Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Fenrir VII]

The "if it ain't broke, I'll break it" argument....

I'm a fan.

 

[KingCowman]

Every character can abuse the plane tilt going up to the volcano to get on the right engine with only double jump except Ganon. I tested this thoroughly. The reason its hard to circle camp though is that when someone has the ability to approach you with their double jump and not their upB, the plane is not tilted in the right direction for you to be able to run to the other engine.

Generally people will engage when your engine is tilted up, making it very hard to get to the other engine. Finally its rather hard to get people to let you camp, you have to be in such a position that you can lose them for a good couple of seconds to set up for the camp unless you are a multi/high jump character.

 

[Pazx]

Every character can abuse the plane tilt going up to the volcano to get on the right engine with only double jump except Ganon. I tested this thoroughly. The reason its hard to circle camp though is that when someone has the ability to approach you with their double jump and not their upB, the plane is not tilted in the right direction for you to be able to run to the other engine.

Generally people will engage when your engine is tilted up, making it very hard to get to the other engine. Finally its rather hard to get people to let you camp, you have to be in such a position that you can lose them for a good couple of seconds to set up for the camp unless you are a multi/high jump character.

The plane tilts often enough to get onto the other engine if you're attempting to circle camp, however I'm not sure circle camping is the best way to play on the yellow plane (as knocking people away who are trying to get to the engine you're on puts them in an awful position)

 

[Jaxas]

Alright, we need to start discussing the serious problem of 90% Smashville, 5% Battlefield, and 5% Town and City.
This game has 47 omega stages. I want to see the other stages.

The best solution? Start on FD, loser picks next omega stage. DONE. THE END. STAGE PROBLEM SOLVED. NO MORE 90% SMASHVILLE.

So you want to transfer from 90% Smashville to 100% Final Destination to add variety?
I'm... not really seeing the logic here.

 

[Cactusblah]

So you want to transfer from 90% Smashville to 100% Final Destination to add variety?
I'm... not really seeing the logic here.

Why do I have to explain that I'm only interested in the stage backgrounds and music, not whether it has platforms on it?

I had a headache watching VGBC's stream today with nothing but Smashville and whistling music.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why do I have to explain that I'm only interested in the stage backgrounds and music, not whether it has platforms on it?

Because this is insane. Competitors care about what stage they are actually playing on, not what it looks like.

This is like banning all characters but Luigi because you want to see all the Luigi skin colors.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The plane tilts often enough to get onto the other engine if you're attempting to circle camp, however I'm not sure circle camping is the best way to play on the yellow plane (as knocking people away who are trying to get to the engine you're on puts them in an awful position)

Well camping is only for keeping a lead. Even though you have the advantage it's possible to lose it, so if you have a (strong) lead there's no reason not to run.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Why do I have to explain that I'm only interested in the stage backgrounds and music, not whether it has platforms on it?

I had a headache watching VGBC's stream today with nothing but Smashville and whistling music.

The problem with FD and Omega only is that by limiting stage selections you artificially increase the usability of ground based characters and projectile campers. It causes Metagame stagnation. Ice Climbers were only really good in Brawl because the fear of Meta Knight got all their bad stages banned, while many other characters might have really wanted those stages because they had better matchups there

Limiting stage choice for no real reason is anti-competitive behavoir at its finest. You want music and pictures, buy an ipod

 

[Piford]

Advocating no more starter/cp distictions might sincerely help with this as well as people would actually know how to use other stages and thus might pick them.

Even if we can't get rid of the starter/cp distiction because of time constraints making more three/five starters (a lot of places have moving lylat, town and city, and duck hunt to CP) and making a starter list with more variety (every single "dynamic" stage is a counterpick). There should be at least one stage with transformations as a starting stage (imo there should be more) and that would encourage people to learn more stages. A lot of people are generally lazy and don't want to pick stages they could loos on because lack of knowledge, but they all know how to play on Smashville, Battlefield, and Final Destination (for T&C they likely bothered to learn it because its so simple).

 

[Flawed]

Pilot Wings is Pikachu's best stage, and a legit Spacie counterpick.

I would rather this be legal, and opponents strike it first.

I don't see the difference in it and Halberd MK sharking

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Sharking was not overcentralizing, or at least only as much as MK was. The camping is, because any attempt to counter it when they're settled puts you in disadvantage, and the camping spot is accessable to most characters. The only other option is to wait out the transformation, which gives camping the advantage

 

[EmblemCrossing]

Starters:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Delphino Plaza
Castle Seige
Wuhu Island
Duck Hunt

I'm debating adding in a walled Omega as a neutral, possibly Onett. Should it be it's own Neutral, or just an FD branch?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Even if the camping were not inherently beneficial to one character or another... the impact of stalling a match for that long is enough justification for banning a stage.

The rationale is not the same for sharking. Sharking was, essentially, MK being able to attack you from behind a wall, where you couldn't counter-attack. This was a balance issue moreso than a stalling issue (and the stalling impact from sharking has been completely removed by the new ledge mechanics.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Starters:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Delphino Plaza
Castle Seige
Wuhu Island
Duck Hunt

I'm debating adding in a walled Omega as a neutral, possibly Onett. Should it be it's own Neutral, or just an FD branch?

FD branch definitly. Walls are not so large a change as to require a second spot. You already have a nice 5 stage list for striking, so I see no reason for another FD

 

[Zzuxon]

Ima makin a stage list.
Starter:
Final Destination (Floating)
Final Destination (Walled)
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

CP:
Big Battlefield
Duck Hunt
Colisseum
Mario Circuit 8
Windy Hill
Skyloft
Wii Fit Studio
Wuhu Island
Woolly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Castle Siege
Halberd
Norfair
Delfino Plaza.

Thoughts? I made this fairly conservative by my standards.

 

[smashmachine]

Ima makin a stage list.
Starter:
Final Destination (Floating)
Final Destination (Walled)
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

CP:
Big Battlefield
Duck Hunt
Colisseum
Mario Circuit 8
Windy Hill
Skyloft
Wii Fit Studio
Wuhu Island
Woolly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Castle Siege
Halberd
Norfair
Delfino Plaza.

Thoughts? I made this fairly conservative by my standards.

what

also wtf 2 FDs

 

[Zzuxon]

what

also wtf 2 FDs

Yes, some omega forms have walls that extend to the bottom blastzone, others don't.
This is a meaningful difference.
What do you mean what?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Ima makin a stage list.
Starter:
Final Destination (Floating)
Final Destination (Walled)
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

CP:
Big Battlefield
Duck Hunt
Colisseum
Mario Circuit 8
Windy Hill
Skyloft
Wii Fit Studio
Wuhu Island
Woolly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Castle Siege
Halberd
Norfair
Delfino Plaza.

Thoughts? I made this fairly conservative by my standards.

Gotta ask, what's liberal by your standards?

I agree with most of your list, except for the walled FD being a single slot. It's not as large a change as everyone says it is. A few recovery changes do not make up for a identical flat layout. It'd be like having two Lylats, or BFs, just making striking a massive hassle

 

[Piford]

Yes, some omega forms have walls that extend to the bottom blastzone, others don't.
This is a meaningful difference.
What do you mean what?

It's more meaningful to give the characters that like final destination a second final destination than the slight differences the walls bring. If you like final destination with walls, you probably like final destination floating.

 

[Zzuxon]

Gotta ask, what's liberal by your standards?

I agree with most of your list, except for the walled FD being a single slot. It's not as large a change as everyone says it is. A few recovery changes do not make up for a identical flat layout. It'd be like having two Lylats, or BFs, just making striking a massive hassle

Liberal would've included Mario Galaxy, Pilotwings, MKU, Garden of Hope and Luigi's Mansion.

It's more meaningful to give the characters that like final destination a second final destination than the slight differences the walls bring. If you like final destination with walls, you probably like final destination floating.

I see what you two mean here, and I agree. Hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Terotrous]

Why do I have to explain that I'm only interested in the stage backgrounds and music, not whether it has platforms on it?

I had a headache watching VGBC's stream today with nothing but Smashville and whistling music.

The real problem is that all of the Omega Stages are FD, which is a huge waste. They should have made it so that Omega Mode works like this:

- If a stage has significant hazards but is otherwise mostly legal, it turns them off. Ie, on Wily Castle, the Yellow Devil would be gone.
- If a stage is inherently noncompetitive (ie, 75m), it alters it to have a more neutral layout. For example, 75m could be just the top platform with no hazards, being a long flat stage with one platform in the middle.
- If a stage is already competitively fine (ie, Smashville), it either doesn't change or becomes FD or Battlefield.

There, bazillions of legal stages and great stage variety. Too bad the game doesn't work like this. Maybe for Smash 5?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I mostly use Ness who is great on the stage with PKT stuff, but I'm also keen to try out any other characters or strategies that will abuse the stage mechanic and either give me an advantage or get the stage banned.

My Wii U will be present at the tourney so if I end up playing on it on PW I'll upload vids to show just how campy I can get (for those of you promoting PW's legality).

Jigglypuff. Float under the stage and abuse going from one side to the other. OR You can tell me how to talk to the guy and as a fellow TO I can tell him how I first hand witnessed the issues in my events.

@ EmblemCrossing I'm always advocating the FD/Omega should be the same stage. Just because there is a wall does not change the fact the majority of the fighting is done on a large flat stage. I'd love to see Pokemon Stadium 2 in there but I can see why people don't use it everywhere.

@ Zzuxon As stated above done spilt up the FDs. I like having lots of stages legal too, but you have loads of stuff I'm testing just because it's probably not too safe to legalize without testing too. I'd fix it to this for now to be safe:

Spoiler

Starter:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

CP:
Big Battlefield
Duck Hunt
Colisseum
Mario Circuit 8
Windy Hill
Skyloft
Wii Fit Studio
Wuhu Island
Woolly World
Kongo Jungle 64
Castle Siege
Halberd
Norfair
Delfino Plaza.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I gotta say, why isn't KJ64 a starter? Sure in Smash 64, the edges were weird, but now with ledge snapping and moving as well and stagnate platforms as well as having space, the stage should be a starter.

 

[Terotrous]

I gotta say, why isn't KJ64 a starter? Sure in Smash 64, the edges were weird, but now with ledge snapping and moving as well and stagnate platforms as well as having space, the stage should be a starter.

Well, it does give a pretty substantial recovery boost to some characters, as you have many more recovery options than on most stages. You can mix up onstage landings with the top platform, you can grab ledge, or you can go for the barrel. Characters with controllable recoveries are almost impossible to edgeguard here, and those whose recoveries are predictable at least get a few more options.

Personally I feel that this stage has more of an effect on character viability than, say, Battlefield, which is why I would choose CP for this stage.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well, it does give a pretty substantial recovery boost to some characters, as you have many more recovery options than on most stages. You can mix up onstage landings with the top platform, you can grab ledge, or you can go for the barrel. Characters with controllable recoveries are almost impossible to edgeguard here, and those whose recoveries are predictable at least get a few more options.

Personally I feel that this stage has more of an effect on character viability than, say, Battlefield, which is why I would choose CP for this stage.

So the problem is the fact that recoveries are good the stage? In this game, edgeguarding is even less emphasized though it's ironically the most important because everyone can live forever now, bar . Saying that recoveries are too good on this stage as a reason for changing it to a CP is a bit ludicrous. Since everyone benefits, then there is no reason to leave it as a CP. Maybe my affinity for the DK series is apparent, but this time, there is not a glaring problem in this stage to relegate it to CP. We're to stuck in the Brawl and Melee ruleset rut. All I want to is expand it

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I have a couple ideas for how to deal with walled FDs.
In the first match when you're dealing with neutrals, if the two players strike to FD, press the omega button and select random. The only stages toggled on for Random-Omega form would be two stages, one with walls and one without, that would be laughed out of the room in their normal forms. I'm talking about Temple, Kalos, GCO, Palutena's Temple, Port Town, Melee Yoshi's Island, etc. So if FD is struck to, it's 50-50 between walled and not, and you get to play with a background and music that would be otherwise unseen in a tournament setting.
When it's time to play in the counterpick style, if the winner strikes FD, that's all forms of it, walled or not. If the loser ends up counterpicking FD, it's their call whether to go to FD itself or to a walled Omega.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

As a Pika player, I would love playing Kongo Jungle. I can go high for the platforms, ledge grab, go for the stage directly, and hit the barrel as a last resort. Pikachu is hard enough to edge guard on stages like Battlefield and Smashville, and while he may be one of the best for it, he isn't the only one who benefits. Basically, while it benefits everyone, it artificially pushes matches towards character with fast controllable recoveries, Shiek, Greninja, ZSS, etc.

Of course, I would love Kongo Jungle, but I understand where the CP calls come from

 

[EmblemCrossing]

@ LiteralGrill @ Omegaphoenix Would you suggest having FD only? Or if FD is chosen, then player who picks get to choose an omega variation?

My group keeps debating whether or not we should use omegas, specifically one with a wall. (Because Pac-Man, they say. That's not a reason.)

I'd go either way, because I can see why walls would be helpful, but then I think they should just pick a different stage. (Thanks for the help, by the way.)

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I'd definitely have first game FD being stuck on regular FD, if only because it is the standard, but have a counterpick to FD allow any Omega short that would be allowed in your tourney. Why? It's nice to have just a single standard when striking for 'neutral,' but allowing any legal Omega on counterpick rewards stage knowledge. Maybe pick one with walls if your character likes that, or perhaps a grassy Omega to reduce traction.

 

[Terotrous]

Saying that recoveries are too good on this stage as a reason for changing it to a CP is a bit ludicrous. Since everyone benefits, then there is no reason to leave it as a CP.

There are some people whose recovery is super strong even on stages like BF and FD, so they benefit less than others whose recoveries are a bit sub par on other stages.

In general, the way I see it is that if a stage has the potential to significantly affect a matchup, it is CP. Of course, you can immediately say "what about FD?", but we've already had the discussion over whether or not FD is a CP stage or not earlier in the thread (personally, I think it could be, but people would riot if we designated it that way).

 

[Fenrir VII]

So like you probably know, I support KJ64 as a starter, and I'll state why.

the problem statement :
Of the 5 starters that everybody uses, 3 of them favor the same basic characters.

So everybody thinks FD is polarizing, right? It's still hard to argue against it as a starter, imo, but there's a fair point to that.
Enter Smashville, a similar stage (flat & can't camp under platforms) that is far more fair for 2 reasons. (A) it's quite a bit smaller and (B) the platform allows you to avoid projectiles, at the risk of getting safely pressured from below. Imo smashville is the fairest stage in the entire series. In many matchups in Brawl and PM, however, it was preferable to strike both it and FD due to still favoring similar characters

Ok so enter T&C, a significantly larger smashville with non-constant platforms. This stage removes the 2 main improvements of smashville over FD, and leaves you with a slightly smaller FD that has platforms MOST of the time. Now this stage is not unfair, and I have no case of saying it is... There IS a case that FD, Smashville, and T&C all favor similar characters... So during striking, somebody who plays one of them is GUARANTEED one of those 3 stages.

To me, this is a problem.


Enter KJ64, a stage that favors different characters and matchups than any of the other starters, but not enough to be significantly one-sided as far as we know now (some slower chars may want to strike it against faster chars. That's what striking is for.)

"but it's too big! "
Honestly I think this is being overstated... It's significantly smaller than Melee, and the size works well with this game's physics. Also I find it hard to argue that it's bigger than T&C in width or height (particularly for the 3 platform arrangement)

"but the barrel and pass through floor! "
Sharking has been significantly nerfed so to me, the pass thru floor is not unfair... Just a different stage mechanic.

As for the barrel... It's kind of like smashville's platform. The barrel can help or hurt you based on its positioning during the match, but it never will damage or kill you without a player mistake. It gives another recovery option, but it leaves you vulnerable, so it's a risk.

So basically, I find KJ64 to be an incredibly fair stage. Given the want to remove the 3 similar starters, KJ64 gives the best "alternate" layout for neutral, imo.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Honestly, I'd be okay with sticking Kongo Jungle as a starter, but we should then make another starter stage to go with a seven stage strike list for starters, to encourage stage variety. I'm partial to Skyloft personally, I've found it fun and I've heard good things about.

Since BF, FD, T&C, Smashville, and Lylat are pretty common starters, I think those two could really shake up the neutrals a bit and make them more fair.

 

[Terotrous]

Ok so enter T&C, a significantly larger smashville with non-constant platforms. This stage removes the 2 main improvements of smashville over FD, and leaves you with a slightly smaller FD that has platforms MOST of the time. Now this stage is not unfair, and I have no case of saying it is... There IS a case that FD, Smashville, and T&C all favor similar characters... So during striking, somebody who plays one of them is GUARANTEED one of those 3 stages.

To me, this is a problem.

A good argument. I booted T&C to counterpick when I made my list for generally similar reasons, having so many similar stages can be a bit of a problem. Of course, you could argue that it is instead FD that should get the boot but we won't get into that now.


If I was going to pick a 5 stage starter list, it would definitely be this:

Smashville
FD
Battlefield
Skyloft
Wuhu Island


I think that's super fair to pretty much all characters. Does anyone see any serious issue with that set?

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ Terotrous , In functionality, I have absolutely no problem with that list (I personally might go with Delfino over Wuhu just so the stage can't kill anybody ever, but I'm not sure on that one).

Problem will be the players just blindly hating it with the whole "Why is the stage doing their work for them" argument. There are people who are just outright calling for a ban on 2 of your starters (which I should state I vehemently disagree with), so I imagine there would be significant pushback on it. this is my primary reason for pushing KJ64 above Skyloft honestly... I think it's hard to argue that Skyloft is unfair or too random for tournament, but the more "neutral" layout of KJ64 sits better for most people.

All that said, I'd personally love to enter that tournament.

 

[Terotrous]

@ Terotrous , In functionality, I have absolutely no problem with that list (I personally might go with Delfino over Wuhu just so the stage can't kill anybody ever, but I'm not sure on that one).

I debated between these two (my original list had 7 starters and had both, + Halberd as the other stage). You can make a solid case for either, though my gut says Wuhu is a touch more fair overall. Both are a better choice than Halberd, and I think you can argue for KJ64 over Halberd as well.

There are people who are just outright calling for a ban on 2 of your starters (which I should state I vehemently disagree with), so I imagine there would be significant pushback on it.

Honestly, I haven't seen it, it seems to be a general agreement that Skyloft is one of the best stages and that Wuhu and Delfino are both pretty fair, though admittedly I try to stay away from Reddit and Eventhubs so it's possible some scrubby players over there might be complaining about them.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Honestly, I haven't seen it, it seems to be a general agreement that Skyloft is one of the best stages and that Wuhu and Delfino are both pretty fair, though admittedly I try to stay away from Reddit and Eventhubs so it's possible some scrubby players over there might be complaining about them.

Well in all fairness, Wuhu has been blasted by the upload of that 1 glitch video, which I find ridiculous. Most people call for a ban without understanding that the glitch will simply never happen in tournament without 1 player knowing about it and 1 player having no idea.


Skyloft is lumped into the whole "smash should have 5 neutral stages only" argument that a lot of...I'll say 'almost top players' adhere to. The desire to limit the game to a handful of stages because that's how Brawl/Melee ended up, and that's the "simple" answer. It also is involved with the "the stage is forcing me/my opponent into bad situations, doing the work for the players" argument.

Note that these are not my opinions... I will not entertain a ban of either stage unless some other significant flaw comes out.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ EmblemCrossing we personally use if FD is chosen an Omega can be chosen, and if FD is banned all Omegas are banned. It works rather well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think we need to re-assess the way we are handling Omegas...

The shear number of variants that CAN affect the match outcome/gameplay (walled, unwalled, or thin stages; un-walljumpable walls; cutouts; grass traction; etc) are fairly staggering.

I would say one of the following is the "correct" way to handle them.
1. Decide on 1 legal omega stage to use as FD (we don't actually have to use FD this time if the effects are a bit much)
2. Separate the stages into their subsets... where all stages in that subset (walled, walljumpable, etc) are the same (or the same type). Then strike the subsets if somebody CPs FD and let the winner choose their preference
3. Allow a handful of legal Omegas and let the CPer choose between them.

2 is probably the most complicated but also allows the most stage variety. 1 is the simplist with no variety. 3 is a decent compromise.

 

[ccthirteen]

My apologies if this has already been asked within this thread. Considering the argument against platforms in Smash 4 and the lack of any character being at an advantageous position from being on them, I feel this is a legitimate question:

Is there a chance that, as the metagame develops for competitive smash 4, will tournaments be reduced to only FD versions of every stage?

I've spoken at length with a fellow smasher about this and his point was that after extensive testing, no character seems to have any advantageous position or approach options from being on a platform. At the highest level of play (at least currently) the testing showed the advantage was always to the individual not on the platform, but below them on the solid ground.

Now with edge hogging and some other competitive aspects removed from the game, I'm not one to shy away from part of the meta being to combo your opponent onto the platform and use their disadvantageous position in my favor, but there's a fair point to the idea of limiting to FD only and also to keeping some non-FD stages in as well.

What do you think?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I'd say just go with number 3. As long as the legal Omegas had a collection of the various traits, grass, lips, walls, etc. I think it'd reward stage knowledge with a little boost for the counterpicker.

My apologies if this has already been asked within this thread. Considering the argument against platforms in Smash 4 and the lack of any character being at an advantageous position from being on them, I feel this is a legitimate question:

Is there a chance that, as the metagame develops for competitive smash 4, will tournaments be reduced to only FD versions of every stage?

I've spoken at length with a fellow smasher about this and his point was that after extensive testing, no character seems to have any advantageous position or approach options from being on a platform. At the highest level of play (at least currently) the testing showed the advantage was always to the individual not on the platform, but below them on the solid ground.

Now with edge hogging and some other competitive aspects removed from the game, I'm not one to shy away from part of the meta being to combo your opponent onto the platform and use their disadvantageous position in my favor, but there's a fair point to the idea of limiting to FD only and also to keeping some non-FD stages in as well.

What do you think?

Only if we let it. Stages are an integral part of the smash metagame, and they way they affect gameplay makes competitive Smash a wonder to behold. If we cut out platformed stages, it'd be like cutting out assists in Marvel Vs Capcom, or Mix ups in Street Fighter. Yes, still the same game in a technical sense, and the meta may still develop in interesting ways, but its cutting out something which could really help the meta evolve and increase the Wow! factor when watching a match.

I think as long as people fight for their stages, then FD won't be the dominant stage on the scene.