Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[digiholic]

I said this in a different thread, but I feel like with Smash 4's gameplay style being less offensive than Melee, banning stages like Melee isn't going to get us anywhere. If the interesting play doesn't come from huge combos and tech chases from a single opening, maybe the interesting play could come from zone control on a hazardous stage? Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be stage bans, but basically, if a stage isn't completely obnoxious, I think it should be allowed. More than half of the stages should be allowed.

We're probably never going to get the hype moments like a sacred combo or a huge fox waveshine string or anything, but maybe we can have some pretty cool moments like wall comboing on Mario Circuit or tossing an opponent into a fire pillar on Norfair for the KO.

If we try to play Smash 4 like Melee, we're just going to kill it. This is the chance to try to do something actually new for once.

 

[DavemanCozy]

About Custom stages:

Is there a possibility that the community here could have, say, a stage design contest, and then have certain stages voted by the community be legal? The custom stage builder is a much more powerful tool this time around, I'd like to see what some of the creative smashers could come up with, in terms of making legal stages.

 

[Terotrous]

About Custom stages:

Is there a possibility that the community here could have, say, a stage design contest, and then have certain stages voted by the community be legal? The custom stage builder is a much more powerful tool this time around, I'd like to see what some of the creative smashers could come up with, in terms of making legal stages.

Honestly while the stage builder is kind of cool, I kinda doubt this would ever actually happen, simply because it's too hard to enforce. At best some weeklies might allow a few custom levels the TO created but that's about it.


Personally, I've been using the Stage Builder to recreate missing stages. Last night I remade Corneria and Tomodachi Life. I also created a Pokemon Stadium 2 that has no hazards (ala PM) and got rid of the regular PS2.

Might also attempt to remake Metal Cavern.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I feel like it probably wouldn't be as hard to enforce as custom equipment in the long run if a collection of TOs came together to vote on something. Of course, that also depends on how easy it would actually be to share these stages.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I said this in a different thread, but I feel like with Smash 4's gameplay style being less offensive than Melee, banning stages like Melee isn't going to get us anywhere. If the interesting play doesn't come from huge combos and tech chases from a single opening, maybe the interesting play could come from zone control on a hazardous stage? Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be stage bans, but basically, if a stage isn't completely obnoxious, I think it should be allowed. More than half of the stages should be allowed.

We're probably never going to get the hype moments like a sacred combo or a huge fox waveshine string or anything, but maybe we can have some pretty cool moments like wall comboing on Mario Circuit or tossing an opponent into a fire pillar on Norfair for the KO.

If we try to play Smash 4 like Melee, we're just going to kill it. This is the chance to try to do something actually new for once.

This, just this, oh god, I cannot like this enough. The sheer amount of stages and matchups should be the defining feature of the game.

As to custom stages, I think they could be interesting. Hard to enforce, but I think they could be worth it

 

[Piford]

Nah, the ducks are fine. They're like the balloon on Smashville. Sure, there's technically no reward for killing them, but everyone knows the true winner of the match is not the one who survives the longest but the one who kills the most ducks.



Honestly, reading this all I see is "Johns johns johns johns johns johns".


We've already addressed a lot of these points, like how walkoff camping doesn't really work well on these stages.

If they want to use Delfino instead of Wuhu because they're worried about some stops having pits might be an issue then fine, though I'm very wary of the "it might lead to camping" argument, particularly when just blindly applied to pretty much every situation like that.

"This stage is flat, that promotes camping".
"This stage has too many platforms, that also promotes camping".
"This stage has a hazard, which of course promotes camping".


Why don't we try this stage and see if the camping strategy is actually effective?

I do think the point GIMR made about the fountain was okay, but the rest were just johns. And if you must camp out the fountain, thats still 30 seconds less of camping than the fire and rock in PS1 could potentially bring.

 

[wildvine47]

So, the few matches of the testing tournament that did get played, were they recorded/streamed? Or was that only going to be for later rounds.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, the few matches of the testing tournament that did get played, were they recorded/streamed? Or was that only going to be for later rounds.

Some of it was somewhat shown, sadly not much worth checking out. But it will be rescheduled for the 20th, just arranging the new prizes.

However, loads of people already sent massive complaints on Wooly World and one match on stream showed it had a serious issues. I may consider Big Battlefield over it as it at least has less problems while being still... Big.

 

[wildvine47]

Some of it was somewhat shown, sadly not much worth checking out. But it will be rescheduled for the 20th, just arranging the new prizes.

However, loads of people already sent massive complaints on Wooly World and one match on stream showed it had a serious issues. I may consider Big Battlefield over it as it at least has less problems while being still... Big.

Oof, really? Was it @ Piford 's match, because he didn't seem to have any problems with it from his rundown on the prior page.

I dunno if one match is enough to determine it's worthiness IMO, but it's your tournament so it's up to you.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ wildvine47 it was more then him. Some other folks immediately complaints, and we had a match with duck hunt dog were there was 30% damage done with 2 minutes left.

 

[wildvine47]

@ wildvine47 it was more then him. Some other folks immediately complaints, and we had a match with duck hunt dog were there was 30% damage done with 2 minutes left.

Yikes that Duck Hunt example does sound rough. Like I said, your choice whether or not to keep it, but I personally say maybe give it a proper go at the full tourney, and if it continues to be a problem, then sub in Big Battlefield in the later rounds.

 

[Pazx]

Big Battlefield should be in there regardless of Woolly World's inclusion in my opinion. I assume that for a stage testing tournament you'd want to test all potentially viable stages.

 

[chipndip]

Big Battlefield should be in there regardless of Woolly World's inclusion in my opinion. I assume that for a stage testing tournament you'd want to test all potentially viable stages.

If you live in the central time zone...go to bed.

Anywho, yea...no. Some stages like Big Battlefield should probably be left OUT. This game is about fighting your opponent, and the stage shouldn't be intrusive about that in competitive play. The point is for me and my opponent to fight, not me, my opponent, and the stage he chose. You don't want to alienate people because you're allowing stages that take away from the feeling of legitimacy in their match.

I personally dislike Big BF because it's obnoxiously big for a 1v1 match. It's specifically designed for 5-8 players, so why try to force it into a 1v1 environment?

 

[Piford]

@ wildvine47 it was more then him. Some other folks immediately complaints, and we had a match with duck hunt dog were there was 30% damage done with 2 minutes left.

Ouch. That's bad if both players were good, but if the Duck Hunt was good and the opponent wasn't, then it might just be because he was bad. I know in my match, there might not have been issue because R.O.B. and Jigglypuff both enjoy the air, so what character was going against Duck Hunt?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Ouch. That's bad if both players were good, but if the Duck Hunt was good and the opponent wasn't, then it might just be because he was bad. I know in my match, there might not have been issue because R.O.B. and Jigglypuff both enjoy the air, so what character was going against Duck Hunt?

Little Mac. The Mac Player had also dished a few blows as well, but I do think that is telling about the stage being a tough counterpick for ground characters.

Also...

THE TOURNAMENT HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED AND HAS OVER $50 WORTH OF PRIZES!​

If that's not enough to apologize, get people to join, and get some folks to play to win I dunno what will! I mean, a chance at an Amiibo guys!

Two major additions though. I put in Big Battlefield and Coliseum. All these stages really do need testing, so I'll bite the bullet and do this thing right. We can always take out any stages with real issues for the top cut.

 

[Piford]

Little Mac. The Mac Player had also dished a few blows as well, but I do think that is telling about the stage being a tough counterpick for ground characters.

Also...

THE TOURNAMENT HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED AND HAS OVER $50 WORTH OF PRIZES!​

If that's not enough to apologize, get people to join, and get some folks to play to win I dunno what will! I mean, a chance at an Amiibo guys!

Two major additions though. I put in Big Battlefield and Coliseum. All these stages really do need testing, so I'll bite the bullet and do this thing right. We can always take out any stages with real issues for the top cut.

Yeah if it's Little Mac I don't really know how to approach that. I think we should take that into account, but it shouldn't be hard reason to ban the stage. Little Mac players will just have to always ban Woolly World if it does become legal. On a brighter side, if Walk-offs work out, Little Mac has slightly more good stages for him.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Some quick things about Woolly World:
Stage has no hazards. Appropriate warning is given about the transformation. Platforms in the air tilt depending on the fighters above them.
The rocket in the middle is super problematic, it becomes a tech-able ceiling during the ground stages and screws over recoveries in the 2nd part (particularly Ness's thunder). Blast lines are also super close to the sides of the stage in the 2nd part.
Walk offs in the 1st and 3rd parts. Whether they are big problems remains to be seen, but they are there for 2/3rds of the stage.

I dunno. It's not terrible, IMO, I have a feeling it would be better for doubles. There are better stages though.

 

[Nintendrone]

Some quick things about Woolly World:
Stage has no hazards. Appropriate warning is given about the transformation. Platforms in the air tilt depending on the fighters above them.
The rocket in the middle is super problematic, it becomes a tech-able ceiling during the ground stages and screws over recoveries in the 2nd part (particularly Ness's thunder). Blast lines are also super close to the sides of the stage in the 2nd part.
Walk offs in the 1st and 3rd parts. Whether they are big problems remains to be seen, but they are there for 2/3rds of the stage.

I dunno. It's not terrible, IMO, I have a feeling it would be better for doubles. There are better stages though.

I'd like to make a correction to the bolded stuff. Because the red walkoff is only an aesthetic change from the green one, it can qualify as the same thing. This means, from a gameplay perspective, Woolly World merely alternates between 2 forms that are active for equal amounts of time, making it walkoff 1/2 of time.

Also, I agree that doubles would probably make the stage less of an issue. I just want it legal because I don't think it's broken.

 

[KingCowman]

If you live in the central time zone...go to bed.

I think he lives in Australia, so his 1am would be 9amEST or 8amCentral

 

[LiteralGrill]

I will say this. I am insanely tempted to for the first time ever enter my own tournament. I have been having some fun times using Pikachu to make Big Battlefield, Colliseum, Woolly World, and a bit on Wii Fit Studio. Let me say this, heavily mobile character, ESPECIALLY with a projectile are going to dominate these stages, especially Big Battlefield and Woolly World. They should make for some boring matches.

 

[Piford]

I will say this. I am insanely tempted to for the first time ever enter my own tournament. I have been having some fun times using Pikachu to make Big Battlefield, Colliseum, Woolly World, and a bit on Wii Fit Studio. Let me say this, heavily mobile character, ESPECIALLY with a projectile are going to dominate these stages, especially Big Battlefield and Woolly World. They should make for some boring matches.

Go for it as long as it's not overwhelming participating and TOing. Also I think you forgot a word, but its probably something along the lines of broken. Also I don't think you can have fun making boring matches, but that could just be me.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Go for it as long as it's not overwhelming participating and TOing. Also I think you forgot a word, but its probably something along the lines of broken. Also I don't think you can have fun making boring matches, but that could just be me.

I'm a sick individual. I would enjoy making terrible matches if it gave me good data that a stage should be banned.

However, I do have a vow to never enter my own events. I want to focus on the players and making sure their experience is the best. I don't want that distraction. I can always ask for friendlies on the stages later

 

[Dazzap]

(Mods, I will remove this if needs to go to a different section).

Just my thoughts on legal stages!


Legal:
Battlefield (Simple, easy layout)
Final destination (Flat)
Town and City (Platforms move, but not disruptive)
Smashville (Singular floating platform makes it unique)
Lyat cruise (Simple, The platform rotating isn't bad)

Counterpicks:
Delfino Plaza (Transforming, no hazards)
Hallberd (I'm afraid i can't do that Dave. Sorry, that joke gets old. This stage is nice, stage hazards, while here, are easily avoidable.)

Debatable:
TEAMS ONLY (It would be to campy 1v1s) Big Battlefield (Is it too big? I have literally NO idea when it comes to Big battlefield.
All Ω Stages. (I'm going to be honest here. I don't know about the final destination forms. Do They have the same blast zones? Should you be able to go under them? I really don't know.)
PilotWings (I Don't know if this should be legal for teams, 1v1s, or both. The Tilting platforms, and the sometimes no kill floor sometimes present a problem.)
Miiverse (Of course, at the time of this writing, Miiverse hasn't been released. Will the drawings in the background be distracting? Or will the battlefield similarities pay off?)
Kongo Jungle 64. (Strangely, a 8 player smash choice, Kongo jungle, is interesting. personally, I think it's bigger than it first appears. Teams?)
Wrecking Crew (Bombs, and it's too tall.) UPDATE. HavocThunder has some good points about this stage. Check comments.
Wuhu Island (Cheap KOs,and it gets in the way. But it's kindof like Delfino Plaza. This glitch, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8dKc7RGU7o might bring up future discussion. Thanks to http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros.)
Castle Siege (Nearly legal in brawl, not that bad. Stage Transformations can turn this into a walk off, and kill you easily.)
Skyloft (Transforming stage with some Hazards. It can turn into a walk-off, and it can be a huge stage at times.)
TEAMS ONLY Windy Hill Zone (I don't know, zero hazards, it's big, great for 8 player teams; this might be fondly one remembered stage)
Banned:
Jungle Hijinks (It's too big! The pillars present problems, and the barrels are campy.)
Duck Hunt (Too big, weird platforms, and you can hide behind grass.)
Mario Circuit (Brawl) (Walk Off, disruptive hazards)
Mario Circuit (Cars are disruptive stage hazards, No kill, well, everything. walls, and ceiling.)
Coliseum (Walk-Off)
Gamer (Disruptive stage hazard. MOOOOM!!!!!!)
Dr. Wily's castle (Stage boss, Yellow Devil)
Palutena's Temple (Seriously? Do you want a tournament to last for 10 hours!!!!!!!????? No.)
Pac-Land (Side Scrolling)
The Great Cave Offensive (It's too big!)
Garden of Hope (Disruptive hazards, and it's too Big.)
Orbital Gate Assault (As we know from one Pic of the day, this stage took a year to make. Well, to that I say... BANNED!)
Pryrosphere (Because Ridley didn't make it in, he had to get mad, and ruin this perfectly good stage).
Boxing Ring (Walk-Off)
Kalos Pokemon League (Swords, Fire, Metal and Disruptive water 7.8)
Mario Galaxy (Walk-off)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit is extremely annoying, causing early kills, and cramping the game.)
Wii Fit Studio (Walk-Off)
Gaur Plain (HEY HEY! It's too Big, and Metal Face.)
Woolly World (Walk-off, and it's too big.)
75m (Disruptive hazards, and too big.)
Onett (Too big, and stage hazards. Cars.)
Port Town Areo Dive (No kill floor, and cars.)
Flat Zone X (Walk-Off)
Skyworld (Destroyable terrain, and, like kongo jungle, It's much bigger than it first appears. Heck, it's even a 6 player smash stage!)
Luigi's Mansion (Destroyable terrain, and it's too big!)
Norfair (Boiling Hot Magma. Get it?)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (It can make characters too light, and it's slippery at times.)
Temple (Too big!)
Bidge of Eldin (Walk-off)
Yoshi's Island (Stupid yellow platforms, and it's too big).

Thank you! Please leave your opinion in the comments!

 

[Morbi]

I am no authority on stages whatsoever, but everything about legal stages seems utterly arbitrary to me. I cannot follow logic where there is none. I will let TOs figure out whatever the hell it is they want and leave them be. As long as everyone is on the same page, it does not matter too much.

Halberd was legal in Brawl, but it has hazards. I suppose people argue that they are easily avoidable, but one could make the same argument for almost every single hazard in the game. It seems is subjective.

Castle Siege has walk-off transitions and the second form is a walk-off with destroy-able terrain. So why is Luigi's Mansion banned when it only has destructible terrain? Delfino Plaza also has a couple of walk-off areas as well if I recall correctly.

People argue that Final Destination favors some characters as it is flat, but Battlefield favors some characters because it has platforms.

If Final Destination is legal, I fail to see why Omega forms, objectively the same stage (with slightly different attributes) would be banned.

 

[Dazzap]

Nice comment! Halberd was included beacause of it's counterpick status in brawl. Same with castle siege and delfino plaza. Bout the FD frorms, I really don't know much about them. I really couldn't make it legal. I totally agree with your battle field point. Captain falcon can hit easily hit the knee on battle field. I think that luigi's mansion is too big.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I am no authority on stages whatsoever, but everything about legal stages seems utterly arbitrary to me. I cannot follow logic where there is none. I will let TOs figure out whatever the hell it is they want and leave them be. As long as everyone is on the same page, it does not matter too much.

Halberd was legal in Brawl, but it has hazards. I suppose people argue that they are easily avoidable, but one could make the same argument for almost every single hazard in the game. It seems is subjective.

Castle Siege has walk-off transitions and the second form is a walk-off with destroy-able terrain. So why is Luigi's Mansion banned when it only has destructible terrain? Delfino Plaza also has a couple of walk-off areas as well if I recall correctly.

People argue that Final Destination favors some characters as it is flat, but Battlefield favors some characters because it has platforms.

If Final Destination is legal, I fail to see why Omega forms, objectively the same stage (with slightly different attributes) would be banned.

Halberd was allowed because its hazards really are easy to avoid. They have like 10 second warnings, when most hazards average 3-5. Then Meta Knight started sharking everywhere...

Luigi's Mansion has solid surfaces, which leads to cave-of-life situations. The fact it's destructible is a point in its favor.

Final Destination is a bigger offender than Battlefield because having platforms is nothing new, but missing them entirely is an outlier.

The only reason to ban Omega forms is to dodge the debate over whether details like walled vs. floating make enough of a difference to warrant special treatment. And maybe to skip the whole procedure of picking a specific Omega.

 

[Dazzap]

Halberd was allowed because its hazards really are easy to avoid. They have like 10 second warnings, when most hazards average 3-5. Then Meta Knight started sharking everywhere...

Luigi's Mansion has solid surfaces, which leads to cave-of-life situations. The fact it's destructible is a point in its favor.

Final Destination is a bigger offender than Battlefield because having platforms is nothing new, but missing them entirely is an outlier.

The only reason to ban Omega forms is to dodge the debate over whether details like walled vs. floating make enough of a difference to warrant special treatment. And maybe to skip the whole procedure of picking a specific Omega.

Couldn't of said it better myself.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Should Omegas and Final Destination count as one? Like, if someone strikes or bans FD, that goes for all omegas as well? Also, what's the current standard counterpick lineup.

 

[Piford]

Should Omegas and Final Destination count as one? Like, if someone strikes or bans FD, that goes for all omegas as well? Also, what's the current standard counterpick lineup.

Yes Omega and Final Destination should count as one. There's no current standard counterpick lineup, but feel free to five your thoughts on what it should be.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Should Omegas and Final Destination count as one? Like, if someone strikes or bans FD, that goes for all omegas as well? Also, what's the current standard counterpick lineup.

Yes, they completly should. Imagine Playing a Little Mac, logically banning FD, and then getting counterpicked to a Omega stage, probably Omega FD for ****s and giggles.

Also, not sure on consistent counterpicks, but these are a couple I think generally tend to be on Counterpicks. Kongo Jungle, Duck Hunt, Wuhu, Delfino, Skyloft, probably a couple others

(Personally I'd like Kongo and Skyloft as starters, but hey, I'm not the guy running things)

 

[LiteralGrill]

Should Omegas and Final Destination count as one? Like, if someone strikes or bans FD, that goes for all omegas as well? Also, what's the current standard counterpick lineup.

FD = Omega seems to be the general consensus.

Also, I think most people would agree that this is a solid stagelist:

Starter

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City
• Smashville

Counterpick

• Delfino Plaza
• Wuhu Island
• Skyloft
• Duck Hunt
• Castle Siege
• Halberd
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Kongo Jungle 64

For the daring, add Mario Circuit Wii U, Windy Hill Zone, and/or Luigi's Mansion. If you want to do it right, have no starter/counterpick and have everyone striking from the full legal stagelist.

 

[HavocThunder]

Wreaking Crew (Bombs, and it's too tall.)

I'd like to hear some more detailed reasoning behind this. Bombs and exploding walls work under very straightforward rules. They take 14% dmg to destroy, they do 10% dmg and don't kill until 200% at the bottom. Is the issue taking damage from a hazard?

You can use ladders to get around vertically, and if you don't want to use them, blowing up the stage is always an option.

 

[Dazzap]

The Top Layer is too close too the blast zone. also, it's campy.

I'd like to hear some more detailed reasoning behind this. Bombs and exploding walls work under very straightforward rules. They take 14% dmg to destroy, they do 10% dmg and don't kill until 200% at the bottom. Is the issue taking damage from a hazard?

You can use ladders to get around vertically, and if you don't want to use them, blowing up the stage is always an option.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Should Omegas and Final Destination count as one? Like, if someone strikes or bans FD, that goes for all omegas as well? Also, what's the current standard counterpick lineup.

IMO striking/banning FD should also strike/ban Omegas at the same time. I don't care what the bottom of the stage is shaped like or how much you slide out of a dash, odds are you're picking FD because of the no platforms thing, and in that regard they're all completely identical.

And there's no standardized stage list at this point, I think literally every new stage in the game has had someone somewhere argue against its inclusion.

 

[HavocThunder]

The Top Layer is too close too the blast zone. also, it's campy.

You don't want to be at the top of the stage, you want to be near the bottom/middle where you can take control of the stage with the bombs. Being up there is really risky since you lose stage control AND you'll die at early percents! It can't be worse than a walkoff, and walkoffs are fine.

I'd argue it's not very campy. You can catch up to folks running away with ladders. This stage is definitely not for characters with projectiles because of the Tomodachi Life-like stage layout and bombs getting in the way. Well maybe unless you use projectiles to hit bombs from far away? Big characters really like this stage, it would make for a nice counterpick.

 

[Man Li Gi]

FD = Omega seems to be the general consensus.

Also, I think most people would agree that this is a solid stagelist:

Starter

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City
• Smashville

Counterpick

• Delfino Plaza
• Wuhu Island
• Skyloft
• Duck Hunt
• Castle Siege
• Halberd
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Kongo Jungle 64

For the daring, add Mario Circuit Wii U, Windy Hill Zone, and/or Luigi's Mansion. If you want to do it right, have no starter/counterpick and have everyone striking from the full legal stagelist.

KJ 64 should be a starter, but other than that, I'm ok. The stage is smaller than previous iterations (not by much though) and has better ledges and has better visibility. Stagnant and moving platforms help diversify this stage than the other stages. Is there a noticeably flaw or exploitable glitch that prevents it from being a starter? If the answer is no, then it should be a starter.

 

[Dazzap]

You don't want to be at the top of the stage, you want to be near the bottom/middle where you can take control of the stage with the bombs. Being up there is really risky since you lose stage control AND you'll die at early percents! It can't be worse than a walkoff, and walkoffs are fine.

I'd argue it's not very campy. You can catch up to folks running away with ladders. This stage is definitely not for characters with projectiles because of the Tomodachi Life-like stage layout and bombs getting in the way. Well maybe unless you use projectiles to hit bombs from far away? Big characters really like this stage, it would make for a nice counterpick.

While I think this would be cool for teams, i feel, that, it's too big. I'll Move it too debatable though.

 

[Dazzap]

Couple of edits. Castle Siege, Wuhu Island, Skyloft, moved to debatable.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Man Li Gi I understand that folks want KJ 64 as a starter, but it's controversial to some. I figure that list is tame enough almost any TO could find it acceptable. People still think it's very campy and has issues with strong sharking or stalling possibilities though I have yet to see it. This may change in the future for our events too, but as of now it's probably not gonna be there.

Although I DID say to strike from all legal stages, which would put it there, and that that was the preferable method

 

[NeonBurrito]

My thoughts on the matter:

Starters:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Miiverse (when it gets here)

Counterpicks:
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Castle Siege
Pilotwings
Kongo Jungle 64 (doubles only)

Debatable:
Pokémon Stadium 2
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone
Wii Fit Studio
Coliseum
Wrecking Crew

Banned:
Everything else