Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[LiteralGrill]

My thoughts on which stages from the list should actually be tested:

Luigi's Mansion: This one for SURE. Wow I was not expecting so much support for this stage. As much support as a stage we've been running! So definitely we need to see if it needs legalizing.
Big Battlefield: I know there are tournaments around running this too. This one is smart, let's see if size really is an issue here since that was the big concern.
Mushroom Kingdom U: This stage is LIKED by a lot of people. (The comments mentioned it a lot.) People have questioned this one here too, it seems like a good fit to be tested.
Windy Hill Zone: People here have asked repeatedly why this one is banned. I spose others aren't having issues on it we had. Let's give it another shot and see how it turns out.

These ones are more eh...

Wooly World: This one is brought up now and then... I really can't see it working out very well as it has many issues, but maybe it deserves it's chance in the sun.
Orbital Gate Assault: Another one that is talked about a lot. I want to settle this one once and for all, but I honestly think the stage has too many issues against it.
Norfair: I know a lot about this stage from Brawl, maybe others just don't have the knowledge of it. So many people feel this one is rather intrusive so I think even if it plays well legalizing it would upset many people.

For the rest, I don't think it's worth it:

Pilotwings: We know Pilotwings is busted. If I put it in a tournament I doubt many people will try to camp and break it either because most people don't even know it's possible. I don't really want it in there when we already know it's bad no matter what.
Skyworld: Skyworld has loads of issues we already know about, so I doubt that one is worth it.
Jungle Hijinx: Jungle Hijinx is going to suffer the "changes smash too much" syndrome. I doubt even if it played okay people would ever legalize it.
Kalos Pokemon League: We also know Kalos Pokemon League has far too many issues.
Garden of Hope: Garden of Hope has a lot of issues too, random weird exploits with sizes of things changing and doing weird things. We know how people feel about glitches already, plus the stage isn't exactly perfect. I don't think it will garner enough support to be legal.

Just a note, Mario Circuit (Wii U). I'm curious to maybe put it on said list as well to get folks playing on it. It's gotten a lot of complaints and certainly has issues. Adding it to those top 4 would give me a solid list of 5 to work with too.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ LiteralGrill , I agree with your list..

Couple things I have a comment on.

First, Big Battlefield. I mean the stage is essentially 2 battlefields smushed together (with a top platform for good measure). So the stage is >1.5x (or 1.75x) the WIDTH of battlefield (making it, I believe, the largest 'legal' stage based on width). The stage has 6 platforms, with the top one unreachable for most characters without stairstepping on platforms or burning an upB (making it, I believe the largest 'legal' stage based on height).
Now in terms of fairness to all characters... Big BF is going to HEAVILY favor characters with high mobility... especially characters with a decent projectile game. As a guy who plays Pikachu and Megaman, I love that, but I can't argue that it's fair. Now as a CP you expect some imbalance here and there, but legalizing this stage will screw all slower/less mobile characters, which is not a small number, and benefit the chars I mentioned above, which again... not a small number.

Even if the stage can be proven to be fair for everybody (which I don't see how it can)... the size is simply going to promote camping and extend matchups (with or without camping). In a tournament setting, where long matches are unfavorable... this is disruptive. There are other large stages to benefit the matchups that I mentioned above to a lesser extent, and serve the same purpose.

So in summary, the stage is unfair, promotes long matches, and is redundant with better stages. I'm ok if it's tested, but I personally feel the stage should never be legal in a tournament setting.


2nd, Norfair.
So I actually don't have a problem with the lava, and you're right... most people jump on that.
I think the problem with this stage is really the size/layout, which again highly benefits mobile chars and camping, and gives chars with a lesser recovery a much better chance than any other stage. While sharking is no longer an issue, the other implications that this stage had from Brawl still exist and make it drastically different/worse than any other legal stage.
When you add all that and THEN throw in the lava, yeah I understand the hate on this stage and actually agree with a non-tested ban.

 

[Locke 06]

Big stages also help heavies because they can live longer and accumulate more rage. Just putting that out there even though I agree... Big Battlefield is too big and the runaway possibility is too strong (can you imagine trying to catch pikachu as a somewhat slow character on this stage?)

 

[Fenrir VII]

Big stages also help heavies because they can live longer and accumulate more rage. Just putting that out there even though I agree... Big Battlefield is too big and the runaway possibility is too strong (can you imagine trying to catch pikachu as a somewhat slow character on this stage?)

Or Sonic. lol
Or even Diddy with all the edge canceled sideBs.... *shudder

And yeah you're right on heavies... All those poor slow/light characters though. lol. RIP Robin / Zelda / Kirby / Shulk / Peach / Luigi etc.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Fenrir VII I see exactly what you say on Big Battlefield, which is why I figured it needed to be banned from the beginning. Even if it ruins one testing tournament, it would at least dispel forever the idea it might be usable. I'll have to think on that one though as you're correct, it's really Ridley too big.

 

[Piford]

My thoughts on which stages from the list should actually be tested:

Luigi's Mansion: This one for SURE. Wow I was not expecting so much support for this stage. As much support as a stage we've been running! So definitely we need to see if it needs legalizing.
Big Battlefield: I know there are tournaments around running this too. This one is smart, let's see if size really is an issue here since that was the big concern.
Mushroom Kingdom U: This stage is LIKED by a lot of people. (The comments mentioned it a lot.) People have questioned this one here too, it seems like a good fit to be tested.
Windy Hill Zone: People here have asked repeatedly why this one is banned. I spose others aren't having issues on it we had. Let's give it another shot and see how it turns out.

These ones are more eh...

Wooly World: This one is brought up now and then... I really can't see it working out very well as it has many issues, but maybe it deserves it's chance in the sun.
Orbital Gate Assault: Another one that is talked about a lot. I want to settle this one once and for all, but I honestly think the stage has too many issues against it.
Norfair: I know a lot about this stage from Brawl, maybe others just don't have the knowledge of it. So many people feel this one is rather intrusive so I think even if it plays well legalizing it would upset many people.

For the rest, I don't think it's worth it:

Pilotwings: We know Pilotwings is busted. If I put it in a tournament I doubt many people will try to camp and break it either because most people don't even know it's possible. I don't really want it in there when we already know it's bad no matter what.
Skyworld: Skyworld has loads of issues we already know about, so I doubt that one is worth it.
Jungle Hijinx: Jungle Hijinx is going to suffer the "changes smash too much" syndrome. I doubt even if it played okay people would ever legalize it.
Kalos Pokemon League: We also know Kalos Pokemon League has far too many issues.
Garden of Hope: Garden of Hope has a lot of issues too, random weird exploits with sizes of things changing and doing weird things. We know how people feel about glitches already, plus the stage isn't exactly perfect. I don't think it will garner enough support to be legal.

Just a note, Mario Circuit (Wii U). I'm curious to maybe put it on said list as well to get folks playing on it. It's gotten a lot of complaints and certainly has issues. Adding it to those top 4 would give me a solid list of 5 to work with too.

Last time didn't you do a random stage selection for every match? So it wouldn't matter if you had an easy or hard number of stages to work with. I think random is the best way to do it at least until later because if not probably 90% of matches are going to end up on Luigi's Mansion.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Last time didn't you do a random stage selection for every match? So it wouldn't matter if you had an easy or hard number of stages to work with. I think random is the best way to do it at least until later because if not probably 90% of matches are going to end up on Luigi's Mansion.

To ensure more consistent results, I'm considering each round declaring which stage will be played on. That way everyone plays on each stage equally.

 

[Piford]

To ensure more consistent results, I'm considering each round declaring which stage will be played on. That way everyone plays on each stage equally.

That's actually smart. Although you could probably let people strike for the top matches. Also if you want to do 5 stages, you could make a science testing tournament, and then maybe follow it with a sketchy science testing tournament where you test Woolly World, Orbital Gate, Norfair, Garden of Hope, and 1 other stage.

 

[LiteralGrill]

That's actually smart. Although you could probably let people strike for the top matches. Also if you want to do 5 stages, you could make a science testing tournament, and then maybe follow it with a sketchy science testing tournament where you test Woolly World, Orbital Gate, Norfair, Garden of Hope, and 1 other stage.

I may still test a few of the more questionable stages there as well, we'll just have to see how it goes. I would probably allow FLSS striking for the top cut like you suggested as well though since it would be nicer for people.

 

[ATH_]

I'll be hosting an actual Online Wii U tournament soon, and I'd like to get opinions on my stagelist (12):

Starters(5):
Final Destination / Omega Palutena's (not other omegas)
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Town and City

Counterpicks(7):
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2 (Actually pretty good, imo.)
Halberd

Pokemon Stadium 2 is allowed because it actually takes a decent amount of time for the stage to transform. This makes it not so based on the transformations. The transformations seem to last an amount of time between 20-40 seconds, which also makes them shorter than the intervals that you wait for it to enter a transformation. The only transformations are are really intrusive (seemingly) are the Ice and Flying types. It's possible we may remove it, but we like it.

First game's starters are a simple 1:1:1:1 stage strikings. Then they go to the remaining one. If either player thinks FD's background is intrusive then they must choose Omega Palutena's.

Counterpicks work similarly, in the second game, they use the 1:2:2:1 method with the Loser going first. Then the Loser picks the stage of the remaining 6.

Last game is as simple as a 1:1:1:1 striking method where the Loser goes first, then the Loser picks of the remaining two stages.

I personally like this a lot, it doesn't have controversial stages aside from PS2 and Skyloft. It's possible that we may take both of them out and stick with the solid 10 stage stagelist. Idk, thoughts?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I personally like this a lot, it doesn't have controversial stages aside from PS2 and Skyloft. It's possible that we may take both of them out and stick with the solid 10 stage stagelist. Idk, thoughts?

Keep the stagelist EXACTLY as is. Don't cut Skyloft and PS2, they really are good stages, especially Skyloft (I get some Brawl players resent PS2).

That list looks like exactly what Hypest will be running in the future (barring any stages becoming loves in the stage testing tournament). Seriously, your list is amazing. Use it!

 

[ATH_]

Keep the stagelist EXACTLY as is. Don't cut Skyloft and PS2, they really are good stages, especially Skyloft (I get some Brawl players resent PS2).

That list looks like exactly what Hypest will be running in the future (barring any stages becoming loves in the stage testing tournament). Seriously, your list is amazing. Use it!

Thanks for the feedback! Glad to know that someone thinks this list is good. :3

 

[Fenrir VII]

How is Skyloft more controversial than either Delfino or (especially) Wuhu? I find it to easily be the best of the 3.

Also I think Castle Siege is a better CP than half that list... considering you're striking CPs to 6, I would almost throw one more CP on there to make it an odd number (Luigi's Mansion, etc) so that Siege is allowed.

Otherwise... *applauds*

 

[ATH_]

How is Skyloft more controversial than either Delfino or (especially) Wuhu? I find it to easily be the best of the 3.

Also I think Castle Siege is a better CP than half that list... considering you're striking CPs to 6, I would almost throw one more CP on there to make it an odd number (Luigi's Mansion, etc) so that Siege is allowed.

Otherwise... *applauds*

I personally am against Siege being a stage because of it's second transformation. The statues are the worst and it just isn't fun to play on that transformation in general. Luigi's Mansion was considered, but again, I'm trying to go for a universal stagelist that people will look at and say "Hm, okay, I don't agree with all of this but it's not BAD."

Wuhu Island is fantastic aside from the glitch with Ness. I chose not to have it be a starter due to this very reason, this way someone picking a character who you do not know of could not reduce it to Wuhu and surprise you with Ness. You would be able to ban Wuhu when you realize you're going against Ness.

 

[Fenrir VII]

To be clear, my comment is not anti-Wuhu... it's pro Skyloft. You mentioned Skyloft being controversial, and I don't see it at all, especially beyond Delfino and Wuhu. Wuhu is the only one of the three with a real killing hazard, so that's what warranted the "especially" there... I think the glitch is completely a non-issue.

Siege was legal for most Brawl events. Most people have accepted it in one way or another as legal in a game where people could abuse it much harder. The statues aren't more disruptive to the overall game than everything on Duck Hunt, and walkoff camping (A) isn't any worse than on any other transforming stage and (B) is more avoidable than practically anywhere else. At worst, people stall during the transformation. At best, they get more aggressive to try to get a horizontal combo for an early kill.
I'm adamantly against banning Siege in favor of Halberd, Wuhu, Duck Hunt, or PS2. I don't think there's anything that makes it more imbalanced or (certainly) more random than any of those.

 

[ATH_]

To be clear, my comment is not anti-Wuhu... it's pro Skyloft. You mentioned Skyloft being controversial, and I don't see it at all, especially beyond Delfino and Wuhu. Wuhu is the only one of the three with a real killing hazard, so that's what warranted the "especially" there... I think the glitch is completely a non-issue.

Siege was legal for most Brawl events. Most people have accepted it in one way or another as legal in a game where people could abuse it much harder. The statues aren't more disruptive to the overall game than everything on Duck Hunt, and walkoff camping (A) isn't any worse than on any other transforming stage and (B) is more avoidable than practically anywhere else. At worst, people stall during the transformation. At best, they get more aggressive to try to get a horizontal combo for an early kill.
I'm adamantly against banning Siege in favor of Halberd, Wuhu, Duck Hunt, or PS2. I don't think there's anything that makes it more imbalanced or (certainly) more random than any of those.

Ah, okay. I understand your points completely, I simply am against Siege being a stage on my list. If it was allowed in a tournament I went to, I wouldn't mind it. However, my list is meant for Online and to be the basics.

Also, I may not know so, what "actual hazard" is on Wuhu other than the Ness glitch?

 

[Piford]

Ah, okay. I understand your points completely, I simply am against Siege being a stage on my list. If it was allowed in a tournament I went to, I wouldn't mind it. However, my list is meant for Online and to be the basics.

Also, I may not know so, what "actual hazard" is on Wuhu other than the Ness glitch?

Balloon on the ledge transformation does 10% damage and the boat spikes similar to Pirate Ship.

 

[ATH_]

Balloon on the ledge transformation does 10% damage and the boat spikes similar to Pirate Ship.

I knew about the boat, but when does the Balloon come into play?

 

[Piford]

I knew about the boat, but when does the Balloon come into play?

On the ledge section, which would be the 4th stop if it lands there. It bright red and floats up from the bottom pretty slowly. It's not an issue at all, but it is a hazard none the less. It can't kill until really high percents anyways.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The Wuhu killing boat isn't a huge issue, but it is something that Delfino and Skyloft don't have so it's worth mentioning.

I guess I just don't understand how you can justify Siege being banned in favor of stages that are clearly more random or more disruptive with hazards, etc.
I mean "I don't like it" is an argument, sure. I just don't think that's a reason to ban a stage as a TO. should the players not be able to play on it if it's fair and not random? Considering your banning system, the winner gets to ban 3 stages... it's not like Siege is a must-ban for anybody so if they just don't like it (like you), burning a ban on it isn't unheard of.

Note that I'm not arguing for a ban of any of your stages. My personal stage list would be every stage you have (maybe sans PS2 but I never figured that one out) + Siege and maybe 1 more.

I just think it's a bit hypocritical to label Wuhu (killing boat and water mechanics), Duck Hunt (birds act the same as statues and screw certain things up, dog randomly stops punishments and landings), Halberd (hazards are slow... but they are hazards. And the stage greatly benefits certain chars that camp under platforms), PS2 (game physics change at random), etc as CP or "fantastic" stages while outright banning a stage that doesn't do anything worse than those because you don't like one 0:45 transformation on it.
Idk I'll be done on this... You asked for feedback, and I just think that's wrong and almost indefensible.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Thanks for the feedback! Glad to know that someone thinks this list is good. :3

Though wait! there is a fair point that Castle Siege is missing, not sure how I missed that. That's a pretty solid stage too, if it could be added that'd be awesome. I see you don't seem to like the stage though, can I ask why?

 

[Deleted member]

I keep seeing PS2 on legal stage lists and almost everybody thinks its a great stage now, but I've never heard why. Sure it has 1 minute in the normal (awesome, I might add) form, ~6-7 seconds of transforming, but then it has 30 seconds of a crappy transformation.

The ground section is ok although I still don't like the hill, the electric section is bad at best since it constantly pushes you offstage, forcing you to jump a lot or control the center (it shouldn't be so hard just to regain my footing after getting hit once), but the Ice and Flying transformations really kill the stage for me. The Ice section is a complete mess if you try to turn around. I haven't counted the exact time but as Zelda there was an absurdly long turn around animation, enough for a Meta Knight to get a dashing USmash on me. And the flying section… its just horrendous. I don't think I need to go into detail about how degenerate it is. Try getting hit offstage and jumping once, putting you in a bad position. Try jumping at all. It removes any kind of aerial approach and is very clunky to play on.

If somebody could explain to me why the transformations don't kill PS2, I'd gladly play on it.

Also, Wuhu is a bunch of legal transitions with very illegal transformations (besides the fencing arena).

 

[Fenrir VII]

This has absolutely nothing to do with stage legality, and I really can't explain why it is, but PS2 seems a lot more...fun this time around. I have the same general question that Pikablu has about it, but I personally like the stage a lot better than in Brawl.

 

[ATH_]

Though wait! there is a fair point that Castle Siege is missing, not sure how I missed that. That's a pretty solid stage too, if it could be added that'd be awesome. I see you don't seem to like the stage though, can I ask why?

Particularly the second transformation. The statues block attacks like projectiles and just really make it so you can't prevent camping. This of course is solved by both players separating or getting extremely aggressive, although, there would still be many people complaining that they got camped. It would be their fault, yes, but I can also understand and reason with the frustration. Which takes away from the overall fun of it.
As said, it's not a bad stage, I'm okay with going to a tournament and seeing and using the stage. Just not fit for my particular list is all.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The same. exact. issue exists on Skyloft, Delfino, and Wuhu for some of the transitions. Of course they are short but there are several of them, so it roughly evens out the amount of walkoff time to almost the same amount as Siege.

I'm sorry. I said I would be done, but this logic doesn't make sense. The statues break so easily that to combat camping, you dedicate a couple seconds to removing one of them and boom... problem solved (at least to the level of the other transforming stages). And that's if you don't just sit in the middle of them and wait for the camper (who can't projectile you, unlike the other stages) to come to you or the stage to change, forcing them to run or jump to make it back to the 3rd transform (a negative position for them).

I don't see how it's possible to defend Wuhu, Halberd, Duck Hunt, and PS2 and ban Siege. I think that's incredibly "I just don't like it" minded, and is destructive thinking for competitive stage lists.

...dislike.

 

[Piford]

Particularly the second transformation. The statues block attacks like projectiles and just really make it so you can't prevent camping. This of course is solved by both players separating or getting extremely aggressive, although, there would still be many people complaining that they got camped. It would be their fault, yes, but I can also understand and reason with the frustration. Which takes away from the overall fun of it.
As said, it's not a bad stage, I'm okay with going to a tournament and seeing and using the stage. Just not fit for my particular list is all.

You can't camp on castle siege second transformation, or at least not walk-off camp. Since the walk-off is temporary, if you attempt to camp it, all you will "gain" is an disadvantageous position from camping. When the walk-off dissapears, you are forced to approach your opponent and recover to the stage, which is something you don't want to do. So if you have nothing to gain from walk-off camping, then you can't walk-off camp. Also I'd say the statues help prevent projectile camping at the walk-offs since they can't spam projectiles to lure you to the walk-offs.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Particularly the second transformation. The statues block attacks like projectiles and just really make it so you can't prevent camping. This of course is solved by both players separating or getting extremely aggressive, although, there would still be many people complaining that they got camped. It would be their fault, yes, but I can also understand and reason with the frustration. Which takes away from the overall fun of it.
As said, it's not a bad stage, I'm okay with going to a tournament and seeing and using the stage. Just not fit for my particular list is all.

Piford raised good points above, but also worth noting the statues can be destroyed as well, making any circle camping become difficult as well. I guess I understand a bit why you don't like the stage though, for a third of the stage competition slows a lot. I would say players picking this stage understand that when they go in, you don't have to protect them from that, they have stage bans to protect themselves from it.

 

[Piford]

Piford raised good points above, but also worth noting the statues can be destroyed as well, making any circle camping become difficult as well. I guess I understand a bit why you don't like the stage though, for a third of the stage competition slows a lot. I would say players picking this stage understand that when they go in, you don't have to protect them from that, they have stage bans to protect themselves from it.

There's not really any circle-camping either because, as I said before, The statues only allow a circle in one direction, but circle camping requires a circle in both directions to work. After the circle-camper falls of the second statue, I can just turn around to catch him since he can't easily get back on the second statue.

 

[Uniit]

Since we are discussing about Skyloft, i would like to ear why this stage in considered legal over things like Castle's Siege or Wuhu Island. From my experience, at a improvised tournament with my friend at my place, one player completly lost a stock being comboed by the main island while the stage was moving. 2-3 hits and a star KO later, no one else considered this stage legal. Just picture it happening in a grand final on some large tournament...

I'm completly fine with hasards that you know are there, or gonna be there soon. Some good exemple are the boat at Wuhu's, or the ship arsenal at Halberd. You know they're here and you can actually work with it, trap your opponent in them, and generally make use of it. But it should not favor one character over another, like if the ness glitch on Wuhu was easy to do (i should even say "doable").

In Skyloft however, one should not get punished by eating a smash attack at the wrong time. I've surely ear the argument "but it's not often, it really happened once in 10min of willingly taking hit from the stage", but again, that's not fair if a player get kill by those and lost the game, for no reasons.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Since we are discussing about Skyloft, i would like to ear why this stage in considered legal over things like Castle's Siege or Wuhu Island. From my experience, at a improvised tournament with my friend at my place, one player completly lost a stock being comboed by the main island while the stage was moving. 2-3 hits and a star KO later, no one else considered this stage legal. Just picture it happening in a grand final on some large tournament...

I'm completly fine with hasards that you know are there, or gonna be there soon. Some good exemple are the boat at Wuhu's, or the ship arsenal at Halberd. You know they're here and you can actually work with it, trap your opponent in them, and generally make use of it. But it should not favor one character over another, like if the ness glitch on Wuhu was easy to do (i should even say "doable").

In Skyloft however, one should not get punished by eating a smash attack at the wrong time. I've surely ear the argument "but it's not often, it really happened once in 10min of willingly taking hit from the stage", but again, that's not fair if a player get kill by those and lost the game, for no reasons.

It's not unpredictable. Watch the background, and you can plan around it if it's the sort of thing you might find a concern though it really is a very small detail. The answer is pretty well that simple.

It shouldn't be legal "over" any of the other stages you listed though; these are all quality stages, and I'd say banning any of them is pretty crazy.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm so glad Kongo 64 is counterpick again. I don't understand why it lost its counterpick status in the first two games.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I'm so glad Kongo 64 is counterpick again. I don't understand why it lost its counterpick status in the first two games.

64, I don't know too much about.

Melee, the stage is ridiculous. It's so prone to circle camping in many matchups, like Fox v. Peach (Fox advantage), or the more well-known one, Peach v. Ganon.

It's not as big anymore, so its not an issue.

Also worth noting that it is still legal in Melee Doubles.

 

[Saikyoshi]

64, I don't know too much about.

Melee, the stage is ridiculous. It's so prone to circle camping in many matchups, like Fox v. Peach (Fox advantage), or the more well-known one, Peach v. Ganon.

It's not as big anymore, so its not an issue.

Also worth noting that it is still legal in Melee Doubles.

64, it was one of the few counterpicks until very recently. Now the only starter is Dream Land and the only counterpick is Peach's Castle... yeah, there's a reason the 64 boards are hardly ever on-topic anymore.

And while I see where you're coming from with Melee, I don't think it warrants a ban. Isn't circle camping classified under illegal stalling, anyway?



On another note, I fail to see why Gamer's banned. Yeah, 5-Volt's eye beams are powerful, but they're also very highly telegraphed and avoidable, unlike most lethal hazards. It at least needs testing.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

64, it was one of the few counterpicks until very recently. Now the only starter is Dream Land and the only counterpick is Peach's Castle... yeah, there's a reason the 64 boards are hardly ever on-topic anymore.

And while I see where you're coming from with Melee, I don't think it warrants a ban. Isn't circle camping classified under illegal stalling, anyway?



On another note, I fail to see why Gamer's banned. Yeah, 5-Volt's eye beams are powerful, but they're also very highly telegraphed and avoidable, unlike most lethal hazards. It at least needs testing.

Hyrule is the counter pick in 64, not Peach iirc.

The problem with banning circle camping is that its often hard to define and can lead to a giant mess in enforcing it, so you are just better off banning the stage.

Gamer is a terrible, terrible stage. 9-volt isn't actually very well telegraphed as often the stage pulls bluffs. Also, there are ceilings with the books and whatnot that prevent kills.

Gamer is awful.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay guys, it's official: We'll be hosting another stage testing tournament this Wednesday. I do not have the post up for it yet, but will probably have it up and going in a few hours, I promise to link it here.

As of now, this is what the stagelist for the event is looking like:

Luigi's Mansion
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Norfair
Windy Hill Zone

Stages I kept out and why:
Pilotwings, Kalos Pokemon League, and Skyworld: We know these are busted, testing them wold be pointless.
Wooly World: People talked about the issues on Skyworld where you could break a platform and the opponent couldn't recover. Try just standing on a platform the right way and lifting it to your opponent simply dies. While it takes stage knowledge, this amongst its other problems makes it unworthy
Orbital Gate Assault: The stage still is just far too disruptive and a massively powerful counterpick for characters strong in the air.
Garden of Hope: Weird abusable glitches, abusable camping spots, and is seriously WAY too big. This one wont stand a chance anyways.

Biggest Concern (Pun Intended)

Big Battlefield. I want to put to rest the "it's too big" argument once and for all, but it's so darn big I seriously worry it'll just end up ruining the experience people could have on these possibly better stages. Do you guys think it's worth it, or is it going to be dead either way?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Okay guys, it's official: We'll be hosting another stage testing tournament this Wednesday. I do not have the post up for it yet, but will probably have it up and going in a few hours, I promise to link it here.

As of now, this is what the stagelist for the event is looking like:

Luigi's Mansion
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Norfair
Windy Hill Zone

Stages I kept out and why:
Pilotwings, Kalos Pokemon League, and Skyworld: We know these are busted, testing them wold be pointless.
Wooly World: People talked about the issues on Skyloft where you could break a platform and the opponent couldn't recover. Try just standing on a platform the right way and lifting it to your opponent simply dies. While it takes stage knowledge, this amongst its other problems makes it unworthy
Orbital Gate Assault: The stage still is just far too disruptive and a massively powerful counterpick for characters strong in the air.
Garden of Hope: Weird abusable glitches, abusable camping spots, and is seriously WAY too big. This one wont stand a chance anyways.

Biggest Concern (Pun Intended)

Big Battlefield. I want to put to rest the "it's too big" argument once and for all, but it's so darn big I seriously worry it'll just end up ruining the experience people could have on these possibly better stages. Do you guys think it's worth it, or is it going to be dead either way?

Be sure to inform people that they can spot dodge the lava. In fact, just show them this video.

Either way, out of all these stages; I have a feeling only Luigi's Mansion and Windy Hill might survive this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wooly World: People talked about the issues on Skyloft where you could break a platform and the opponent couldn't recover. Try just standing on a platform the right way and lifting it to your opponent simply dies. While it takes stage knowledge, this amongst its other problems makes it unworthy

Back up a minute, there are destructible platforms on Skyloft?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Hyrule is the counter pick in 64, not Peach iirc.

The problem with banning circle camping is that its often hard to define and can lead to a giant mess in enforcing it, so you are just better off banning the stage.

Gamer is a terrible, terrible stage. 9-volt isn't actually very well telegraphed as often the stage pulls bluffs. Also, there are ceilings with the books and whatnot that prevent kills.

Gamer is awful.

I mean the beams hit at a very late frame. I'm not even considering the warnings/bluffs since I pay attention to the fight and not those.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Back up a minute, there are destructible platforms on Skyloft?

Typo: Skyworld I meant. Sorry!

 

[Nintendrone]

Since this seems to be as good a place as any to do this, I'll post what I plan to use for competitive events I'll run. If you're curious, I prefer 3 stock, 7 minutes.

Legal:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Mario Circuit
  • Some will cry banned, but the wall mechanic is an interesting way to reward stage control, and the damage can be avoided by checking the background. The Shy Guys are so slow that only a stupid or outplayed player will get hit.
• Delfino Plaza
  • A tame traveler. The water, sharking, and temp walkoffs are not big deals.
• Luigi's Mansion
  • The breaking pillars have strategic value that also combat a camper if used wisely. If size becomes an issue, this may become doubles only.
• Kongo Jungle 64
  • A unique layout. Barrel leaves player open, making it risky. Camping shouldn't be as bad as in Melee.
• Skyloft
  • See Delfino, but better. Transformations are quick and hazards are minor and predictable like the path.
• Halberd
  • A simple stage with hazards that are stupidly slow and telegraphed despite being strong.
• Lylat Cruise
  • Tilting isn't too bad. Layout's pretty good.
• Pokémon Stadium 2
  • Much better than Brawl. All forms have been improved either directly or indirectly.
• Castle Siege
  • An even more predictable transformer thanks to shorter loading. Second form's camping can be dealt with, and is temp anyways.
• Town and City
  • A nice layout that isn't static.
• Smashville
• Duck Hunt
  • All hazards are non-damaging and player-controlled.
• Windy Hill Zone
  • Not as big as it looks. The gravity isn't really a problem, nor is the windmill since it can scroll campers offscreen. The springs are always in the same spots and aren't really an issue.
• Wuhu Island
  • Probably the worst out of the 3 travelers, but a good stage nonetheless. Hazards are predictable, as is the path.

Singles only:

• Norfair
  • The lava isn't that big of a deal. It's not fast nor especially strong. The wall has strategic value, and the lava promotes conflict. The wave can be dodged with little precision. Changes to ledges improves the layout from Brawl. The lava shrinks the stage to where I think is too small for doubles.
• Orbital Gate Assault
  • 100% predictable and can be kept up with by standing still. Hazards are telegraphed and weak. Forcefield has strategic value. Some forms are too small for doubles, imo.
• Wii Fit Studio
  • Smallest of the 3 tame walkoffs. Unique platform layouts that don't kill off the top unlike Kalos. I compromised this to have 1 walkoff and let both this and Coliseum be legal since they seem to have equal legal value. Walkoffs are less exploitable than before thanks to no chaingrabs and bigger blast lines.

Doubles only:

• Big Battlefield
  • Too big for singles, despite regular Battlefield being good for doubles.
• Woolly World
  • A quirky stage that switches between walkoff and weighted platforms. Too big for singles, but should be better for doubles.
• Coliseum
  • See Wii Fit Studio. Platforms appear from bottom instead of top, and is the biggest of the 3 tame walkoffs. Walkoffs are harder to exploit with 4 players.

If you have any feedback on this or notable exceptions, let me know!