Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Nintendrone I find myself liking that list. Particularly your inclusion of Mario Circuit, Orbital Gate Assault, and the walkoffs.

 

[Nintendrone]

@ ParanoidDrone Thanks! Hopefully it is understood why I excluded some stages. In short, Kingdom U and Kalos were amazing until one freaking thing ruined them (Nabbit and the legendaries). Gamer was banned because Mom is strong and may randomly give no warning, and the random layout might add ceilings. I loved Pilotwings until the stupid yellow engines were a thing. These stupid design choices tick me off, especially Nabbit (the stage was perfect in the demo!).

 

[LiteralGrill]

OH

I didn't think about that... Should I maybe add in Wii Fit Studio just to make this whole walkoff thing get settled?

I hadn't considered the idea honestly. Thoughts?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

OH

I didn't think about that... Should I maybe add in Wii Fit Studio just to make this whole walkoff thing get settled?

I hadn't considered the idea honestly. Thoughts?

May as well to give it a shot. If it works then, hooray. If it doesn't, then at least we tried.

 

[KoM]

So I know this has likely been explained a billion times but could someone tell me how stalling/camping is done on pilot wings? I haven't seen it or heard it explained before. I'm sad its banned, I really, really love the energy that stage has.

 

[Nintendrone]

So I know this has likely been explained a billion times but could someone tell me how stalling/camping is done on pilot wings? I haven't seen it or heard it explained before. I'm sad its banned, I really, really love the energy that stage has.

The yellow plane has 2 round engines under the wings. If you jump to them, you are untouchable as you can't drop through the wings and it's risky to attack the engines when it has no ledges. And you're on the yellow plane for half the time, it sucks.

 

[KoM]

The yellow plane has 2 round engines under the wings. If you jump to them, you are untouchable as you can't drop through the wings and it's risky to attack the engines when it has no ledges. And you're on the yellow plane for half the time, it sucks.

That's sad. I love Pilotwings...

 

[Piford]

OH

I didn't think about that... Should I maybe add in Wii Fit Studio just to make this whole walkoff thing get settled?

I hadn't considered the idea honestly. Thoughts?

I'm not really sure if testing walk-offs at the same time as the other stages will really give it the testing it needs. A walk-off only tournament would make the most sense to me, as you can have a bunch of trails to see what's initially wrong with walk-offs and then see if people have the ability to counter any abuse.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay, after some work today I've been trying to figure out how the springs on Windy Hill Zone work.

From various tests, they seem to not have a timer or pattern of any kind whatsoever. They always seem to start with the springs out, but after that they either come up or spin 100% at random. So they can literally come our of nowhere to save/kill you. On top of this, hitting the sides of the springs automatically count as a hit "down" making their potential to kill you way higher then save you. They even sometimes like to send you down even when you land on top if you are close to their edges.

All done seemingly at random.

Just something worth considering about Windy Hill Zone. The springs really suck.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not really sure if testing walk-offs at the same time as the other stages will really give it the testing it needs. A walk-off only tournament would make the most sense to me, as you can have a bunch of trails to see what's initially wrong with walk-offs and then see if people have the ability to counter any abuse.

Sorry for double post, but I doubt a walk off only tournament is going to be in the cards. People seem to like the testing events with a variety, Wii Fit Studio would be my pick because with the mirrors it makes walkoff camping even easier to counter as it's easier to tell where you are.

ALSO HUGE NEWS!

We should have a streamer secured for the stage testing tournament. Real footage of the stages being played on! How hype is that?

 

[Piford]

Sorry for double post, but I doubt a walk off only tournament is going to be in the cards. People seem to like the testing events with a variety, Wii Fit Studio would be my pick because with the mirrors it makes walkoff camping even easier to counter as it's easier to tell where you are.

ALSO HUGE NEWS!

We should have a streamer secured for the stage testing tournament. Real footage of the stages being played on! How hype is that?

Yeah. I mean for the best results, a testing event thats uniform would actually be the best, but, as they say, give the people what they want.

 

[Blitzern]

I was playing on Castle Siege today and while I was on the ground, the stage transformed, sucking me under causing me to die. I'll get a video up soon.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I now have a topic up covering Orbital Gate Assault. It's quite a busy stage so it's possible I missed some detail or other; if you think I did, leave a comment there and I'll look into it.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Sorry for double post, but I doubt a walk off only tournament is going to be in the cards. People seem to like the testing events with a variety, Wii Fit Studio would be my pick because with the mirrors it makes walkoff camping even easier to counter as it's easier to tell where you are.

ALSO HUGE NEWS!

We should have a streamer secured for the stage testing tournament. Real footage of the stages being played on! How hype is that?

When is this? I finally have work though so I want to see this as it happens.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I now have a topic up covering Orbital Gate Assault. It's quite a busy stage so it's possible I missed some detail or other; if you think I did, leave a comment there and I'll look into it.

Dude, I've been learning some things on Norfair and was wondering if you would consider doing that stage next with my upcoming stage testing tournament so close. I can tell you everything I've found out about it currently, which is pretty much everything you need to know, I just lack a way to get pictures up for every stage "transformation" the lava causes. Think we could work together and have you get me some pictures?

The floor of lava seems to have a pattern. The floor will rise, stay risen, and fall back down at 12 second intervals. After that the floor will not rise again until 8 seconds pass.

The lava floor can rise to three positions, right under the first platform, right under the second platforms, and right under the third platforms, as the lava slowly rises to cover the second row.

The screen visually shakes whenever lava plumes are going to be fired, it gives you several seconds before.

There are tells when the walls of lava will come too. Several seconds before they appear you can see an almost glowing light (it's likely supposed to be lava) on either side of the screen (depending on what side the come from) that can give you fair warning for when they're going to come.

The walls do not have a timed pattern like the floors however, and a wall can show up an any point during the floor rising.

The big wave of lava will take 10 seconds from when the capsule shows up to when it vanishes to complete that entire "transformation". Afterwards the floor wont rise again for another 10 seconds before resuming the usual cycle.

For the wall of lava, you can hide inside the capsule, grab the ledge, use a move with temporary invincibility or time a good spotdodge to avoid it.

Did I do good research ParanoidSenpai! PLEASE NOTICE ME SENPAI!!!

Also, is there any good way to get snapshots off of you SD card and onto a computer? If so, maybe I can buy one and start contributing some stage research threads of my own to lighten up your workload!

When is this? I finally have work though so I want to see this as it happens.

We're going to start at 6PM EST. The stream hopefully starts then too.

 

[KoM]

I was playing on Castle Siege today and while I was on the ground, the stage transformed, sucking me under causing me to die. I'll get a video up soon.

I won that match because of it xD

 

[Blitzern]

Playing against a Marth from Smashladder, and I ended up SD'ing early in one of our matches. I made a comeback though and was going in with the momentum I had...UNTIL THE STAGE TRANSFORMED AND KILLED ME! xD

Is it known that you're supposed to jump when the stage transforms? Or is this a real bug?

 

[Blitzern]

I won that match because of it xD

Aye its you! xD

Video's up, check it out.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Playing against a Marth from Smashladder, and I ended up SD'ing early in one of our matches. I made a comeback though and was going in with the momentum I had...UNTIL THE STAGE TRANSFORMED AND KILLED ME! xD

Is it known that you're supposed to jump when the stage transforms? Or is this a real bug?

hm. that's odd... probably something about running on the slant while the stage is transforming. Good news is that this isn't like the Melee fall-thru stage glitches, in that you are technically on "ground" as it's happening and can jump out of it if you see yourself going down. Interesting, though.

 

[Piford]

It's a bug, but I believe it was in Brawl (or something like it). The thing is, while it was unfortunate, you kinda just sat there shielding instead of trying to jump back onto the stage.

 

[Blitzern]

It's a bug, but I believe it was in Brawl (or something like it). The thing is, while it was unfortunate, you kinda just sat there shielding instead of trying to jump back onto the stage.

I thought it would just set me on the ground but I guess not xD

 

[LiteralGrill]

Playing against a Marth from Smashladder, and I ended up SD'ing early in one of our matches. I made a comeback though and was going in with the momentum I had...UNTIL THE STAGE TRANSFORMED AND KILLED ME! xD

Is it known that you're supposed to jump when the stage transforms? Or is this a real bug?

Normally this does not happen and you don't need to jump. I wonder if it has something to do with you shielding when the transformation moved, can you replicate this? Because if it's not easy to duplicate there's still no real reason to ban the stage.

 

[Blitzern]

Normally this does not happen and you don't need to jump. I wonder if it has something to do with you shielding when the transformation moved, can you replicate this? Because if it's not easy to duplicate there's still no real reason to ban the stage.

I'll do some testing.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Big stages also help heavies because they can live longer and accumulate more rage. Just putting that out there even though I agree... Big Battlefield is too big and the runaway possibility is too strong (can you imagine trying to catch pikachu as a somewhat slow character on this stage?)

considering the quick attack ledge cancel, if you took pikachu to big battlefield you deserve to be wrecked.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dude, I've been learning some things on Norfair and was wondering if you would consider doing that stage next with my upcoming stage testing tournament so close. I can tell you everything I've found out about it currently, which is pretty much everything you need to know, I just lack a way to get pictures up for every stage "transformation" the lava causes. Think we could work together and have you get me some pictures?

The floor of lava seems to have a pattern. The floor will rise, stay risen, and fall back down at 12 second intervals. After that the floor will not rise again until 8 seconds pass.

The lava floor can rise to three positions, right under the first platform, right under the second platforms, and right under the third platforms, as the lava slowly rises to cover the second row.

The screen visually shakes whenever lava plumes are going to be fired, it gives you several seconds before.

There are tells when the walls of lava will come too. Several seconds before they appear you can see an almost glowing light (it's likely supposed to be lava) on either side of the screen (depending on what side the come from) that can give you fair warning for when they're going to come.

The walls do not have a timed pattern like the floors however, and a wall can show up an any point during the floor rising.

The big wave of lava will take 10 seconds from when the capsule shows up to when it vanishes to complete that entire "transformation". Afterwards the floor wont rise again for another 10 seconds before resuming the usual cycle.

For the wall of lava, you can hide inside the capsule, grab the ledge, use a move with temporary invincibility or time a good spotdodge to avoid it.

Did I do good research ParanoidSenpai! PLEASE NOTICE ME SENPAI!!!

Also, is there any good way to get snapshots off of you SD card and onto a computer? If so, maybe I can buy one and start contributing some stage research threads of my own to lighten up your workload!



We're going to start at 6PM EST. The stream hopefully starts then too.

Interesting results, I assumed Norfair's lava was all randomized. I'll verify it firsthand and then I can get a Norfair topic up pretty quickly. When's your tournament?

Getting snapshots off the SD card is super easy. Pop it in, take screenshots, and they're saved automatically. Take it out, put it in your computer, and open up the DCIM folder. There should be subfolders in the form 100NIN01. Inside are .jpg files named HNI0001 and matching .bin files. The .jpg is what you're after, you can copy them out and do whatever. Each subfolder holds up to 100 screenshots, it makes a new one for each batch of 100. AFAIK there's no way to "reset" the numbering.

You can also delete the files and subfolders from the SD card without real issue, but there's some sort of residual metadata lingering around that tells Smash there should be a file here but no actual data to go with it, it registers in the album as large red slashes through empty slots. L to select all and - to delete them from the Album menu clears that up in a jiffy.

 

[Blitzern]

Normally this does not happen and you don't need to jump. I wonder if it has something to do with you shielding when the transformation moved, can you replicate this? Because if it's not easy to duplicate there's still no real reason to ban the stage.

So far its not easy to duplicate. Even had another person try as well. Looks like it'll stay legal

 

[LiteralGrill]

Interesting results, I assumed Norfair's lava was all randomized. I'll verify it firsthand and then I can get a Norfair topic up pretty quickly. When's your tournament?

It's going to be on Wednesday. If you want to confirm the stuff I fofund that'd be awesome. If getting pictures is that easy, I can start taking on the tamer stages as well with minor things to notice (Windy Hill and Luigi's Mansion... I'm coming for you!!!)

Also, on another fun note Duck Hunt has a funny little glitch here.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

We're going to start at 6PM EST. The stream hopefully starts then too.

Great, so which stream is this?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Great, so which stream is this?

It will be on HypestStream on twitch as long as everything goes right!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, stuff like that could happen in Brawl; it was really rare, but you just had to be watching the screen at every transition and jump if you saw yourself sinking (very rare; I think every player saw it once or twice and that was about it). You just have to understand how it works; stages are hollow other than the surfaces so if you end up below you are on your way to a quick death. If I had to guess, Castle Siege's graphics are deceptive and the old form actually sinks instead of rises before the new form rises up. The thing is you can't be surprise killed; you can always react to this, and it was pretty much your bad for not reacting. I kinda wish that video didn't talk about banning stuff; that really hurt the video since it causes people to freak out over something that isn't a big deal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since @ LiteralGrill provided me with his own research, I was able to quickly verify it instead of working from scratch, so have a Norfair topic too.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Since the tournament is coming up, I thought it'd only make sense to make a research guide for Luigi's Mansion! Let me know if I did a good job.

 

[wildvine47]

So Woolly World is being exempted from testing because of it's... air tilting? The really slow tilting that you have to go out of your way on the stage to abuse, and that's often not enough of a difference to prevent recovery? You'd be better off edgeguarding in most every circumstance instead of running to the opposite end of the stage to slowly tilt it, by which point your opponent's probably already made it back onstage. I understand the concern with cheap tactics, but I again think it should be proven to be a problem via testing instead of just theorycrafting. Right now to me, it seems like a ridiculously unsafe strategy that more often than not will just give your opponent a free recovery while you're on the other side of the map.

Woolly World deserves to have it's "day in the sun" as you yourself said, before we ban it. If we allow it it serves as a fantastic counterpick stage for aerial characters like Jigglypuff and Peach, who, let's face it, aren't going to be overcentralizing or dominating tournaments. If the matches on it end up as bad as you're predicting, we can kill it, but if they don't, we're pre-killing a great stage for a character archetype that right now, struggles a bit more than most with many of our current legal stages.

And as many others have said before, it's much harder to unban a stage after it's banned than to ban one that was temporarily allowed. Look at Norfair. It's biggest problem's been fixed, but because it was banned before, people are hesitant to even go near the stage despite it not having any real avoidable problems anymore. So please, let's let Woolly World at least have a go, because if we don't even give it a chance now, people sure as hell won't in the future.

 

[Thinkaman]

As a "stage liberal" who hates Wooly World, has zero faith in it, and thinks it should be tested:

No one reasonable wants to ban Wooly World because of tilting platforms. That's actually pretty neat imo.

The problem is the incredibly campy upper layout, and the walk-off bottom layout--both of which are somewhat circle-campable.

 

[Timic83]

can we please legalise gamer its so rad and cool

also in brawl you could alter the shadow moses/spear pillar variation you got with a button press, maybe you can remove the ceiling variations from gamer with the same strats?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I was thinking the problems compounded together is what hurts the stage. Even for a testing tournament I wasn't sure it was worth possibly spoiling it with a really bad stage. If you guys think Wooly World deserves a shot though, I spose I can make an exception.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

can we please legalise gamer its so rad and cool

also in brawl you could alter the shadow moses/spear pillar variation you got with a button press, maybe you can remove the ceiling variations from gamer with the same strats?

I plan to cover Gamer within the next week or so (hopefully) since I do like it. Mom is relatively easy to avoid as long as you use the standard Gamer soundtrack and not one of the Warioware songs, since there are a lot of subtle audio cues to warn you that she might appear in one location or another. The other music tends to drown out these cues.

It's just that if she catches you, Mom is...deadly.

 

[Thinkaman]

I was thinking the problems compounded together is what hurts the stage. Even for a testing tournament I wasn't sure it was worth possibly spoiling it with a really bad stage. If you guys think Wooly World deserves a shot though, I spose I can make an exception.

I mean, I think all stages "deserve" a shot. I'm just really pessimistic on this one and would consider it a low priority.

I played several games on Wooly World over the last couple weeks. It was pretty consistently unenjoyable, and was the only stage we had time-out runaway style behavior emerge.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I mean, I think all stages "deserve" a shot. I'm just really pessimistic on this one and would consider it a low priority.

I played several games on Wooly World over the last couple weeks. It was pretty consistently unenjoyable, and was the only stage we had time-out runaway style behavior emerge.

I already have 5 stages that aren't exactly popular to take a look at. If the gameplay here isn't really good already, I'd rather let these few that either have large player support (Luigi's Mansion, Mushroom Kingdom U) Have been legal elsewhere (Windy Hill Zone and Mario Circuit U) or is an odd anomaly that people at least want tested a bit (Norfair). I spose, is this stage on the same level as Norfair in worth of testing?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm a liberal too, and I really don't feel Wooly World. The layout is just screaming for a circle camp to happen at any moment. It's icky, but at the same time, it deserves a fair shake I believe.