Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[warriorman222]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

I have a question: What's wrong with Orbital gate Assault and Wooly World? IS it simply that they had to be scrapped because there weren't enough other legal stages?

 

[LiteralGrill]

That stage list is fantastic!...With that said, you are putting Pilotwings as a starter knowing full well people could potentially camp on it? I would love for it to be legal...but starter? I'm curious at your reasoning.

I personally had put Castle Siege as the seventh starter (like it sometimes was in Brawl). However the rest of the team and many players felt it wasn't a good choice there and would prefer Pilotwings instead. I raised concerns about camping being possible there, and I guess my matches are not as bad as what others are having there. If it becomes a problem we can always change it back or possibly find another good stage to replace it with (any ideas on what would make a good 7th starter?)

I have a question: What's wrong with Orbital gate Assault and Wooly World?

Wooly World has a few things. The size is one major factor. With testing we were having people run away with incredible ease, especially on the air portion being so spaced out, being able to lift up and down, and having so many grabable ledges. Every match on there just turned out degenerate when the stage was abused. A shame, it's freaking adorable.

Orbital Gate Assault was much more difficult. It does have a good number of hazards though they are also predictable (fun fact, the fire coming out of the engines does damage to characters even, no knockback but constant damage). We understand the stage has a very set pattern as well. However it seems to have a lot of compounding factors that cause issues. This stage is just too strong a CP for air based characters being the largest factor, but even then there are many campable spots, ways to abuse them and other parts of the stage hazards (pummeling into engine fire wracks up crazy damage, some of the portions have walls that knock you back pretty hard when thrown into and there's not enough space to avoid said backthrows. Heck, even some of the transformations are so close to the edges of the stage it's like a walkoff). These compounded issues just made us uncomfortable having it legal. (Also while this is no legitimate reason, we did know many players wouldn't like to see it legal. That didn't come into our serious consideration but it is worth mentioning that it has a lot of dislike.)

 

[Piford]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

Why remove Windy Hill Zone? Were there any matches that showed problems with it? Also I would swap Pilotwings with Skyloft, Delphino Plaza, or Wuhu Island.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Why not just have it as 5 starters instead of 7?

 

[warriorman222]

I personally had put Castle Siege as the seventh starter (like it sometimes was in Brawl). However the rest of the team and many players felt it wasn't a good choice there and would prefer Pilotwings instead. I raised concerns about camping being possible there, and I guess my matches are not as bad as what others are having there. If it becomes a problem we can always change it back or possibly find another good stage to replace it with (any ideas on what would make a good 7th starter?)



Wooly World has a few things. The size is one major factor. With testing we were having people run away with incredible ease, especially on the air portion being so spaced out, being able to lift up and down, and having so many grabable ledges. Every match on there just turned out degenerate when the stage was abused. A shame, it's freaking adorable.

Orbital Gate Assault was much more difficult. It does have a good number of hazards though they are also predictable (fun fact, the fire coming out of the engines does damage to characters even, no knockback but constant damage). We understand the stage has a very set pattern as well. However it seems to have a lot of compounding factors that cause issues. This stage is just too strong a CP for air based characters being the largest factor, but even then there are many campable spots, ways to abuse them and other parts of the stage hazards (pummeling into engine fire wracks up crazy damage, some of the portions have walls that knock you back pretty hard when thrown into and there's not enough space to avoid said backthrows. Heck, even some of the transformations are so close to the edges of the stage it's like a walkoff). These compounded issues just made us uncomfortable having it legal. (Also while this is no legitimate reason, we did know many players wouldn't like to see it legal. That didn't come into our serious consideration but it is worth mentioning that it has a lot of dislike.)

That makes sense, barely anyone wants Orbital Gat elegal. It's sad, it tok them a year of work on that stage(and other stuff too) just to get banned. I don't mean just in your tourney, but if many don't want a stage legal and it has some issues, it's not gonna be legal.

Also Windy Hill Zone seems fine, the springs aren't that bad.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

I wouldn't run Pilotwings as a starter ever. The stage tilts a lot more than Lylat does, so much that to the point that it amplifies the problems of Lylat by much more: messes up recoveries, combos, and can even put you in danger of projectiles or save you from them. The red plane also has camping spots below on the sides.

As a counterpick, I think it would be better.

I also think Big Battlefield is worth trying out. It's like Dreamland from Melee in the sense that it's massive, but the amount of platforms give a lot of options. Aside from living a lot, I like it.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Dream Land 64 is big.

Big Battlefield is massive.

One is playable in 1v1 while the other isn't imo.

Big Battlefield definitely lives up to its name...

 

[MegaMissingno]

I was reading over a thread on /r/smashbros today (that was posted by @ Piford you should totally read it) and it gave me a massive realization.

"I don't WANT to play on a stage with hazards,"

"I don't WANT to play on stages with water."

"I don't WANT to deal with the stage, just with my opponent."

Guys, the reasons most people are using to ban stages are scrub logic. Self imposed rules on what the game should be vs what the game actually is. This blew my mind a bit. When you see people saying things like "want" and not providing actual reasons to warrant a ban (irrefutable evidence a stage is busted) the only response should be "you can play it that way, but please don't suggest we do so in a competitive setting. I don't want scrubish rules effecting the competitive arena."

Anyways, with that off my chest...

Why don't you look at the new Hypest Ruleset!!!​

Any feedback on the stagelist would be totally appreciated guys!

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

 

[Piford]

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

What stage lacks grabbable ledges besides Port Town Aero Dive?

 

[Thinkaman]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Pilotwings is one of my favorite new stages... But yeah. Camping is a serious issue, along with tilting and collision on that first bridge. I really want this to be legal, but I don't think it will be in the end.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I feel like town and city is too big to be a 1v1 neutral. Nothing significantly unfair about it, but it's a good deal larger than the other neutrals

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's my list of tourney-legal stages (may see some changes throughout the years, as with all Smash games):

Spoiler

Battlefield/Miiverse: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Big Battlefield: Heavily promotes camping on 1v1s, which never happens on doubles
Final Destination: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Mushroom Kingdom U: Nabbit can disrupt gameplay and is harder to get out of at higher damages
Mario Galaxy: Unique gravity and the fact that it is a walk-off (which means easy KOs with most attacks if close enough)
Delfino Plaza: It's obviously not neutral, but nothing seems wrong with it (all OP things are temporary)
Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8): May add a wall, one walk-off side or a ceiling in certain transformations, but there is always at least 3 uncovered blast zones in which you can KO someone. Shy Guys deals good knockback, but not as much as Brawl's MC and are present in only 2 locations.
Mario Circuit (Brawl): Shy Guys can KO players easily (despite their predictability) + walf-offs = easy KOs
Luigi's Mansion: Small, destrucible caves of life (the sides of the mansion) can stop Charizard's Side-B, but abusing them can destroy them, which balances things out, IMO
Jungle Hijinxs: Dynamic stage, dual-plane system: front plane is neutral but can disappear for a short moment, back plane deals more knockback, but is much larger and has higher ceiling, balancing things out. Abusing cannon destroys them and deals you damage.
Kongo Jungle 64: reverted back to its 64 size, making it good for 1v1s again
Skyloft: See Delfino Plaza
Bridge of Eldin: Walk-off + King Bulbin destroying the middle part = over-usage of Meteor Smashes and easy walk-off KOs
Temple: TOO BIG FOR ANYTHING!!!!! Also has a cave of life at the bottom
Pyrosphere: FG-II Grahams, Zeros and Ridley. 'Nuff said
Norfair: Predictable lava, lava walls only appear one at a time, leaving the other side available for horizontal KOs
Port Town Aero Dive: See Delfino Plaza + apparently it has no ledges
Wooly World: Three different forms: two are walk-offs and the other one barely has anything, leaving easy occasion to meteor smash other players
Yoshi's Island: Spinning blocks, right wall covered by diagonal walk-off (making it a permanent semi-walkoff)
Great Cave Offensive: WAY TOO BIG!!!!!! Also the Danger Zones (glowing red sections) can KO at 100% or more
Halberd: Double Cannon is predictable, easy to avoid, but also easy to drag opponents into. Walk-off at the first 5 seconds, but doesn't matter due to the short time.
Orbital Gate Assault: Multiple layouts (Great Fox->1st missile->Airwings->Second Missile->Airwings again->Great Fox), missiles explodes after the same amount of time, everytime, making it predictable. Mini missiles deal no knockback and around 2% damage.
Lylat Cruise: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Kalos Pokemon League: Silver goop on swords chamber metalize anyone touching it, flame "geysers" in fire chamber never stuck characters in, it pushes them back where they came from and projectiles can go though. Rayquaza in dragon chamber and the flood chamber can be problematic, but are only temporary.
Pokemon Stadium 2: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Onett: Overly complex layout, blast zones unusually close, walk-off and that black van.
Coliseum: Walk-off = easy KOs
Castle Siege: Transforming stage, 1 of its 3 transformations is a walk-off, but the other 2 are neutral.
Flat Zone X: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Palutena's Temple: GIGANTIC!!!!! Multiple caves of life, southeast side is a perfoect place to easily KO with Meteor Smashes
Skyworld: Intact platforms = Caves of life, Broken platforms = No ledges and easy kills with Meteor Smashes
Gamer: 5-Volt deals great knockback (if you get caught) but is semi-predictable, randomized layout. May get banned later.
Garden of Hope: Only problem is the predictable Peckish Aristocrab (look for bubbles)
Both Animal Crossing stages: No explainations are needed for those ones.....
Wii Fit Studio: Walk-off = easy KOs
Boxing Ring: Walk-off = easy KOs, lights platform can deal great knockback and is easy to reach, but also gives incredibly easy KOs with attacks dealing vertical knockback
Gaur Plain: Metal Face + Huge gap in the middle, giving over-usage of meteors. Top platforms are walk-offs. REALLY BIG!!!!
Duck Hunt: Fixed Camera + 2D, 8-bit Duck Hunt Dog's intimidating laugh (it's also a platform, whether he's laughing or not), the tree's "bushes" are platfroms and so is the actual bush.
75 m: No explainations are needed for that one.....
Wrecking Crew: Unique mechanic of lowering the floors is only possible with the bombs (with deals no apparent damage nor knockback), barrels can trap opponents if they are under it when it lowers, but the bombs make it very predictable
Pilotwings: Sure, there is a plane switch at some point, but other than that, there's barely anything going on. (Small second-long hazards may show up, but it's difficult to get hit by them)
Wuhu Island: Patchable glitch discovered, but only seems to be possible with Ness's down throw. See Delfino Plaza for the rest.
Windy Hill Zone: Heavily promotes camping on 1v1s, which never happens on doubles.
Wily Castle: Yellow Devil
PAC-LAND: DO I REALLY NEED TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING ABOUT IT???? THAT STAGE IS DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN!!!!!!!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

I expect you'll agree with me on this, but if Pilotwings is to be banned I'd rather it be done after someone successfully uses it to stall or whatever instead of pre-emptively banning it because it might be abused.

 

[FimPhym]

Whenever I see someone leave their under the wing position to approach the other under wing player, I cringe. Same when the leader doesn't retreat to the engines. It's like they are throwing the game away - I suspect it's because the matches I've watched don't have much on the line so keeping things moving is more fun for both players.

I totally agree we should have people actually do this in tournament first, but wow I am amazed no one is doing it already.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whenever I see someone leave their under the wing position to approach the other under wing player, I cringe. Same when the leader doesn't retreat to the engines. It's like they are throwing the game away - I suspect it's because the matches I've watched don't have much on the line so keeping things moving is more fun for both players.

I totally agree we should have people actually do this in tournament first, but wow I am amazed no one is doing it already.

To be fair I don't think anyone finds camping particularly fun, including the campers. The engines in particular on the yellow plane never even registered in my mind as possible standing room, so that was a complete surprise to me. So a combination of low stakes and low knowledge = why bother?

 

[Dragoomba]

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

I believe this to be the case with 90% of the stages people are clamoring for right now.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Why remove Windy Hill Zone? Were there any matches that showed problems with it?

I'm not sure why others are not having issue with Windy Hill Zone. We had very few matches played on it in tournament, and amongst our own testing the stage size is an issue when you actually try to abuse it. We also were getting really early backthrow kills off the sids, not walk off early but close. These things together were worth removing it for us. We weren't having competitive matches on the stage when it was played on.

Also Windy Hill Zone seems fine, the springs aren't that bad.

There were not the only concern but they honestly didn't help either. They can pop up in the middle of recovery and doom people it seems.

Also I would swap Pilotwings with Skyloft, Delphino Plaza, or Wuhu Island.

We had enough issue with Castle Siege. All of those stages do have skewing transformations in them enough to warrant their use as a CP (if your not running FLSS).

Why not just have it as 5 starters instead of 7?

Well striking from the full list of legal stage list would be better but too time consuming. Since this is an issue we want to have as large a starter list as possible to promote variety.

Pessimistic Paulie Time: I expect Pilotwings to degenerate and prove ban-worthy over time.

I expect you'll agree with me on this, but if Pilotwings is to be banned I'd rather it be done after someone successfully uses it to stall or whatever instead of pre-emptively banning it because it might be abused.

Couldn't have put that better myself. I'm worried about it too but I wanna see someone else put it into action first.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a scrub!"

Name-calling is not cool man. Heaven forbid anyone have a more conservative mindset and prefer to keep it simple. We're not wrong for wanting to play this way. For Melee and PM vets that's been the norm for a long time, these new stages I see everyone argue for look just like the same problems as Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Poke Floats to me. (And yes I know those stages used to be legal a very long time ago, but they were eventually banned for very good reasons)

Also, I don't think Capps was being insulting or unnecessarily provocative.

Pointing out that someone is just making johns is ultimately calling a spade a spade.

Also couldn't have put it better myself!

(Holy crap this is a long post!!!)

 

[Thinkaman]

Mini-rant:
People say "I want to fight my opponent, not the stage."

But you always fight the stage.

When Ice Climbers or Olimar grabbed you freely on FD in Brawl, that was fighting the stage.

When Marth tippered you at a low % on Yoshi's Story in Melee, that was fighting the stage.

When ZSS bairs you into the lava on Norfair, that's fighting the stage.

When Peach trapped you on a platform on Battlefield and hit you with a guaranteed aerial, that was fighting the stage.

When Snake f-tilts you into the Halberd laser, that's fighting the stage.

When Jigglypuff lives to 140% on Dream Land, that's fighting the stage.

When Little Mac gets saved from a gimp by the platform on Smashville, that's fighting the stage.


The stage is always part of the game. As long as it's not random or degenerates into camping, all complaints about this obvious fact are just johns.

Saying "You only survived because it's Dream Land" or "I only died because you hit me into the claw" like it somehow excuses your defeat? Gee, thanks for the obvious commentary John Madden, but the victory screen still says you lost. Stop johnning and shake your opponent's hand.

If you opponent hits you into the lava wall on Norfair, the only non-scrub response is "Nice!"

 

[FimPhym]

Thinkaman, that's all well and good but on some omega stages you get grass that can fractionally change the distance you slide so you agree we have to ban them right

 

[DavemanCozy]

Been reading this thread and commenting my own input for a while. After trying out all the stages, as well as reading the input players have given, I've put down a list of stages that I think should be legal, along with my reasons:

Tournament Legal:

Spoiler

• Battlefield [starter]
  Been neutral since Melee, still neutral
  
• Final Destination [starter]
  Been neutral since Melee. However, Omega forms should be CP's, unless the 2 players agree to play on an Omega form from the start.
• -> Omega Forms [CP's]
  Should be counterpicks like they were in 3DS, with the same counter-picking rules the 3DS tourneys implemented + new rules to account for the more diverse changes.
  
• Town & City [starter / possible CP?]
  The platforms coming and going carry players offstage if they're on. This could be a problem, but it's also good because it encourages more offensive play instead of camping the platforms. Personally, I think it should be a starter.
  
• Smashville [starter]
  Neutral since Brawl, still a very fair stage.
  
• Miiverse (When it becomes available) [starter]
  I think this is a great idea of a stage, although it is Miiverse: expect some "hilarious" background comments. In all seriousness though, it looks like a good stage.
  EDIT: some have mentioned Miiverse is like another Battlefield, so we could just use the same striking rules used when picking FD and Omegas to use for BF and Miiverse.
  
• Kongo Jungle [starter / possible CP?]
  I can see why some want this to be a CP with the ground being passable and the cannon enhancing certain recoveries. Other than that though, the stage isn't the monstrosity it used to be in Melee, and you can actually see where your character is thanks to better graphics. I say starter, but it would also be fine as a CP.
  
• Lylat Cruise [starter / possible CP?]
  It's the same from Brawl, with the same minor hindrances: some characters can get caught in the thin edges of the stage while recovering, the stage tilting causes minor disruptions to certain movements. I say starter, but I would be ok if it was a CP.
  
• Halberd [CP / maybe banned?]
  Combo Cannon (or Main Cannon #2, if you played Super Star Ultra) is fairly predictable, and isn't present for the entire stage either. Still, it does become a powerful ally or enemy, depending on your situation. Passing through the stage when it's flying does give certain advantages to some characters. I say CP, I wouldn't mind if it got banned though.
  
• Delfino Plaza [CP / very doubtfully banned??]
  Some stage transitions have weird layouts, + there's the whole passing under the stage. I say it's fine as a CP.
• Skyworld [CP / possibly banned]
  Same as Delfino, except some of the stops in the stage are noticeably worse, some of them even having caves of life and much more campy spots. Parts of the stage also hit you if you touch them when it starts moving again, though these areas are uncommon and it's rare to ever be in a position to get hit. I'm ok with it as a CP, but I wouldn't be upset if it got banned either.
  
• Mario Circuit Wii U [CP / possibly banned]
  The track covers the upper, side or bottom blast zones, but it's only one that is covered at certain parts. Most of the stops are decent, although there are some in particular that are annoying, such as the one with the gap in between the sideways track. I can see it as a CP, but personally I think it should be banned.
• Norfair [banned / maybe CP?]
  I guess ledge-stalling no longer being as dominant makes it better as a CP. The lava coming from three sides (four if you count the wave from the back) is annoying though, but not terrible. Stage layout is also odd. Personally, I say banned, but it could work as a CP.
  
• Pokemon Stadium 2 [CP / possibly banned]
  The stage effects have now been greatly mitigated: conveyors in the Electric transformation don't push as much, the faster speed of the game makes the air in the Flying transformation less dominant (still annoying), the Ground transformation is now good too with the removal of infinites and Ice... well, it's actually still annoying with all the slippery floor, although random tripping being gone makes it less bad. With the big problems that made it banned in Brawl reduced, I think it could actually be a CP.
  Even with the nerfed transformations though, I don't neglect there's good reasoning to ban this stage. Flying, although less dominant, still favors strong air games, and the slippery Ice transformation can mess up certain movements.
  
• Castle Siege [CP]
  The 1st transition is a little small, 2nd transition has statues and walk-offs, and the 3rd tilts a little bit due to the stone balancing. The stage transitions in between also save characters if they're about to be KO'd from the bottom. Like Brawl, it should be a CP.
  
• Duck Hunt [CP / maybe starter]
  Really nice stage with one solid platform, with the tree's leaves and the bush on the right acting as platforms, and a temporary platform with the laughing dog. The bushes, however, hide characters who stand behind them, and therefore hide what they're about to do (grab? roll? shield? you can only tell by sound cues). I think it should be a CP and not a starter, just because of the bushes hiding fighters behind them.
  
• Wuhu Island [possible CP when fixed, but banned for now]
  I'm sure the insta-KO d-throw from Ness will get fixed eventually, but until it does this stage should be banned. Even if it's rare for that to happen, something that KOs instantly isn't healthy for a competitive setting.
  Once fixed, however, this stage isn't bad as a CP. Like Mario Kart, it has some annoying transformations, except not as bad since there are no karts. The volcano and the bridge are pretty annoying to fight on, for example, but the biggest concern I have is the part with the cliff. Aside from having a walk-off, it also has a giant balloon that appears on the right side:
  http://youtu.be/aggC4joE2wU?t=1m21s
  Hitting this balloon (not shown in the video) actually makes it pop, causing some heavy knockback. It's not a terrible stage though, I personally would much rather have this as a CP over Mario Kart.
• Pilotwings [banned / doubtful CP]
  I thought this stage was ok as a CP, I don't think that anymore now. The bridge hazard is powerful, the stage tilts way too much to the point where it destroys recovery attempts or combos. Red plane also has campable spots in the sides at the bottom, on the lower wings. I've seen tourneys running it as a CP, I hope this stage gets banned eventually.

In terms of legal doubles stages:

Spoiler

• Big Battlefield [starter]
  Too big for singles, as pointed out before. Good for doubles though.
  
• Windy Hill Zone [CP, maybe doubles starter?]
  Awkward layout, pretty big. Windmill on the side can get a little campy when it comes down to 1v1, but in 2v2 that hopefully won't be the case. I say CP for doubles.
  
• Luigi's Mansion [possible doubles CP?]
  Circle camping, caves of life, destructible structures can be used to delay attacks or get protected from projectiles, overall the same reasons why it was banned in most recent Brawl tournaments. Banned for 1v1, I personally think it should still be banned for 2v2.
  However, I don't neglect that Luigi's Mansion could potentially be a decent Doubles CP, since camping is mitigated and the stage gets destroyed (along with its problems) more easily. Worth trying out.
• Jungle Hijinx [possible doubles CP?]
  Not a terrible stage, but the cannon transporting players to the back of the stage takes the meaning of circle camping to a whole new dimension (literally). This stage is also pretty big. Could be a decent CP for doubles, definitely not good for singles.

Regarding the above stages: Obviously that's a lot of stages, a total of 17 to consider for 1v1. We should keep in mind that, when planning tourneys, not all of them should be used. Stick to a manageable number of stages that make stage bans worth doing.

Everything else should be banned:

Spoiler

• Mario Wii U [banned]
  It's not just Nabbit. The Sea Urchin that comes in the water transformation is also pretty bad. The middle gap in the sky transformation is overall not good either.
  
• Mario Galaxy [banned]
  The gravity causes more star KO's, it's Jigglypuffs heaven basically. Stages like this with no bottom blast zone also give ground characters (particularly Little Mac) a very big advantage.
  
• Mario Circuit (Brawl) [banned]
  Overly annoying cars, walk offs on the sides. Same reasons why it was banned in Brawl.
  
• Bridge of Eldin [banned]
  Please go away King Bulbin. Actually, you can stay, because even if you did, there's walk-offs on either side anyways, making this stage banned.
  
• Temple [banned]
  Waay too big. Not even suitable for doubles. Banned since Melee, still banned.
  
• Pyrosphere [banned]
  Too many stage hazards, overemphasis on using them to your advantage. Guess we will never see Ridley in a competitive smash tournament (Sakurai: *laughs*).
• Port Town: Aero Dive [banned]
  The F-zero machines = Shy Guy Karts on steroids. In many instances the main platform travels near structures along the track that are very powerful if you touch them. Also, no ledges. Banned for sure.
• Woolly World [banned / maybe experiment with it]
  The first transition has walk-offs on the sides. The second part is in the sky, and the platforms tether all over depending on the characters on them. The third is mostly like the first one, except with the platforms closer to the ground. The rocket in the middle is the biggest problem: it gimps recoveries in the 2nd part (such as Ness's thunder), and creates a tech-able hard platform in the 1st and 3rd. The second part is also really skewed, hard to fight in it and heavily favors aerial movement. I say banned, although it's worth experimenting with it.
  
• Yoshi's Island [banned]
  Spinning Donnut blocks create caves of life, walk off on the right, slippery hill on the right gives certain characters a lot of advantages (particularly Fox, C. Falcon, and Falco with their high falling speed letting them slide down the hill, with the space animals capable of Flame Dashing as well). Clunky layout as well.
  
• Great Cave Offensive [banned]
  Loool
  
• Orbital Gate Assault [banned]
  Remember Poke Floats? Now add exploding ships. That's what this stage is. Banned.
  
• Kalos League [banned]
  I thought this stage was decent as a CP when I first played it, but the Steel and Water parts ruin it from a competitive setting. Becoming metal is too good of an advantage if you know what you're doing, and the water rushing down is too powerful of a gimp. Oh, and let's not forget about our friend Rayquaza in the Dragon stage. Banned.
  
• Onett [banned]
  Still the same as Melee and Brawl, with the Black Van and all. Banned.
  
• Colliseum [banned / possibly experiment for 2v2]
  Walk offs make it bad. Rising platforms can also create circle camping against characters who don't fair in the air well. Maybe experiment with this one in dubs, it's at least much better than Wooly World, but I say banned because of walk-offs are always there.
  
• Flat Zone X [banned]
  I like it better than the previous Flat Zones, but by no means should it be legal. Too small, walk-offs, and tons of hazards. Banned.
  
• Palutena's Temple [banned]
  Hyrule Temple x2 + spike ball hazards and destructible ground in the stage. Banned.
  
• Skyworld [banned]
  Destructible ground creates caves of life, and overpowers Meteor smashes when the floor is gone. Banned for the same reasons it was in Brawl.
  
• Gamer [banned]
  The drawer on the left creates a cave of life. 5-volt is too disruptive as well: some of the stares are predictable, but others come out of nowhere. Banned.
  
• Garden of Hope [banned]
  Crab ruins this stage from being viable. Bridge in the middle being breakable creates the same problems stages with gaps in the middle have.
  
• Wii Fit Studio [banned / maybe experiment in 2v2]
  Walk-offs, again they favor those with good ground games, easy KO's from the sides too. Banned (though I really like the omega form). Maybe try it in 2v2s, but I still say banned for that too.
  
• Boxing Ring [banned]
  Banned for the same reasons as 3DS: Lights on top of the stage are too powerful of a camping spot and weapon. The sides of the stage are also walk-offs. Banned.
  
• Gaur Plains [banned]
  Banned for the same reasons as in 3DS: Overly large, added springs on the sides, too easy to circle camp. Not to mention Metalface coming in and wrecking stuff. Banned
  
• 75m [banned]
  Please go away 8-bit DK. Too large, too many powerful hazards, terrible fighting layout. Hella banned.
  
• Wrecking Crew [banned]
  Oil barrels hinder movement, exploding bombs place too much emphasis on this strategy. This stage is also quite large. Tomadochi Life worked in 3DS because it was a fairly non-disruptive stage that offered many angles of approach, but this stage is Tomadochi x2 in size with disruptive hazards added. Banned for sure.
  
• Wily's Castle [banned]
  Banned for the same reasons as in 3DS: Yellow Devil crashing down ruins this stage from being competitive.
  
• Pac Land [banned]
  Oh my gosh. No. This is basically Mushroomy Kingdom with multiple hazards along the way and tons of spots are too close to the blast zones. Banned forever.

Please, tell me what you think.

 

[Thinkaman]

but like Thinkaman, I hope this stage gets banned eventually.

To clarify, I don't want or hope the stage gets banned; ideally I wish everything could be legal.

I also want more testing done. We should never ban a stage based on theory of how we think it will be played. It's still "on" on my console.

I am just speculating what my and others' opinions will be when the verdict comes in.


But yeah, good post, thanks for contributing to the discussion. By which I secretly mean "Screw you, Mushroomy Kingdom U is the best stage in the game." #PraiseNabbit

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

I believe this to be the case with 90% of the stages people are clamoring for right now.

Yeah, but they may as well be tried out. If they have some things that might be abused, we should at least wait to ban them until someone actually abuses them. You can automatically ban stages that obviously won't work, like Pyrosphere and Gaur Plain, but with a stage debated so much, it couldn't hurt to allow it untill you see what people do. But then again, I don't know much about how comp works.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Idle thought: How would Coliseum/Wii Fit Studio/Mario Galaxy work in doubles? I'm mostly looking at how the 2v2 dynamic would influence walkoff camping and I can't really decide on it in my head.

 

[guedes the brawler]

you know, is there ANY legitimate reason to go to the engine of pilot wings besides camping? it's not an area most people would ever get launched to, so they HAVE to get there willingly.

i think the actual strategy could be banned here...

 

[LiteralGrill]

you know, is there ANY legitimate reason to go to the engine of pilot wings besides camping? it's not an area most people would ever get launched to, so they HAVE to get there willingly.

i think the actual strategy could be banned here...

If I was desperate I could still use it for a unique recovery and get stuck down there. Enforceable, discrete, and warranted. How do you ban that specifically?

 

[warriorman222]

Duck Hunt bushes aren't bad. If you cannot see where the bushes are , something is wrong. because I, not even 16, can see them fine without trying, so people who have spent years playing smash should be able to see bushes, and assume that a hidden fighter is behind them. It should be starter, there is no reason why not imo.

 

[Piford]

If I was desperate I could still use it for a unique recovery and get stuck down there. Enforceable, discrete, and warranted. How do you ban that specifically?

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

 

[Dragoomba]

If you opponent hits you into the lava wall on Norfair, the only non-scrub response is "Nice!"

Or: "Who picked this ****ty stage"

Most of your examples are total exaggerations besides the couple with actual hazards. You're not fighting the stage on FD because you get grabbed by Ice Climbers. You're fighting Ice Climbers on a stage that's very favorable for them.

When you have to go out of your way to avoid hazards (Halberd, Norfair, etc), that's fighting against the stage.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

Well, I don't know about the not using it 5 times because it is obscure part. After all, in the middle of the match, someone could think of using the engine. If you look at it hard enough, it does look like a platform you can stand on. I certainly did.

Edit: Wait, nevermind, Misunderstood. Carry on. ^^;

 

[LiteralGrill]

It actually be pretty easy to ban camping under the plane. If a player either stands on the engine for more than 5 seconds total (the entire match) or lands on it 5 times they loose. It's so obscure that you can't possibly use it more than 5 times to in one match, and you can't effectively camp there for 5 seconds.

This sounds as bad and arbitrary as the LGL rules in Brawl.

 

[Raziek]

We're now running this list in Nova Scotia:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kongo 64
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Counterpick:
Halberd
Omega Gaur Plains*
City & Town
Skyloft
Windy Hill
Wooly World
Castle Siege

* Due to the default FD's distracting background, Omega Gaur Plains is being used as a replacement. You may counterpick to a different variant if you want, but your opponent may request a version of the stage that is identical in GAMEPLAY but is easier on the eyes.

For further details on the variants and which are in each category, check http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

Walk-offs proved bad enough to be banned. Wooly World is still under suspect testing.

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

 

[Piford]

This sounds as bad and arbitrary as the LGL rules in Brawl.

It was just how it would be banned. I wasn't saying that it should actually be implemented. It's definitely possible to ban the strategy in that situation, but whether or not its better than banning the stage is beyond me.

We're now running this list in Nova Scotia:

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Kongo 64
Wuhu Island
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt

Counterpick:
Halberd
Omega Gaur Plains*
City & Town
Skyloft
Windy Hill
Wooly World
Castle Siege

* Due to the default FD's distracting background, Omega Gaur Plains is being used as a replacement. You may counterpick to a different variant if you want, but your opponent may request a version of the stage that is identical in GAMEPLAY but is easier on the eyes.

For further details on the variants and which are in each category, check http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

Walk-offs proved bad enough to be banned. Wooly World is still under suspect testing.

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

Why not have Town and City as a starter?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Pilot Wings banned due to degenerate camping. (Not sure if it came up here already, but you can camp on the pontoons on the yellow plane and it's borderline impossible to approach, so both transitions have stupid strong camping.)

It's been brought up quite a bit for about a couple or so days now and is still being discussed. In fact, we were just talking about it.

On the topic of your stage list, looks great! I'm also curious on why Town and city isn't a starter though.

 

[Raziek]

It's been brought up quite a bit for about a couple or so days now and is still being discussed. In fact, we were just talking about it.

On the topic of your stage list, looks great! I'm also curious on why Town and city isn't a starter though.

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i tried today the "beat true all-star mode with captain falcon on nroaml or higher without healing".

Mario circuit's caves of life + CPU's perfect 100% success rate on teching made the second round a huge hassle, as if the combo of Olimar, Bowser Jr and Villager wasn't bad enough by itself.

so i don't think the problem is the stage killing you because of inexperience, but you surviving to huge %s thanks to experience. maybe i'm just too scrubbish, but eh. i really didn't like this.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

But don't they have different platform layouts from each other? Smashville has that one platform going left to right and vice versa constantly, while Town and city has three different layouts, the town's layout (three platforms moving), the layout while traveling (like FD), and the layout of the City(two platforms moving).

 

[Fenrir VII]

I still say town and city is too big to be a starter. The stage is pretty massive. I'm ok with it as a cp though

 

[Piford]

Redundant in combination with Smashville.

But the layouts are pretty different and the only thing that seems similar are the visuals. Did your testing show that characters seem to do well on one do well on the other?

 

[Raziek]

I HIGHLY disagree. It's a long, flat stage.

The platforms only barely interact with play. They play basically the same.