Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Man Li Gi]

I've never have hated moving stages, but having them as a starter over KJ64? Please tell me this a joke. Onto Omegas, well always believed if you strike FD, you strike all Omegas. If you are allowed to choose FD, then you can use any of the Omegas. That is the simplest (albeit laziest) solution to Omegas.

Green means that I 100% believe should be starters.
Yellow means that it could argued to be a CP instead.
Starters: Ranked in order of preference
Smashville
BF
KJ64
T&C
Lyat (the tilting isn't as dynamic as in Brawl and ledge snapping is even easier in this game)
Duck Hunt (the platforms are pretty static bar the dog).
FD (all omegas as well)

 

[Terotrous]

My apologies if this has already been asked within this thread. Considering the argument against platforms in Smash 4 and the lack of any character being at an advantageous position from being on them, I feel this is a legitimate question:

Is there a chance that, as the metagame develops for competitive smash 4, will tournaments be reduced to only FD versions of every stage?

Why would this ever happen, though? Even if people thought FD was the fairest stage in Smash 4, that's not really cause for banning the other stages. The point of counterpick stages is that we acknowledge and allow that some characters can gain some advantage from certain stages, and this advantage is afforded to the loser of the previous match both to increase variety and to help make matches more exciting.

Note that even though there was a near universal agreement that Smashville was the best stage in Brawl, tournaments never became "Smashville only". The only place that does that is Japan with their Smash 64 tournaments, which are just Dreamland.

I've spoken at length with a fellow smasher about this and his point was that after extensive testing, no character seems to have any advantageous position or approach options from being on a platform. At the highest level of play (at least currently) the testing showed the advantage was always to the individual not on the platform, but below them on the solid ground.

Platforms aren't only useful for approaching, they're also useful for escaping. If you get launched upwards, for example, the ability to tech on a platform may allow you to escape. Sometimes platforms can actually extend combos, too.

Also, note that not all platforms are created equal. Compare, say, Town and City and Kongo Jungle to Smashville. The positioning of their platforms is quite different, so that can affect the options you have from the platform.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Even if the statement "no character seems to have any advantageous position or approach options from being on a platform" is true (which no... no it's not. The level of complexity platforms give when recovering alone is a clear benefit to the recoverer over no platform at all), Then the game becomes about putting your opponent in a disadvantageous situation by forcing them to a platform. I don't see how that's any less deep or harmful to the metagame..

 

[Terotrous]

I've never have hated moving stages, but having them as a starter over KJ64? Please tell me this a joke.

Skyloft is a super fair stage, you should give it a try if you haven't.

In general, the travelling stages tend to be pretty neutral because they take you to a wide variety of stage layouts, thus all aspects of the game are in play (including some that are usually banned, like walkoffs, the problems with walkoffs are actually solved by travelling stages since you can't camp the blastzone or the stage will just leave you behind). It's hard to say that any particular character has an advantage when the stage is basically an amalgam of all different stages.

I think in past games, people got a bad impression of travelling stages because some of the travelling stages (notably Port Town Aero Drive) were really terrible. However, in this game there's quite a few good ones and I think people are starting to realize that they offer something different while still being fair for competitive play.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Skyloft is a super fair stage, you should give it a try if you haven't.

In general, the travelling stages tend to be pretty neutral because they take you to a wide variety of stage layouts, thus all aspects of the game are in play (including some that are usually banned, like walkoffs, the problems with walkoffs are actually solved by travelling stages since you can't camp the blastzone or the stage will just leave you behind).

I think in past games, people got a bad impression of travelling stages because some of the travelling stages (notably Port Town Aero Drive) were really terrible. However, in this game there's quite a few good ones and I think people are starting to realize that they offer something different while still being fair for competitive play.

I've never have hated moving stages, but having them as a starter over KJ64?
I do like moving stages....I just find it odd that it's more "fair" than KJ64. If Skyloft is starter, sure, but then add KJ64. That was my point. I played Brawl competitively and always questioned the eventual ban of Halberd, Delfino, and Frigate (all moving stages). The first two helped MK's sharking method, but still were manageable. I understand that moving stages should be legal, just not starting.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The thing is though, traveling stages, at least in this game, don't favor any character in particular. They've got a little bit of everything, which means their problems and bonuses are very short lived, as soon enough you will move on to the next stage. The point of a counter pick is that they benefit a certain type of character more so than other characters, but due to the sheer amount of arena shapes on a traveling stage like Skyloft, no one character has too large an advantage, meaning it should be a starter.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So I wrote this up on /r/smashbros too. If you guys would comment there as well I would appreciate it.​

Alright, I want to bring something up about Wuhu Island. I'm seeing in countless threads and at our own events people bringing up this glitch as a reason to ban the stage.

• First, I want to educate everyone about the stage. /u/ParanoidDrone has made an entire Wuhu Island Research Thread which can teach you a lot about how the stage works.

The stage travels on a pattern, and funny enough the boat is one of the LEAST visited spots making this glitch extra unlikely to happen.

• Second, I want to let people know how incredibly difficult it is to reproduce this glitch. I have personally attempted to 100+ times and not once have been able to. I have also not seen video footage of this glitch happening ANYWHERE else or heard others say it has happened to them.

So not only is the glitch unlikely to happen as the boat transformation is uncommon, but is almost impossible to reproduce. The chances of this effecting you in tournament is astronomically small.

• Third does anyone recognize this particular glitch? - How about this? - Or this? - Or This? - Or This? - Or this? - Or This? - Or this? - Or this

Did that drive the point far enough home? Far more common and detrimental glitches have been possible on legal stages in the past an no one batted an eye.

TLDR: People banning Wuhu Island for the glitch are having knee jerk reactions, the glitch is incredibly unlikely to kill you and you do not need to be afraid of it. Prior even worse glitches have been possible and the stages remained legal. Do not ban Wuhu Island at events for such an illogical reason.
​

 

[Terotrous]

I've never have hated moving stages, but having them as a starter over KJ64?
I do like moving stages....I just find it odd that it's more "fair" than KJ64. If Skyloft is starter, sure, but then add KJ64. That was my point. I played Brawl competitively and always questioned the eventual ban of Halberd, Delfino, and Frigate (all moving stages). The first two helped MK's sharking method, but still were manageable. I understand that moving stages should be legal, just not starting.

A number of little changes since Brawl (and the weakening of MK) have helped to make those stages more neutral, so Brawl shouldn't really be used as evidence of stage legality. Also, note that Skyloft and Wuhu Island are much better stages than Frigate and Halberd, with lesser hazards and less issues like ungrabbable ledges and the like).

As for KJ64, you can likely make the case for starter in a 7-stage list. It is definitely one of the top 10 or so most neutral stages in the game, however, for the reasons I stated above I would tend to give the travelling stages the nod first. The way they transition between multiple layouts gives them an inherent balance advantage over any stage that has a single layout all the time.

Alright, I want to bring something up about Wuhu Island. I'm seeing in countless threads and at our own events people bringing up this glitch as a reason to ban the stage.

People are sheep. I think a lot of the people calling for a ban on this stage have not actually tested it.

Call me when this happens again in a tournament setting and we'll talk.

Incidentally, I feel the same way about Mario Circuit Wii U. One person getting screwed over in a tournament match because they didn't know the stage != banned.

 

[Locke 06]

A little late to the discussion... but walled omegas can be an incredible counter pick. As a Mega Man main, I feel like that's one of my best stages because the wall works for me. I'm sure this helps other characters as well, but, for the sake of making an argument I actually know stuff about, I'll present why it helps Mega Man. This is an example of how different it is from vanilla FD, and I'm sure you can come up with other character specific ones.

- Wall jump. That's a given. But Mega Man puts it one further and can attach a crash bomb to the wall. If I'm really far out horizontally, I can put a crash bomb just above where the screen ends, up-B, wall jump, get hit by my bomb, and make it back to the stage. This buffs my recovery quite a bit.
- Limits recoveries. A lot of characters like to "ride under the stage" when recovering low to avoid meteors. This is especially true for characters with very vertical recoveries. With the wall, I can line up a hard knuckle parallel to the wall and it will hit if you are too close to the wall. I can land my meteors much easier here than anywhere else. (Note, you can also DI into the wall and tech, which is unique. I think I remember watching someone body block Ness and tech off a wall.)
- No stage spiking - No angled platforms means there's no way to stage spike.
- Ledge mixups. Ledge drop>wall jump> Bair is much easier on these stages and you get another option for the ledge game.


I think walled omegas are the most different from FD compared to tapered, floating, and the others making them a possible counterpick. I find it more different from FD than I find T&C is different from Smashville.


Consider the following: If the layout of Omega Wily's Castle (walled Omega) was its own stage and Omegas did not exist, how would we treat it? Would we consider it too similar to Final Destination and exclude it from stage lists?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Personally yeah I'd just treat it as the same stage. The most fighting is taking place atop the stage and recovering, and for the most part, they're very similar in that regard. I'm not saying there aren't differences, but I would at least stick them together for bans and striking

 

[Terotrous]

Consider the following: If the layout of Omega Wily's Castle (walled Omega) was its own stage and Omegas did not exist, how would we treat it? Would we consider it too similar to Final Destination and exclude it from stage lists?

Probably akin to Town and City, as a separate stage, possibly booted to CP for the sake of not centralizing the starter list.

I would not be inordinately against either allowing Walled FD as a separate counterpick or making Omega Mode a CP that's immune to DSR or some such.

 

[Nintendrone]

@ Locke 06 The problem is this affects strictly offstage, and the majority of the game is onstage. Although the offstage changes are real, why would characters who hate FD have to strike it twice? I feel that the best solution would be to make it that when FD is picked in game 1, either a 50-50 roll for walled/floating omega is done, or FD itself is played. In game 2+, it can either be the CPer picks the omega, or perhaps the winner.

If Omega Wily was its own thing, I feel that it would be excluded from its own slot and made a subset of FD. Unlike Melee's BF clones, the changes made when FD has walls is not nearly as substantial as the platforms being closer/smaller/moving.

 

[Terotrous]

@ Locke 06 The problem is this affects strictly offstage, and the majority of the game is onstage. Although the offstage changes are real, why would characters who hate FD have to strike it twice?

Yeah, I agree that this is an issue. This is why I was considering something along the lines of "this stage is counted as FD for the sake of stage striking, but DSR doesn't apply to FD / Omega Stages" or something like that. It's kind of hard to deal with under the current stage selection system.

 

[Fenrir VII]

A little late to the discussion... but walled omegas can be an incredible counter pick. As a Mega Man main, I feel like that's one of my best stages because the wall works for me. I'm sure this helps other characters as well, but, for the sake of making an argument I actually know stuff about, I'll present why it helps Mega Man. This is an example of how different it is from vanilla FD, and I'm sure you can come up with other character specific ones.

- Wall jump. That's a given. But Mega Man puts it one further and can attach a crash bomb to the wall. If I'm really far out horizontally, I can put a crash bomb just above where the screen ends, up-B, wall jump, get hit by my bomb, and make it back to the stage. This buffs my recovery quite a bit.
- Limits recoveries. A lot of characters like to "ride under the stage" when recovering low to avoid meteors. This is especially true for characters with very vertical recoveries. With the wall, I can line up a hard knuckle parallel to the wall and it will hit if you are too close to the wall. I can land my meteors much easier here than anywhere else. (Note, you can also DI into the wall and tech, which is unique. I think I remember watching someone body block Ness and tech off a wall.)
- No stage spiking - No angled platforms means there's no way to stage spike.
- Ledge mixups. Ledge drop>wall jump> Bair is much easier on these stages and you get another option for the ledge game.


I think walled omegas are the most different from FD compared to tapered, floating, and the others making them a possible counterpick. I find it more different from FD than I find T&C is different from Smashville.


Consider the following: If the layout of Omega Wily's Castle (walled Omega) was its own stage and Omegas did not exist, how would we treat it? Would we consider it too similar to Final Destination and exclude it from stage lists?

God so much this. Also kudos for choosing the best omega.
So I'm not sure how we should treat this... let's limit the conversation to FD and Omega Wily only for the time being. There are several arguments to be made here.

1. If I ban FD, do I ALSO have to ban Omega Wily?
2. Why should you be able to ban 2 inherently different stages with 1 ban?
3. Omega Wily and FD benefit different characters for different reasons on account of the offstage play. are they the same stage?
4. Omega Wily and FD benefit the same characters for the same reasons on account of the onstage play. are they not the same stage?

This is actually why I brought this topic up. There's a lot of things that people gloss over, that we should probably look into.

so I'm actually not sure how this should be handled. One thing I am becoming sure of... the CPer should be able to choose between floating and walled stages at the least. I know some TOs allow the winner of the first match to ban walled or unwalled, but I don't think they should be able to. Let it function as a CP completely... if they don't want a walled stage, ban FD, etc.


(Note that this conversation gets a bit janky if you consider Omega Lylat and its tough edges instead of Wily, even though the same arguments exist.)

 

[Man Li Gi]

A number of little changes since Brawl (and the weakening of MK) have helped to make those stages more neutral, so Brawl shouldn't really be used as evidence of stage legality. Also, note that Skyloft and Wuhu Island are much better stages than Frigate and Halberd, with lesser hazards and less issues like ungrabbable ledges and the like).

As for KJ64, you can likely make the case for starter in a 7-stage list. It is definitely one of the top 10 or so most neutral stages in the game, however, for the reasons I stated above I would tend to give the travelling stages the nod first. The way they transition between multiple layouts gives them an inherent balance advantage over any stage that has a single layout all the time.

Cuz the walk offs make the stage so fair. Travelling stages are good, but not better than KJ64.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A thought regarding kneejerk bans:

Once is a fluke.
Twice is a coincidence.
Thrice is a pattern.

Ideally we would wait for a pattern to emerge before even considering a ban.

 

[Terotrous]

Cuz the walk offs make the stage so fair. Travelling stages are good, but not better than KJ64.

Like I said earlier in the topic, you can't really camp the walkoffs on the travelling stages. If you sit at the blast zone, the opponent can just gain control the the center of the stage. Eventually, the platform is going to leave, and if you don't get back on, you're dead. Worse yet, by yielding the center of the stage you've given up stage control and they may be able to edgeguard you as you try to get back.

Walkoff camping just isn't a strong strategy on travelling stages. The middle part of the stage is almost always the strongest position to be in even at the various stops.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Locke 06 The problem is this affects strictly offstage, and the majority of the game is onstage. Although the offstage changes are real, why would characters who hate FD have to strike it twice? I feel that the best solution would be to make it that when FD is picked in game 1, either a 50-50 roll for walled/floating omega is done, or FD itself is played. In game 2+, it can either be the CPer picks the omega, or perhaps the winner.

If Omega Wily was its own thing, I feel that it would be excluded from its own slot and made a subset of FD. Unlike Melee's BF clones, the changes made when FD has walls is not nearly as substantial as the platforms being closer/smaller/moving.

I'm definitely of the opinion that if you strike FD, that should ban omegas as well. You're right, you shouldn't need to strike twice if you dislike FD.

The majority of the battle thing is a solid point. I'd counter with the fact that the majority of battles on T&C/Smashville take place on the main platform and not the moving one(s), but that's for another discussion.

@ Fenrir VII - You know it. Wily's my jam. (Although on 3DS, Reset Bomb Forest was my favorite).

I think you've laid out the questions very well. 1: no. 2: They're not that different. 3:They're different enough. 4: Does it matter? If the answer to question 1 is no, then I don't really see the problem.

Good point bringing up Omega Lylat though (ugh). This gets really tricky when 1 person wants FD and not Wily while the other wants Wily.

 

[Piford]

My apologies if this has already been asked within this thread. Considering the argument against platforms in Smash 4 and the lack of any character being at an advantageous position from being on them, I feel this is a legitimate question:

Is there a chance that, as the metagame develops for competitive smash 4, will tournaments be reduced to only FD versions of every stage?

I've spoken at length with a fellow smasher about this and his point was that after extensive testing, no character seems to have any advantageous position or approach options from being on a platform. At the highest level of play (at least currently) the testing showed the advantage was always to the individual not on the platform, but below them on the solid ground.

Now with edge hogging and some other competitive aspects removed from the game, I'm not one to shy away from part of the meta being to combo your opponent onto the platform and use their disadvantageous position in my favor, but there's a fair point to the idea of limiting to FD only and also to keeping some non-FD stages in as well.

What do you think?

If someones projectile spamming you, then its an advantageous position to be on a platform.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So I wrote this up on /r/smashbros too. If you guys would comment there as well I would appreciate it.​

Alright, I want to bring something up about Wuhu Island. I'm seeing in countless threads and at our own events people bringing up this glitch as a reason to ban the stage.

• First, I want to educate everyone about the stage. /u/ParanoidDrone has made an entire Wuhu Island Research Thread which can teach you a lot about how the stage works.

The stage travels on a pattern, and funny enough the boat is one of the LEAST visited spots making this glitch extra unlikely to happen.

• Second, I want to let people know how incredibly difficult it is to reproduce this glitch. I have personally attempted to 100+ times and not once have been able to. I have also not seen video footage of this glitch happening ANYWHERE else or heard others say it has happened to them.

So not only is the glitch unlikely to happen as the boat transformation is uncommon, but is almost impossible to reproduce. The chances of this effecting you in tournament is astronomically small.

• Third does anyone recognize this particular glitch? - How about this? - Or this? - Or This? - Or This? - Or this? - Or This? - Or this? - Or this

Did that drive the point far enough home? Far more common and detrimental glitches have been possible on legal stages in the past an no one batted an eye.

TLDR: People banning Wuhu Island for the glitch are having knee jerk reactions, the glitch is incredibly unlikely to kill you and you do not need to be afraid of it. Prior even worse glitches have been possible and the stages remained legal. Do not ban Wuhu Island at events for such an illogical reason.
​

Reading through that thread is incredibly disappointing so far. Quite a but of people are still saying it should be banned for minuscule reasons. Especially the one who bans because "it sucks"

Also, I want to address one comment.

First off, people should ask why Flat zone X is banned anyway. It may be obvious why it is banned, but we learn nothing from not asking questions. If people just accept the fact Flat zone x is banned without understanding why, then all that leads to is people being a bunch of sheep. People have a better understanding of how we get legal stages instead of just assuming and causing problems.

Next, no one has ever suggested for people to stop playing. What people are suggesting is for people to deal with any small problems that may arise from a transformation, like walk offs for example. The reason a walk-off is more ok in a transforming/traveling stage then just a normal walk off stage is because people have to give up stage positions in order to do a gimmick no one will fall for. Once the platforms come back, they will have to recover causing them to be in an inferior position they put themselves in.

Lastly, "There's no hope for these new people if they won't do research themselves and listen." Says the person telling people to stop asking questions.

 

[Pazx]

Here's my 7 stage starter list. The only thing arguably missing is Duck Hunt, which is almost certainly deserving of a spot, but no more than any of the other stages.

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Lylat Cruise
Town and City
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle 64

I think we need to re-assess the way we are handling Omegas...

The shear number of variants that CAN affect the match outcome/gameplay (walled, unwalled, or thin stages; un-walljumpable walls; cutouts; grass traction; etc) are fairly staggering.

I would say one of the following is the "correct" way to handle them.
1. Decide on 1 legal omega stage to use as FD (we don't actually have to use FD this time if the effects are a bit much)
2. Separate the stages into their subsets... where all stages in that subset (walled, walljumpable, etc) are the same (or the same type). Then strike the subsets if somebody CPs FD and let the winner choose their preference
3. Allow a handful of legal Omegas and let the CPer choose between them.

2 is probably the most complicated but also allows the most stage variety. 1 is the simplist with no variety. 3 is a decent compromise.

This takes a bloody long time so I'm hoping everyone will just Gentleman to Palutena's, but here's the most neutral way to decide which Omega stage to go to for game 1 (does not apply to CPs). I'm of the opinion that banning/striking FD = banning/striking all omegas.

3. The Omega Stage Rule: In the event that the Stage selected through Game One Stage Striking is Final Destination/Omega Stage and players are unable to agree on which stage, the Stage Striking Procedure is repeated with the Omega Stages List in a 1-2-2-2-1 fashion beginning with the Player who struck second in the initial striking procedure. If Final Destination/Omega Stage is selected as a Counterpick by the player who lost the previous match they may select any Omega Stage they wish.

Omega Stage List (9) - Information

Garden of Hope - Straight walls down to the bottom blast zone
Luigi's Mansion - Indented walls under stage
Bridge of Eldin - Wall is comprised of 2 straight walls above and below a curved guiding lip
Kalos Pokemon League - Guiding lip guides recoveries to ledge
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Floating stage, Small guiding lip, limited wall jump area
Norfair - Floating stage, moderate guiding lip
Temple - Floating stage, flat wall above narrow guiding lip
Lylat Cruise - Floating stage, no guiding lip, no wall cling/jump
Final Destination/Omega Palutena's - Floating, large guiding lip, wall jump and cling

(taken from my proposed ruleset and this thread)

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well due to challonge malfunctioning the tournament was a bust and has to be rescheduled. Details here. I promise it will still be happening though. Challonge had to pick the WORST night to mess up

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So Gimr posted his thoughts on why he thinks it should be banned and I will post my counter-points:

"Delfino has a fixed pattern"

...And? All the locations on wuhu seem pretty predictable if you play them enough times.

For all the ones that are saying "it promotes camping..." ...ok? The reason stages are banned for camping is usually because camping is just too good. The problem with most of these that say "it promotes camping" is that yes, you could camp. But when the platforms come back you are left in a unfavorable position. Meaning camping is not a dominant strategy.

Take the sand area. People could go and wait by the edge, but since the area is so huge, when the platforms comes up, you are really deep off stage.

I can already hear people saying, "but people can start heading back towards the center when the alert sign appears." One, that does reduce time people are able to camp making camping even less of an issue. Two, you already gave up your stage posistion giving people a nice opportunity to keep you near your walk off spot and away from where the platforms will come up.

Once people start seeing that camping actually does nothing to help them and is fact causing them to lose, it will stop being used often by pro players and matches won't go to time out. But of course, people have to play it and play it first. It's a stage that needs to be played on a bunch.

 

[Piford]

Well due to challonge malfunctioning the tournament was a bust and has to be rescheduled. Details here. I promise it will still be happening though.

So during that mess I ended up playing 2 sets (I won both), and here's how they went.

Set 1

Game 1: R.O.B. vs Jigglypuff
Starter Stage - Norfair

Game 2: R.O.B. vs Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff's Counterpick Stage - Woolly World

Set 2

Game 1: R.O.B. vs Toon Link
Starter Stage - Norfair

Game 2: R.O.B. vs Toon Link
Toon Link's Counterpick Stage - Wii Fit Studio

Game 3: R.O.B. vs Toon Link
R.O.B.'s Counterpick Stage - Luigi's Mansion

So what I got from playing this was Norfair is actually a really great stage. The lava only once hit someone without player interaction, and it could've been easily dodged (I managed dodged it but my opponent didn't). Woolly World definitely favors aerial based characters, but I never found the layout to actually be problematic. Wii Fit Studio played out like a normal match would. I didn't really notice the lack of off-stage play at all; the match just felt like a regular match should. Luigi's Mansion played great, understanding your surroundings is key in that stage. The ceilings didn't really play a huge part in the match.

 

[Pazx]

Norfair confirmed for 5th starter stage

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well I promise we'll get to try this again guys. I'm devastated challonge had to mess up tonight of all nights...

 

[19_]

Reading through that thread is incredibly disappointing so far. Quite a but of people are still saying it should be banned for minuscule reasons. Especially the one who bans because "it sucks"

Also, I want to address one comment.
View attachment 32428

First off, people should ask why Flat zone X is banned anyway. It may be obvious why it is banned, but we learn nothing from not asking questions. If people just accept the fact Flat zone x is banned without understanding why, then all that leads to is people being a bunch of sheep. People have a better understanding of how we get legal stages instead of just assuming and causing problems.

Next, no one has ever suggested for people to stop playing. What people are suggesting is for people to deal with any small problems that may arise from a transformation, like walk offs for example. The reason a walk-off is more ok in a transforming/traveling stage then just a normal walk off stage is because people have to give up stage positions in order to do a gimmick no one will fall for. Once the platforms come back, they will have to recover causing them to be in an inferior position they put themselves in.

Lastly, "There's no hope for these new people if they won't do research themselves and listen." Says the person telling people to stop asking questions.

That reddit comment explains what we have to deal with. You can argue with people like this all you want and we can keep debating what stages should be legal, but once we have videos and streams showing these stages work in a tournament setting only then will are arguments hold water, like it or not.

A thought regarding kneejerk bans:

Once is a fluke.
Twice is a coincidence.
Thrice is a pattern.

Ideally we would wait for a pattern to emerge before even considering a ban.

Case and point. this is the best way to test stages.

 

[SirKenneth]

I always thought the treatment of omegas was pretty simple. The way we usually handle it (and we adopted this from chibo) FD is a starter and omegas are treated as CPs. For post game 1 procedure striking FD strikes all omegas as well. If FD is decided for the stage the player can pick any omega.

Re-cap game 1 cannot be played on any omegas but FD can. Post game 1 FD and omegas are treated as the same thing during the stage selection sequence

 

[Jaxas]

I always thought the treatment of omegas was pretty simple. The way we usually handle it (and we adopted this from chibo) FD is a starter and omegas are treated as CPs. For post game 1 procedure striking FD strikes all omegas as well. If FD is decided for the stage the player can pick any omega.

Re-cap game 1 cannot be played on any omegas but FD can. Post game 1 FD and omegas are treated as the same thing during the stage selection sequence

That's what we do here too; though I saw a tournament where FD and Omegas were considered 2 different stages...
Watching people ban FD and then get counterpicked to Omega FD was hilarious though. (This was back near the release of Sm4sh 3DS)

 

[SirKenneth]

That's what we do here too; though I saw a tournament where FD and Omegas were considered 2 different stages...
Watching people ban FD and then get counterpicked to Omega FD was hilarious though. (This was back near the release of Sm4sh 3DS)

Yes they are far to similar to warrant them being different. Sure there are differences but they are hardly different enough to warrant being treated separately. At the end of the day they are all just FD. When you play on them you will play the mu as you would on FD nothing changes mu wise besides a walljump here and there.

The people that are arguing that the differences are enough to warrant them being different are going to end up getting them all but regular FD banned lol (which I wouldn't want to happen)

 

[san.]

I tried out Duck Hunt for the first time and I found the drunken camera disorienting. Was I just tired, or was it a slight issue for others?

 

[SirKenneth]

I tried out Duck Hunt for the first time and I found the drunken camera disorienting. Was I just tired, or was it a slight issue for others?

I personally hate duck hunt. The camera kills my brain. I'm legit scared that so many people like it because I can't be the only one who's brain actually (not figuratively) hurts when playing there.

TL:DR that stage gives me a serious headache

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Fun fact: Duck Hunt turns the character models into 2D Models. Any stage w/ a fixed camera does this (Pac-Land, Warioware, Flat Zone I think)

Just play around on the pause screen to see!

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Camera has never bothered me on Duck Hunt.

 

[NegaMawile]

smashboards. com /threads/ a-discussion-on-competitive-stage-criteria-for-the-3ds. 382152/ #post-18160904

If I could, ladies and gentlemen please direct your attention to this link on stage criteria it's lengthy but holds it's own place in this argument. It's focused more on the 3DS version simply because I don't have access to a Wii U and it also has a more lenient competitive scene allowing for more experimentation.

Simply remove the space and please add your input.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I haven't noticed any camera issues on Duck Hunt; it seems to behave about like I'd expect it to? I actually think the stage is rather cool even if I cannot be trusted to play responsibly on that stage (sorry, the ducks really do have to die).

 

[Fenrir VII]

I find the camera annoying while edgeguarding in particular... seems like the screen edges are much closer than on other stages, so a lot of edgeguarding scenarios, you really can't see the characters.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I haven't noticed any camera issues on Duck Hunt; it seems to behave about like I'd expect it to? I actually think the stage is rather cool even if I cannot be trusted to play responsibly on that stage (sorry, the ducks really do have to die).

There should have been a better reward for killing the ducks than items dropping. A 1% health recover like the usage of a Sun Salutation would have been enough.

 

[Terotrous]

Nah, the ducks are fine. They're like the balloon on Smashville. Sure, there's technically no reward for killing them, but everyone knows the true winner of the match is not the one who survives the longest but the one who kills the most ducks.

So Gimr posted his thoughts on why he thinks it should be banned and I will post my counter-points

Honestly, reading this all I see is "Johns johns johns johns johns johns".


We've already addressed a lot of these points, like how walkoff camping doesn't really work well on these stages.

If they want to use Delfino instead of Wuhu because they're worried about some stops having pits might be an issue then fine, though I'm very wary of the "it might lead to camping" argument, particularly when just blindly applied to pretty much every situation like that.

"This stage is flat, that promotes camping".
"This stage has too many platforms, that also promotes camping".
"This stage has a hazard, which of course promotes camping".


Why don't we try this stage and see if the camping strategy is actually effective?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Regarding killing the ducks, I wonder how situational it is to take advantage of the dog platform by killing the ducks in certain spots. The dog shows up where the duck falls, yeah? Does the dog platform lift you if you're on the ground?

I'd say they're at least a little more significant than Animal Crossing balloons.