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Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

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Amazing Ampharos

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Argument from credibility is never convincing, but argument from credibility via proxy is even less convincing. If these people have the best reasons for the best rules, they should come out into the public sphere and participate in the discussion themselves. Trying to divine their intentions doesn't seem like a reasonable approach; it's always the best way to do things for everyone to lay out the reasons why they believe what they believe and for the best ideas to win in that exchange.

More importantly though, your argument can be summarized as "having many legal stages causes tourmaments to run more slowly which causes dire problems". That's not a question of who is a top TO or credible or whatever; that's a question of objective fact. Do tournaments with larger stage lists take longer than tournaments with smaller stage lists? If yes we can consider whether that delay is truly so problematic but if no we can discard the argument right away. My experiences over years in the Midwest which means I've been to tournaments with all kinds of stage lists tells me there's no real correlation. Tournaments run late due to loose TOing (not DQing when people aren't present at matches, not assigning stations, poorly coordinating player flow between multiple events, food breaks that are not strictly time regulated, pools that are simply run incorrectly, insufficient equipment, etc.). The actual stuff happening in the game doesn't seem nearly so important; matches that time out almost always average out with matches that go unusally quickly in the end and I've seen once ever a very campy player actually hold up a bracket whereas that other stuff I mentioned holds up events all the time. I'm not even really convinced that the conservative stages produce the fastest games (my experiences disagree there too), but I'm so unconvinced it slows down tournaments either way I'm not sure it matters. Most TOs I've talked to agree with what I'm saying too (certainly I've never, ever heard a Midwest TO say "my tournament ran late because I had too many legal stages") so I'm not even sure where this argument comes from; who in very particular asserts this reason for specific rules?
 

Daisy101

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In a monthly here, the TOs had Pilot Wings for testing. And oh boy, a Megaman picked it vs a Ness and nothing happened during the whole first minute. Everyone was watching because it was funny. Camping under the wings of the first plane is dumb. I don't think there's a safe way to enter vs someone in the wings. Surprisingly, it barely didn't go to timeout and the ness still won 2-0. But Pilot Wings is probably never gonna come back in Puerto Rico as a counterpick.
i went to a tourney, lost my last game on a L Bracket on Pilot Wings, its a camping & stalling stage, no need to giving a chance for this one.

Edited: also Anther's ladder changed some counterpick staged no long ago.
 
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Piford

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i went to a tourney, lost my last game on a L Bracket on Pilot Wings, its a camping & stalling stage, no need to giving a chance for this one.

Edited: also Anther's ladder changed some counterpick staged no long ago.
Yeah they removed PS2 just a few days ago :( for seemingly no reason. But I did complain about the lack of Skyloft and Wuhu Island, so they added those.
 

LiteralGrill

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Edited: also Anther's ladder changed some counterpick staged no long ago.
THEY ADDED SKYLOF AND WUHU ISLAND!!! YES!!!

They removed Pokemon Stadium 2... Aw...

Still I'm not surprised, PS2 is going to be one of those stages that's probably legal in some places and not in others, so I'll still take it.

And no Kongo Jungle which is kinda wack. We need to go bug him to get that on there.
 

Piford

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THEY ADDED SKYLOF AND WUHU ISLAND!!! YES!!!

They removed Pokemon Stadium 2... Aw...

Still I'm not surprised, PS2 is going to be one of those stages that's probably legal in some places and not in others, so I'll still take it.

And no Kongo Jungle which is kinda wack. We need to go bug him to get that on there.
I mean he seems pretty chill about changing the stage list. I simply sent him a feedback on the website, then the next day got a response and Skyloft and Wuhu were legal. If we all just do it to get KJ64 and PS2 back he'll probably do it.
 

LiteralGrill

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I mean he seems pretty chill about changing the stage list. I simply sent him a feedback on the website, then the next day got a response and Skyloft and Wuhu were legal. If we all just do it to get KJ64 and PS2 back he'll probably do it.
I can live without PS2... I do know people have objections. but KJ64 missing really confuses me. Send him another message and I might too.
 

ParanoidDrone

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is anyone have a good idea for Mario Galaxy Stage, sure it dont have drop deathzone but it look interesting to give a shot about this one.
Mario Galaxy, like Wii Fit Studio and Coliseum, is in the weird position of being a completely fine stage other than the fact that it's a walkoff. Personally I don't mind, but I'm in the minority here.

I believe these three are the first instances of walkoffs that don't have some other kind of craziness going on though, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
 

Daisy101

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If it was PS1, it could be understandable, PS1 transform phase are not this problematic compare to PS2, but its probably me in general. giving a shot to skyworld is possible too, i do not seen this one a lot yet.
 

Noa.

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So what do you guys think of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMqS3lqxU8

I'm not saying this automatically makes DK 64 banned or anything. But it seems like a very difficult strategy to combat if you don't have a projectile that can somehow interrupt her stalling.

I really like this stage but I do have concerns for it's potential to stall.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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So what do you guys think of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMqS3lqxU8

I'm not saying this automatically makes DK 64 banned or anything. But it seems like a very difficult strategy to combat if you don't have a projectile that can somehow interrupt her stalling.

I really like this stage but I do have concerns for it's potential to stall.
If you steal the cannon from her she's dead. You should be able to do this on reaction. I would be very surprised to see this tactic prove to be non-suicidal in the long run.
 

WritersBlah

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is anyone have a good idea for Mario Galaxy Stage, sure it dont have drop deathzone but it look interesting to give a shot about this one.
This is just me speaking, but of the three viable walkoff stages, Mario Galaxy is probably the one I like the least. Unlike Wii Fit and Coliseum, it has a completely static platform layout which sounds great at first, but the platforms are just at really annoying heights that make projectile camping super easy. That plus gravity screwing up some projectiles while others work fine and just being one of the easier stages to walkoff-camp on, despite whether or not it's a good strategy, really just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, if a tournament I went to decided to have it legal (extremely unlikely, but just saying) I'd play on it regardless, but even being a stage liberal myself, if we're going to legitimately consider walkoff stages, I don't think Galaxy should be one of them, because here's the other issue I have.

Yes, we have three decent walkoff stages, but I feel like making all of them legal is a really bad idea, as it makes the game significantly more overcentralizing. Little Mac probably isn't high tier, but if all these stages got legalized, I can bet you he'll rise up to the top faster than the Ice Climbers in Brawl. So I say ideally, we first test out all of them to really make sure they're not broken like they were in previous games, and then we choose the one we feel promotes the best gameplay, two if we're feeling frisky, but definitely not all three. (Personally, Coliseum is my favorite of the three, but Wii Fit has merits of its own imo.)
 
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Fenrir VII

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Rising Pound stall is usable everywhere, but banned in tournament. Barrel stalling can be banned as well if it proves problematic (limit it to 2/3 consecutive barrel shots... I mean this is pretty obvious).

But like others said... assuming the CPU was smart enough, Greninja could have stolen the bucket, leading to a dead jiggly several times there.
 

Terotrous

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I'm always sceptical of any stalling technique or "inescapable combo" performed on the AI. After all, we all know about the Lucina Battlefield Stall technique for Cruel Brawl which is easily shut down by any downsmash.
 

~ Gheb ~

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If I were in the position of a TO I'd probably use the following stage ruleset:

Starter:
Smashville
Battlefield
[Final Destination] Omega
Lylat Cruise
Town and City

Counterpick:
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Delfino Plaza
Wuhu Island
Halberd

-> 2 stage bans.

Other stages like Orbital Gate Assault, Big Battlefield and PS2 can be added as counterpicks too but at that point I'd consider as many as 5 stage bans. Personally I wouldn't mind that happening but realistically it's pretty unlikely imo. I honestly think classic FD should be banned though because the visuals are just a bit too much for a couple of people. Unlike minor hazards or transformations you can't really adapt to what's happening in the background.

:059:
 

Noa.

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Stealing the canon from jiggs would be the best way to handle it, and a tatctic that any character can use. Thanks I hadn't thought of it. It makes me happy that there's a strong way to punish it. I like the stage a lot and can now more comfortably argue for its legality. Someone posted that video on facebook and I did get a bit worried.
 

LiteralGrill

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Other stages like Orbital Gate Assault, Big Battlefield and PS2 can be added as counterpicks too but at that point I'd consider as many as 5 stage bans. Personally I wouldn't mind that happening but realistically it's pretty unlikely imo. I honestly think classic FD should be banned though because the visuals are just a bit too much for a couple of people. Unlike minor hazards or transformations you can't really adapt to what's happening in the background.

:059:
Right now that's the Hypest list, except the only addition is PS2 unless this stage testing tournament turns out to be something big.

You know, all of us who are frequently active in this thread should consider putting out a "recommended stagelist" of sorts. It would do new folks some good (who send me PMs on reddit all the time) to have something to look at and consider, and have something we can show TOs who come in asking about what stages to use.
 

KingCowman

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It can't be used forever and it makes Jigglypuff vulnerable to spikes and probably also footstools.
Footstools aren't in melee. Spikes impractical to use under the stage. She can do 1 hop to get under, then stall for a long time, then when she is falling too far, 4 jumps back to stage. She can relatively easily repeat this endlessly going side to side.
 

EmblemCrossing

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I think I might throw my hand in at this, as I might be running a tournament soon.

Feedback appreciated.

Starters:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise


Counterpicks:

Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Delphino Plaza
Wii Fit Studio/ Coliseum (Not sure which one)
Wuhu Island
Duck Hunt


I kind of want to have Gamer as a counterpick, (pretty much for Ashley's Song) but that might be a bit too hectic. Also how many bans?
 

LiteralGrill

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I think I might throw my hand in at this, as I might be running a tournament soon.

Feedback appreciated.

I kind of want to have Gamer as a counterpick, (pretty much for Ashley's Song) but that might be a bit too hectic. Also how many bans?
I highly recommend not using Gamer. As much as I love the stage for fun it really isn't something that should be used in a tournament. I honestly wouldn't recommend using any walkoffs either, and will continue to not recommend so unless that stage testing tournament shows me they are okay to play on.

You are missing Castle Siege which is very odd as well, it supports competitive play perfectly fine and I'm surprised it's not there. I would also recommend Pokemon Stadium 2 though if you said no on that one I would understand more as it is kinda more controversial.

I personally don't like to run more then 1 ban as I find it unnecessary, but Hypest runs 2 and it works with little complaints.

@ Fenrir VII Fenrir VII If this happens I'll keep you in the loop. Though honestly, I figure after Wednesday tests we can sit down with the results and use the survey as a foundation to decide where we think things should god.
 

HavocThunder

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(Whew first post nerves! Maybe I should've made a thread for this?)

I am a HUGE fan of Wrecking Crew, and really think that it should at least be a Counterpick. I think it's a stage with a lot of depth because:
  • It rewards smart stage awareness to set up barrel drops and edgeguard with wall explosions.
  • Custom moves that go through bombs and barrels have a lot of value. Dragon Rush! <3
  • Bombs can be used to stop projectiles (Do they unstale moves when hitting them?)
  • Exploding walls give new ways to approach
I haven't seen anyone post any numbers or facts about how Wrecking Crew works, so I did the research myself:

General Facts:
  • Bombs have 14% health.
  • Bombs and anything exploding make objects adjacent to them explode (Other bombs, Stairs, Walls)
  • Dark brick walls can take 3 explosions, White walls can take 2 explosions, everything else 1.
  • Barrels will be destroyed if a floor falls on it.
  • A floor is only held up if 3 or more walls/ladders are holding it up.
  • Only 2 different floors are allowed to have bombs on them. Bombs will not respawn until an entire floor gets destroyed. Not fully sure how the game picks the floor yet
  • Stage has about 4-5 different starting layouts and loops between these layouts as the stage gets destroyed. (I could use some pictures for this)
Barrels
  • Always spawn at the same place in each floor pattern
  • Can be run through. Some custom moves like Dragon Rush go straight through, too.
  • Falling barrels are unblockable
  • Your percent definitely affects how quickly you can mash out, but not sure how much.
Kill Percents
  • Exploding walls do 10% and kill Mario from the bottom center floor at 207%
  • A bomb exploding on Mario (whether he falls on one or stands in front of it) does 10% and kills at 182-184%, depending on where he is in the bomb’s hitbox.
Up-Throws
  • Charizard’s Up-Throw kills Mario at 189% from the top floor and 158% from a barrel at the top. For reference, his D-Throw kills from the center bottom floor at around 173%.
  • Kirby’s Up-Throw kills Mario at 109% from the top floor and 83% off a barrel at the top.
  • MK’s Up-Throw kills Mario at 110% from the top floor and 88% off a barrel at the top.
If any of my numbers are off, please let me know. I wish I could attach some sort of pictures or video, but maybe this'll spark some new discussion about this stage.

If you kill someone off a barrel on the top floor, you deserve some applause. That takes a ton of knowledge about the stage, the right positioning, the right stage layout, AND you have to get a grab at the right percent! Your opponent can easily counter it by breaking the stage some more.

As you can see, there's not very many aspects of this stage that are unpredictable. There's a couple things I would argue are random, but these points are easily dealt with by playing the stage more and learning how it works:
  • The floor that's chosen for bomb placement when a floor gets destroyed is random? However, there's a delay before they respawn, you can see where bombs will spawn on each floor (always in the same place), and they don't explode if you stand in front of them.
  • The starting layout is random? However, there's only 4-5 possible starting layouts and the stage cycles between them all in each match.
I think the biggest criticism I've seen is that the stage promotes circle camping, but is it possible to just tell a stage has circle camping without considering its mechanics? If someone is running away, WC itself provides ways to swing the battle in your favor:
  • Blow it up until you get a favorable layout
  • Use exploding walls to approach
  • Use ladders to get around vertically
  • Be awesome and time a barrel drop on them
Yes, falling barrels are very scary, but I'll flip that around into something more productive. How can you use barrels to your advantage in matches? The easiest way to find out is to have more people play Wrecking Crew, but that won't happen if it's banned until proven innocent.
 

EmblemCrossing

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@ LiteralGrill LiteralGrill I actually had Castle Siege in my list, but apparently I didn't copy it over. I'm not sure how I feel about PS2 yet though, mainly because of the Electric transformation. I like the platforms in Wii Fit/ Colosseum, but I guess I should wait and see how the game develops. (Might test it a bit myself)

Gamer was just a desperate attempt at getting all those songs. That music.

- Gamer
- Wii Fit/ Colosseum

+ Castle Seige
 
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LiteralGrill

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I would be honored to take everything you found, add some pictures, and make a stage research thread about it to match the others if that's alright with you. That's some seriously good work!

However, the current issue I have it banned for really is the size, and how easy it is to camp on the stages. Is there anything to make it so players can't just run away a ton?

@ EmblemCrossing EmblemCrossing I totally understand. A good list especially with that addition. Cannot complain at all!
 
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guedes the brawler

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So what do you guys think of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMqS3lqxU8

I'm not saying this automatically makes DK 64 banned or anything. But it seems like a very difficult strategy to combat if you don't have a projectile that can somehow interrupt her stalling.

I really like this stage but I do have concerns for it's potential to stall.
honestly, i feel like jiggs would have the advantage on Kj even if the barrel wasn't a thing,s o this should've been banned by the greninja at some point. or not picked.
 

guedes the brawler

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I'm always sceptical of any stalling technique or "inescapable combo" performed on the AI. After all, we all know about the Lucina Battlefield Stall technique for Cruel Brawl which is easily shut down by any downsmash.
and considering, unlike the miis, have a shield, double jump, grab, special moves and can't figure out the pattern...
 

HavocThunder

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I would be honored to take everything you found, add some pictures, and make a stage research thread about it to match the others if that's alright with you. That's some seriously good work!

However, the current issue I have it banned for really is the size, and how easy it is to camp on the stages. Is there anything to make it so players can't just run away a ton?

@ EmblemCrossing EmblemCrossing I totally understand. A good list especially with that addition. Cannot complain at all!
Absolutely! No problem with that at all! :b:

Unfortunately, I know WC's problem is its size. I don't see any issues with running away as a tactic (I main big characters and deal with this on every stage...), but at least WC provides some interesting tools for the slower characters:
  • The opponent will take 10% dmg for every explosion they run into, and eventually they'll die at around 180% near the middle/top.
  • Ladders can move you vertically pretty quickly
  • Blow up ladders that opponents are using
  • Use exploding walls to cut off their escape and approach
  • Take advantage of the barrels
  • Bombs generally don't spawn near the top
  • If the person fleeing is standing on the stage when it falls, he/she falls with it, which will happen eventually
WC greatly favors the person who's blowing it up at the bottom since they have huge control over the entire stage. They need to watch out for falling barrels, but the person running away has to deal with so much more than that.

TL;DR: Keep blowing everything up to keep the advantage on this stage
 
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LiteralGrill

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@ HavocThunder HavocThunder I will sit down to try and make that thread, thank you for your permission!

I will sit down and personally do a little more testing on the stage, perhaps it will see a last minute addition to tomorrow's testing, but I wouldn't get too excited. Though admittedly I really still am not happy with Wooly World but it needs testing.
 

Cactusblah

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Alright, we need to start discussing the serious problem of 90% Smashville, 5% Battlefield, and 5% Town and City.
This game has 47 omega stages. I want to see the other stages.

The best solution? Start on FD, loser picks next omega stage. DONE. THE END. STAGE PROBLEM SOLVED. NO MORE 90% SMASHVILLE.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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Alright, we need to start discussing the serious problem of 90% Smashville, 5% Battlefield, and 5% Town and City.
This game has 47 omega stages. I want to see the other stages.

The best solution? Start on FD, loser picks next omega stage. DONE. THE END. STAGE PROBLEM SOLVED. NO MORE 90% SMASHVILLE.
Sorry man, the platform matters, and people really like that stage, and a unfamiliar with everything else. I'm sure more stages like Duck Hunt will become a more used stage over time or even the omegas.

At least I hope. I'm tired of seeing Smashville too.
 
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LiteralGrill

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Advocating no more starter/cp distictions might sincerely help with this as well as people would actually know how to use other stages and thus might pick them.
 

Pazx

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@ cool guys who have discussed stage legality at great length in this thread

The tourney I'm attending this weekend is using this stagelist (with 2 bans)

Stagelist:

Starter

-Battlefield
-Duck Hunt
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville
-Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple (specifically)

Counterpick

-Castle Siege
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Kongo Jungle 64
-Pilot Wings
-Skyloft
-Town and City
Wuhu is absent, Pilotwings is present. I've discussed how easy it is to camp on PW with the TO but he said he'd rather wait and see if it turns out to be an issue (despite being hesitant about Ness's OHKO on Wuhu). So my question is, what is the absolute best way to camp on PW? I mostly use Ness who is great on the stage with PKT stuff, but I'm also keen to try out any other characters or strategies that will abuse the stage mechanic and either give me an advantage or get the stage banned.

My Wii U will be present at the tourney so if I end up playing on it on PW I'll upload vids to show just how campy I can get (for those of you promoting PW's legality).
 
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Well I think most characters can make it to the engine with just a double jump from the ledge. Be careful about the stage titling. You can also do a circle camp on the yellow plane section. If they approach you jump back on stage and go to the opposite side of the engine the opponent is on (switch sides if they do too). If they go back on stage, go back to the engine. For the red plane just always try and be under one of the platforms and your opponent, if it goes to neutral run away.

As for characters.. Ironically Little Mac might be a good choice because of his running speed and down smash (on the engine). Little Mac can make it with a DJ > up B btw. Just use any character that's fast and can poke under the red plane platforms.
 
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