Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Eh, as much as I love playing on wrecking crew, it just isn't fair. It's easy to run away and the barrels really are a problem. Walk off stages could also continue to be a problem.View attachment 30794
Here is a stagelist by yours truly.
Now that I've gotten over my initial weekend of messing around, I'm starting up my stage research threads again. The first Wii U stage I'm covering is Mario Circuit, so go check that thread out. Hopefully this sort of focused topic will lead to more productive discussion; I try and limit the OP to objective fact but there's nothing wrong with healthy debate and conversation over possible exploits, legality, and whatever else in the replies.
On a related note, I am officially soliciting ideas and requests for what stages I should cover next. I have my own vaguely-ordered list but if one stage in particular is getting a lot of discussion then it's probably a good idea to suss it out sooner rather than later. (Apparently Mushroom Kingdom U is back on the table? That surprised me.)
There is no reason at all to ban Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, or Wii Fit Studio.Wrecking Crew I agree is probably beyond saving, but I'm still hopeful that at least one walkoff will find acceptance. There are 3 pretty good ones that really have nothing wrong with them other than being walkoffs. (Coliseum, Wii Fit Studio, Mario Galaxy)
Also my last post and shameless self-advertisement is at the bottom of the last page so I'll quote myself for visibility. Hopefully @Shaya won't hit me with the mod hammer for this.
I'm in favor of those 3 in case it wasn't clear, it's just that a lot of people seem to think walkoffs have cooties or something.There is no reason at all to ban Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, or Wii Fit Studio.
If you don't like 'em, strike 'em. But you can't ban them just because you don't like walk-offs. Frankly, I think they should be starters, but making them CPs is a reasonable concession.
You should look into gamer, it is an interesting stage.
So I'm pretty open-minded about walkoffs, and don't want to see them banned for no reason. It really irks me when people speak like walkoffs or hazards are implicitly bad.There is no reason at all to ban Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, or Wii Fit Studio.
If you don't like 'em, strike 'em. But you can't ban them just because you don't like walk-offs. Frankly, I think they should be starters, but making them CPs is a reasonable concession.
You should look into gamer, it is an interesting stage.
You put yourself in extreme danger by getting close enough to a walk-off to do what you are describing.It's too easy to gimp people on walk-offs. The entire concept of ledge came is erased by them, and instead you risk characters with good throws/attacks with a lot of knockback gimping people into the blast zones. Even with the platforms the stages carry, camping is encouraged by them so you can force some sort of approach that inevitably leads to an early KO. It's disproportionately rewarding.
There's some game theory about balanced striking going on with the numbers 5, 9, 13, 17, 21... being favored over the other odd numbers for more procedural fairness (it's not my concept so I don't really want to defend it, but it does make some sense to me). Once we had a pool of 33 candidate stages, we tried to see if 13 could be found for simplicity and speed, but it wasn't practical since the 15 excluding all of those stages were just so clearly good to us that cuts became painful so adding two and accepting 17 became what we wanted to try (so this is a procedural test as well as a stage test). Woolly World is likewise included because we want to see it actually in action. I have little faith in the stage, but it's a relatively non-risky way to test the gameplay dynamics of both walk-off stages and "not much ground" stages all at once while also being important to include for ruleset coherency (it's not a permanent walk-off and it has no hazards; we need a very explicit reason to ban it that we can easily verbalize which will likely be produced most efficiently by actually playing on it for a while). We aren't Atlantic North so we're not going to treat the other stages in the game like they're just gone forever; this is a very experimental ruleset with everything else still on the table based on the results of early testing.So why couldn't you put all 4 stages on instead of just 2? Also I'd think Luigi's Mansion is much better than Wooly World.
But it's not okay that this is a thing. It's far safer than spiking a character off a stage, and not to mention, early KOs are going to happen more frequently due to the proximity of the blast zone to where the characters are fighting.Well, I wouldn't use the word "gimp" or even "rewarding"; it creates as much, if not more, risk for the walk-off camper as the victim.
This is, too, a very good reason to ban walk-offs.The issue isn't that it is too strong, the issue is that no one should ever be allowed to just up and declare "OK NEXT GRAB WINS" regardless of %.
Some of those Starters should be C/Ps and several of those C/Ps aren't viable. Unless Port Town has significantly changed, it's going to stay banned like it was in Brawl. Car hazards are way too disruptive and powerful and come without warning. I explained last page why Norfair is ridiculous.View attachment 30794
Here is a stagelist by yours truly.
Okay, I don't really get how banning a stage just to get a balanced number makes sense, but I'm not that well versed in game theory.There's some game theory about balanced striking going on with the numbers 5, 9, 13, 17, 21... being favored over the other odd numbers for more procedural fairness (it's not my concept so I don't really want to defend it, but it does make some sense to me). Once we had a pool of 33 candidate stages, we tried to see if 13 could be found for simplicity and speed, but it wasn't practical since the 15 excluding all of those stages were just so clearly good to us that cuts became painful so adding two and accepting 17 became what we wanted to try (so this is a procedural test as well as a stage test). Woolly World is likewise included because we want to see it actually in action. I have little faith in the stage, but it's a relatively non-risky way to test the gameplay dynamics of both walk-off stages and "not much ground" stages all at once while also being important to include for ruleset coherency (it's not a permanent walk-off and it has no hazards; we need a very explicit reason to ban it that we can easily verbalize which will likely be produced most efficiently by actually playing on it for a while). We aren't Atlantic North so we're not going to treat the other stages in the game like they're just gone forever; this is a very experimental ruleset with everything else still on the table based on the results of early testing.
The springs on windy hill don't seem like that much of the problem. First, they aren't there all the time. Second, if you use the springs to aid your recovery, your put into a position that's easily punishably by your opponent, since as far as I can tell it always puts you in the same spot. It still always better to sweet spot the ledge unless you possibly cannot make it back to the stage.Ok. Let's talk Windy Hill Zone. What are people seeing to make the stage neutral? A I missing something or is everyone overlooking the springs on the sides of the stage?
What about if you're recovering from under the stage and the spring appears, bouncing you straight down to your death? It's happened more times than you'd expect. It's not like the waterfall in skyloft where you still have a chance. If you are recovering and the spring appears, you're dead. Damage percentage means nothing. You die.The springs on windy hill don't seem like that much of the problem. First, they aren't there all the time. Second, if you use the springs to aid your recovery, your put into a position that's easily punishably by your opponent, since as far as I can tell it always puts you in the same spot. It still always better to sweet spot the ledge unless you possibly cannot make it back to the stage.
Again, it's not a question of it being optimal or even good. It's a strategy that is so toxic that we can't ever allow either player the option of doing it.Fo walk-off camping, in theory it just doesn't work. If I am in the lead, why should I want to risk my lead in order to win? There are much safer options that can allow me to win, so why bother putting my lead at risk? And if I'm behind, then the person in the lead has no reason to approach me. If he just waits out the clock he wins so I'm forced to not walk-off camp. The only reason walk-off camping seems to work is because people think it does.
Don't the springs float up from the bottom? They don't just pop in and out right? If they float up from the bottom and then you should be able to react and either land on the spring or avoid getting hit by it.What about if you're recovering from under the stage and the spring appears, bouncing you straight down to your death? It's happened more times than you'd expect. It's not like the waterfall in skyloft where you still have a chance. If you are recovering and the spring appears, you're dead. Damage percentage means nothing. You die.
But why did you walk-off camp? If it wasn't fun and there were always better options, why do it? (I'm actually being curious)Again, it's not a question of it being optimal or even good. It's a strategy that is so toxic that we can't ever allow either player the option of doing it.
It's not just in theory. In some games I played, with all stages legal, I DID walk-off camp in certain matchups. Robin really enjoys it, as does Little Mac. (Again, in certain matchups)
The Mom uses the exact same tells as the Gamer minigame. I'll use this smiley for danger ones:I'm in favor of those 3 in case it wasn't clear, it's just that a lot of people seem to think walkoffs have cooties or something.
Gamer is a ton of fun, especially with the not-music soundtrack that turns it halfway into Silent Hill or something. Mom is surprisingly easy to avoid since she can't cover the whole stage at once, and there are a few particular quirks to her that I'm looking forward to discussing whenever I eventually get around to covering the stage in my research topics.
What about when she appears to be floating upside down and you can only see her feet?The Mom uses the exact same tells as the Gamer minigame. I'll use this smiley for danger ones:
For window:
For TV:
- She walks by the window normally and opens.
- She walks by the window, dips down, then comes back up and opens.
- She walks over and breaks the window.
- A lookalike that looks like her, but the hair bobs a bit, it's the old man.
- Occasionally, the old man as lookalike and her will cross paths, bow, and then continue. Mom usually doesn't open the window here.
For Door:
- The TV flips through channels, and on the third or 4th, Mom's on the TV and looks out.
- Same as #1, but no mom.
- Turns on with just static, then she's in the TV and looks out.
- Same as #3 but no Mom.
- Some other tell for the one where she jumps out and walks across the room. The initial music on the preview is what goes here.
- The cat opens the door.
- Door randomly opens with nothing.
- Foot step sounds, then she opens the door
- Running step sounds, then she opens the door quickly.
I probably missed a few, but that's most of them. I think there might be one where she comes in through the window too.
She's quite predictable. It could be that it could be legal if the only song was the default Gamer track, as that helps out a ton with the tells.
I haven't personally seen that one yet. I have to assume that's a window one.What about when she appears to be floating upside down and you can only see her feet?
There's another one. Sometimes there will be a drawing easel on the stage in place of one of the various platform setups. The pages flip back every so often. Sometimes it will reveal an image of Mom, which will activate a second or two later. Unlike her normal searching, drawing-Mom covers the whole stage at once.The Mom uses the exact same tells as the Gamer minigame. I'll use this smiley for danger ones:
For window:
For TV:
- She walks by the window normally and opens.
- She walks by the window, dips down, then comes back up and opens.
- She walks over and breaks the window.
- A lookalike that looks like her, but the hair bobs a bit, it's the old man.
- Occasionally, the old man as lookalike and her will cross paths, bow, and then continue. Mom usually doesn't open the window here.
For Door:
- The TV flips through channels, and on the third or 4th, Mom's on the TV and looks out.
- Same as #1, but no mom.
- Turns on with just static, then she's in the TV and looks out.
- Same as #3 but no Mom.
- Some other tell for the one where she jumps out and walks across the room. The initial music on the preview is what goes here.
- The cat opens the door.
- Door randomly opens with nothing.
- Foot step sounds, then she opens the door
- Running step sounds, then she opens the door quickly.
I probably missed a few, but that's most of them. I think there might be one where she comes in through the window too.
She's quite predictable. It could be that it could be legal if the only song was the default Gamer track, as that helps out a ton with the tells.
Where do you hide from drawing Mom, then? And if there's nowhere to hide for the drawing one, then could you just No Contest and try it again? I'm sure it's pretty rare. I've only had the Easel once, and she didn't come out.There's another one. Sometimes there will be a drawing easel on the stage in place of one of the various platform setups. The pages flip back every so often. Sometimes it will reveal an image of Mom, which will activate a second or two later. Unlike her normal searching, drawing-Mom covers the whole stage at once.
Moves-across-the-room-Mom always returned to the TV and did a few more searches before leaving through the door or, once, by jumping out the window. Mom is weird.
You can hide in the shadows, like normal. I've had this happen to me once.Where do you hide from drawing Mom, then? And if there's nowhere to hide for the drawing one, then could you just No Contest and try it again? I'm sure it's pretty rare. I've only had the Easel once, and she didn't come out.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Drawing Mom's attack is still affected by the shadows, but unlike normal Mom where a) the angle she looks at the stage will bend the shadows and b) she only looks at half the stage at a time, Drawing Mom's attack is completely head on (so you need to be directly behind a solid object) and looks at the whole stage at once.Where do you hide from drawing Mom, then? And if there's nowhere to hide for the drawing one, then could you just No Contest and try it again? I'm sure it's pretty rare. I've only had the Easel once, and she didn't come out.
Wow Ness, always finding glitches in all the good stagesWell Mario Circuit has a bit of a glitch. Didn't see it mentioned here yet:
I've played several here, and it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue. In fact, as far as anyone here can tell, Windy Hill is just a great stage.I too am wondering on Windy Hill but purely cuz it's just too big. I've been playing matches on it, and running away a ton is becoming a big issue.
Maybe when stage sharing is a thing. Right now, any suggestions of it have been shot down elsewhere.wii u list is looking sweet. Are people still in talks of making a few generic custom stages that could be tourney viable?
The thing is, if a stage can be perfectly viable in tournament play, why not include it to help grow the meta of the game?So... am I the only one here in favor of a more conservative list? Or does being picky mean I'm just totally insane? Is it really just me, am I totally alone here? Someone please tell me I'm not nuts.
I'd rather have a few great stages than a bunch of mediocre to bad ones. I don't want to feel like I'm fighting the stage more than I'm fighting my opponent, a lot of the complicated and moving stages just feel too distracting to me. And I sure as hell don't want stages that completely remove the recovery/edgeguarding mechanic from the game, absolutely no to walkoffs. Stages must have all four blast lines present, period, end of story. I can at least see where people are coming from with stages that only have brief temporary walkoffs, but hell no to permanent ones, never ever. Removing the bottom blast line is like removing the heart and soul of Smash!
If it were up to me, I'd keep the list nice and small:
Starter
Final Destination
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town and City
Counterpick
Duck Hunt
Maybe Big Battlefield, playtest it and see if it's Too Big™ or not
Maybe Kongo Jungle, playtest it and see if it's campable here and whether or not sharking is a big deal
Omega stages (in sets with bans, banning FD counts as banning Omegas)
Miiverse (in sets with bans, banning Battlefield counts as banning Miiverse)
This is a minimum of 6 stages if we don't include Big BF and Kongo and don't count Omegas and Miiverse as separate, same size as Melee. Could go up to 8 if BBF and KJ are good. That's good enough for me, if there were more great stages I'd love to add them (Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story DLC pls), but I'd rather not add bad ones just for the sake of having more.
The biggest problem I have with Wuhu is that it transforms so fast and frequently, doesn't give you enough time to stop and fight as you're just constantly moving too much. It also serves as a major buff to recoveries as you can often get saved by an incoming stop before you hit the bottom blast line. I also just hate swimming, stupid mechanic.
If people really insist on having one of the transforming stages present, I'd say Mario Circuit is the least stupid out of all the ones in SSB4. I still don't like when it blocks blast lines, and I wish it slowed down, but I could begrudgingly put up with it if I truly have to...
Windy Hill's weirdass gravity is stupid. The windmill is stupid. The springs are stupid. If not for those it'd be good, but since those are there, I say no.
As for the subject of custom stages once the patch makes them shareable, it sounds nice on paper but I just can't see how anyone could come to a consensus on which ones to use. The only way I could see it working out is if we only use recreations of old stages and static versions of new ones (Pyrosphere, you could've been so good!), but even then I expect long drawn out arguments over whether the coordinates are correct or whether a platform needs to be moved a pixel to the right. I fear a scenario where every TO is using a different custom stagelist, and newbies get confused as hell trying to get used to stages they've never seen/practiced before. If we're able to make it work out, great, but I'm not terribly optimistic here.
Because they're just bad stages that are too distracting to fight on. As I said, I would rather have a few great stages than a lot of terrible ones.The thing is, if a stage can be perfectly viable in tournament play, why not include it to help grow the meta of the game?
The problem is that they completely remove one of the most central game mechanics. There's no way for walkoffs to not have that problem.Do walkoff stages suffer the same problem as previous iterations?
The problem is that the risk / reward is skewed by damage percent. Let's suppose I'm at the blast zone. If either of us lands a grab, the other one is dead. This kind of seems fair, if a bit volatile, but you have to realize that we may not have equal damage. Suppose I just took your first stock playing "fairly" and am now at 110% damage. If you get the kill on me at the blast zone, I have almost nothing to lose, because I would have been dead in 1-2 hits anyway. However, if I get the kill on you, the reward for me is utterly massive as I get to take an entire stock just like that.You put yourself in extreme danger by getting close enough to a walk-off to do what you are describing.