ssbm: bias and help and stuff

[SonuvaBeach]

Abu...Puff is the gayest character in the game. She plays like brawl. She's easy to learn. She has rest. Without her melee would be perfect. It's a sad story bro!!!

 

[Spyro]

@ Everyone who is saying puff is "gay": Have you people seen king? He's the only puff I like to watch. Every character can be played "gay". It's the players that makes the matches entertaining or not so entertaining, not characters alone.

 

[Gea]

Characters that seem easy to use at low levels are obviously ones with spammable moves that seem powerful and relatively difficult to punish, especially at that skill level. Characters that seem easy at mid-serious levels are those with unique properties that much of the cast has to play drastically different to beat. Puff has super floatiness and all those jumps, and Falco has his laser.

But at top levels anyone has to work hard. Puff has to be super patient and play down to the % many times, and Falco gets death-touched. As long as Atomi doesn't use the characters as a crutch, who cares? I'm sure he still messes around with everyone.

 

[KrIsP!]

Is called a *****; continues to *****.

 

[Divinokage]

Abu...Puff is the gayest character in the game. She plays like brawl. She's easy to learn. She has rest. Without her melee would be perfect. It's a sad story bro!!!

Easy to learn... ya right.. Keep your sad story to yourself, more puffs just means they'll get punched to the sky.

 

[Dark Hart]

People who hate puff are like people who hate homosexuals

It's ****ing hilarious to watch them talk about why they hate

Edit: "your character choice is ruining the sanctity of my Melee"

 

[Divinokage]

All you really have to do is change the timings of your attacks to hit Puff.

 

[JOS.fm]

anytime I see kage post I have to resist the urge to troll so hard

 

[Divinokage]

You should not do it then, it would make the community look better.

 

[Strong Badam]

People who hate puff are like people who hate homosexuals

two completely unrelated concepts

 

[Divinokage]

two completely unrelated concepts

Ya but the feeling of hate isn't any different, the concepts don't matter. Love and hate are universal no matter how specific you want it to make.

 

[debaser]

two completely unrelated concepts

it's the imagined sense of moral authority.

 

[Strong Badam]

The concepts matter, kage. Hating black people and hating Nickelback are completely ****ing different

 

[Life]

Not so sure. Hating Nickelback's music is one thing, hating its members personally because they make music you dislike is another

 

[Deleted member]

i play Jigglypuff and Falco. Jigglypuff just suits my mentality so well, and rest is a psycho-good combo finisher. i like Falco because of his laser lol

jigglypuff and falco are 2 of the 4 "unfair" characters of this game because they don't play by the same rules that the rest of the cast has to in terms of positioning, the other 2 being ice climbers and fox. each of these characters has something that circumvents the standard game play that the rest of them are subject to.

for jigglypuff, you have to redefine what positional advantage means, because your placement relative to the opponent's placement has different threatening positions, so you can be in a "bad position" and no other character in the game has those same holes. a lot of players say you can't pin jigglypuff and that's bull****, don't listen to them. it's just different and harder.

for falco, laser means that you have free stage control everywhere forever as long as you don't use it in a sketchy/risky manner.

both characters also circumvent standard shield mechanics, having a frame 1 invincible down B or particularly threatening aerials.

to be honest though, you may want to just focus one one character over two after you're more familiar with the game. it'll help you see the game better through whichever lens the character gives you.

 

[Gea]

^^^^^^^^^^

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've never thought of ICs as "unfair" in terms of positioning. Is it due to their desynchs/the fact that there are two of them?

When I spoke to you about pinning Puff, you told me that it didn't mean much! Though, perhaps I was thinking of pinning her in the wrong way.

Also, congrats to you, Atomi, for improving so very quickly. It's very nice to see that.

 

[Gea]

I think Mow was mainly talking about characters that have tools that change the "rules of the game." Like vs ICs you have to treat grabbing them (even the way you have to respect their shields) or pressuring them very differently due to this. Platform usage works somewhat differently as well. You could definitely attribute these things towards positioning if you wanted to word it that way. Plus how they control and utilize space is different in general. Think about things like desyncs/nanapult/having to be aware of what the other climber is doing.

A kind of less useful but more blunt example is that you can have an IC both ontop of and below a platform at once. On the ledge and at the ledge at once. Lightshield and normal shield at the same time. The only character that can break out of grabs using anything besides mashing. A character where a grab at any % can mean death and they are very ground heavy/mobile so they can hold parts of the stage with way more gusto because the risks of losing the exchange can be brutal even by Melee's standards.

I'm sure he can put it in his own words way better than my musings.

 

[Divinokage]

The concepts matter, kage. Hating black people and hating Nickelback are completely ****ing different

Yes I understand that but you don't go to someone's face saying you hate Nickelback because that situation doesnt happen quite as often as if you see someone black you may just end up hurting him. Hate is still hate, it doesnt matter. Your degree of hate may differ of course, that just depends how blind you are lol.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

jigglypuff and falco are 2 of the 4 "unfair" characters of this game because they don't play by the same rules that the rest of the cast has to in terms of positioning, the other 2 being ice climbers and fox. each of these characters has something that circumvents the standard game play that the rest of them are subject to.

for jigglypuff, you have to redefine what positional advantage means, because your placement relative to the opponent's placement has different threatening positions, so you can be in a "bad position" and no other character in the game has those same holes. a lot of players say you can't pin jigglypuff and that's bull****, don't listen to them. it's just different and harder.

for falco, laser means that you have free stage control everywhere forever as long as you don't use it in a sketchy/risky manner.

both characters also circumvent standard shield mechanics, having a frame 1 invincible down B or particularly threatening aerials.

to be honest though, you may want to just focus one one character over two after you're more familiar with the game. it'll help you see the game better through whichever lens the character gives you.

I would say peach also breaks the rules of the game thanks to float canceling, also wouldn't 1 frame upb's oos also fit into your breaking the shield rule

 

[DrinkingFood]

Bowser is a clear violator because of that. Not that it hits on frame one... but it's safe on frame one.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I've never thought of ICs as "unfair" in terms of positioning. Is it due to their desynchs/the fact that there are two of them?

When I spoke to you about pinning Puff, you told me that it didn't mean much! Though, perhaps I was thinking of pinning her in the wrong way.

Also, congrats to you, Atomi, for improving so very quickly. It's very nice to see that.

the most radically different thing about fighting ICs in the neutral game is probably the fact that you can't grab them very much at all

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much yeah tai nailed it.

I would say peach also breaks the rules of the game thanks to float canceling, also wouldn't 1 frame upb's oos also fit into your breaking the shield rule.

peach is a fair character with unusual movement options. she has a particularly good micro game with float and other less important things but she doesn't alter the fundamental macro gameplay like fox does. peach can remove a few frames of lag. fox can always choose when to attack. these things are not strategically equal.

 

[Bones0]

Half of Melee's cast doesn't play by the rules of the game. That's why the game is ****ing awesome. Everyone wants to break the rules. As long as it takes absurd amounts of skill to be broken, it's not really that broken. I'd also get bored with playing almost every matchup the same way. I much prefer having to learn how to deal with IC's broken desyncs, Falco's broken lasers, Marth's broken grab/range, Fox's broken shine, Falcon's broken speed, Luigi's broken WD, etc.

 

[KrIsP!]

NO! Everyone must be comboed the same way or it's obviously unequal. On top of being comboed the same way as Fox, jiggs must also die at the same percent as she does now because gay.

 

[ShrieK1295]

I think Jiggs is gay because going off stage is so risk free and that b1otch gets six jumps back when my god awful up+b saves my life for 1 second by them screwing up and getting hit by it before they kill me right after. Jiggs isn't easy to learn and I could never play that style. Regardless of any balance complaints, I just can't imagine why the **** someone would play melee and pick Jiggs as their main. "Gay" doesn't mean "broken," just "****ing annoying"

 

[Bones0]

Recovering from below is actually pretty hard for Jiggs. Almost everyone's up-B goes higher than all of Puff's jumps combined, even when alternating rising pounds. Falco can grab ledge -> DJ dair spike. Fox can shine spike. Marth can run off dj dair spike. Sheik can needle her super easily. Falcon/Ganon can abuse their huge stomps. Also, she has no up-B...

Not trying to say Puff's recovery is bad, obviously, but you will rarely see good Puff players dropzone off stage recklessly because it's still pretty risky. Her great recovery is only on the presumption that you DI'd amazingly because she's light as **** and her recovery is only amazing when you're up high.

As far as why someone would pick her, I think a big reason is rest. It's just such an awesome move. It's a specific part of her game that oozes brokenness just like the rest of the cast, and it's the highest risk move in the game because you'll frequently die for missing, and sometimes even if you DO hit it. The clutch factor involved is just really exhilarating and one of the main reasons I like playing her. Outside of that, I think her aerial mobility is so good that it frees you up to do a lot of stuff no other characters can. Just watching the way Hbox weaves moves is incredible as he uses bairs to cover options that no one can seem to get around, and then when you least expect it he swoops down with a nair that autocancels into extremely difficult, but beastly punishes. There's also the fact that her edgeguarding is really badass when you haven't done it a million times like Hbox (it's still pretty badass to me though lol). Spacies rarely want to jump out to edgeguard opponents, and the other top tiers that do don't rely on it nearly as often as Puff does. As far as I can tell, her on stage edgeguarding is pretty ***.

So yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff to like about Jiggs, especially if you are a new player who can't see the potential other characters have only after hours and hours of tech skill grinding. All of the top tiers are quite boring compared to Jiggs at lower levels because even something as simple as aerial weaving can be experimented with by new players. Someone who just picked up the game can't really experiment with Fox because he needs to be able to DDWD, JC shines, and delay aerials impeccably. Puff is also forgiving for when you get hit, which I think is a reason Puff players improve faster than other players. People always want to say that they get better because Puff is easy, but they also engage in spacing situations 10x more per match than all the other characters that just get comboed and gimped a ton. If a spacie messes up vs. a good player, they're going to spend the next few seconds desperately trying to get out of the combo tornado. If a Puff player messes up, he has time to think and analyze his spacing in relation to the opponent's followup because it isn't as immediate. This also makes it that much easier to learn from mistakes because you are calmly drifting back to the stage instead of trying to do ridiculously precise up-B angles, side-B heights, and wall tech ****. Having a secondary Puff would probably help a lot of people get better at spacing much more quickly than with other characters that largely encourage "spray and pray" with SHFFLed aerials when you're playing equally bad opponents.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I really like what you said about Puff players improving fast, never thought of it like that before.

I don't think anyone in this game is more gay than any other character, everyone can do stupid, easy **** and everyone can do super intense clutch ****. I don't think the fact that Jigglypuff's super clutch **** doesn't emit hexagons of blue light every few frames makes it any less impressive.

 

[Lovage]

no i disagree i think some characters are tougher to use than others


and hbox is still an amazing player!

 

[Bones0]

#1 reason people view Puff as lame is because no one actually watches from her perspective (because no one plays her). People pay attention to spacies when they're doing absurd combos, therefore spacies are broken. For the other 80% of Melee combos, people like to ignore that it's usually a spacie getting annihilated. Same sorta thing happens for Puff. They are watching their cool little Fox fly around the screen doing 2-3 hit links, and then boom, they watch as Puff does a 2-3 hit combo into rest for a stock. They weren't paying attention to all the work the Puff did to get that first hit while Fox flew around her, so they feel like she didn't earn it. This effect in general is why people tend to underrate their own character and inflate the brokenness of everyone else's.


@Lovage
Tougher in what respect? I think each character has a different set of challenges they face to becoming better, and whether a character is easy or hard to improve with is largely going to depend on the player. Someone who intuitively gets spacing but struggles to link combos on the fly is going to improve faster with different characters than someone who intuitively links combos, but struggles to space for those first hits.

 

[KrIsP!]

I don't know about improving faster...maybe as time goes on but certainly not from practicing tech skill. I felt pretty terrible when a fox who was a bit newer than I was popped off with techskill once but your right, between a mixture of getting out of combos and a greater emphasis on thinking rather than facerolling the controller ended up with me noticing some habits, punishing them and patting my brain on the back.

This literally played through my mind as an analogy of my situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxChP7oux1E&feature=player_detailpage#t=330s
imagine being thrown in the water as being usmashed into the air. Another reason why melee is like DBZ except not about running at eachother with nairs.

 

[odinNJ]

I disagree with the improving faster concept. It is easy for new players who use puff to fall into bad habits that work against their friends simply because they are playing puff. I mean her puff is broken but so are all the other top tiers, I just think that at LOW LEVELS playing puff is a bit cheap

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I dunno, due to playing spacies against bad players for ages I developed really bad habits with how predictable I was. I would just always laser > shffl'd dair with Falco every time.

My Puff never had this problem to such an extreme degree.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I still have a bunch of bad habits directly out of my learning to pillar level 9 days. Obviously Puff will have some too, but she doesn't have any patterns that you have to execute a million times in order to use properly aside from dair flips or AC nair, which can't be spammed nearly as much as spacie SHFFLs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think the simplest way to put it is that Puff can't use tech skill as a crutch at low levels, Fox/Falco can.

While we are on this topic, I just want to say that no one should ever try and learn competitive play with ICs. It completely messes with everything.

 

[Bones0]

I bet you get mad good at working off hits into grabs though. lol

This is why I suggest 3-4 characters when starting out, even though it will be slow-going in learning basic character-specific combos and strats.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well I'm really familiar with every little nuance of the character now, but I didn't actually get to develop my fundamentals until I started using other characters.

Like when I first started ICs I used heaps of blizzard desyncs cause it was all I knew how to do.
I started learning spacies and then my ICs did heaps of SHFFL'd aerials.
Only now after learning Sheik and just understanding the game better am I playing them properly.

 

[ZelDan]

Who cares if Atomi plays puff? The melee community should just be glad we got a TFG person to get into smash, no matter his character preference.

Personally I respect puff players in some ways, for sticking with an unpopular character.

unpopular in that everyone hates puff, not in that puff is under-represented or anything.

 

[Bones0]

She is massively underrepresented...

 

[Citrus]

Pretty much not fox/falco is under represented