see how that is an issue, as worst case, it stops projectile campers from just standing at the walkoff and firing charge shots. It also seems like you can break them with 2-3 good hits (not sure if this has been changed from Brawl), so if that is REALLY a problem, you can break them after a few missiles, etc.

Statues also eat any moves that activate on the first encountered hurtbox, such as Raptor Boost or Quick Draw. That also sounds way too low for durability unless it's a very strong projectile. It takes way more than 3 Yoshi Eggs to break it. Someone should test durability but I suspect it's 50-60.

The argument against Siege that I can see is the transform changing edgeguarding, but it rumbles before it changes, so the edgeguarder has warning to jump out and try something crazy... so that's not really doing much but changing the interaction slightly.

One of the main issues is the way the stage transforms. On travel stages, you have to return to a central platform. On Castle Siege, the entire stage briefly becomes a platform. This can not only steal KOs by suddenly giving one player ground to land on, but it also means walk-off camping is safer here since you don't have to attempt to fight your way back onto a platform where you opponent has stage control.


Anyway, I wouldn't call it super banned or anything, I always had it legal when I played Brawl and so I've put up with it for a long time, but I think if something like Mario Circuit or Windy Hill goes in the "somewhat questionable" section it definitely should too.

 

[Fenrir VII]

It's actually 45 seconds per transformation for all 3 forms.
It's definitely pretty circle campable as well.

Yeah I'll admit to not knowing the actual numbers, but I don't think temporarily circle camping is an issue... or at least one that does not exist on a number of other "fair" stages.

Statues also eat any moves that activate on the first encountered hurtbox, such as Raptor Boost or Quick Draw. That also sounds way too low for durability unless it's a very strong projectile. It takes way more than 3 Yoshi Eggs to break it. Someone should test durability but I suspect it's 50-60.

again, I don't know the actual values offhand, but I find the statues breaking very quickly when actually fighting. doesn't take much, but I might be under-representing it..
to the point that it eats raptor boost, etc... isn't that just a stage knowledge thing? does it significantly weaken those characters or moves over a matchup? I mean you could argue CF has one less option over fairly exact spacing to attack his opponent... over one of three 0:45 transforms on a CP stage... idk I just don't consider that unreasonable in the least. I mean for a stage like Duck Hunt... the dog and ducks do a very similar thing to an arguably larger degree (and more often). on Wuhu or delfino, a raptor boost spike offstage into the water actually becomes a possibility where it's literally suicide on any other stages. On Halberd, the hazards are avoidable... but you also have to know how to play around the laser, etc...
*shrug I don't consider attacks activating on the statues to be anything more than just a wrinkle in how you play on the stage... definitely not ban-worthy, especially over the aforementioned stages.

One of the main issues is the way the stage transforms. On travel stages, you have to return to a central platform. On Castle Siege, the entire stage briefly becomes a platform. This can not only steal KOs but suddenly giving one player ground to land on, but it also means walk-off camping is safer here since you don't have to attempt to fight your way back onto a platform where you opponent has stage control.

Considering the transformation only takes about a second now (in Brawl it could last longer), I don't agree with your second point. The only time that really comes into play is transforming OUT of the 2nd transformation... and at that point the walk off camper really has to book it to get back to stage for the 3rd.. I mean somebody could jump off the stage on the 1st transform to be in position for the 2nd, but that's not making walk-off camping safer... it's one person getting ready (which I'll reiterate that walk-off camping isn't very strong on the 2nd transform. Worst case, the opponent can hide for the transformation, and I've never seen that in Brawl). absolute worst case, the match is stalled during the 2nd transform... but in the VAST majority of matches, that just doesn't happen.

I responded to the stealing KOs thing above... the stage gives warning before transforming, arguably allowing the edgeguarder to safely go out further to counter that. since there is a 2-way interaction, it's just not random... and not unfair. Again I think you're pointing out things that are different about the stage, but really, I just see them as stage knowledge that does not require any more than other stages that are clearly on the "fair" list.

Anyway, I wouldn't call it super banned or anything, I always had it legal when I played Brawl and so I've put up with it for a long time, but I think if something like Mario Circuit or Windy Hill goes in the "somewhat questionable" section it definitely should too.

Well... Mario Circuit has unpredictable stage combos (techable, but you can get screwed by the stage for at least 1 spiking hit putting you in a bad position)... and a few glitches are coming out (disappearing platform and road causing ceiling KOs by mistake). Not to mention it cuts off entire blast zones...the shy guys, the walls and walkoffs, etc
I'm not arguing for a ban because I honestly want to test the stage first, but at the very least, you would have to admit there are more "wrinkles" to this stage than Siege.

For Windy Hill... idk I can't argue much because I have very limited experience on the stage. My ranking there is more based on what I have seen on the stage (springs, gravity, and windmill all complicating things a bit, small blast zones, etc), and what other people have said. I would consider this comparison, but I would look at it more from the POV of "should Windy Hill be green", rather than "should Siege be yellow"

 

[Terotrous]

to the point that it eats raptor boost, etc... isn't that just a stage knowledge thing? does it significantly weaken those characters or moves over a matchup?

I'd be a bit more concerned for Ike than Captain Falcon, since he has limited mobility. Also, don't forget that any time you hit the statue (or any other hitbox) you suffer hitlag, making approaches potentially less safe. This is again an issue for Ike as if he wants to say, do an autocancel Fair he'll hit the statue and suffer hitlag.

Whether or not these issues really cripple any character is up for debate (though note that the mere presence of a potential issue seems to push most stages to yellow), but they're certainly annoying and in some matches I think I would be tempted to just run out the transformation, especially if my opponent was going to camp near the statues.

Considering the transformation only takes about a second now (in Brawl it could last longer), I don't agree with your second point. The only time that really comes into play is transforming OUT of the 2nd transformation... and at that point the walk off camper really has to book it to get back to stage for the 3rd

Nah, this really isn't true at all, due to the location of the third part of the stage. On travel stages, the platform rises up and leaves, so if you're still on the stage you have to recover a long distance vertically, generally placing yourself on a very predictable trajectory where you can be easily edgeguarded if you can even make it back at all. On Castle Siege, the third fighting area actually appears below the transformation platform, so you just have to fall onto the stage from above. Even if you were right at the blastzone every character can make it back easily using only their double jump.

I responded to the stealing KOs thing above... the stage gives warning before transforming, arguably allowing the edgeguarder to safely go out further to counter that. since there is a 2-way interaction, it's just not random... and not unfair. Again I think you're pointing out things that are different about the stage, but really, I just see them as stage knowledge that does not require any more than other stages that are clearly on the "fair" list.

Also true of Mario Circuit but people seem to feel that the ability for a stage to steal a KO at any point results in a ban.

Well... Mario Circuit has unpredictable stage combos

Not any more unpredictable than the Castle Siege platform. The location of the track is deterministic.

Not to mention it cuts off entire blast zones...the shy guys, the walls and walkoffs, etc
I'm not arguing for a ban because I honestly want to test the stage first, but at the very least, you would have to admit there are more "wrinkles" to this stage than Siege.

Pretty much every travel stage has temporary walkoffs, but the mechanic where the platform rises up generally makes camping unviable so those are generally fine (note the difference between this and Castle Siege, above). The stops also don't last as long as Castle Siege's transformations.

The Shy Guys are generally a very minor threat, as they don't tend to cross the parts of the track that you would occupy during neutral play. I don't think I've ever been hit by one myself. Perhaps your opponent could throw you into a shy guy, but I would consider that to be a fair reward for them landing the grab while the Shy Guys were present (why weren't you scouting out the grab knowing that the opponent could get higher reward from it?). You can also do something similar with Halberd's cannon and it's not banned.

As for taking away one of the blastzones, I actually think that's an interesting stage control mechanic. If you can gain stage control and position yourself such that the opponent's kill moves will likely hit you into the wall, you can gain advantage. I don't think it's broken since the parts of the stage it covers shift every now and then and thus you can't just camp in one spot the whole time, but it's a nice little reward for those who are good at stage positioning. I think most of the people wanting to ban this stage are just those who don't really understand this mechanic and are throwing out poorly-chosen attacks that could not possibly kill. If your opponent is protected by the track you need to dislodge them from that spot before going for your kill move.

For Windy Hill... idk I can't argue much because I have very limited experience on the stage. My ranking there is more based on what I have seen on the stage (springs, gravity, and windmill all complicating things a bit, small blast zones, etc), and what other people have said. I would consider this comparison, but I would look at it more from the POV of "should Windy Hill be green", rather than "should Siege be yellow"

To me, green means "there's literally nothing you could contest about this stage", and in that sense I might agree that all 3 of these stages are somewhat yellow. Siege clearly has some issues even if it should be legal overall.

 

[19_]

What's the deal with windy hill? The gravity is not really an issue, the stage is not a big as it seems (am I wrong about this?), and springs don't seem to interrupt recovery because the stage is shaped in a way that you will mostly be recovering from the sides. The only reason I guess someone could say it is bannable is because of the small blastzones, and even that's a lame excuse in my opinion. I am starting to see it as a great counterpick.

 

[Fenrir VII]

We obviously just disagree, and that's ok.

few points I want to touch on..
-The hitlag suffered on statues also extends the hitboxes so at times it can be beneficial... again, just a factor of the stage, imo.
The interactions with the statues positively and negatively impact most characters in the game, and we didn't see a significant imbalance in Brawl. It's pretty much the definition of a universal stage "object" (not really a hazard) that everybody has to adapt to, and any argument of banning the stage would have to (A) slash the stage list like crazy, (B) show how the stage is positively/negatively impacting any significant number of chars, or (C) indicate how the stage is less fair or more random than any other "fair" stage.

-If a walkoff camper has to burn a 2nd jump to return to the 3rd form, that's not a non-factor. That is a fairly significantly negative position for them.

-You don't have to defend Mario Circuit to me. Again I'm not arguing a ban at this point. I'm saying it's a more complicated / interfering stage than Siege. Yes all of those things are somewhat deterministic and predictable, but the during-travel stage hitboxes, somewhat random transformation order, occasional shy guys, walls, etc etc etc essentially boil down to the stage being more chaotic than Siege by a fairly wide margin. I don't see how all of that is comparable to a single transformation path with static statues and no hazzards. I don't even see how that can be debated, completely disregarding the Mario Circuit glitches.

-"the mere presence of a potential issue seems to push most stages to yellow" is just untrue. Otherwise all stages other than the 5 starter list would be yellow. Halberd has hazards... that's an issue. Duck hunt has the same issues that you are arguing against Siege for (I'd argue the birds and dog are more consistently disruptive to more characters than the statues). Heck Wuhu has a killing hazard and that's a green. The green list isn't so conservative here.
I think that might be the issue here. If you want an absolutely uncontestable list of stages, that's going to be BF and Smashville. Every other stage has negative issues to some people. I could see making my green list the 5 starters and Halberd, Siege, and all transformation stages yellow... but then people would argue FD shouldn't be there.

No matter how you slice it, I believe there is a clear cut between the green stages and yellow stages. Mario Circuit is definitively more chaotic and more likely to cause a stage victory than the others. I can see arguments for Windy Hill and possibly PS2 for now, but the other yellows are fairly strongly controversial for various reasons, and are the "more liberal" stage lists.

 

[Piford]

I'd like to mention, Circle Camping actually isn't an issue on Castle Siege because the circle only goes in one direction (up the two platforms). The asymmetry stops circle camping from the other direction because you can't easily reach the second platform. Circle camping only works if the circle can go both ways, as if the catcher (the one who's not camping) turns around the camper cannot do the same as he doesn't have easy access to the second platform.

 

[kylexv]

Here's my list on what I think. Keep in mind that I am a bit hard on the stages:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination (Ω Stages too)
Smashville
Town and City

Stater or Counterpick
Kongo Jungle 64 (Barrel Cannon makes me a bit unsure)
Duck Hunt (Dog could interfere, but it doesn't happen often at all. There's also that tree on top)
Lylat Cruise (The tilting)

Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza (Moving stage)
Skyloft (Again, moving stage)
Halberd (Was a counterpick in Brawl)
Orbital Gate Assualt (The transitions and some platform layouts are a bit strange)
Castle Siege (Again, was a counterpick in Brawl)
Wuhu Island (Currently a glitch with Ness)

Counterpick/Banned
Big Battlefield (Very large. However, it would work well for doubles)
Luigi's Mansion (Could work, but I don't see it happening)
Gamer (Mom is fairly easy to avoid. But if you end getting hit, it does quite a bit of knockback)
Norfair (Easy to avoid hazards, but could interfere gameplay)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Like Pokemon Stadium 1, but with more annoying stage forms)
Garden of Hope (Same situation as Gamer, but with the Peckish Aristocrab instead of Mom)
Pilotwings (Basic stage, but it encourages camping)

Banned
Mario Galaxy (Walkoff)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit instantly kills you. Also the spiky creatures)
Mario Circuit (Ceiling and the Shy Guys)
Mario Circuit (Brawl) (Walkoff and Shy Guys)
Wooly World (2/3 of the sections have walkoffs. The other one has weird platform arrangements)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Walkoff on the right and the flip blocks)
Jungle Hijinx (One of the planes can fall down, and it can really screw people over)
75m (Large and has annoying hazards)
Temple (Way too large)
Bridge of Eldin (Walkoff and the bridge will get destroyed)
Pyrosphere (Ridley)
The Great Cave Offensive (VERY large)
Kalos Pokemon League (Interferent hazards)
Onett (The cars and strange platform arrangement)
Coliseum (Walkoff)
Flatzone X (Many hazards and close blast zones)
Palutena's Temple (Way too big)
Skyworld (Ceiling)
Boxing Ring (Walkoff)
Wii Fit Studio (Walkoff)
Gaur Plain (Large stage with a boss)
Wrecking Crew (Encourages camping. Its structure is also very tall)
Windy Hill Zone (Large Stage. Also, those springs can really mess with you sometimes)
Wily Castle (Yellow Devil ruined it)
Pac-Land (Scrolling stage)

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm gonna be frank. You really didn't seem that harsh compared to some of the other voices here. Aside from Mario Circuit U, I can get behind your list, though I won't support Gamer.

 

[Ha7wire]

confused why you have rainbow road as an acceptable map?

 

[Pazx]

@ kylexv - (I believe) Orbital Gate Assault should be 100% banned because while some stages offer you a disadvantage for being in certain positions one particular transition on OGA will simply kill you for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This along with your inclusion of Gamer, Norfair and Garden of Hope are the major problems with your list. Also, the Ness glitch on Wuhu is incredibly unlikely to occur under tournament conditions. Siege was also sometimes a starter in Brawl, yet you rule out Wooly World for having similar walkoffs. Your list should be reevaluated.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Why do people keep saying Windy Hill Zone is big? The blastzones are correctly positioned for stocks to go at a good clip (in line with other stages) and there's really no run-away potential here. The size is mostly (almost entirely) an optical illusion. I just don't get the resistance to this stage at all; it's so basic and tame and seems like such an obviously legal stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why do people keep saying Windy Hill Zone is big? The blastzones are correctly positioned for stocks to go at a good clip (in line with other stages) and there's really no run-away potential here. The size is mostly (almost entirely) an optical illusion. I just don't get the resistance to this stage at all; it's so basic and tame and seems like such an obviously legal stage.

Well, it's certainly a long stage. But all of my gameplay hasn't shown it to be a problem.

Windmill camping was a concern, but hasn't proven to be an issue in practice. A Villager tried it earlier today against me, and I dealt with it fine. (I forget as who)

 

[LiteralGrill]

See, in our tournament it turned into a specific problem. Windy Hill was barely touched, and when it was run away was a major complaint every time. Maybe no one is trying to abuse it hard enough or something, but every match I've personally messed around with on there have just been really lame to fight as well with run away and camping being really unfun for everyone. We've had stupid early kills off the sides, and springs showing up to gimp folks as well which is definitely not nice. It's somewhat tame, but also was causing issues. It was one of our number 1 ban requests (outside of Mario Kart Circuit) as well.

 

[19_]

See, in our tournament it turned into a specific problem. Windy Hill was barely touched, and when it was run away was a major complaint every time. Maybe no one is trying to abuse it hard enough or something, but every match I've personally messed around with on there have just been really lame to fight as well with run away and camping being really unfun for everyone. We've had stupid early kills off the sides, and springs showing up to gimp folks as well which is definitely not nice. It's somewhat tame, but also was causing issues. It was one of our number 1 ban requests (outside of Mario Kart Circuit) as well.

That stinks to hear that. I looked good on paper though so when I get the game I will test it myself, but coming from you that does not sound pleasant.

 

[LiteralGrill]

We Have a stage Legality Poll On /r/smashbros Right Now!​

I hope some of you guys come in and vote. In case you missed it on there we are considering running another stage testing tournament as well. A lot of the voting there is going to determine that, so if you want stages tested go in there and ask for them. I'm also opening to floor in that thread for all stage discussion so if you want to defend/lambast a stage and let the public know all about it that is a great place to do so!

Also @ ParanoidDrone I linked all of your stage research threads in the comments. Thanks again for doing that awesome work and writing those.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

We Have a stage Legality Poll On /r/smashbros Right Now!​

I hope some of you guys come in and vote. In case you missed it on there we are considering running another stage testing tournament as well. A lot of the voting there is going to determine that, so if you want stages tested go in there and ask for them. I'm also opening to floor in that thread for all stage discussion so if you want to defend/lambast a stage and let the public know all about it that is a great place to do so!

Also @ ParanoidDrone I linked all of your stage research threads in the comments. Thanks again for doing that awesome work and writing those.

I noticed. I plan on doing Woolly World later today so keep an eye out for that too.

EDIT: Thread is up.

 

[KingCowman]

On that note, you can stand on the engine on Pilot Wings on the yellow plane. It's not easy to get there, but some characters can and there is like NO safe way to approach them there and they can shark too. That along with the plane being a wall for camping may turn out to be too big an issue.

This is a really late respone but I cant find anyone talking about this more recently so here it goes.

Ever character in the game can get to the engine without using a move that makes them helpless. Everyone. Some you have to be a little bit better at than others, and some you need to exploit the tilting of the stage. EVEN LITTLE MAC can do it without using any moves except jump. (Stage tilts ->fall from edge and hold toward stage -> jump)

So its pretty obvious it gives no character an advantage, in fact i would say big characters get a great advantage.Especially because they have godlike sharking abilities, but also because of the fierce area denial they can put out for the telegraphed approaches by smaller characters.

Now the issue of getting them out. If they are sharking, you can challenge this with attacks that hit ground level and below with good priority. A short hop dair for ganon is an extremely good counter shark move amd will either bounce them above the stage or kill if they miss the engine.

THen theres the issue of how long this can go on. When you first fly through the town the left engine gets hit by a house or something, so you have to dodge that. The right engine is completely safe, but how long can you camp it? The wholre ride? How longi s that? The answer is 1:10 seconds out of a 2 minute loop. This is bad as it could effectively make an 8 min match 4 min long by stalling..

Finally, lets assume that this tactic is the worst thing that could ever happen and is the only option. If nothing is done in this scenario matches will devolve into getting the most damage out and then both players will sit on either engine until the red plane comes around. How do we combat this?

The first otion is to ban the stage but that isnt fun and is kind of the reason why im posting this to begin with.

The second option is to do nothing. We havent seen this in tournaments yet. We dont know how the best players will react. What if great players have no issue with countering this tactic? Do we still do something about it for the newbs that do lose to it? No bevcaus we all cheese tactics beat newbs, Do we care? No becaue this ruleset isnt designed for them, its designed for people that are better than that.

The third option is to ban the action of engine stalling. This has caused a bit of debate amongst people as I have seen. If we tell people how not to play on a stage, shouldnt we just ban it? This makes sense, except for the fact that precedent tells us we shouldnt. If this was the standard logic of the backgroom for melee and brawl, then Jigglypuff, Luigi, Ice Climbers, Ness, and Peach would all be banned characters because they have tactics associated with them that are ban worthy.For brawl, every infinite character would be banned. Are they? NO. Because that would be rediculous. Stalling techniques are blatantly obvious when used in tournaments. We even put a number on the number of times you could grab the ledge in brawl. Why cant we put a number on the amount of time you are allowed to put yourself in unreachable positions or even ban the act entirely?

Personally I think the third option is the best if this tactic preoves to be OP. But I'm thinking it wont be, every character can get there, and most can initiate onto the engie with a move that has a safe priority . Additionally many players have projectiles and moves that can hit below the platform they are used on.

For the time being I am keeping it legal in my tiny tournaments, with no rule attached. Through field testing I will revise my decision with more data.

If you dont think your character can contest an engine camprer very well, then ban the stage, they give you bans when you win for a reason.

 

[Johnknight1]

Here's my list on what I think. Keep in mind that I am a bit hard on the stages:

Counterpick:Orbital Gate Assualt (The transitions and some platform layouts are a bit strange)

I've seen two polar opposite statements made in the same argument in my life.

 

[Pazx]

Suggestion: we "agree" on a list of stages from most to least fair/competitive/balanced/neutral/legal and then later we can decide on the distinctions between Starter and CP and Banned. I'll give it a shot because I'd like to see how people think the stages stack up against each other outside of "this should be banned". If I've put the stages on the same line it's because they're about the same level of "fairness" or whatever quality we use to order them.

Battlefield/Smashville/Final Destination
Lylat
Kongo Jungle 64/Town and City/Skyloft
Duck Hunt
Halberd/Delfino/Wuhu/Castle Siege
PS2
Woolly World/Pilotwings
Big Battlefield

note: that is my personal preferred legal stage list

Mario Circuit U/Windy Hill Zone/Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Coliseum/Wii Fit Studio
almost everything else
Temple
Palutena's Temple
Orbital Gate Assault (please no)

Although I expect many to disagree with WHERE to place the cutoff between CP/Banned, would anybody disagree with my ordering of the stages in terms of competitive viability? I highly recommend everyone plays multiple full games on each stage, even the ****ty ones like Orbital Gate Assault before making their decisions.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Big battlefield has no place on a 1v1 stage list.

The rest, everybody has different opinions about the order, but it's on the right track at the very least

 

[LiteralGrill]

/r/smashbros Stage Legality Poll Results​

With over 400 people answering our survey this was one HECK of a poll guys. This gave us the opinions of the masses on these stages. Let's see what people had to say on each one!

[collapse=TLDR Results:]

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Smashville
Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Duck hunt
Skyloft
Counterpick/Banned
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Luigi's Mansion
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone


Needs Testing:
Big Battlefield
Luigi's Mansion
Pilot Wings
Needs Testing/Likely Banned:
Mushroom Kingdom U (?)
Jungle Hijinx
Wooly World
Orbital Gate Assault
Kalos Pokemon League
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive

Banned:
Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
Pyrosphere
Yoshi's Island Melee
The Great Cave Offensive
Onett
Coliseum
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Gamer
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plains
75 m
Wrecking Crew
Wily Castle
PAC-LAND
[/collapse]

[collapse=RESULTS]

Battlefield
Starter: 97%
Counterpick: 1%
Banned: 2%

Big Battlefield
Starter: 15%
Counterpick: 36%
Banned: 51%

Should the stage be tested?
Yes: 72%
No: 28%

Final Destination
Starter: 87%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 2%

Mushroom Kingdom U
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 21%
Banned: 75%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 42%
No: 58%

Mario Galaxy
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 18%
Banned: 76%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 34%
No: 66%

Delfino Plaza
Starter: 15%
Counterpick: 74%
Banned: 11%

Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 45%
Banned: 49%

Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Starter: 2%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 93%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 14%
No: 86%

Luigi's Mansion
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 42%
Banned: 52%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 57%
No: 43%

Jungle Hijinx
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 19%
Banned: 78%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 41%
No: 59%

Kongo Jungle 64
Starter: 25%
Counterpick: 65%
Banned: 10%

Skyloft
Starter: 17%
Counterpick 68%
Banned: 15%

Bridge of Eldin
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 84%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 21%
No: 79%

Temple
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 5%
Banned: 90%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 16%
No: 84%

Pyrosphere
Stater: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No: 91%

Norfair
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 27%
Banned: 70%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 39%
No: 61%

Port Down Aero Dive
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 74%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 38%
No: 62%

Wooly World
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 32%
Banned: 65%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 50%
No: 50%

Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 15%
Banned: 79%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 21%
No: 79%

The Great Cave Offensive
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 2%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 8%
No: 92%

Halberd
Starter: 19%
Counterpick: 69%
Banned: 11%

Orbital Gate Assault
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 26%
Banned: 71%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 42%
No: 58%

Lylat Cruise
Starter: 65%
Counterpick: 29%
Banned: 6%

Kalos Pokemon League
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 74%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 46%
No: 54%

Pokemon Stadium 2
Starter: 16%
Counterpick: 61%
Banned: 23%

Onett
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 86%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 19%
No: 81%

Coliseum
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 29%
Banned: 64%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 38%
No: 62%
Castle Siege
Starter: 11%
Counterpick: 68%
Banned: 21%

Flat Zone X
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 8%
No: 92%
Palutena's Temple
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 92%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No: 91%

Skyworld
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 34%
Banned: 59%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 47%
No: 53%

Gamer
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 18%
Banned: 78%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 34%
No: 66%

Garden of Hope
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 75%

Should we test this stage:
Yes: 40%
No: 60%

Town and City
Starter: 87%
counterpick: 10%
Banned: 3%

Smashville
Starter: 96%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 2%

Wii Fit Studio
Starter: 8%
Counterpick: 23%
Banned: 69%

Should we test this stage:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Gaur Plains
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 7%
Banned: 90%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 14%
No: 86%

Duck Hunt
Starter: 37%
Counterpick: 50%
Banned: 1%

75 m
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 2%
Banned: 95%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Wrecking Crew
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 21%
Banned: 76%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 6%
No: 94%

Pilotwings
Starter: 17%
Counterpick: 24%
Banned: 58%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 78%
No: 22%

Wuhu Island
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 43%
Banned: 50%

Windy Hill Zone
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 43%
Banned: 50%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Wily Castle
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 12%
No: 88%

PAC-LAND
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 92%

should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No 91%

[/collapse]

Now that we know a lot about what the general public thinks about stages, let's discuss the stages themselves in depth, or talk about how we can better go about educating people on some of these stages.

​

 

[T-block]

^ I think you missed Skyloft in your list.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm somewhat distressed at how many stages people thought shouldn't even be tested. Big Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion, Woolly World, and Pilotwings are the only 4 to reach 50% or more approval for testing.

 

[RESET Vao]

Here's my list on what I think. Keep in mind that I am a bit hard on the stages:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination (Ω Stages too)
Smashville
Town and City

Stater or Counterpick
Kongo Jungle 64 (Barrel Cannon makes me a bit unsure)
Duck Hunt (Dog could interfere, but it doesn't happen often at all. There's also that tree on top)
Lylat Cruise (The tilting)

Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza (Moving stage)
Skyloft (Again, moving stage)
Halberd (Was a counterpick in Brawl)
Orbital Gate Assualt (The transitions and some platform layouts are a bit strange)
Castle Siege (Again, was a counterpick in Brawl)
Wuhu Island (Currently a glitch with Ness)

Counterpick/Banned
Big Battlefield (Very large. However, it would work well for doubles)
Luigi's Mansion (Could work, but I don't see it happening)
Gamer (Mom is fairly easy to avoid. But if you end getting hit, it does quite a bit of knockback)
Norfair (Easy to avoid hazards, but could interfere gameplay)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Like Pokemon Stadium 1, but with more annoying stage forms)
Garden of Hope (Same situation as Gamer, but with the Peckish Aristocrab instead of Mom)
Pilotwings (Basic stage, but it encourages camping)

Banned
Mario Galaxy (Walkoff)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit instantly kills you. Also the spiky creatures)
Mario Circuit (Ceiling and the Shy Guys)
Mario Circuit (Brawl) (Walkoff and Shy Guys)
Wooly World (2/3 of the sections have walkoffs. The other one has weird platform arrangements)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Walkoff on the right and the flip blocks)
Jungle Hijinx (One of the planes can fall down, and it can really screw people over)
75m (Large and has annoying hazards)
Temple (Way too large)
Bridge of Eldin (Walkoff and the bridge will get destroyed)
Pyrosphere (Ridley)
The Great Cave Offensive (VERY large)
Kalos Pokemon League (Interferent hazards)
Onett (The cars and strange platform arrangement)
Coliseum (Walkoff)
Flatzone X (Many hazards and close blast zones)
Palutena's Temple (Way too big)
Skyworld (Ceiling)
Boxing Ring (Walkoff)
Wii Fit Studio (Walkoff)
Gaur Plain (Large stage with a boss)
Wrecking Crew (Encourages camping. Its structure is also very tall)
Windy Hill Zone (Large Stage. Also, those springs can really mess with you sometimes)
Wily Castle (Yellow Devil ruined it)
Pac-Land (Scrolling stage)

Hooray SWF finally let me reply. Anyway, your list is very well presented and you have opinions next to all of them which is great. I'm going to use this list as a template to forge my own opinions in a few moments. I'm just gonna walk about every stage mentioned and maybe write a bit more on each and every one. I'm pretty good for writing walls of text which make me look smart, despite the content being explained in a single sentence.

 

[Pazx]

I'm somewhat distressed at how many stages people thought shouldn't even be tested. Big Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion, Woolly World, and Pilotwings are the only 4 to reach 50% or more approval for testing.

There's no point testing some stages, though. Those four stages were deemed potentially legal by the people who asked for testing, the fact that other stages didn't get testing approval means they're disliked and not seemingly viable.

 

[Piford]

/r/smashbros Stage Legality Poll Results​

With over 400 people answering our survey this was one HECK of a poll guys. This gave us the opinions of the masses on these stages. Let's see what people had to say on each one!

[collapse=TLDR Results:

[B]Starter: [/B]
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Smashville
Counterpick:
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Duck hunt
Counterpick/Banned
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Luigi's Mansion
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill


Needs Testing:
Big Battlefield
Luigi's Mansion
Pilot Wings
Needs Testing/Likely Banned:
Mushroom Kingdom U (?)
Jungle Hijinx
Wooly World
Orbital Gate Assault
Kalos Pokemon League
Skyworld
Garden of Hope

Banned:
Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island Melee
The Great Cave Offensive
Onett
Coliseum
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Gamer
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plains
75 m
Wrecking Crew
Wily Castle
PAC-LAND
[/collapse]

[collapse=RESULTS]

Battlefield
Starter: 97%
Counterpick: 1%
Banned: 2%

Big Battlefield
Starter: 15%
Counterpick: 36%
Banned: 51%

Should the stage be tested?
Yes: 72%
No: 28%

Final Destination
Starter: 87%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 2%

Mushroom Kingdom U
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 21%
Banned: 75%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 42%
No: 58%

Mario Galaxy
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 18%
Banned: 76%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 34%
No: 66%

Delfino Plaza
Starter: 15%
Counterpick: 74%
Banned: 11%

Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 45%
Banned: 49%

Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Starter: 2%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 93%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 14%
No: 86%

Luigi's Mansion
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 42%
Banned: 52%

Should this stage be tested?
Yes: 57%
No: 43%

Jungle Hijinx
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 19%
Banned: 78%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 41%
No: 59%

Kongo Jungle 64
Starter: 25%
Counterpick: 65%
Banned: 10%

Skyloft
Starter: 17%
Counterpick 68%
Banned: 15%

Bridge of Eldin
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 84%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 21%
No: 79%

Temple
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 5%
Banned: 90%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 16%
No: 84%

Pyrosphere
Stater: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No: 91%

Norfair
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 27%
Banned: 70%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 39%
No: 61%
Port Down Aero Dive
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 74%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 38%
No: 62%

Wooly World
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 32%
Banned: 65%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 50%
No: 50%

Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 15%
Banned: 79%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 21%
No: 79%

The Great Cave Offensive
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 2%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 8%
No: 92%

Halberd
Starter: 19%
Counterpick: 69%
Banned: 11%

Orbital Gate Assault
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 26%
Banned: 71%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 42%
No: 58%

Lylat Cruise
Starter: 65%
Counterpick: 29%
Banned: 6%

Kalos Pokemon League
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 74%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 46%
No: 54%

Pokemon Stadium 2
Starter: 16%
Counterpick: 61%
Banned: 23%

Onett
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 11%
Banned: 86%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 19%
No: 81%

Coliseum
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 29%
Banned: 64%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 38%
No: 62%
Castle Siege
Starter: 11%
Counterpick: 68%
Banned: 21%

Flat Zone X
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 8%
No: 92%
Palutena's Temple
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 92%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No: 91%

Skyworld
Starter: 6%
Counterpick: 34%
Banned: 59%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 47%
No: 53%

Gamer
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 18%
Banned: 78%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 34%
No: 66%

Garden of Hope
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 22%
Banned: 75%

Should we test this stage:
Yes: 40%
No: 60%

Town and City
Starter: 87%
counterpick: 10%
Banned: 3%

Smashville
Starter: 96%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 2%

Wii Fit Studio
Starter: 8%
Counterpick: 23%
Banned: 69%

Should we test this stage:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Gaur Plains
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 7%
Banned: 90%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 14%
No: 86%

Duck Hunt
Starter: 37%
Counterpick: 50%
Banned: 1%

75 m
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 2%
Banned: 95%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Wrecking Crew
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 21%
Banned: 76%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 6%
No: 94%

Pilotwings
Starter: 17%
Counterpick: 24%
Banned: 58%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 78%
No: 22%

Wuhu Island
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 43%
Banned: 50%
Windy Hill Zone
Starter: 7%
Counterpick: 43%
Banned: 60%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 36%
No: 64%

Wily Castle
Starter: 3%
Counterpick: 3%
Banned: 94%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 12%
No: 88%

PAC-LAND
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 4%
Banned: 92%

should this stage be tested:
Yes: 9%
No 91%

[/collapse]

Now that we know a lot about what the general public thinks about stages, let's discuss the stages themselves in depth, or talk about how we can better go about educating people on some of these stages.

​

There are definitely some things that need to come to mind when looking at these results. The obvious one is Wuhu Island listed as banned because of "I think we can all agree this stage is banned." Second some of these numbers don't seem to add up, like Windy Hill had 50% people want it legal and 60% of people wanting it banned; if thats just a typing error I'm sorry as this clearly took a lot of work. Norfair probably should be thrown in the testing section simply because it is more fair than a majority of those stages. People just see lava and are like #BANNED. It also got close to the amount of should be testing percent (39% compared to 40% for Garden of Hope), and had more of a should be legal percent (30% compared to 25% for Garden of Hope). Also, you listed Luigi's Mansion twice and left out Skyloft.

 

[LiteralGrill]

^ I think you missed Skyloft in your list.

Yeah I forgot to get it in the "TLDR". It's a counterpick contender for sure.

There's no point testing some stages, though. Those four stages were deemed potentially legal by the people who asked for testing, the fact that other stages didn't get testing approval means they're disliked and not seemingly viable.

That is exactly that. The other stages are not liked enough (MAYBE Mushroom Kingdom U, it got love in the comments which I couldn't share since they were so numerous) to even have a reasonable shot without major public outcry.

There are definitely some things that need to come to mind when looking at these results. The obvious one is Wuhu Island listed as banned because of "I think we can all agree this stage is banned." Second some of these numbers don't seem to add up, like Windy Hill had 50% people want it legal and 60% of people wanting it banned; if thats just a typing error I'm sorry as this clearly took a lot of work.

The WAS a typing error, that's fixed now. I was doing this late at night while waiting for 3DS Doubles to finish, so fatigue a bit I spose. I will agree, Wuhu Island where it is could very much be because of the famous video of the glitch. That does show us though if we want Wuhu sto stay on that 100% no complaints legal list we need to do some work educating folks.

Norfair probably should be thrown in the testing section simply because it is more fair than a majority of those stages. People just see lava and are like #BANNED. It also got close to the amount of should be testing percent (39% compared to 40% for Garden of Hope), and had more of a should be legal percent (30% compared to 25% for Garden of Hope). Also, you listed Luigi's Mansion twice and left out Skyloft.

I listed Luigi's Mansion twice QUITE on purpose. The stage had similar levels of love as Mario Circuit U (a stage Hypest has legal right now) so I felt it would be wrong not to mention that not only do player want it tested, many find it acceptable already. I fixed Skyloft (fatigue) and maybe I'll put Norfair in there as you did raise a fair point. We not have to consider which if any of these stages should actually get played on in a stage testing tournament.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There's no point testing some stages, though. Those four stages were deemed potentially legal by the people who asked for testing, the fact that other stages didn't get testing approval means they're disliked and not seemingly viable.

For the truly awful ones like Pac-Land or Great Cave Offensive, I agree. But Jungle Hijinxs, Garden of Hope, and Windy Hill Zone (just to name 3) I think deserve a fair shake in a serious competitive setting with competent players, so I can't support simply banning them without testing.

There's also my mini-crusade for Coliseum, Wii Fit Studio, and Mario Galaxy but walkoffs have cooties.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think most people are blinded by the Wuhu glitch...

There's really no reason to argue for a ban without arguing other moving stages

RE jungle hyjinx... Not so much because of the barrels, but both stages are just so huge that it's hard to argue for it.