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Isn't this Brawl? Kind of hard to tell from the gif quality. Also, I'm not sure if you're complaining about it not killing the first time, or if you're complaining that MK can't escape from it. Either way, water changed what Diddy had to know and do, but it was still skill that determined the winner here.
Alright time to go through all this...
On every other stage, that MK would have just plain died more then likely from such a low spike. At least there was the chance to come back if ADHD messed up. Also, this is why you need STAGE KNOWLEDGE. Look how ADHD knew what to do in that situation. It goes to show if you study a stage you can do amazing things with it.
I do not plan on banning a stage ever for Little Mac. From personal experience he can still fight there, but either way he is a VERY unique character. If you start taking out every stage Little Mac is bad on our tier list is gonna skew in insane way.
"Moving around too much." How is that defined? What is moving around too little? What is moving around just enough? There's no way you can actually define that enough to make a ban or something of any kind.
I personally don't care for Halberd, but the hazards are incredibly choreographed. It is SO easy to know when they are coming and avoid them.
This stage plays JUST fine. The large majority of the stage is again of perfectly playable stages, and with chain grabs gone the second transformation is even more tame now then ever before.
I'm 100% for Pilotwings being banned. Stalling there really is way too powerful for this stage to ever be legal.
Delfino - I assume its MK getting drowned by Diddy. Diddy was being resourceful. If your opponent can use water against and you can't handle it, its your laziness or lack of skill.
Really interesting discussion here, Fenrir. I absolutely agree with the position of KJ64 and Castle Siege. I feel fairly confident about Luigi's Mansion's viability, but I am unsure that any of the other yellows or oranges would work. There's too many issues that have to be considered and just having issues would be enough for me to not consider it a legal tournament friendly stage for all.
Don't have a problem with the list of stages (pretty much just my green stages + 2 yellows, which makes sense), but I do question the placement of Wuhu, Delfino, and Halberd (stages that can conceivably kill you, albeit rarely) as starters above Lylat, T&C, Duck Hunt, and KJ64.... and even Castle Siege, which really can't... Shrug just my 2 cents.
Sure, I don't mind explaining those:
Ah so you're trying to target more balance, rather than removing randomness. Makes sense.
slimjim
, I get your point but disagree with the examples.
Hahaha my example section was originally longer until I realized the metagame isn't developed enough yet to have examples strong enough to emphasize my point. Halberd isn't bannable of course, it just isn't starter-material. I would argue the "best" flying platform stage would be the best 7th, just looking at the transformations and how they function.@
I don't think KJ64 is "much jankier" than T&C... nor do I feel it favors Sheik vs Robin more than T&C does. Heck she can run more on T&C than she can on KJ64 (and I'd include KJ on a 5 stage list before T&C)
I don't know of a reason why any character would need to strike any of the flying platform stages (other than they just don't like them)
Considering the number of infinite walk-off killer combos in Brawl, there's no way Castle Siege is worse in 4 than it was in Brawl. imo the game physics have little impact on the transformation phase. I can actually see your point on Halberd, but I don't think it's bannable.
But you raise a good point... If we want a 7 stage strike list... we need 7 "neutral" stages that are different enough to warrant additional strikes.
Imo, SV, BF, FD, LC, KJ64, and T&C are an amazing set of 6 stages... for the 7th, would it be better to go with the "best" flying platform stage (wuhu, skyloft, or delfino), Duck Hunt, or Castle Siege? I really don't think Halberd should get in over any of those 5 choices, for balance reasons and random event reasons.
Preaching to the choir here about Duck Hunt. (and to note, I also favor a 5-stage starter list...just playing the other side for a bit)
You put Final Destination as your first stage. It heavily favors some characters over others significantly more than Skyloft, Wuhu Island, and Delphino or really any stage. I would say its most polarizing stage.
Dave's Stupid Rule already says a player cannot counterpick a stage they previously won on, unless you meant something more restrictive.
I understand this, but this point is moot because in the 5-stage starter list it gets struck when needed. I don't have it as first in any sort of meaningful list besides it being the stage I decided to type first (note how I didn't say my lists of 5 or 7 starters were in any particular order). I did not say it was most neutral or even neutral in general. It just proves to be a good starter because in a 5-stage starter list it will just get struck almost every time it would matter anyways. In a 7-stage starter list however, 3 strikes almost isn't enough for some characters.
But if it's going to get struck anyways, why not put a stage that actually has a chance of picked anyways?
Evidence that FD is going to be struck in all Smash 4 matches over any stage that isn't Battlefield or Smashville?
I know from my time on Anther's Ladder, I've gone to Smashville, Duck Hunt, and Lylat Cruise on starter. I've also gone to Pokemon Stadium 2, Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, Castle Siege, and Town and City as Counterpicks, and Gentlemened to Skyloft once. I have never played on Final Destination (or Halberd, but it's never been struck at least) at all and it is almost always struck even as a counterpick. So from my personal experience with Smash on the Wii U (there haven't been any real tournaments by me yet), Final Destination is a pretty poor choice for a starter over at least Duck Hunt.
win or lose, no repeats, also a lot of tournaments use modified DSR which allows you to counterpick the stage you won on in game 1 for game 5
It has been gone over many times how extremely hard it is to perform this and how it will never happen in actual tournament play since no player would put themselves in that situation. It only works on Ness against Wario and Villager, and requires extremely precise inputs. They just happened to create all the right situations by accident. Also it will likely be patched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN8-9uRyqLY
Dthrow is not a precise input, but it could be my bias showing. I don't want Wuhu for the sheer fact the boat causes AN AUTOMATIC KO and the pot hole/walkoff part of the stage. The bug (I assume it has to be one) will be fixed no doubt, but does not alleviate my fears at all. Fenrir_VII had a pretty good list bar Wuhu. I wish Sakurai could add a stage freeze or remove stage hazard setting to this game, then so many more stages could be viable.
It is a precise input since you have to be in an exact spot and you have about a second to do it, and if you nail everything perfectly it still doesn't work consistently. Plus if you're villager or wario playing against Ness you should be able to avoid getting down thrown for a second.
As said here there is a stigma about tournament play where only the simplest stages are allowed, but that is only because it is a habit that players and spectators used to. This comes with the nasty side effect scarring away more talented players as well as viewers who would want to be interested in competitive play.
Some matchups may arguably find FD more neutral than BF. On top of that, FD should be in a starter list because having 5 starters with platforms significantly benefits characters who do well with platforms. With FD in a 5 stage starter list people who want flat stages (lil mac?) will be able to strike to T&C or SV consistently.
If you're talking about getting hit by the front of the boat, that's completely intentional; it's just like in Pirate Ship. You have time to jump out of the water before hitting the front of the boat, and if you're afraid of getting meteored by the boat, just land on it instead of sweetspotting the ledge.
The problem with the yellow devil is camping behind him, and then punishing the player who wasn't camping for dodging his square shifty thing. Also no players would agree to defeat him, as the yellow devil will give the explosion to whoever got the last hit, meaning its a dominant strategy to wait to hit him until the last hit. That means that no one would hit him at all.
Well, it's a counterpick against projectile users, then. That's, uh, kind of the point of a counterpick, isn't it?
Yellow Devil isn't too disruptive by himself, or I guess it's more accurate to say he's not that powerful, but his presence leads to undesirable gameplay. Camping behind him is a powerful tactic since he can't hit backwards so you basically have a giant wall of "hell no" between you and the opponent, then there's his weird movement animation that takes up like 80% of the stage and damages to boot.
