Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[madworlder]

Some outsider perspective on stages and whatnot...
I think players should have to deal with things they don't like in competitive play sometimes. If a stage is fair enough that a more skilled player can win the vast majority of the time, it should be allowed in tournament. If someone absolutely hate transforming stages, by all means they can use all their strikes against them. But they don't have the right to be upset when they get an unfavorable matchup on a non-transforming stage. Even if someone doesn't like a thing such as transforming stages, those are just parts of the game that they should be expected to know and understand if they want to compete-- assuming that the stage can produce a consistent result.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Isn't Luigi's Mansion smaller this time around (It feels that way and every other stage from Brawl is I believe)? That would definitely help stop some of the circle camping, and it's still destructible so you can easily destroy the house if someone tries to camp.

Edit:

I made this write up to try to post on the subreddit to help show some people the benefits of a legal stage list. I thought some feedback would help, so I can make sure I don't leave any wholes or have a weak argument or something along those lines. Any feedback would be great, especially on any points I forgot to put, or any contradictions I make.

Your writeup looks fine to me but I basically agree with it in its entirety so I'm not exactly objective. The troll in me wants to find a way to call "no johns" on people who blame the stage for their losses too but that may be a step too far.

Some outsider perspective on stages and whatnot...
I think players should have to deal with things they don't like in competitive play sometimes. If a stage is fair enough that a more skilled player can win the vast majority of the time, it should be allowed in tournament. If someone absolutely hate transforming stages, by all means they can use all their strikes against them. But they don't have the right to be upset when they get an unfavorable matchup on a non-transforming stage. Even if someone doesn't like a thing such as transforming stages, those are just parts of the game that they should be expected to know and understand if they want to compete-- assuming that the stage can produce a consistent result.

Also this. A lot of the calls for stage bans sound like people afraid of playing outside of their comfort zone, which is basically the ultimate john.

 

[Lilfut]

Coming from the perspective of someone who's more of a spectator than a player - I feel like you guys should really examine Windy Hill and Mario Galaxy more closely. The gravity shenanigans, particularly with Robin's Thoron breaking the rules, seem like they'd be incredibly fun to watch.

Also, speaking as a Ness main who's been ****ed over by PK Thunder hitting the ducks a few times - I absolutely support Duck Hunt as a CP.

 

[digiholic]

I say for a young metagame like this one, it is better to err on the side of legal rather than banned. If something's on the fence, keep it legal until something comes along and makes us rethink that.

Legal until proven broken.

 

[Lilfut]

To clarify my position on Duck Hunt - Yoshi's Island Brawl was a starter, and between the Fly Guys ****ing up PK Thunder and the Support Ghost it was arguably less fair than Duck Hunt.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Basically, mild circle camping. You can spend multiple minutes in many matchups running away with abnormally low penalty or risk.

Neither stage is Temple--you can expect the circle camper to eventually take SOME damage (not zero), but it's still an extreme enough effect to bump into common time limits.

For a long percentage of my Brawl career, Luigi's Mansion was the only stage I ever saw anyone timed out on in person.

Makes sense, but you're making the argument that Norfair is less camp-inducing than those stages, which I would strongly disagree with for both stages.

With the physics of this game and smaller size, KJ64 really isn't a problem for circle camping in the vast majority of matchups. To somebody's point earlier, I could see it giving Mac issues (along with practically every non-FD stage), and potentially a couple heavy chars might have issues against a couple fast characters... but with the ban/striking system, I don't ever see an issue with that. If a heavy is worried about a matchup, they can easily ban the stage.
*shrug I still consider it a neutral in this game... and I don't think any stage other than SV, FD, BF, LC are more neutral-worthy than it. I can see an argument for T&C, but similarity with SV and the size not much (if any) smaller than KJ64 make me prefer KJ. I actually would consider an argument for Skyloft as a neutral, but asymmetric/transforming seems worse in that scenario (but I do think incredibly highly of Skyloft, as most people know).

I don't think Duck Hunt has any place as a neutral (in any kind of <=7 stage starter/CP stage list). To @ Lilfut 's point... I actually don't think Yoshi's Brawl should have been a starter with all the problems it caused, but Brawl had a limited number of "standard" stages so it won out because of symmetry most likely. Thankfully, we don't have that issue with 4.

EDIT: 1 more point...For a 7 stage starter list, I really don't think you can beat this:
Smashville, Battlefield, FD, Lylat, KJ64, T&C, Skyloft

 

[BestTeaMaker]

So, playing devil's advocate for a second (I personally support larger stagelists). If players don't want to play on certain stages to the point that they're always banned when given the chance, why put them in the stagelist? One aspect about creating a stagelist is about making something that people are willing to go out of their way to compete for it. Why would competitive players come out to an event that legalizes stages that they don't like?

 

[madworlder]

Because those stages are in the game and give consistent results.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned
If you want to play the game competitively, you should be expected to understand them. You could reasonably gain an advantage from being good at an unpopular (but fair) stage and not banning it, and players should want to exploit that.

 

[Piford]

So, playing devil's advocate for a second (I personally support larger stagelists). If players don't want to play on certain stages to the point that they're always banned when given the chance, why put them in the stagelist? One aspect about creating a stagelist is about making something that people are willing to go out of their way to compete for it. Why would competitive players come out to an event that legalizes stages that they don't like?

Because banning those stages stops people that want to play on them from playing there, and only gives people who don't want to play there another option to win. If you absolutely hate Delfino, you will still probably play there if its the stage that's best for your character. If you love Delfino and it's banned, then you can't play on a stage even if it's fair.

 

[Terotrous]

I think it's much better to focus on the way the stage affects the game than how popular it is. For example, suppose I play a character who is susceptible to circle camping. If all stages were legal, obviously I would want to ban the circle camping stages first, so in theory you could argue that those stages could be legal and stage striking would take care of them, but by forcing me to waste all of my bans on these terrible stages you're basically giving the other characters an advantage since they pretty much get their stage of choice.

This is why the stagelist actually has an impact on the metagame even with full stage striking, and we should generally try to eliminate stages that create significant imbalance.


In that way, I think the best way to arrive at a good stagelist is to continue what we've been doing - play on the various stages and examine how they affect the game, and make arguments in favour or against their legality.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

After some research (by which I mean playing), here are my results:

• Wrecking Crew is banned (could be allowed on experimentals) due to the bombs stopping certain attacks and combos, the exploding walls has hit boxes and allows for easier combos for pretty much anyone. The platforms don't help either because the one on the top is pretty close to the ceiling
• Mushroom Kingdom U is obviously banned. Even if Nabbit wasn't around, icicles can freeze people, interrupting whatever they doing and the Meringue Clouds section has a huge hole in the middles, giving a third bottom blastzones for spikes and meteors
• Mario Circuit 8 is banned. The transformations themselves are okay, but the Shy Guys ruined it, as they can KO and can even combo into each other, giving a good amount of damage
• Luigi's Mansion's pillars work just like Wrecking Crew's bombs, but they don't create chained explosions in an entire line, so its legality is quite debatable
• Jungle Hijinxs is a possible ban, due to how either of the two planes can sink and cause KOs (especially when helpless)
• Kongo Jungle 64 seems to be back to its 64 size, making it legal for singles again.
• Norfair's lava is easier to avoid, so it is a possible counter (especially in experimentals)
• Port Town Aero Dive and Pokemon Stadium 2 remain unchanged from Brawl
• Wooly World is a walk-off 66% of the time, and and incredibly awkward weight influced platform layout with a huge gap below, creating over-reliance on meteors when in the air (which will most likely be where you'll be most of the time). BANNED!
• Orbital Gate Assault is a tough one. It's like Poke Floats, but much less chaotic, and yet people don't see that. I believe it is an obvious counter on experimentals, but its position in actual tournaments remains to be seen. Requires more examination.
• Kalos Pokemon League is broken due to the way Pokemons interfere (Rayquaza, Wailord and whoever made that metal goop are notable example). Otherwise, it was a perfect counterpick. Experimentals may pick that stage as a counter for now.
• Gamer is banned because of 5-Volt. She KOs sooner than most KO moves and requires you to stay in the ground to get out of her vision faster, ruining everyone's strategies but Little Mac's (who can also get KOd by her when "trying" to recover)
• Garden of Hope is a perfect counter for experimantals, but legality in actual tourneys is debatable due to the Peckish Aristocrab (despite his predictability)
• Duck Hunt is a counter, since taking down the birds is an optional "mini-game" of this stage and rewards nothing but avoiding the Dog's laugh. It also has a very basic layout, giving it possibility to rise as a neutral at some point.
• Pilotwings's camping is notoriously broken in singles, but let's try it in doubles before perma-banning it.
• Wuhu Island has this glitch with Ness's down throw, but it is quite difficult to get it and could be patched, so it's a possible counter.
• Windy Hill Zone and Big Battlefield are too big for singles, but perfect for doubles.
• Despite the lack of chaingrabs in this game, walk-offs are still terrible in a competitive enviromment, so they're still banned.
• PAC-LAND is the worst stage in this game by a HUGE lead.

 

[Slyphoria]

After some research (by which I mean playing), here are my results:

• Mario Circuit 8 is banned. The transformations themselves are okay, but the Shy Guys ruined it, as they can KO and can even combo into each other, giving a good amount of damage
• Mushroom Kingdom U is obviously banned. Even if Nabbit wasn't around, icicles can freeze people, interrupting whatever they doing and the Meringue Clouds section has a huge hole in the middles, giving a third bottom blastzones for spikes and meteors
  
• Jungle Hijinxs is a possible ban, due to how either of the two planes can sink and cause KOs (especially when helpless)
• Gamer is banned because of 5-Volt. She KOs sooner than most KO moves and requires you to stay in the ground to get out of her vision faster, ruining everyone's strategies but Little Mac's (who can also get KOd by her when "trying" to recover)
• Wuhu Island has this glitch with Ness's down throw, but it is quite difficult to get it and could be patched, so it's a possible counter.
• Windy Hill Zone and Big Battlefield are too big for singles, but perfect for doubles.

Mario Circuit 8 is fine. The Shy Guys are almost always really really far from the fight anyways. They don't really KO until you're at death percents anyways.

Mushroom Kingdom U, the icicles have a tell of water droplets falling about 3 or so seconds before they fall. The extra hole in the middle is fine, especially considering it's traveling. Skyloft, Wuhu, Delfino all have them afaik, and Reset Bomb Forest's awful 2nd form has it, but it was legal for a while. Nabbit's also pretty easy to mash out of, unless you have a really high percent. I think the only time I was consistently not mashing out was at 160%.

Jungle Hijinxs is TERRIBLE for 1v1, but might be fine for 2v2. I don't 2v2 as much.

Gamer, 5-Volt usually doesn't hit you when you're off stage, even if you're at the same level as her gaze. It needs testing, but it seems mostly fine. The only issue is with randomizing, one of the layouts has a cave of life, but that's nothing a quick No Contest rematch won't fix.

Wuhu's glitch is near impossible to do, works on only Wario and Villager, and you have about a second to do it. It's FINE.

Big Battlefield is too big for 1v1, yeah, but Windy Hill Zone seems perfectly fine. It's not as big as it looks.

Everything else, yeah, I mostly agree.

 

[Terotrous]

I also definitely disagree with the Shy Guys on Mario Circuit Wii U. I don't think I've ever even been hit by one, most of the time they occur in places where they can't hit you.

Also, Port Town Aero Drive is still super banned. Cars kill at like 70% and sometimes with no warning. I got spoiled by the PM version of this stage where the cars have much less power.

I notice that post had no thoughts on Skyloft, so I'll just say it. Skyloft is definitely legal. The general stage layout is good, the stops are all fine, and the timing of the stage just seems to work well. Likely the best travelling stage the series has seen.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Mario Circuit 8 is fine. The Shy Guys are almost always really really far from the fight anyways. They don't really KO until you're at death percents anyways.

Mushroom Kingdom U, the icicles have a tell of water droplets falling about 3 or so seconds before they fall. The extra hole in the middle is fine, especially considering it's traveling. Skyloft, Wuhu, Delfino all have them afaik, and Reset Bomb Forest's ****ty 2nd form has it, but it was legal for a while.

Jungle Hijinxs is TERRIBLE for 1v1, but might be fine for 2v2. I don't 2v2 as much.

Gamer, 5-Volt usually doesn't hit you when you're off stage, even if you're at the same level as her gaze. It needs testing, but it seems mostly fine. The only issue is with randomizing, one of the layouts has a cave of life, but that's nothing a quick No Contest rematch won't fix.

Wuhu's glitch is near impossible to do, works on only Wario and Villager, and you have about a second to do it. It's FINE.

Big Battlefield is too big for 1v1, yeah, but Windy Hill Zone seems perfectly fine. It's not as big as it looks.

Everything else, yeah, I mostly agree.

5-Volt's hitbox seems to affect the same regions as her sight, so if one gets caught off-stage, she attacks off the stage

For Mushroom Kingdom U, the fact that icicles are predicable means that players can grab, throw towards the icicle and make some usually impossible combos. There's also Nabbit, which functions like the Boss Galaga item.

Jungle Hijinxs in 2v2s should be tried, but I think it's mostly leaning towards the ban right now.

Never said anything against Wuhu Island, but yeah, that extremely unlikely situation to perform the glitch is quite nearly impossible in a tournament anyway.

Windy Hill may be fine in 1v1s, but it is too big to be considered neutral in those matches, while it's fine as a neutral for 2v2s

I also definitely disagree with the Shy Guys on Mario Circuit Wii U. I don't think I've ever even been hit by one, most of the time they occur in places where they can't hit you.

Also, Port Town Aero Drive is still super banned. Cars kill at like 70% and sometimes with no warning. I got spoiled by the PM version of this stage where the cars have much less power.

I notice that post had no thoughts on Skyloft, so I'll just say it. Skyloft is definitely legal. The general stage layout is good, the stops are all fine, and the timing of the stage just seems to work well. Likely the best travelling stage the series has seen.

I knew I forgot some things! But yeah, you stole my words: Skyloft is fine. But for Mario Circuit, I guess I just ran out of luck....

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ The Stoopid Unikorn I have a topic on Mario Circuit here if you want some reading material. </plug>

The Shy Guys in particular don't kill particularly early, if you're at 135% you're living on borrowed time anyway.

 

[Piford]

After some research (by which I mean playing), here are my results:

• Wrecking Crew is banned (could be allowed on experimentals) due to the bombs stopping certain attacks and combos, the exploding walls has hit boxes and allows for easier combos for pretty much anyone. The platforms don't help either because the one on the top is pretty close to the ceiling
• Mushroom Kingdom U is obviously banned. Even if Nabbit wasn't around, icicles can freeze people, interrupting whatever they doing and the Meringue Clouds section has a huge hole in the middles, giving a third bottom blastzones for spikes and meteors
• Mario Circuit 8 is banned. The transformations themselves are okay, but the Shy Guys ruined it, as they can KO and can even combo into each other, giving a good amount of damage
• Luigi's Mansion's pillars work just like Wrecking Crew's bombs, but they don't create chained explosions in an entire line, so its legality is quite debatable
• Jungle Hijinxs is a possible ban, due to how either of the two planes can sink and cause KOs (especially when helpless)
• Kongo Jungle 64 seems to be back to its 64 size, making it legal for singles again.
• Norfair's lava is easier to avoid, so it is a possible counter (especially in experimentals)
• Port Town Aero Dive and Pokemon Stadium 2 remain unchanged from Brawl
• Wooly World is a walk-off 66% of the time, and and incredibly awkward weight influced platform layout with a huge gap below, creating over-reliance on meteors when in the air (which will most likely be where you'll be most of the time). BANNED!
• Orbital Gate Assault is a tough one. It's like Poke Floats, but much less chaotic, and yet people don't see that. I believe it is an obvious counter on experimentals, but its position in actual tournaments remains to be seen. Requires more examination.
• Kalos Pokemon League is broken due to the way Pokemons interfere (Rayquaza, Wailord and whoever made that metal goop are notable example). Otherwise, it was a perfect counterpick. Experimentals may pick that stage as a counter for now.
• Gamer is banned because of 5-Volt. She KOs sooner than most KO moves and requires you to stay in the ground to get out of her vision faster, ruining everyone's strategies but Little Mac's (who can also get KOd by her when "trying" to recover)
• Garden of Hope is a perfect counter for experimantals, but legality in actual tourneys is debatable due to the Peckish Aristocrab (despite his predictability)
• Duck Hunt is a counter, since taking down the birds is an optional "mini-game" of this stage and rewards nothing but avoiding the Dog's laugh. It also has a very basic layout, giving it possibility to rise as a neutral at some point.
• Pilotwings's camping is notoriously broken in singles, but let's try it in doubles before perma-banning it.
• Wuhu Island has this glitch with Ness's down throw, but it is quite difficult to get it and could be patched, so it's a possible counter.
• Windy Hill Zone and Big Battlefield are too big for singles, but perfect for doubles.
• Despite the lack of chaingrabs in this game, walk-offs are still terrible in a competitive enviromment, so they're still banned.
• PAC-LAND is the worst stage in this game by a HUGE lead.

I'll try to comment on some stuff people haven't mentioned.

Kongo Jungle 64 size wasn't an issue in 64 not because it was smaller than in Melee (I think it was actually bigger, but don't quote me on that), but because there weren't as extreme characters like Ganondorf and Peach. It's now smaller than Melee though

The Icicles creating combos would actually be a good thing. It would reward player skill and awareness. Banning Mushroom Kingdom U because of the icicles creating combo would be the same as banning Battlefield because the platforms create combos.

Wooly World is only a walk-off half of the time. Yes 2/3 transformations are walk-offs, but the air transformation happens twice as often as the other ones. So for every cycle it goes green->air->red->air repeat. Also, the varies from pretty small to non-existant depending on platform heights.

Along with what other people said of course.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'll try to comment on some stuff people haven't mentioned.

Kongo Jungle 64 size wasn't an issue in 64 not because it was smaller than in Melee (I think it was actually bigger, but don't quote me on that), but because there weren't as extreme characters like Ganondorf and Peach. It's now smaller than Melee though

The Icicles creating combos would actually be a good thing. It would reward player skill and awareness. Banning Mushroom Kingdom U because of the icicles creating combo would be the same as banning Battlefield because the platforms create combos.

Wooly World is only a walk-off half of the time. Yes 2/3 transformations are walk-offs, but the air transformation happens twice as often as the other ones. So for every cycle it goes green->air->red->air repeat. Also, the varies from pretty small to non-existant depending on platform heights.

Along with what other people said of course.

There's also Nabbit for Mushroom Kingdom U, who seems to never leave until he nabs someone and gets away with it. Nice explaination about the icicles too!

Wooly World's aerial transformation is extremely complex and barely has anything (rocket, cloud plaftorms, there we go! a Yoshi stage), making it seemingly difficult to move around.... but it could be just me. Further testing shall be considered.

Kongo Jungle 64 was indeed bigger in Melee, it's size increase is actually the real reason why it was banned for Melee singles, so seeing it back to its original size (and a bit brighter too) gives me hope that we'll see it in singles for Smash U

 

[Terotrous]

Mushroomy Kingdom would be a great stage if not for Nabbit, IMO.

We really need the Mewtwo DLC update to give us the option to turn of Yellow Devil, Ridley, and Nabbit. Metal Face too, I guess, though that stage sucks anyway.

 

[Piford]

Mushroomy Kingdom would be a great stage if not for Nabbit, IMO.

We really need the Mewtwo DLC update to give us the option to turn of Yellow Devil, Ridley, and Nabbit. Metal Face too, I guess, though that stage sucks anyway.

Actually Metal Face is the only Stage Boss you can turn off. Going into 8 Player Smash will turn him off, regardless of player number. I believe it also turns off King Bulbin on Bridge of Eldin. I probably should check to see what else turns off in 8-player mode.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I do think that Nabbit is a real annoyance for MKU and is actual a real case for killing momentum. I'm usually lenient on easy to predict hazards, but Nabbit is an easy hazard that just grates on you, and doesn't go away as fast as would be preferred. Otherwise, the stage is fine.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@ The Stoopid Unikorn I have a topic on Mario Circuit here if you want some reading material. </plug>

The Shy Guys in particular don't kill particularly early, if you're at 135% you're living on borrowed time anyway.

Interesting, but the glitches (That KO Punch thing was hilarious though)

 

[Jiggsbomb]

Wooly world should be banned. Not because of the walkoff in the beginning. It should be banned because off the extremley miniscule space you can fight on. Also characters like little mac and ganondorf ( Especially little mac) are completely unviable on that stage.
I'm all for a big stage list in the beginning, because it's helpful for the metagame. But come on! Wooly world should definitely be banned.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Wooly world should be banned. Not because of the walkoff in the beginning. It should be banned because off the extremley miniscule space you can fight on. Also characters like little mac and ganondorf ( Especially little mac) are completely unviable on that stage.
I'm all for a big stage list in the beginning, because it's helpful for the metagame. But come on! Wooly world should definitely be banned.

I find it ironic that a Jigglypuff main wants to ban Wooly World, considering this seems to be one of her best stages.

 

[19_]

There's also Nabbit for Mushroom Kingdom U, who seems to never leave until he nabs someone and gets away with it. Nice explaination about the icicles too!

Wooly World's aerial transformation is extremely complex and barely has anything (rocket, cloud plaftorms, there we go! a Yoshi stage), making it seemingly difficult to move around.... but it could be just me. Further testing shall be considered.

Kongo Jungle 64 was indeed bigger in Melee, it's size increase is actually the real reason why it was banned for Melee singles, so seeing it back to its original size (and a bit brighter too) gives me hope that we'll see it in singles for Smash U

MKU is a very hard sell with many players as it has so much going on with it. The hasards even Nabbit included can be avoidable
(I heard there are tells on the geysers but I have not seen them), but unfortunately even with tells the could be off screen in some cases. I'm not trying to say it is not legal, I think will be a great counterpick, but it is one of the harder stages to convince people that it can be.

I honestly have not played the Wii U version yet, however I believe this still does not mean I can't vow for more legal stages.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

MKU is a very hard sell with many players as it has so much going on with it. The hasards even Nabbit included can be avoidable
(I heard there are tells on the geysers but I have not seen them), but unfortunately even with tells the could be off screen in some cases. I'm not trying to say it is not legal, I think will be a great counterpick, but it is one of the harder stages to convince people that it can be.

I honestly have not played the Wii U version yet, however I believe this still does not mean I can't vow for more legal stages.

I played, and I can tell you, that stage has a lot of things happening! I think it will most likely get banned and if not, not a lot of people will actually choose it anyway......

 

[19_]

I played, and I can tell you, that stage has a lot of things happening! I think it will most likely get banned and if not, not a lot of people will actually choose it anyway......

I definatlly understand that. No offence to anyone here, I have seen may argument saying these stages obviously not broken and again I agree, but it needs to be said that people will still still be uncomfortable with it the way these stages are presented.

Never give up, but don't force it down their throuhts.

Give them something they can swallow.

 

[Locke 06]

Wooly world should be banned. Not because of the walkoff in the beginning. It should be banned because off the extremley miniscule space you can fight on. Also characters like little mac and ganondorf ( Especially little mac) are completely unviable on that stage.
I'm all for a big stage list in the beginning, because it's helpful for the metagame. But come on! Wooly world should definitely be banned.

Stage. Striking.

I'm of the opinion legal until broken. Awarding awareness and stage usage should be encouraged. Part of the reason why Arena Ferox was fantastic in the 3DS version.

 

[Fenrir VII]

one thing I'll say as a prior TO...

We can argue til we're blue in the face on what should/shouldn't be legal. Ultimately each TO will decide, based on feedback of players around them, which stages ARE legal.

If the TO has "stupid" stages legal, they get hammered by players like crazy using general "fighting the stage" arguments, and often they just get warn down into submission.

Be vocal on tournament threads. If you think a stage should be legal/illegal, work with the community around you to try to make it happen.


Being a TO means dealing with a ton of (frankly) whiny players that want to blame losses on anything other than player skill. That's what you're combating.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Being a TO means dealing with a ton of (frankly) whiny players that want to blame losses on anything other than player skill. That's what you're combating.

Those Johners are really making it hard to be a TO, but we should at least work on finding the stages that should, in theory, be applied in all TOs stage lists

 

[19_]

Stage. Striking.

I'm of the opinion legal until broken. Awarding awareness and stage usage should be encouraged. Part of the reason why Arena Ferox was fantastic in the 3DS version.

But that would essentially mean little mac and ganon players would have one less strike than everyone else. Wooly World is kinda broken in that regard, unless you could prove it to me otherwise. I honestly don't think WW would legal due to temporary but long walkoff and the very campy and randomized aerial layout. You may get away with it in doubles perhaps.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Those Johners are really making it hard to be a TO, but we should at least work on finding the stages that should, in theory, be applied in all TOs stage lists

That's actually what I was trying to do with this:

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Kongo Jungle 64
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island

Luigi's Mansion (destroyable caves of life. mildly one-sided toward/against some chars)
Windy Hill Zone (similar to wooly. Big stage with a bit of stupid in the asymmetry, gravity, and springs)
Mario Circuit (Pretty fair but toeing that stupid line with stage kills, ceiling, etc)
Garden of Hope (easily avoidable crab, destructible terrain doesn't do much. Only issue I see is the dropping platforms)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (technically fair. That wind transformation completely changes the match however, which I dislike)
Norfair (predictable hazards, multiple grabbable ledges, and camping is promoted)
Woolly World (big stage with walkoffs, dropping platforms, caves of life, etc. Technically fair but somewhat dumb)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit is stupidly annoying. The spiny fish can kill. I just can't see a serious match here)
Orbital Gate Assault (More hazards than most stages, strange platform layouts. Transitions can screw certain chars)
Kalos Pokémon League (I actually consider this stage fair... but the hazards and metal just tip the 'dumb' scale)
Pilotwings (I was on the fence about the cave hitting you... the camping makes it pretty bad)
Wrecking Crew (Circle camping galore... otherwise I like the stage)
Big Battlefield (I really don't think this is viable or necessary for a 1v1... too big, campy, etc)
Skyworld (Cave of life... no edges when destroyed... other random hijinks, etc)
Port Town Aero Dive ("alright I'm winning!" Invisible car hit > dead... : / )

Mario Galaxy (Permanent walkoff and very big)
Coliseum (Permanent walkoff and very big)
Boxing Ring (Permanent walkoff, light camping, and very big)
Wii Fit Studio (Permanent walkoff and big)
Gamer (Mom = random and OP)
Onett (Permanent walkoff and car shenanigans)
Yoshi's Island (Permanent walkoff and spin block/hill shenanigans)
Bridge of Eldin (Permanent walkoff and super campy)
Mario Circuit (Brawl) (Permanent walkoff and kart shenanigans)
Pac-Land (Permanent scrolling walkoff and just annoying in general)
Flat Zone X (Permanent walkoff and stage hates you)
Gaur Plain (Permanent walkoff and you hate stage)
Wily Castle (would be great if yellow devil weren't around)
Pyrosphere (I seriously....seriously wish I could make a case for this stage to be legal)
Temple
Jungle Hijinxs
75m
Palutena's Temple
The Great Cave Offensive

I don't think anyone can pose a strong argument against the green stages being legal in some way (starter or CP) that isn't "I don't like it" or "the stage list should be small" (which I think is dumb)

The yellow ones... most of us seem to like several of them and dislike others for various reasons. I could see 2-4ish of them being legal. Orange stages are seemingly going to be banned for 1v1 and red stages aren't worth it.

But that would essentially mean little mac and ganon players would have one less strike than everyone else. Wooly World is kinda broken in that regard, unless you could prove it to me otherwise. I honestly don't think WW would legal due to temporary but long walkoff and the very campy and randomized aerial layout. You may get away with it in doubles perhaps.

You could also make the argument that anybody playing against Lil Mac has to "waste" a ban on FD. it's all trades, man. (although I do not currently support Wooly being legal personally)

 

[Locke 06]

But that would essentially mean little mac and ganon players would have one less strike than everyone else. Wooly World is kinda broken in that regard, unless you could prove it to me otherwise. I honestly don't think WW would legal due to temporary but long walkoff and the very campy and randomized aerial layout. You may get away with it in doubles perhaps.

Because 2 characters have 1 less strike than everyone else doesn't make the stage broken. I also wouldn't say they're completely unviable as the walkoffs get rid of one of their biggest weaknesses, their recoveries. I play a character that probably does okay on that stage, but it's worth trying out to see how many characters hate the stage.

I think Wii Fit Studio and the Coliseum could be very very interesting stages due to their platform variations, but the walkoffs are the only things holding them back (Mario Galaxy too.... maybe... @ Fenrir VII - I think they deserve some consideration which would slip them into the orange set). Are walkoffs that bad? (as I'm thinking about it... yeah, they might be that bad in a competitive set where the only objective is winning :/)

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think Wii Fit Studio and the Coliseum could be very very interesting stages due to their platform variations, but the walkoffs are the only things holding them back (Mario Galaxy too.... maybe... @ Fenrir VII - I think they deserve some consideration which would slip them into the orange set). Are walkoffs that bad? (as I'm thinking about it... yeah, they might be that bad in a competitive set where the only objective is winning :/)

So in theory, walkoffs are completely fair. But yes when you throw money on the line and tell somebody they can kill you at 0% from a grab if they just stand over here... yeah it's gotten bad in the past (I personally have experienced edge camping in old Melee tourneys... heck I've DONE it before).

The other strike against them is that edgeguarding really should be a factor in Smash, considering how important and different that situation is from other fighting games.

Honestly I'm not 100% against them, but I do think the concerns are warranted in any non-friendly match


All that said, I will ABSOLUTELY play you on Coliseum sometime. cool stage. (but f* Mario galaxy)

 

[19_]

Because 2 characters have 1 less strike than everyone else doesn't make the stage broken. I also wouldn't say they're completely unviable as the walkoffs get rid of one of their biggest weaknesses, their recoveries. I play a character that probably does okay on that stage, but it's worth trying out to see how many characters hate the stage.

I think Wii Fit Studio and the Coliseum could be very very interesting stages due to their platform variations, but the walkoffs are the only things holding them back (Mario Galaxy too.... maybe... @ Fenrir VII - I think they deserve some consideration which would slip them into the orange set). Are walkoffs that bad? (as I'm thinking about it... yeah, they might be that bad in a competitive set where the only objective is winning :/)

I honestly think walkoffs are still dumb, as a casual player I could even see how polarizing it could be back in brawl. Of course this is smash 4 but even so, watching Ness and other characters with crazy kill throws I can't see it happening. To me camping walkoffs will always be polarizing unless there is some extreme mechanic changes to the game in the future. Not to mention it is lame to watch.

On Wooly World, I still think it is too campy due to the layout, but testing it is the best way to see otherwise so I won't stop you.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario Circuit U should be banned. It takes away entire sections of the blast zone in transformations, has a walk off transformation. I've also been 0 -> death'd by a Bthrow into Shy Guy 1, Shy Guy 2, and then Shy Guy 3. I don't know why you want to play on a stage with large unavoidable caves of life and death hazards for some reason.

 

[19_]

Mario Circuit U should be banned. It takes away entire sections of the blast zone in transformations, has a walk off transformation. I've also been 0 -> death'd by a Bthrow into Shy Guy 1, Shy Guy 2, and then Shy Guy 3. I don't know why you want to play on a stage with large unavoidable caves of life and death hazards for some reason.

Could you show us gameplay? Not saying your wrong I've just been on the fence about it for so long. I really feel uncomfortable about it this stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Could you show us gameplay? Not saying your wrong I've just been on the fence about it for so long. I really feel uncomfortable about it this stage.

I was playing friendlies when the game first came out so I didn't think I would need a replay later on . I'll try to get footage later if I remember.

 

[Locke 06]

The other strike against them is that edgeguarding really should be a factor in Smash, considering how important and different that situation is from other fighting games.

Honestly I'm not 100% against them, but I do think the concerns are warranted in any non-friendly match


All that said, I will ABSOLUTELY play you on Coliseum sometime. cool stage. (but f* Mario galaxy)

While I agree in that edge guarding should be a factor in Smash, you could say the same thing about platforms and Final Destination. Or moving platforms in general. It makes a similar counterpicking strategy towards those that excel in that field vs those that don't. Plus, you have an interesting stage control dynamic where one character is on the brink of death and the other has a ton of room. (there are issues with this argument... -cough-backthrowOP-cough- but it's a cool one to think about) Also, the magnifying glass makes it difficult to gauge your positioning. (Is that a good thing? or a bad thing? I dunno... but it's a thing).

The fact that you're not 100% against them, and I think a lot of people aren't, warrant an orange? Out of the red stages, they kind of stick out as stages that have somewhat of a chance. Another note is that there are 11 stages with permanent walkoffs (if you include 75m which... that stage has other issues) out of the 46 stages (Now that I think about it... there were probably 45 stages and then they created big battlefield and miiverse) which makes a decent percentage.

yes pls. Let's add it to our random list for fun.

 

[darkspatan117]

I don't know if it was mentioned already but the barrel in KJ64 actually refresh your jumps and Peach Float

 

[Piford]

I don't know if it was mentioned already but the barrel in KJ64 actually refresh your jumps and Peach Float

It has; It doesn't really appear to be an issue.