Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[SJMistery]

I am gonna make a hot take. WarioWare should 100% be legal. Small stage be damned, we need at least one truly small counterpick. I know some people get salty dying 20% earlier or when they do something dumb like walk into a F Smash, but here is the thing. Our stage list is huge, and having one small stage as a CP works. I personally feel WarioWare got shafted in testing due to people getting salty about early kills when people are fine with camping on PS2 or Kalos.

If I was to have complete control of the stagelist, here is what I would make the stagelist

Starter
FD (Omegas Allowed if no Z Axis Shenenigans)
Battlefield (Forms allowed if no Axis Shenanigans)
PS2
Smashville
Town and City

Counterpick
Ygdrassil's Alter
Kalos
Unova
WarioWare
Lylat
Yoshi's Story

Add in the Prism Tower and Battleship Halberd on, and maybe Arena Ferox too if we can compromise the hazards toggle. The transforming stages are sorely missing from the stage list.

 

[ATH_]

I still stand firmly on the side that Castle Siege is a wonderful map with a great plat layout and a size that isn't too small. I'd really prefer Yggdrasil's Altar over Kalos too.

As well, I think experimenting with mixed hazards is by no means unconventional using individual rulesets. Even online, hazards can be toggled on and off between games now.

The possibilities in this game are endless but it sadly feels that the community wants to restrict it as much as possible and skew it toward camping. This didn't become a major issue though until covid had everyone has to use online and Sonic mains started winning everything.

Also Lylat is amazing, but if the community really wants it gone so bad then

 

[StrangeKitten]

I still stand firmly on the side that Castle Siege is a wonderful map with a great plat layout and a size that isn't too small. I'd really prefer Yggdrasil's Altar over Kalos too.

As well, I think experimenting with mixed hazards is by no means unconventional using individual rulesets. Even online, hazards can be toggled on and off between games now.

The possibilities in this game are endless but it sadly feels that the community wants to restrict it as much as possible and skew it toward camping. This didn't become a major issue though until covid had everyone has to use online and Sonic mains started winning everything.

Also Lylat is amazing, but if the community really wants it gone so bad then

I LOVE Castle Siege. Would be a great choice for an anti-camping stage. Lylat is also a favorite of mine

 

[Untouch]

In Spring Stadium, the ceiling disappears when on Hazards off and the springs don't spawn.
It feels like a better Smashville to me.

Edit: Nevermind the arch is till there, shame.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Honestly I don't see a huge issue with the arch in spring stadium. It's completely stationary and predictable. It can get in the way of KOs but since it's predictable I don't think it'll get in the way of a match in a way that's uncompetitive.

But considering that this community is overly conservative and has banned stages for little things like slopes, I don't think there's much of a chance for it actually getting legalized.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I also want to mention that you cannot stand on top of the ceiling bits. You just sort of slide off to the side in midair instead. But yeah, given past precedent with how the community handles stages, I have no real hope for it becoming legal.

The music slaps, though.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Dabuz also said that the ceiling probably has very little impact.
I'd be happy if it get tested, but have very little hope.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seems they've fixed Lylat's ledges now. Not much reason why it should get banned, and some very good reasons why it should be a starter.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

From what I've seen, ceilings are problematic because they're incredibly low to the ground and tend to be the same length as the platform underneath it if not longer. This creates a "cave of life" in which pretty much any decently hard hit causes players to ricochet off of the ceiling, and then the floors, giving them multiple chances to tech, live to absurd percentages, and getting rid of disadvantage entirely. The two ceilings in Spring Stadium are not only much smaller than the main platform, but are also located on the sides of it. Theoretically, this means two things:

1. Hitting the ceiling is more likely to keep you in disadvantage (either above the stage, to the side of the stage, both, or even under the stage if you've managed to live a while/are super light) than to allow you to just tech back on stage and regain neutral.
2. There is no cave of life to keep players safe since the angle required to hit the ceiling is very specific most of the time, and attempting to camp under them both gives up stage control, and is only effective against vertical finishers like Up Smashes, Up Throws, and Up Aerials. Even then, you now have to land rather than just get returned to the stage for a tech chase or something.

From my (admittedly, very) limited knowledge on the subject, it sounds like the ceilings provide more depth rather than a simple obstruction, and are at worst, a pretty invisible hazard that can be easily played around, as even if someone gets lucky, they can still immediately die right afterward if they don't play their cards right.

However, the layout is otherwise very similar to Smashville, and considering the fact that it was basically the only stage used competitively in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, one of the only two Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, and is one of the only counterpicks players will go to currently (even though it's a starter), I think it's safe to say the stage is DOA in terms of competitive usage. The only way I see it overcoming the stigma of "Smashville, but with jank" and making it onto stage lists is if an argument is made and won that having two Smashvilles would be better than having Final Destination, Town & City, and Kalos Pokémon League. Either that or if TOs would/could trust players to consistently pick the right ruleset for any given stage if they allow both hazards on and hazards off stages but that ain't happenin' either.

Side Note: This stage hates Little Mac slightly less, as he can actually full hop onto the center platform, and albeit with pretty strict precision, even Up Smash opponents up there. I doubt this would sway any opinions though. In fact, it would more likely be a point against legalizing the stage because apparently Little Mac's jump height is the exact platform height that screws up other character's combos, which is a big part of why Pokémon Stadium 2 was picked over Pokémon Stadium...as if there wasn't already overwhelming evidence that Little Mac's design is garbage.

 

[ATH_]

So on another topic, with Lylat's ledges snapping more characters much faster and making it very hard to shark under, I do believe it's time for that stage to be solidified as a potential starter.

I propose the following:

Starters
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Town & City
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks (2 bans, DSR)
Final Destination
Unova Pokemon League
Yoshi's Story
Kalos Pokemon League

Simple and clean, Lylat just works better and is the most unique legal stage of any of the counterpicks other than maybe Unova. I'd rather have 5 starters with Lylat than 5 starters with both town and kalos.

Would appreciate some thoughts on this line of thinking.

Side note: As much as I think Castle Siege and Spring Stadium are potentially viable, I leave them out here because they're still extremely high points of contention and would like to see more people's opinions on Spring Stadium before deciding to put it on a list.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

The only way I see it overcoming the stigma of "Smashville, but with jank" and making it onto stage lists is if an argument is made and won that having two Smashvilles would be better than having Final Destination, Town & City, and Kalos Pokémon League.

Yoshi's is basically Battlefield but smaller and with slopes. I'll still call for Spring Stadium to be legal dammit.

The whole point of counter picking stages is to potentially give yourself an edge and force your opponent to switch to a secondary or adapt. Like for example: Bowser thrives on Battlefield because his grab/slam can get early kills off the top platform, so taking him out of that removes an option and puts him at a disadvantage

So why shouldn't Spring Stadium be legal? Two smaller ceilings near the edge gives Mario less of a chance to ladder you off the top, a potential counter to Luigi's chain grab, Up+B if he does it in the wrong spot!

 

[ATH_]

Yoshi's is basically Battlefield but smaller and with slopes. I'll still call for Spring Stadium to be legal dammit.

The whole point of counter picking stages is to potentially give yourself an edge and force your opponent to switch to a secondary or adapt. Like for example: Bowser thrives on Battlefield because his grab/slam can get early kills off the top platform, so taking him out of that removes an option and puts him at a disadvantage

So why shouldn't Spring Stadium be legal? Two smaller ceilings near the edge gives Mario less of a chance to ladder you off the top, a potential counter to Luigi's chain grab, Up+B if he does it in the wrong spot!

Sure, I'll play devil's advocate then.

Ceilings are an aspect of the stage that is completely unique to that stage. For every other aspect, we currently have at least 1 other stage (with 1 exception) of that aspect being on other stages.

Slants? Yoshi's Story and Lylat.
Walls? Kalos and Yoshi's Story.
Smaller blastzones? Yoshi's Story and Smashville.
Smaller stage (10 units or so)? Yoshi's Story and Smashville.

The only stage that has a unique aspect that other stages don't is Town with its moving platforms. However, the smash community has made it clear that moving platforms are viable, and how much they would love for FoD with hazards on to be legal when it eventually gets fixed.

So, if Spring Stadium has a completely unique feature on it, it poses the question: Is that okay?

Here's why the answer is no: During the stage selection process, a specific number of bans and rules are applied between the players playing a set. The purpose of these rules is to eventually allow counterpicks which exist grant an advantage to the losing player. But with current lists, simply putting Spring Stadium on there would skew the lists in favor of characters who can abuse the ceilings more (most notably characters with steep angled aerials and similar features). This isn't assuming that current lists are perfectly balanced, and that adding Spring Stadium would unbalance it, though. This is assuming that those types of characters already have the proper advantage across the stage list.

For example, if you benefit off of smaller vertical blast zones, you're probably going to dislike how Spring Stadium can lose you a game by saving your opponent. The opposite applies as well to horizontal blast zones.

So, what gives? Does it imbalance it too much? Well, that part is extremely subjective of course, but the idea that you may have one additional stage you need to ban because you're character simply has a harder time killing on it or the opponent's character has a far easier time killing on it, poses the question: Does it matter?

I think yes, then. It does imbalance it. By having that unique aspect that no other stage has, it genuinely does imbalance the list because you can't simply give an extra ban and hope for the best, because the common list as is already is skewed towards camping on the large stages, meaning there are less small and multi-platform stages to go to. What if one of the campy characters ends up being really good with those ceilings? Well, then it's a problem.

Devil's advocate over. This isn't to say it isn't worth testing, of course not. I think the stage is actually super fun, but I do think that it having such a unique aspect from any other stage can become an issue with the counterpicking process.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

Sure, I'll play devil's advocate then.

Ceilings are an aspect of the stage that is completely unique to that stage. For every other aspect, we currently have at least 1 other stage (with 1 exception) of that aspect being on other stages.

Slants? Yoshi's Story and Lylat.
Walls? Kalos and Yoshi's Story.
Smaller blastzones? Yoshi's Story and Smashville.
Smaller stage (10 units or so)? Yoshi's Story and Smashville.

The only stage that has a unique aspect that other stages don't is Town with its moving platforms. However, the smash community has made it clear that moving platforms are viable, and how much they would love for FoD with hazards on to be legal when it eventually gets fixed.

So, if Spring Stadium has a completely unique feature on it, it poses the question: Is that okay?

Here's why the answer is no: During the stage selection process, a specific number of bans and rules are applied between the players playing a set. The purpose of these rules is to eventually allow counterpicks which exist grant an advantage to the losing player. But with current lists, simply putting Spring Stadium on there would skew the lists in favor of characters who can abuse the ceilings more (most notably characters with steep angled aerials and similar features). This isn't assuming that current lists are perfectly balanced, and that adding Spring Stadium would unbalance it, though. This is assuming that those types of characters already have the proper advantage across the stage list.

For example, if you benefit off of smaller vertical blast zones, you're probably going to dislike how Spring Stadium can lose you a game by saving your opponent. The opposite applies as well to horizontal blast zones.

So, what gives? Does it imbalance it too much? Well, that part is extremely subjective of course, but the idea that you may have one additional stage you need to ban because you're character simply has a harder time killing on it or the opponent's character has a far easier time killing on it, poses the question: Does it matter?

I think yes, then. It does imbalance it. By having that unique aspect that no other stage has, it genuinely does imbalance the list because you can't simply give an extra ban and hope for the best, because the common list as is already is skewed towards camping on the large stages, meaning there are less small and multi-platform stages to go to. What if one of the campy characters ends up being really good with those ceilings? Well, then it's a problem.

Devil's advocate over. This isn't to say it isn't worth testing, of course not. I think the stage is actually super fun, but I do think that it having such a unique aspect from any other stage can become an issue with the counterpicking process.

See, you so far are the only person who's given me a legitimate good critique and counter-argument when everyone else just says I'm dumb for suggesting it.

Regarding the ceilings, it's one way: You can hit the bottom but you pass through when coming at it from above. So it's not like Banjo can sit up there and just chuck down grenade eggs but I get what you're saying

 

[ATH_]

See, you so far are the only person who's given me a legitimate good critique and counter-argument when everyone else just says I'm dumb for suggesting it.

Regarding the ceilings, it's one way: You can hit the bottom but you pass through when coming at it from above. So it's not like Banjo can sit up there and just chuck down grenade eggs but I get what you're saying

For sure, I still don't know where I stand on it, but for the sake of a more thorough debate I think the stage having something completely unique from any other stage is something that needs to be discussed more. If you could stand on the ceiling it wouldn't be up for discussion I don't think.

I'd love to try it in practice, personally.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Spoiler

Now, most of those should be banned, obviously. And perhaps the ceilings should, too. But I feel like Spring Stadium will just get auto-banned with little to no testing to get a feel for whether said ceilings should really be banned, and it's a shame.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

It's a bummer that this cool stage will be written off at face value when it's "unarguable faults" are hardly much worse and difficult to work around than beforehand, but this is the day & age we live in now.

 

[Zekersaurus]

The problem is people are just talking about stage legality but they are not doing anything about it. There's all this theorizing about what does work and what doesn't work, but we need to try stuff out. Yeah, there's some stuff we could write off immediately. Some stages are just huge. Some stages have a cave of life, etc. Be that as it may, the legal stage selection we have now is bad. In a perfect world we can seamlessly toggle between hazards on and off. Though we don't have that option, we can still have a tournament viable stage selection with hazards on or off. People are either being way too conservative or are not thinking outside the box.

 

[teluoborg]

Spring Stadium size is 200, which is bigger than PS2.

The ceiling pads don't even get to be in the equation : the stage is just too big to be legal.

You people should do your homework
https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Stage/Spring Stadium
http://tournameta.com/stage-comparison/

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Spring Stadium size is 200, which is bigger than PS2.

The ceiling pads don't even get to be in the equation : the stage is just too big to be legal.

You people should do your homework
https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Stage/Spring Stadium
http://tournameta.com/stage-comparison/

While I don't see how the stage's size would cause trouble in a vacuum, it definitely has no place on the current stagelist given this information, especially since it would likely replace one of the more moderately sized/smaller stages.

Keep in mind though, that a lot (if not all) of this conversation likely took place before this data existed.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Thank you for the info, teluoborg ! Yeah, my posts were made before I knew just how drastic the blast zone sizes are. Those are much bigger than I thought they would be. Given this information, I am in favor of banning the stage. All I wanted was the stage to be given proper testing/a proper look rather than jumping the gun on a ban. A proper look has now shown the blast zones to be way too large.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If Spring Stadium is too large, then just legalize a smaller stage like Unova Pokemon League or Wario Ware to balance it out. I'm only half joking WW.

I guess I can see how a large stage could promote camping and longer game times, but banning it because of that without giving it a chance seems a bit harsh to me. I feel like Ultimate has kind of taken a "guilty until proven innocent" stance with stages. But I won't go further since this point has already been beaten into the ground.

 

[ATH_]

If Spring Stadium is too large, then just legalize a smaller stage like Unova Pokemon League or Wario Ware to balance it out. I'm only half joking WW.

I guess I can see how a large stage could promote camping and longer game times, but banning it because of that without giving it a chance seems a bit harsh to me. I feel like Ultimate has kind of taken a "guilty until proven innocent" stance with stages. But I won't go further since this point has already been beaten into the ground.

Honestly the main issue is that people are so stuck on restricting what layouts are viable then even when a great stage comes along that stays within that range (Yggdrassil, Spring Stadium, mixed Hazards for Dreamland/FoD etc etc) people will complain about there being too many of a single layout.

So like, it puts us in this weird position where the current accepted list (including lylat) is considered 90% fair and balanced to where adding or taking away from it results in a sudden imbalance.

Which, while that is plausible, there's so many neat ideas for a dynamic stage list beyond the simple starters and counterpicks that can support more unique stages without sacrificing balance.

However, people won't move on from the formula, and instead want to minimize stages until they either aren't a factor in competitive play or aren't important. Which, that's okay, but it could be so much more?

Anyway, I still think plenty of stages should go through real testing before being completely counted off. As is, the current list is basically broken into "bigger vs smaller" and "campy vs rushdown" and that's about it.

 

[teluoborg]

If Spring Stadium is too large, then just legalize a smaller stage like Unova Pokemon League or Wario Ware to balance it out. I'm only half joking WW.

I guess I can see how a large stage could promote camping and longer game times, but banning it because of that without giving it a chance seems a bit harsh to me. I feel like Ultimate has kind of taken a "guilty until proven innocent" stance with stages. But I won't go further since this point has already been beaten into the ground.

It's just an impression. It doesn't take a major tournament with 500+ players to see if a stage is legit or not, just a few games of freeplay are enough if you know what to look out for.

Spring Stadium isn't just too big to be added in the current list, it's too big to be legal. Try playing tag vs a Diddy or a ZSS on it if you don't believe me.

 

[Wunderwaft]

A new stage has been released in the game called small battlefield.

突然ですが『スマブラSP』に、”小戦場”を追加しました!
競技シーンでは主流の対戦である1on1をするには、戦場だとちと広い。終点だとちと物足りない。そんな見解から、足場を2枚に調整したステージになります。 pic.twitter.com/d9DIpNYwV9

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) August 5, 2020

 

[Untouch]

So... Small Battlefield.
I don't know the blastzones yet, but it's a smaller version of PS2/PS1.

From HBox's stream
Puff Rest kills 5% earlier on Small Battlefield off the top. Same ceiling as PS2 so that isn't a big deal.

May have something to do with platform heights, WFT UTilt can hit the platforms now while she can't on normal BF.

 

[ATH_]

Hell. Yes.
This is a great day.
No longer do we have to have two overly open stages on the starters!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hell. Yes.
This is a great day.
No longer do we have to have two overly open stages on the starters!

INB4 it's too small.

More seriously though, I am curious to see how the competitive community as a whole reacts to this stage.

 

[DJ3DS]

INB4 it's too small.

More seriously though, I am curious to see how the competitive community as a whole reacts to this stage.

I've largely seen excitement for it as a less polarising version of Unova (which is still run in areas).

It's likely going to see plenty of use, potentially even as a starter instead of Stadium as it balances out starter stage sizes to a greater degree.

 

[Untouch]

INB4 it's too small.

More seriously though, I am curious to see how the competitive community as a whole reacts to this stage.

It's the same size as Battlefield.

Main differences are that platforms are lower and closer to the middle, and the top blastzone is a bit lower, along with the obvious missing 3rd platform.
It's basically Unova but not as wonky, probably the most neutral stage in the game right now.

I doubt it'll replace PS2 but it'll probably end up replacing Unova, and I can't see why it won't be a starter.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Woah wait what a new stage out of nowhere?

Bless you, Sakurai, for listening to the competitive community. Us heavy mains (I co-main Incineroar with Joker) do better on smaller stages, but the few small stages that seemed viable at first had issues. Assuming the blast zones are the same as Battlefield/only a bit smaller, this seems like the small stage we've been looking for! Kinda ironic timing too; Marss, MVD, and ESAM have all been talking about Warioware lately

 

[GhostM]

Interesting that we got Small Battlefield, but I'm also glad that it allows you to play any music on all BF and FD stages. I guess people don't really mind the music, but I mean more variety in terms of choice is always great too. Judging from how the platforms are, I believe they should be the same position as regular Battlefield, but lower than PS2's.

 

[ATH_]

Interesting that we got Small Battlefield, but I'm also glad that it allows you to play any music on all BF and FD stages. I guess people don't really mind the music, but I mean more variety in terms of choice is always great too. Judging from how the platforms are, I believe they should be the same position as regular Battlefield, but lower than PS2's.

People definitely mind the music lol. A lot of complaints about Pokemon/Animal Crossing music being played over and over.

Platforms are lower (can be jumped onto by Ken, etc). Stage is small enough to jump under it to the other ledge (might need a rule against doing this too many times).

 

[Minix0]

In theory, it'd be awesome for Castle Siege, Melee PokeStadium with hazards, Unova, and maybe even WarioWare to be legal.

 

[New_Dumal]

I was very open minded with stages some time ago and I'm becoming more conservative at the same time that my investment and results in the game are getting better.

Some people do not fully understand the problems that having something as a ceiling in one stage. It's true that people would adapt to the ceiling if needed, but it's needed ? It's clear to me that people would start to play at high % near to the ceiling in order to be able to DI+tech or even to reduce knockback when launched there. People do not like when unpredictable/unreactable stuff happens in a competitive environment, this was always the major complaint with Lylat, for example. Eventually, people would survive absurd situations because of the ceiling and players will feel robbed.
Counterpick stages should add solid advantages and not add to the randomness of the game.
Yes, there were a lot of crazy counterpick stages in Brawl era (I played sets on Jungle Japes, Delfino, etc.), but we are trying to shape competitive Smash into something better, not equal.

While I do think it's good to test stages and renew/improve the metagame, we shouldn't take this expectations to any major. Majors should agree on a common stagelist for a while and revaluate from time to time.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Small Battlefield is obviously legal and most likely a starter. This should not be used as an excuse to drop Lylat, most of Lylat's recovery issues have been fixed and it's a decent enough stage, and it has a unique layout. Lylat should stay.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does Small Battlefield as a starter over PS2 and PS2 getting moved to counterpick status (on account of its size) seem at all likely to anyone?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Does Small Battlefield as a starter over PS2 and PS2 getting moved to counterpick status (on account of its size) seem at all likely to anyone?

Perhaps in the future. For the time being it does seem like Small Battlefield and PS2 are good for different characters. PS2 is a zoner stage, Small Battlefield seem to be more for jugglers and people killing vertically. As such, both could potentially be starters.

Town & City seems like it should go to counter-pick now.

 

[Neil2TheKing]

I was very open minded with stages some time ago and I'm becoming more conservative at the same time that my investment and results in the game are getting better.

Some people do not fully understand the problems that having something as a ceiling in one stage. It's true that people would adapt to the ceiling if needed, but it's needed ? It's clear to me that people would start to play at high % near to the ceiling in order to be able to DI+tech or even to reduce knockback when launched there. People do not like when unpredictable/unreactable stuff happens in a competitive environment, this was always the major complaint with Lylat, for example. Eventually, people would survive absurd situations because of the ceiling and players will feel robbed.
Counterpick stages should add solid advantages and not add to the randomness of the game.
Yes, there were a lot of crazy counterpick stages in Brawl era (I played sets on Jungle Japes, Delfino, etc.), but we are trying to shape competitive Smash into something better, not equal.

While I do think it's good to test stages and renew/improve the metagame, we shouldn't take this expectations to any major. Majors should agree on a common stagelist for a while and revaluate from time to time.

You discovered how the Smash Stagelist got so conservative in the first place. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with unique stages, but when you become one of your community’s best players, you stop liking the unique stages because they impact your consistency.

Let’s suppose for a moment that your community’s stagelist consists of 5 stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, and Delfino Plaza. If you become one of the top players in your scene, odds are you are very good at the first four stages. Odds are the stage you are the worst on and get upset on the most frequently is Delfino Plaza. This is because Delfino Plaza asks you to learn and master unique game features not present on the other stages. You have to manage changing blast zones, changing stage layouts, water, etc. None of this stuff is uncompetitive or random, but the jab locks and platform pressure you perfected on FD and Battlefield aren’t as relevant on Delfino. Over time top players grow to resent stages like Delfino because while they consistently win on the other four stages they lose on Delfino to stage specialists. They get the stage banned arguing it’s uncompetitive, but really it’s just unique and rewards different skillsets.

A great example of this is Smash Bros Brawl. A bunch of stages like Delfino and PS2 were banned over time. Some would argue those stages were banned to balance Meta Knight, but considering Meta Knight was still broken and the stages remained banned I suspect an ulterior motive.

Here’s a fun fact: when you ban a stage, you shrink your community. Mid level and casual players stop showing up when you ban their favorite stage. Once you ban a stage you likely won’t hear from the players who liked the stage because they stop showing up. The new players who come to your events like your stagelist because they know what they signed up for, but you never hear from the competitors you alienated along the way.

 

[Mooer]

I think I’d like to see FD, Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Smashville, and PS2 as the starters. I never really liked Town and City as a Starter as its real similar to FD most of the time. I could totally see switching out PS2 for Lylat instead

 

[Thinkaman]

You discovered how the Smash Stagelist got so conservative in the first place. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with unique stages, but when you become one of your community’s best players, you stop liking the unique stages because they impact your consistency.

Let’s suppose for a moment that your community’s stagelist consists of 5 stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, and Delfino Plaza. If you become one of the top players in your scene, odds are you are very good at the first four stages. Odds are the stage you are the worst on and get upset on the most frequently is Delfino Plaza. This is because Delfino Plaza asks you to learn and master unique game features not present on the other stages. You have to manage changing blast zones, changing stage layouts, water, etc. None of this stuff is uncompetitive or random, but the jab locks and platform pressure you perfected on FD and Battlefield aren’t as relevant on Delfino. Over time top players grow to resent stages like Delfino because while they consistently win on the other four stages they lose on Delfino to stage specialists. They get the stage banned arguing it’s uncompetitive, but really it’s just unique and rewards different skillsets.

A great example of this is Smash Bros Brawl. A bunch of stages like Delfino and PS2 were banned over time. Some would argue those stages were banned to balance Meta Knight, but considering Meta Knight was still broken and the stages remained banned I suspect an ulterior motive.

Here’s a fun fact: when you ban a stage, you shrink your community. Mid level and casual players stop showing up when you ban their favorite stage. Once you ban a stage you likely won’t hear from the players who liked the stage because they stop showing up. The new players who come to your events like your stagelist because they know what they signed up for, but you never hear from the competitors you alienated along the way.

All of this is dead on.

Meta Knight gets brought up as a pariah whenever a stage like Delfino gets mentioned, yet we spent 6 years playing 90% of game 1s on Smashville, his best "starter".

This is neither an accident nor conspiracy. It's the logical, inevitable conclusion of the system and the forces acting upon it.