Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[CatRaccoonBL]

I HIGHLY disagree. It's a long, flat stage.

The platforms only barely interact with play. They play basically the same.

Unless I'm experiencing a strange visual effect, Smashville is actually decently short. At least compared with Town & City. Though, I suppose that doesn't stop the flat part.

Anyway, I suppose this is an agree to disagree situation. Or at least, until further testing is done.
Also, why did you chose Smashville to be the starter and Town & City to be the counterpick?

 

[san.]

Town & City's ground platform is marginally longer than Smashville's. It also seems to be slightly higher as you can die off the top and at the edge at an earlier percentage.

 

[Piford]

So I did some testing on Smashville versus Town and City size wise and here are the results.

Smashville is 60% the size of FD with roughly the same blast zones as FD.

Town and City is is 85% FD with blast zones slightly smaller than FD.

So Town and City's size is about 1.4x larger than Smashville, but with blast zones that kill about 8% earlier.

This is based on R.O.B. using moves to kill Mario and Rolling to Measure and falling and whatnot. The most precise with what I had available. Platforms were not included in measurements.

 

[Raziek]

Unless I'm experiencing a strange visual effect, Smashville is actually decently short. At least compared with Town & City. Though, I suppose that doesn't stop the flat part.

Anyway, I suppose this is an agree to disagree situation. Or at least, until further testing is done.
Also, why did you chose Smashville to be the starter and Town & City to be the counterpick?

Less variance. The platforms on T&C can leave extremely quickly, potentially carrying someone off.

That, and Smashville being generally loved from Brawl. You could easily pick either and it wouldn't matter that much.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So I did some testing on Smashville versus Town and City size wise and here are the results.

Smashville is 60% the size of FD with roughly the same blast zones as FD.

Town and City is is 85% FD with blast zones slightly smaller than FD.

So Town and City's size is about 1.4x larger than Smashville, but with blast zones that kill about 8% earlier.

This is based on R.O.B. using moves to kill Mario and Rolling to Measure and falling and whatnot. The most precise with what I had available. Platforms were not included in measurements.

So Town & City is indeed bigger than Smashville, but smaller than FD. So I guess the stage's size doesn't really influence whether it's counter or not.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay so with some serious testing done today and last night, Hypest Tournaments are going to be banning Pilotwings. The camping issues are very real and incredibly easy to do. We were using characters that some of us had not even played before (Jigglypuff, Kirby, Olimar, Meta Knight, Pit/Dark Pit) and were able to avoid hits and make the match terrible completely within reason.

Sharking can be used as a valid excuse to avoid the stalling clause most rulesets have, and when you are going under the stage or using it this way you really are using it to gain a better position. Before someone mentions a scrooging rule, you don't have to grab the ledge on the other side to make this work either.

This stage definitely has to be banned.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm just going to throw in my vote for #banpilotwings. There's lots of comparable stages that don't have that massive camping threat so I really see no reason to put up with it.


When it comes to Town and City / Smashville, I'm in favour of having both (though I agree that T&C is likely CP). It's true they are a little similar, but different platform layout matters quite a bit and there aren't a ton of other stages of that type with stages like Pyrosphere being ruined by Ridley and Pokemon Stadium 2 having transformations.

 

[Piford]

I'm just going to throw in my vote for #banpilotwings. There's lots of comparable stages that don't have that massive camping threat so I really see no reason to put up with it.


When it comes to Town and City / Smashville, I'm in favour of having both (though I agree that T&C is likely CP). It's true they are a little similar, but different platform layout matters quite a bit and there aren't a ton of other stages of that type with stages like Pyrosphere being ruined by Ridley and Pokemon Stadium 2 having transformations.

The Pokemon Stadium 2 transformations are all fine this time, none of them are as bad as Rock and Fire in the original, and they allow you to do some cool stuff.

 

[Terotrous]

The Pokemon Stadium 2 transformations are all fine this time, none of them are as bad as Rock and Fire in the original, and they allow you to do some cool stuff.

That's fine, I'm not saying to ban PS2, I'm just saying that due to the transformations it and T&C don't really occupy the same niche (in PM, where there are no transformations, you could maybe argue that T&C would be redundant with Smashville and PS2 on the list).


EDIT: I can see where my post was misleading. I just meant that Pyrosphere was a ruined stage. PS2 is simply different.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I don't see what's so good with PS2.

Sure, Ground is fine now and Electric isn't so bad, but Flying and Ice are just so disruptive imo.

Especially Ice.

 

[Piford]

That's fine, I'm not saying to ban PS2, I'm just saying that due to the transformations it and T&C don't really occupy the same niche (in PM, where there are no transformations, you could maybe argue that T&C would be redundant with Smashville and PS2 on the list).


EDIT: I can see where my post was misleading. I just meant that Pyrosphere was a ruined stage. PS2 is simply different.

Oh okay. I feel like Town and City could be redundant if it was just City, but the Town portion is significantly different from any layout we've seen in a smash game.

Edit:

I don't see what's so good with PS2.

Sure, Ground is fine now and Electric isn't so bad, but Flying and Ice are just so disruptive imo.

Especially Ice.

Ice is like the best one. Simple layout that allows for sliding smashes and tilts.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We're now running this list in Nova Scotia:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kongo 64
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Counterpick:
Halberd
Omega Gaur Plains*
City & Town
Skyloft
Windy Hill
Wooly World
Castle Siege

If you're not going to run regular FD, then run Omega Gaur Plains as a starter. I don't see why FD shouldn't be in the list of starters, as it's the most basic stage that exist, hasn't changed for the past 2 games in its flat layout, and has been working in the starters list for the past 2 games.

I'd put either Wuhu or Delfino as a counterpick and leave the other one as a starter. One stage that moves around an entire island is enough, both also have some mildly intrusive landing areas.

I think Town and City is fine as a counterpick. Platforms leaving present some minor problems.

I'm not a big fan of Skyloft, some areas are janky. Wooly World and Windy Hill seem to big, in my opinon, but it might be worth testing them.

It's a good stage list though, and that FD link you provided is pretty good to give us an idea of how Omega stages can be classified. Thanks!

 

[Raziek]

FD does not belong in starter lists, it remains one of the most polarizing stages in the game.

I recorded pick/ban data at one of my tournaments. FD was never started on, and had double the ban-rate of any other stage, and I had WALKOFFS legal that tourney.

Duck Hunt is in adequate replacement for FD as a starter.

 

[Terotrous]

FD does not belong in starter lists, it remains one of the most polarizing stages in the game.

Duck Hunt is in adequate replacement for FD as a starter.

Is Duck Hunt actually less polarizing than FD? The height of the tree on the left also kinda suggests CP to me, though I'll admit I haven't tested it extensively or seen a lot of matches on it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Is Duck Hunt actually less polarizing than FD? The height of the tree on the left also kinda suggests CP to me, though I'll admit I haven't tested it extensively or seen a lot of matches on it.

There's also the bush, which can turn out to be useful, not to mention the Dog acting as another platform.

If it were up to me, the Dog's laugh alone makes it a counter.

 

[Piford]

Is Duck Hunt actually less polarizing than FD? The height of the tree on the left also kinda suggests CP to me, though I'll admit I haven't tested it extensively or seen a lot of matches on it.

I think that even if the tree platform is high, its still not as polarizing as FD's lack of platforms.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I hate duck hunt as a starter... It's not unfair per se (although the asymmetry doesn't help) , but it's wonky as anything. The dog popping up to ruin landings/punishes/combos, the hit delay on the birds, the hiding bushes, and the high platforms... Idk the stage just doesn't work for me.

Also regarding town and city. The stage is slightly shorter than FD, but the platforms make the standable space massive for a 1v1. The platforms in the 3 platform transition are also really high... Reminds me of brinstar 64 in a way. I'm ok with the stage as a cp, but I have always considered it "doubles smashville"

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I hate duck hunt as a starter... It's not unfair per se (although the asymmetry doesn't help) , but it's wonky as anything. The dog popping up to ruin landings/punishes/combos, the hit delay on the birds, the hiding bushes, and the high platforms... Idk the stage just doesn't work for me.

Also regarding town and city. The stage is slightly shorter than FD, but the platforms make the standable space massive for a 1v1. The platforms in the 3 platform transition are also really high... Reminds me of brinstar 64 in a way. I'm ok with the stage as a cp, but I have always considered it "doubles smashville"

Could be counter for singles, neutral for doubles

Also, I agree with Pilotwings's ban for singles, but we should try it in 2v2s, maybe it will cancel the camping possibilites, just like Kongo Jungle 64 in Melee......

 

[DavemanCozy]

FD does not belong in starter lists, it remains one of the most polarizing stages in the game.

I recorded pick/ban data at one of my tournaments. FD was never started on, and had double the ban-rate of any other stage, and I had WALKOFFS legal that tourney.

Duck Hunt is in adequate replacement for FD as a starter.

Based on one tourney, it's suddenly a CP?

I wasn't saying the stage's balance isn't skewed, it's obviously banned by players when picking for a reason. No Peach main in this game wants to play against a Sonic or Fox in FD, or anyone playing vs Little Mac doesn't want to deal with him in FD. That's the nature of counter-picking though. I don't think one tourney's data should relegate FD to counter-pick. Sure, it favors certain playstyles and characters, but most stages (even some starters) do that in some way too.

Anyways, I'm not arguing that you should change your ruleset, just giving my side. It's your tourney in the end, let us know how the stagelist works out.

 

[Terotrous]

Well, no, the idea is just that neutral stages should have generally balanced layouts that don't affect matchups too much. A totally flat stage with no platforms actually does skew some matches quite a lot. I've been arguing for a while that FD is actually a counterpick stage in PM, and it might well be in this game too simply because Little Mac exists.

 

[Raziek]

FD has ALWAYS been polarizing.

This is not a ground-breaking new revelation.

 

[ChampKing]

Neutral stages don't exist. The whole starter/counterpick is bad because what makes one stage better than another for starting a game.

 

[Dragoomba]

Why are people still pro-Pokemon Stadium 2? I thought the competitive Smash community was very anti-gimmick when it comes to stages.

Well, I guess I'm not that surprised considering there's people that actually want custom moves to be legal.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why are people still pro-Pokemon Stadium 2? I thought the competitive Smash community was very anti-gimmick when it comes to stages.

Well, I guess I'm not that surprised considering there's people that actually want custom moves to be legal.

And yet, Pokemon Stadium is a counter in Melee

Seriously, the Smash community usually allows certain gimmicks IF they do not disrupt gameplay drastically enough to be considered broken

 

[ChampKing]

Why are people still pro-Pokemon Stadium 2? I thought the competitive Smash community was very anti-gimmick when it comes to stages.

Well, I guess I'm not that surprised considering there's people that actually want custom moves to be legal.

Depends on where you go. Some people are really liberal like most people in this thread while some are more conservative with what is allowed. Pokemon Stadium 2 was always 50/50 anyway.

 

[Raziek]

Neutral stages don't exist. The whole starter/counterpick is bad because what makes one stage better than another for starting a game.

This is essentially the underlying philosophy behind Full-List Stage Striking, but it is not commonly run in practice due to the additional hassle of actually getting people to do it.

 

[Dragoomba]

And yet, Pokemon Stadium is a counter in Melee

Seriously, the Smash community usually allows certain gimmicks IF they do not disrupt gameplay drastically enough to be considered broken

That's a totally different stage though.

PS1 doesn't have transformations that literally ****s with your movement.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's a totally different stage though.

PS1 doesn't have transformations that literally ****s with your movement.

Apparently, they're better in Smash U.....

 

[chaosmasterro]

Despite the hazards I really wanted mushroom kingdom u and kalos to be legal as CPs. The hd and the music.

On another note. I think players should be allowed to play on a banned stage of agreed on by both players and both players know that it is banned. My two cents

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Despite the hazards I really wanted mushroom kingdom u and kalos to be legal as CPs. The hd and the music.

On another note. I think players should be allowed to play on a banned stage of agreed on by both players and both players know that it is banned. My two cents

That rule is actually used in all Smash games. I don't see how this one should be an exception.

 

[Terotrous]

FD has ALWAYS been polarizing.

This is not a ground-breaking new revelation.

It kind of is though. The concept of moving FD to CP in PM was pretty controversial. Granted, I don't think a lot of people really understand the concept of Starter / CP all that well in the first place.

Neutral stages don't exist. The whole starter/counterpick is bad because what makes one stage better than another for starting a game.

Some stages are obviously closer to neutral than others.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I truly don't see how the arguments that FD is polarizing cannot be applied to nearly any other stage.

Every stage is going to be good for a subset of chars and bad for another subset, even if just a small amount...

Considering we all use the striking system, there's no reason to make FD a cp and replace it with a more random stage (like duck hunt). There are matchups that both players will like FD in, especially now with the prominence of For Glory... Leave it a neutral and let the players/chars that dislike it strike it, rather than allowing nobody to play it in neutral.

 

[Terotrous]

I truly don't see how the arguments that FD is polarizing cannot be applied to nearly any other stage.

Every stage is going to be good for a subset of chars and bad for another subset, even if just a small amount...

Again, some stages are more polarizing than others.

We've learned through experience that generally flat stages with a few platforms (BF, Dreamland 64, Smashville, PS2 PM, etc), tend to be the most fair for the widest variety of characters. The complete absence of platforms on FD is actually a pretty extreme layout in some ways.

 

[Piford]

Why are people still pro-Pokemon Stadium 2? I thought the competitive Smash community was very anti-gimmick when it comes to stages.

Well, I guess I'm not that surprised considering there's people that actually want custom moves to be legal.

A gimmick is something used to stand out, usually to sell for business. If were using the word gimmick to apply to a stage then I can really call anything a gimmick. Platforms on Battlefield can be a gimmick. The lack of platforms on FD can be a gimmick. The moving platform on Smashville could be a gimmick. Ridley on Pyrosphere can be a gimmick. Since there's no base stage and everything is subjective, you can't ban a stage based on a "gimmick." Also if you can't deal with the transformation on PS2 that's your lack of skill not the stage's fault.

 

[Dragoomba]

A gimmick is something used to stand out, usually to sell for business. If were using the word gimmick to apply to a stage then I can really call anything a gimmick. Platforms on Battlefield can be a gimmick. The lack of platforms on FD can be a gimmick. The moving platform on Smashville could be a gimmick. Ridley on Pyrosphere can be a gimmick. Since there's no base stage and everything is subjective, you can't ban a stage based on a "gimmick." Also if you can't deal with the transformation on PS2 that's your lack of skill not the stage's fault.

"If you can't defeat the Yellow Devil on Wily's Castle quick enough for him not to be a problem, that's your lack of skill not the stage's fault!"

Here we go with the exaggerations again, like the "You're fighting against the stage when Ice Climbers chaingrab you on FD" argument. This is from two different people too, which is crazy.

 

[Asdioh]

On another note. I think players should be allowed to play on a banned stage of agreed on by both players and both players know that it is banned. My two cents

Yeah this has always been allowed, unless maybe the TO is super anal. I played m2k on Mushroomy Kingdom in Brawl pools once, that was... an experience.

Well, I guess I'm not that surprised considering there's people that actually want custom moves to be legal.

oh no you didn't!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Mushroom Kingdom U research is done! And with that I'm back to an empty list of requested stages, any takers?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Mushroom Kingdom U research is done! And with that I'm back to an empty list of requested stages, any takers?

I believe pretty much all the remaining stages don't have too much hope...

Hmm...Well...If you are taking requests, how about Garden of Hope? Worth a shot to look at even if it barely has a chance to be legal. I've seen some people scramble for it.

If not that, then I guess the remaining option is orbital gate.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I believe pretty much all the remaining stages don't have too much hope...

Hmm...Well...If you are taking requests, how about Garden of Hope? Worth a shot to look at even if it barely has a chance to be legal. I've seen some people scramble for it.

If not that, then I guess the remaining option is orbital gate.

Garden of Hope it is!

I'll probably cover all the not-completely-stupid stages eventually, including things like Gamer and Kalos Pokemon League, if only for completion's sake. I may skip some of the simpler ones like Town & City, or I may do it anyway and reduce it to "here are the forms, they last X seconds each." IDK yet.

There are also the retro stages to consider. Lava kill % on Norfair, HP of the pillars on Luigi's Mansion, little tidbits like that.

 

[Piford]

"If you can't defeat the Yellow Devil on Wily's Castle quick enough for him not to be a problem, that's your lack of skill not the stage's fault!"

Here we go with the exaggerations again, like the "You're fighting against the stage when Ice Climbers chaingrab you on FD" argument. This is from two different people too, which is crazy.

The difference with the yellow devil is that you are physically fighting the stage when fighting him. But in a theoretical tournament match on Wily Castle, no one would ever attack the yellow devil so he stays for a long time. Its always the dominant strategy to get the last hit on the Yellow Devil, so no player would attack him till the last hit. I would still say its your fault for loosing to the yellow devil since he's so predictable has little to no killpower outside the final blow, which again would never happen. Wily Castle still wouldn't be legal since it contains that overcentralising strategy of getting the last hit on the yellow devil, as well as camping behind the yellow devil as an overcentralising strategy. You not being able to deal with the slightly modified physics is 100% your lack of skill or unwillingness to learn. I fail to see how a player who can deal with and utilize dynamicness that doesn't marginalize player skill or lead to overcentralising strategies is less skillful than one who can't.

Garden of Hope it is!

I'll probably cover all the not-completely-stupid stages eventually, including things like Gamer and Kalos Pokemon League, if only for completion's sake. I may skip some of the simpler ones like Town & City, or I may do it anyway and reduce it to "here are the forms, they last X seconds each." IDK yet.

There are also the retro stages to consider. Lava kill % on Norfair, HP of the pillars on Luigi's Mansion, little tidbits like that.

Garden of Hope doesn't really have much to analyze. The map randomly chooses which platform the stick and bowl are on. The peckish aristocrab will come on either side signified by bubbles. The bridge, stick, and bowl all are destructible and can be rebuilt by pikmin. Players turn small when inside the bowl. The two platforms on the sides act as a scale.

I think after Garden of Hope, Orbital Gate Assault should be done.