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ssbm: bias and help and stuff
- Thread starter Atomi
- Start date
Stylez
Smash Cadet
Lol this thread is titled "ssbm bias..." and everyone's been arguing over puff. Seems legit
Kadano
Magical Express
So … what happened? Is Atomi still playing?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Was wondering the same thing myself. It's possible he just lost interest, since he appeared to be playing out of curiosity.
Lanceinthepants
Smash Lord
Haven't talked to Reid in awhile. Where he lives there is no scene. He was driving like 2 hours just to come to like 6 man tournies lol.
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
Wow, wtf. I lost everything I typed because I had to log back in. Anyway...
I've been a part of the FGC since SF2. I main Sol/Ky/Dizzy in Ken in 3S, Kasumi in DoA4, GGXX, Sion/Akiha/W-Arc in MBAA, MSP in MvC2, Xianghua in SC2, Sagat in SF4, MK/Snake/Marth in SSBB, Fox/Sheik in SSBM (Falco/Marth/Puff as secondaries), Boxer/Guile/'Gief in SSF2T:HDR, Heihachi in Tekken 5, Dormammu/Magneto/Wesker in UMvC3, and whatever the hell else I've forgotten. As you can see, over the past two decades, I've dropped and picked up certain franchises.
A decade ago, I believed that MvC2 was the fastest, deepest, and most technical FG ever, and SSBM was a close second. To this day, I still think that MvC2 is the fastest game ever (since much of that game is practically played by looking at frames), but since I'm no longer biased, I feel like SSBM is just as deep as MvC2 and VF5 while being just as technical as MvC2.
You have pokes in both SSF4:AE and SSBM. You'll have spacing in every fighting game. Spot dancing is similar to concepts like dash-dancing and wavedashing. Zoning isn't as prevalent in SSBM as it is in other fighting games, but that's because it's niched for certain characters. If you want to see a projectile war, watch Falco dittos between DaShizWiz and Forward. Youmi and predictions are just as important in SSBM as they are in SSF4:AE. SSBM doesn't have true cross-ups, but there are wake-up games in the form of tech chasing. Combos aren't as auto-pilot in SSBM as they are in other FGs, but they vary with the opponent's damage level. We have DI (directional influence) in place of things like "fly-up," BURST, C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker!, heat, blood heat, etc.
Don't feel bad about your bias. Both communities are full of people who talk about other games without knowing anything about them. Smashers will stand by Melee as being the most techncial, fast-paced, and deep without having ever touched anything else. Traditional FGers will always see Smash as a kid's game. Look at it this way: watching SSF4:AE, most people would think it's a game where people only hit-confirm until they can auto-pilot into devastating combos. You and I both know that's just plain wrong. Likewise, people who watch Smash would only see a shallow, untechnical kid's game, which is also just plain wrong. Considering all of that, I commend you for making an attempt to work past your bias.
Learning Fox is like learning MvC2 Magneto. Learning Falco like learning Sentinel, and learning Sheik is like learning Cable. As for actual advice, I would say to not learn Fox as your first character unless you're serious about learning and *KNOW* that you will actually be playing the game (which at this point, you seem to be in a trial phase). Magneto was the first character that I truly learned in a FG, but he took a long time to master...nearly two years. Learning him made learning every other game practically cake, but that's not something you should jump into if you're only giving something a chance. Pick up Sheik. She's easy to learn, and you'll pubstomp casuals overnight.
You will most likely enjoy Melee if you can find the same caliber of players that are so plentiful in SSF4:AE. I'm not saying that the community is small, because it isn't. You just can't just walk into any arcade and play Melee like you can with other FGs.
I've been a part of the FGC since SF2. I main Sol/Ky/Dizzy in Ken in 3S, Kasumi in DoA4, GGXX, Sion/Akiha/W-Arc in MBAA, MSP in MvC2, Xianghua in SC2, Sagat in SF4, MK/Snake/Marth in SSBB, Fox/Sheik in SSBM (Falco/Marth/Puff as secondaries), Boxer/Guile/'Gief in SSF2T:HDR, Heihachi in Tekken 5, Dormammu/Magneto/Wesker in UMvC3, and whatever the hell else I've forgotten. As you can see, over the past two decades, I've dropped and picked up certain franchises.
A decade ago, I believed that MvC2 was the fastest, deepest, and most technical FG ever, and SSBM was a close second. To this day, I still think that MvC2 is the fastest game ever (since much of that game is practically played by looking at frames), but since I'm no longer biased, I feel like SSBM is just as deep as MvC2 and VF5 while being just as technical as MvC2.
You have pokes in both SSF4:AE and SSBM. You'll have spacing in every fighting game. Spot dancing is similar to concepts like dash-dancing and wavedashing. Zoning isn't as prevalent in SSBM as it is in other fighting games, but that's because it's niched for certain characters. If you want to see a projectile war, watch Falco dittos between DaShizWiz and Forward. Youmi and predictions are just as important in SSBM as they are in SSF4:AE. SSBM doesn't have true cross-ups, but there are wake-up games in the form of tech chasing. Combos aren't as auto-pilot in SSBM as they are in other FGs, but they vary with the opponent's damage level. We have DI (directional influence) in place of things like "fly-up," BURST, C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker!, heat, blood heat, etc.
Don't feel bad about your bias. Both communities are full of people who talk about other games without knowing anything about them. Smashers will stand by Melee as being the most techncial, fast-paced, and deep without having ever touched anything else. Traditional FGers will always see Smash as a kid's game. Look at it this way: watching SSF4:AE, most people would think it's a game where people only hit-confirm until they can auto-pilot into devastating combos. You and I both know that's just plain wrong. Likewise, people who watch Smash would only see a shallow, untechnical kid's game, which is also just plain wrong. Considering all of that, I commend you for making an attempt to work past your bias.
Learning Fox is like learning MvC2 Magneto. Learning Falco like learning Sentinel, and learning Sheik is like learning Cable. As for actual advice, I would say to not learn Fox as your first character unless you're serious about learning and *KNOW* that you will actually be playing the game (which at this point, you seem to be in a trial phase). Magneto was the first character that I truly learned in a FG, but he took a long time to master...nearly two years. Learning him made learning every other game practically cake, but that's not something you should jump into if you're only giving something a chance. Pick up Sheik. She's easy to learn, and you'll pubstomp casuals overnight.
You will most likely enjoy Melee if you can find the same caliber of players that are so plentiful in SSF4:AE. I'm not saying that the community is small, because it isn't. You just can't just walk into any arcade and play Melee like you can with other FGs.
Grinin
Smash Journeyman
^Good post. Also, if you're in the Woodlands you should come chill with the Houston smash scene.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Atomi hasn't been active since 11/30. Too bad.
Although I can't say I'd drive two hours to play either
Although I can't say I'd drive two hours to play either
Bones0
Smash Legend
I drive 2 hours to like every tourney.
I should probably just switch to Marvel... >_>
I should probably just switch to Marvel... >_>
Lanceinthepants
Smash Lord
6 man tournies that are held in people's apartments?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Well they are held in someone's basement and the last one had 12 people, but he's had like 30+ people before. Shoutouts to SypherPhoenix! lol
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Thanks for the info and the helpful tips, me and my friend are learning melee all over again the right. we had this game back in the day but we only played it casually because we never knew that it has this much depth and we both feel like we owe this game at least that. I'm trying to pick up as much as possible in 4 months training.
I have some questions but I can only think of one right now:
Is it required to L cancel every air move in a character or it's only matters on the longer recovery moves?
I also apologize if this the wrong place to post this.
I have some questions but I can only think of one right now:
Is it required to L cancel every air move in a character or it's only matters on the longer recovery moves?
I also apologize if this the wrong place to post this.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Depends on your level of play. If you want to do well in local tournies, you need to L-Cancel almost every aerial.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vckV2MJgBzo
That is the advanced how to play video. It is dated and I believe there is a new one in progress, but it definitely covers a lot.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230020
That's the general Q & A where you'd normally ask questions like the one you have.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but it is only required to l-cancel moves that are still "out" when you hit the ground. If you are still in the aerial animation and are hitting the ground, then it likely should be l-canceled.
Good luck, new players are always welcomed!
That is the advanced how to play video. It is dated and I believe there is a new one in progress, but it definitely covers a lot.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230020
That's the general Q & A where you'd normally ask questions like the one you have.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but it is only required to l-cancel moves that are still "out" when you hit the ground. If you are still in the aerial animation and are hitting the ground, then it likely should be l-canceled.
Good luck, new players are always welcomed!
voorhese
Smash Master
L-canceling;
Any time you CAN do it, you should. There are some times where you should opt to auto canceling it instead because of where you are/want to place your aerial. Autocanceling is when the move cancels itself and you essentially have the same landing animation as if you just jumped and landed with out putting a move out at all. Example; Double jump -> forward air with marth, after the move is complete (by a longshot) marth is in normal falling animation and lands like he never put a move out, that isn't auto canceling, but is very similar. Auto canceling actually can be done before the move is finished (animation wise).
here is fox's nair, and here is the frame data for it. Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
^ so what this is saying is that the move has a hitbox from frame 4-31, and can be auto canceled at the latest before the move comes out 1 frame b4 it's hitbox comes out (frame 3) or at the earliest after the hitbox comes out at frame 37.
The other time you wouldn't be L-canceling would be because you're playing Mr. Game&watch, and not l-canceling isn't a choice >_<
Any time you CAN do it, you should. There are some times where you should opt to auto canceling it instead because of where you are/want to place your aerial. Autocanceling is when the move cancels itself and you essentially have the same landing animation as if you just jumped and landed with out putting a move out at all. Example; Double jump -> forward air with marth, after the move is complete (by a longshot) marth is in normal falling animation and lands like he never put a move out, that isn't auto canceling, but is very similar. Auto canceling actually can be done before the move is finished (animation wise).
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
^ so what this is saying is that the move has a hitbox from frame 4-31, and can be auto canceled at the latest before the move comes out 1 frame b4 it's hitbox comes out (frame 3) or at the earliest after the hitbox comes out at frame 37.
The other time you wouldn't be L-canceling would be because you're playing Mr. Game&watch, and not l-canceling isn't a choice >_<
Jonas
Smash Champion
I believe Pikachu crouches low enough on the recovery frames of his back air that some characters can't grab him. If he doesn't l-cancel, people who shieldgrab right away are going to whiff their grab. That's the only example I can think of where it could be a better choice to avoid l-canceling.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I've been told that Peach's non-l-canceled fair can slip under a Marth grab. It's not something I'd advocate actually doing, though.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Same applies for Sheik off a fair.
Jonas
Smash Champion
Especially since you can just float cancel lol.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Bowser back air no l-cancel dodge the bess
As a former "semi professional" and old school top 10 Texas PR SSBM player who also happens to be capable of playing SF at a high level. I will tell you without a doubt that SSBM is harder to play competitively at the top level by leaps and bounds compared to the SF counter parts.
Street fighter takes no where near the amount of technical prowess Melee takes. In addition to your typical fighting game mix-ups, mind games, etc, Melee also takes extremely fast, precise mechanical skill. You also have a game that allows you to freely move across an entire map/platforms instead of being confined within simple game mechanics like you have in SF. Allowing you to truly appreciate the creativity this game allows once you're capable of mastering the movements.
In regards to you playing Melee. Where should you start? Firstly you should start with the mindset: "I'm completely terrible at this game." Because without a doubt you are. However, that's not a bad thing. Everyone has to start somewhere. I say this because I have seen literally dozens, upon dozens of people say they're good at this game, later I proceed to four stock them playing with one hand. This game takes practice. In order to fully appreciate the level of skill this game takes you will need to participate in high level competitions that feature the best players in the game and/or your state. Playing with friends of the same skill level will not help you improve outside of learning simple movements. You need to really taste how hard this game is by getting completely dominated by someone much better than you. So go to tournaments with top players. Afterwards, watch videos featuring top players.
Specifically the most important thing you will learn in my opinion is a SHFFL (Short Hop Fast Fall L-Cancel). Mastering this will allow you to pace around the map using aerial attacks. This does not come lightly though. You will see videos of players casually doing this, however it WILL take you hours, upon hours of practice to effectively use this technique. It could easily take you months to properly learn how to SHFFL. And that just getting your foot into the door.
To be honest this game is so hard to properly play most people just leave because they can't deal with it. Only the truly dedicated continue to stick with Melee and practice to become better. If that's you, congratulations. Good luck.
Just remember the best advice you will ever receive regarding the Smash community are these words: Do not play Brawl. Seriously, the game is trash. I repeat. Do not play Brawl.
Street fighter takes no where near the amount of technical prowess Melee takes. In addition to your typical fighting game mix-ups, mind games, etc, Melee also takes extremely fast, precise mechanical skill. You also have a game that allows you to freely move across an entire map/platforms instead of being confined within simple game mechanics like you have in SF. Allowing you to truly appreciate the creativity this game allows once you're capable of mastering the movements.
In regards to you playing Melee. Where should you start? Firstly you should start with the mindset: "I'm completely terrible at this game." Because without a doubt you are. However, that's not a bad thing. Everyone has to start somewhere. I say this because I have seen literally dozens, upon dozens of people say they're good at this game, later I proceed to four stock them playing with one hand. This game takes practice. In order to fully appreciate the level of skill this game takes you will need to participate in high level competitions that feature the best players in the game and/or your state. Playing with friends of the same skill level will not help you improve outside of learning simple movements. You need to really taste how hard this game is by getting completely dominated by someone much better than you. So go to tournaments with top players. Afterwards, watch videos featuring top players.
Specifically the most important thing you will learn in my opinion is a SHFFL (Short Hop Fast Fall L-Cancel). Mastering this will allow you to pace around the map using aerial attacks. This does not come lightly though. You will see videos of players casually doing this, however it WILL take you hours, upon hours of practice to effectively use this technique. It could easily take you months to properly learn how to SHFFL. And that just getting your foot into the door.
To be honest this game is so hard to properly play most people just leave because they can't deal with it. Only the truly dedicated continue to stick with Melee and practice to become better. If that's you, congratulations. Good luck.
Just remember the best advice you will ever receive regarding the Smash community are these words: Do not play Brawl. Seriously, the game is trash. I repeat. Do not play Brawl.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I don't think he even comes on the forums anymore, much less plays melee, Mr C.
Wow, didn't realize how old the thread was. It was at the bottom of page 1. Smashboards is a ghost town now lol.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
No it's not a ghost town lol
He just gave up on learning the game. Plenty of places are active, unless you had a bunch of threads open from like months ago lol
He just gave up on learning the game. Plenty of places are active, unless you had a bunch of threads open from like months ago lol
hey guys
wow, its been a while. it's hard to imagine that 4 months ago i was just starting to pick up this game. at that time, i promised all of you that id pick it up at least for half a year
first things first, don't worry! i havent been inactive. while i havent been able to make it to Purdue (im a broke college student), ive been working on my fundamentals nonstop since then -- watch out.
oh, and i have a new recording setup for my television, so ill be able to upload videos too in a week or so
hope to see you all soon, and until then
peace
wow, its been a while. it's hard to imagine that 4 months ago i was just starting to pick up this game. at that time, i promised all of you that id pick it up at least for half a year
first things first, don't worry! i havent been inactive. while i havent been able to make it to Purdue (im a broke college student), ive been working on my fundamentals nonstop since then -- watch out.
oh, and i have a new recording setup for my television, so ill be able to upload videos too in a week or so
hope to see you all soon, and until then
peace
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Oh sweet. You're still around. Genuinely interested in your progress, tbqh
Lanceinthepants
Smash Lord
Sickkkkkkkkkkk
KanyeRest
bair-condtioned nightmare
yoooo he's back! you should try and make it to some michigan tourneys bro
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
id say sheik is more ryu earn to hadouken and you basically mastered sheik lol
testing, what do you guys think of the quality / slow-mo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmzZvIXJA3o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmzZvIXJA3o
Revven
FrankerZ
That looked slick as hell.
Gea
Smash Master
Nice tech skill, good quality, slo-mo was silly. Edit: Is it just me or is the aspect ratio slightly off?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
yeah, it's definitely wrong. otherwise it's cool.
EthereaL
Smash Journeyman
Melee runs at 60FPS, how in God's name did you get that smooth of slow motion?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
How the **** did you get that slow mo quality
are you playing this on a PC or something?
are you playing this on a PC or something?
hey guys, thanks for the feedback, later this week ill put some actual gameplay up
yeah, its slightly off. when the video feeds to my computer, it auto-fits it to my monitor. havent figured out how to stop it lol
i got the slo-mo so smooth by messing around with some render settings; it was only recorded at 60FPS. playing on a gamecube
'
yeah, its slightly off. when the video feeds to my computer, it auto-fits it to my monitor. havent figured out how to stop it lol
i got the slo-mo so smooth by messing around with some render settings; it was only recorded at 60FPS. playing on a gamecube
'
Revven
FrankerZ
I hope you're planning to attend EVO and enter Melee. :D
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
Yoooooo Atomi sick to hear you are still playin. Evo will be sick. I'll be attending since I'mma visit my girlfriend who lives in Las Vegas. 2 Falcos w/ 1 Stone. Diggin the setup aside from the aspect ratio. Look forward to some cool vids homie.