Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[warriorman222]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

I have a question: What's wrong with Orbital gate Assault and Wooly World? IS it simply that they had to be scrapped because there weren't enough other legal stages?

 

[LiteralGrill]

That stage list is fantastic!...With that said, you are putting Pilotwings as a starter knowing full well people could potentially camp on it? I would love for it to be legal...but starter? I'm curious at your reasoning.

I personally had put Castle Siege as the seventh starter (like it sometimes was in Brawl). However the rest of the team and many players felt it wasn't a good choice there and would prefer Pilotwings instead. I raised concerns about camping being possible there, and I guess my matches are not as bad as what others are having there. If it becomes a problem we can always change it back or possibly find another good stage to replace it with (any ideas on what would make a good 7th starter?)

I have a question: What's wrong with Orbital gate Assault and Wooly World?

Wooly World has a few things. The size is one major factor. With testing we were having people run away with incredible ease, especially on the air portion being so spaced out, being able to lift up and down, and having so many grabable ledges. Every match on there just turned out degenerate when the stage was abused. A shame, it's freaking adorable.

Orbital Gate Assault was much more difficult. It does have a good number of hazards though they are also predictable (fun fact, the fire coming out of the engines does damage to characters even, no knockback but constant damage). We understand the stage has a very set pattern as well. However it seems to have a lot of compounding factors that cause issues. This stage is just too strong a CP for air based characters being the largest factor, but even then there are many campable spots, ways to abuse them and other parts of the stage hazards (pummeling into engine fire wracks up crazy damage, some of the portions have walls that knock you back pretty hard when thrown into and there's not enough space to avoid said backthrows. Heck, even some of the transformations are so close to the edges of the stage it's like a walkoff). These compounded issues just made us uncomfortable having it legal. (Also while this is no legitimate reason, we did know many players wouldn't like to see it legal. That didn't come into our serious consideration but it is worth mentioning that it has a lot of dislike.)

 

[Piford]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

Why remove Windy Hill Zone? Were there any matches that showed problems with it? Also I would swap Pilotwings with Skyloft, Delphino Plaza, or Wuhu Island.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Why not just have it as 5 starters instead of 7?

 

[warriorman222]

I personally had put Castle Siege as the seventh starter (like it sometimes was in Brawl). However the rest of the team and many players felt it wasn't a good choice there and would prefer Pilotwings instead. I raised concerns about camping being possible there, and I guess my matches are not as bad as what others are having there. If it becomes a problem we can always change it back or possibly find another good stage to replace it with (any ideas on what would make a good 7th starter?)



Wooly World has a few things. The size is one major factor. With testing we were having people run away with incredible ease, especially on the air portion being so spaced out, being able to lift up and down, and having so many grabable ledges. Every match on there just turned out degenerate when the stage was abused. A shame, it's freaking adorable.

Orbital Gate Assault was much more difficult. It does have a good number of hazards though they are also predictable (fun fact, the fire coming out of the engines does damage to characters even, no knockback but constant damage). We understand the stage has a very set pattern as well. However it seems to have a lot of compounding factors that cause issues. This stage is just too strong a CP for air based characters being the largest factor, but even then there are many campable spots, ways to abuse them and other parts of the stage hazards (pummeling into engine fire wracks up crazy damage, some of the portions have walls that knock you back pretty hard when thrown into and there's not enough space to avoid said backthrows. Heck, even some of the transformations are so close to the edges of the stage it's like a walkoff). These compounded issues just made us uncomfortable having it legal. (Also while this is no legitimate reason, we did know many players wouldn't like to see it legal. That didn't come into our serious consideration but it is worth mentioning that it has a lot of dislike.)

That makes sense, barely anyone wants Orbital Gat elegal. It's sad, it tok them a year of work on that stage(and other stuff too) just to get banned. I don't mean just in your tourney, but if many don't want a stage legal and it has some issues, it's not gonna be legal.

Also Windy Hill Zone seems fine, the springs aren't that bad.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

I wouldn't run Pilotwings as a starter ever. The stage tilts a lot more than Lylat does, so much that to the point that it amplifies the problems of Lylat by much more: messes up recoveries, combos, and can even put you in danger of projectiles or save you from them. The red plane also has camping spots below on the sides.

As a counterpick, I think it would be better.

I also think Big Battlefield is worth trying out. It's like Dreamland from Melee in the sense that it's massive, but the amount of platforms give a lot of options. Aside from living a lot, I like it.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Dream Land 64 is big.

Big Battlefield is massive.

One is playable in 1v1 while the other isn't imo.

Big Battlefield definitely lives up to its name...

 

[MegaMissingno]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

 

[Piford]

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

What stage lacks grabbable ledges besides Port Town Aero Dive?

 

[Thinkaman]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Pilotwings is one of my favorite new stages... But yeah. Camping is a serious issue, along with tilting and collision on that first bridge. I really want this to be legal, but I don't think it will be in the end.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I feel like town and city is too big to be a 1v1 neutral. Nothing significantly unfair about it, but it's a good deal larger than the other neutrals

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's my list of tourney-legal stages (may see some changes throughout the years, as with all Smash games):

Spoiler

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

I expect you'll agree with me on this, but if Pilotwings is to be banned I'd rather it be done after someone successfully uses it to stall or whatever instead of pre-emptively banning it because it might be abused.

 

[FimPhym]

Whenever I see someone leave their under the wing position to approach the other under wing player, I cringe. Same when the leader doesn't retreat to the engines. It's like they are throwing the game away - I suspect it's because the matches I've watched don't have much on the line so keeping things moving is more fun for both players.

I totally agree we should have people actually do this in tournament first, but wow I am amazed no one is doing it already.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whenever I see someone leave their under the wing position to approach the other under wing player, I cringe. Same when the leader doesn't retreat to the engines. It's like they are throwing the game away - I suspect it's because the matches I've watched don't have much on the line so keeping things moving is more fun for both players.

I totally agree we should have people actually do this in tournament first, but wow I am amazed no one is doing it already.

To be fair I don't think anyone finds camping particularly fun, including the campers. The engines in particular on the yellow plane never even registered in my mind as possible standing room, so that was a complete surprise to me. So a combination of low stakes and low knowledge = why bother?

 

[Dragoomba]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

I believe this to be the case with 90% of the stages people are clamoring for right now.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Why remove Windy Hill Zone? Were there any matches that showed problems with it?

I'm not sure why others are not having issue with Windy Hill Zone. We had very few matches played on it in tournament, and amongst our own testing the stage size is an issue when you actually try to abuse it. We also were getting really early backthrow kills off the sids, not walk off early but close. These things together were worth removing it for us. We weren't having competitive matches on the stage when it was played on.

Also Windy Hill Zone seems fine, the springs aren't that bad.

There were not the only concern but they honestly didn't help either. They can pop up in the middle of recovery and doom people it seems.

Also I would swap Pilotwings with Skyloft, Delphino Plaza, or Wuhu Island.

We had enough issue with Castle Siege. All of those stages do have skewing transformations in them enough to warrant their use as a CP (if your not running FLSS).

Why not just have it as 5 starters instead of 7?

Well striking from the full list of legal stage list would be better but too time consuming. Since this is an issue we want to have as large a starter list as possible to promote variety.

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

I expect you'll agree with me on this, but if Pilotwings is to be banned I'd rather it be done after someone successfully uses it to stall or whatever instead of pre-emptively banning it because it might be abused.

Couldn't have put that better myself. I'm worried about it too but I wanna see someone else put it into action first.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

Also couldn't have put it better myself!

(Holy crap this is a long post!!!)

 

[Thinkaman]

Mini-rant:
People say "I want to fight my opponent, not the stage."

But you always fight the stage.

When Ice Climbers or Olimar grabbed you freely on FD in Brawl, that was fighting the stage.

When Marth tippered you at a low % on Yoshi's Story in Melee, that was fighting the stage.

When ZSS bairs you into the lava on Norfair, that's fighting the stage.

When Peach trapped you on a platform on Battlefield and hit you with a guaranteed aerial, that was fighting the stage.

When Snake f-tilts you into the Halberd laser, that's fighting the stage.

When Jigglypuff lives to 140% on Dream Land, that's fighting the stage.

When Little Mac gets saved from a gimp by the platform on Smashville, that's fighting the stage.


The stage is always part of the game. As long as it's not random or degenerates into camping, all complaints about this obvious fact are just johns.

Saying "You only survived because it's Dream Land" or "I only died because you hit me into the claw" like it somehow excuses your defeat? Gee, thanks for the obvious commentary John Madden, but the victory screen still says you lost. Stop johnning and shake your opponent's hand.

If you opponent hits you into the lava wall on Norfair, the only non-scrub response is "Nice!"

 

[FimPhym]

Thinkaman, that's all well and good but on some omega stages you get grass that can fractionally change the distance you slide so you agree we have to ban them right

 

[DavemanCozy]

Been reading this thread and commenting my own input for a while. After trying out all the stages, as well as reading the input players have given, I've put down a list of stages that I think should be legal, along with my reasons:

Tournament Legal:

Spoiler

In terms of legal doubles stages:

Spoiler

Regarding the above stages: Obviously that's a lot of stages, a total of 17 to consider for 1v1. We should keep in mind that, when planning tourneys, not all of them should be used. Stick to a manageable number of stages that make stage bans worth doing.

Everything else should be banned:

Spoiler

Please, tell me what you think.

 

[Thinkaman]

but like Thinkaman, I hope this stage gets banned eventually.

To clarify, I don't want or hope the stage gets banned; ideally I wish everything could be legal.

I also want more testing done. We should never ban a stage based on theory of how we think it will be played. It's still "on" on my console.

I am just speculating what my and others' opinions will be when the verdict comes in.


But yeah, good post, thanks for contributing to the discussion. By which I secretly mean "Screw you, Mushroomy Kingdom U is the best stage in the game." #PraiseNabbit

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

I believe this to be the case with 90% of the stages people are clamoring for right now.

Yeah, but they may as well be tried out. If they have some things that might be abused, we should at least wait to ban them until someone actually abuses them. You can automatically ban stages that obviously won't work, like Pyrosphere and Gaur Plain, but with a stage debated so much, it couldn't hurt to allow it untill you see what people do. But then again, I don't know much about how comp works.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Idle thought: How would Coliseum/Wii Fit Studio/Mario Galaxy work in doubles? I'm mostly looking at how the 2v2 dynamic would influence walkoff camping and I can't really decide on it in my head.

 

[guedes the brawler]

you know, is there ANY legitimate reason to go to the engine of pilot wings besides camping? it's not an area most people would ever get launched to, so they HAVE to get there willingly.

i think the actual strategy could be banned here...

 

[LiteralGrill]

you know, is there ANY legitimate reason to go to the engine of pilot wings besides camping? it's not an area most people would ever get launched to, so they HAVE to get there willingly.

i think the actual strategy could be banned here...

If I was desperate I could still use it for a unique recovery and get stuck down there. Enforceable, discrete, and warranted. How do you ban that specifically?

 

[warriorman222]

Duck Hunt bushes aren't bad. If you cannot see where the bushes are , something is wrong. because I, not even 16, can see them fine without trying, so people who have spent years playing smash should be able to see bushes, and assume that a hidden fighter is behind them. It should be starter, there is no reason why not imo.

 

[Piford]

If I was desperate I could still use it for a unique recovery and get stuck down there. Enforceable, discrete, and warranted. How do you ban that specifically?

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

 

[Dragoomba]

If you opponent hits you into the lava wall on Norfair, the only non-scrub response is "Nice!"

Or: "Who picked this ****ty stage"

Most of your examples are total exaggerations besides the couple with actual hazards. You're not fighting the stage on FD because you get grabbed by Ice Climbers. You're fighting Ice Climbers on a stage that's very favorable for them.

When you have to go out of your way to avoid hazards (Halberd, Norfair, etc), that's fighting against the stage.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

Well, I don't know about the not using it 5 times because it is obscure part. After all, in the middle of the match, someone could think of using the engine. If you look at it hard enough, it does look like a platform you can stand on. I certainly did.

Edit: Wait, nevermind, Misunderstood. Carry on. ^^;

 

[LiteralGrill]

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

This sounds as bad and arbitrary as the LGL rules in Brawl.

 

[Raziek]

We're now running this list in Nova Scotia:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kongo 64
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Counterpick:
Halberd
Omega Gaur Plains*
City & Town
Skyloft
Windy Hill
Wooly World
Castle Siege

* Due to the default FD's distracting background, Omega Gaur Plains is being used as a replacement. You may counterpick to a different variant if you want, but your opponent may request a version of the stage that is identical in GAMEPLAY but is easier on the eyes.

For further details on the variants and which are in each category, check http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

Walk-offs proved bad enough to be banned. Wooly World is still under suspect testing.

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

 

[Piford]

This sounds as bad and arbitrary as the LGL rules in Brawl.

It was just how it would be banned. I wasn't saying that it should actually be implemented. It's definitely possible to ban the strategy in that situation, but whether or not its better than banning the stage is beyond me.

We're now running this list in Nova Scotia:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kongo 64
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Counterpick:
Halberd
Omega Gaur Plains*
City & Town
Skyloft
Windy Hill
Wooly World
Castle Siege

* Due to the default FD's distracting background, Omega Gaur Plains is being used as a replacement. You may counterpick to a different variant if you want, but your opponent may request a version of the stage that is identical in GAMEPLAY but is easier on the eyes.

For further details on the variants and which are in each category, check http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

Walk-offs proved bad enough to be banned. Wooly World is still under suspect testing.

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

Why not have Town and City as a starter?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

It's been brought up quite a bit for about a couple or so days now and is still being discussed. In fact, we were just talking about it.

On the topic of your stage list, looks great! I'm also curious on why Town and city isn't a starter though.

 

[Raziek]

It's been brought up quite a bit for about a couple or so days now and is still being discussed. In fact, we were just talking about it.

On the topic of your stage list, looks great! I'm also curious on why Town and city isn't a starter though.

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i tried today the "beat true all-star mode with captain falcon on nroaml or higher without healing".

Mario circuit's caves of life + CPU's perfect 100% success rate on teching made the second round a huge hassle, as if the combo of Olimar, Bowser Jr and Villager wasn't bad enough by itself.

so i don't think the problem is the stage killing you because of inexperience, but you surviving to huge %s thanks to experience. maybe i'm just too scrubbish, but eh. i really didn't like this.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

But don't they have different platform layouts from each other? Smashville has that one platform going left to right and vice versa constantly, while Town and city has three different layouts, the town's layout (three platforms moving), the layout while traveling (like FD), and the layout of the City(two platforms moving).

 

[Fenrir VII]

I still say town and city is too big to be a starter. The stage is pretty massive. I'm ok with it as a cp though

 

[Piford]

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

But the layouts are pretty different and the only thing that seems similar are the visuals. Did your testing show that characters seem to do well on one do well on the other?

 

[Raziek]

I HIGHLY disagree. It's a long, flat stage.

The platforms only barely interact with play. They play basically the same.