ssbm: bias and help and stuff

[SonuvaBeach]

yeah puff is clearly easier to learn. She has plenty of her own challenges at the high level. But new players have the ability to reach mid level and then possibly high level much quicker with her due to not having master hard advanced techniques that the spacies do.

Sounds like what I said 2 pages ago.

and she's gay.

let the thread continue in circles now

 

[KrIsP!]

She gets pooped on at mid level though without a good mental game. Implying techskill takes years to master. Every new fox that walks in has **** down pat by their first tourney from practicing in their room.

Really though, everyone is putting points down on both sides, you just keep saying she's gay and easy while people respectfully disagree. Hardly full circle.

#1 reason people view Puff as lame is because no one actually watches from her perspective (because no one plays her). People pay attention to spacies when they're doing absurd combos, therefore spacies are broken. For the other 80% of Melee combos, people like to ignore that it's usually a spacie getting annihilated. Same sorta thing happens for Puff. They are watching their cool little Fox fly around the screen doing 2-3 hit links, and then boom, they watch as Puff does a 2-3 hit combo into rest for a stock. They weren't paying attention to all the work the Puff did to get that first hit while Fox flew around her, so they feel like she didn't earn it. This effect in general is why people tend to underrate their own character and inflate the brokenness of everyone else's.

 

[Divinokage]

yeah puff is clearly easier to learn. She has plenty of her own challenges at the high level. But new players have the ability to reach mid level and then possibly high level much quicker with her due to not having master hard advanced techniques that the spacies do.

Sounds like what I said 2 pages ago.

and she's gay.

let the thread continue in circles now

Where's your proof of this? I don't see any mid level Jiggs doing well at all.

 

[Gea]

To be fair, does anyone hear of any mid level players doing well unless they play a low tier and are known for that? Otherwise they are just another statistic in the results page.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

She gets pooped on at mid level though without a good mental game. Implying techskill takes years to master. Every new fox that walks in has **** down pat by their first tourney from practicing in their room.

Really though, everyone is putting points down on both sides, you just keep saying she's gay and easy while people respectfully disagree. Hardly full circle.

You're definitely right, I'm not laying down a ton of points other than what I did in my previous posts. The points are pretty obvious though to any sensible player IMO. The reason I'm not doing so is because no matter how you put it, it can be taken as if I am trying to take away from the puff mains. I'm not. But here are some points. I just think their character is easier to pick up and learn. Marth and sheik are definitely easier than spacies as well. They all have extremely hard things to master at high level...but puff's are still easier.

For example. To be a high level marth or sheik you have to be able to 0-death or close to consistently. This requires learning the CG, pivots, tipper ranges, u-tilt percentages, upair chains, illusion covers (jab, etc), and edgeguarding as marth. As sheik this requires good reaction times for techchasing, good reads, and good edgeguarding. As puff it requires one grab to bad DI. Ok, bad example, it requires one grab under a platform to missed tech or tech in place. Or one good read to get the rest.

As bones stated, aside from rest you don't need to learn many advanced techniques, just good weaving in the air and bairs. Yes, I realize there is more to it. But we are comparing relative difficulty of characters so generalizations have to be made and it is very subjective.

As puff you don't need hours of tech skill practice, which mr. puff main, takes much longer to actually get than I think you realize. But, let's say they have it. It isn't that the spacies need it, it is the fact that as a puff if you misspace something you take a hit or two for it, as a spacie you take a stock for spacing mistakes or a missed tech error (which jiggs rarely have to deal with). That is a major difference. Being able to just DI out often and reset the situation as puff is huge. You don't see 0-deaths on puff nearly as often as spacies, correct?

I have many more points, but I don't think this debate is fruitful. You're a puff main and will defend her to the end, which is understandable. Hungrybox is clearly one of the best players to ever play the game, but his falco is not good. Yes, I have played it and his puff. M2k's puff tho, almost beat hbox.

Where's your proof of this? I don't see any mid level Jiggs doing well at all.

Really Kage? Canada has Idea. What level is he? Michigan/OSU has Abu. Both are mid level and both do well. But as said above, how can a mid level player perform well, that would make them high level.

Again, my point is that puff is easier to get to the mid level due to an easier learning curve. Clearly, she is extremely hard to win with against high level players.

The difference between her and spacies is this. You have never touched smash before in your life hands on, but had watched 20+ hours of hbox vs everyone as well as mango/peepee vs everyone. You could be playing decently (still losing by a large margin), but executing her combo's and rest timings, reads etc, with puff inside of a couple hours or maybe 4-6 with puff. You wouldn't be able to do anything as spacies for much much longer. And even if you could, you'd get combo'd much harder for every small tech error you made along the way, hindering your ability to improve quickly. Many more 4 stocks and ****ty losses demoralizing, with less opportunities to practice said tech skill.

^ and that is my main point

I say she's gay because of a multitude of reasons. I don't like that she's easy to learn, but hey, it's great if it brings players in. I don't like that she isn't nearly as comboable if at all by nearly every character, whereas every other character is. I don't like that she plays by different rules. She reminds me of brawl, and that is my biggest dislike. But mostly, I repeatedly called her gay because people get angry about it. Which is funny, when she clearly is easier to learn and people pretend she isn't.

 

[KrIsP!]

Won't bother since you've already made it clear your we're not going to change each ohter's mind. I agree she's easier to pick up, she's not easier to play with though at mid level. Honestly, if she were so easy I wouldn't still be practicing things and instead just getting higher placings. I'm just gunna say, I misspace, I get usmashed, and it hurts.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Maybe our idea's of mid level are a bit different. I'm moreso saying you can get to mid-level quicker, allowing you to work on said things that make her difficult much sooner than a spacie.

Respect for being the one to realize/say we aren't going to change each other's minds. We won't. I'm not trying to take away from puff main's skill, they got it. Only two characters have that u-smash tho, and one of them is low tier . Sadly for puff mains, everyone alts fox.

 

[KrIsP!]

Sadly for puff mains, everyone alts fox.

Except Puff mains. We alt Falco cause we're super ****ing gay. I can admit it.

 

[t3h Icy]

The only good Puffs are Mango, HBox, Darc, and Vanz. Other Puffs never even make it out of Pools at anything big.

 

[clowsui]

Sliq is good too but he hasn't played in yearsss lol

 

[C.SDK]

The only good Puffs are Mango, HBox, Darc, and Vanz. Other Puffs never even make it out of Pools at anything big.

So I heard King was pretty good.

Spoiler

yes, I know that we're talking about active players >: (

 

[Prince_Abu]

Maybe our idea's of mid level are a bit different. I'm moreso saying you can get to mid-level quicker, allowing you to work on said things that make her difficult much sooner than a spacie.

Respect for being the one to realize/say we aren't going to change each other's minds. We won't. I'm not trying to take away from puff main's skill, they got it. Only two characters have that u-smash tho, and one of them is low tier . Sadly for puff mains, everyone alts fox.

tremor i can beat u with all my secondaries too
maybe the reason u cant get to mid lvl is cause ur just bad

 

[t3h Icy]

It's actually interesting how there are a ton of really good mid-level Puffs that aren't too far from making brackets at nationals, but none haven't been successful yet. Sliq, Meta, Idea, Velynn, Andale, Tekk, Abu, etc.

Raistlin was also pretty good. He got 9th at Genesis 1.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

It's pretty silly to give this guy so much attention just because he plays traditional fighting games. If he hadn't mentioned that, this thread would have died or been locked a long time ago.

That said, ****ting on a new player for the character they chose shows a distinct lack of class.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The interesting thing wasn't that he's played other fighting games, it's that he was influenced by the results of the EVO poll. It's more like the community allowing itself to remind itself that it has charge over it's own destiny, even if it's one person at a time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's actually interesting how there are a ton of really good mid-level Puffs that aren't too far from making brackets at nationals, but none haven't been successful yet. Sliq, Meta, Idea, Velynn, Andale, Tekk, Abu, etc.

Raistlin was also pretty good. He got 9th at Genesis 1.

Sliq was hella good back in the day. You can shut your ***** mouth.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

People who hate puff are like people who hate homosexuals

Lol, I agree

"I hate it because it's gay"

 

[Strong Badam]

andale also got 3rd at a huge SMYM

 

[-LzR-]

As a Puff player I feel bad for reading this thread. A new player gives a chance to this game and everyone is whining about his character of choice. I don't consider Puff really harder than other toptiers in this game. Seriously, you don't need to be a highlevel player to have techskill.

Techskill has no correlation to your skill, only how you implement it. I could go and practice 2 hours a day and master perfect shieldpressure, pillars, multishines and stuff and still be a ridiculously bad Fox/Falco.

And yes, Puff is much harder to combo than almost all of the cast, but she also dies so early it basically evens it out. Dying consistently at 60-70% to a Fox uthrow -> uair really isn't any gayer or anything than Puffs uthrow -> rest.

Though I agree with Bones that I watch videos from Puffs perspective, so whenever a Puff gets killed by Fox at 50% I see Fox being gay and dumb instead of the Puff when they rest as I just see a well placed killmove there.

All the ranting aside, haven't heard of Atomi for a while. Are there going to be any videos soon? As a Smasher who has tried several traditional fighters I am interested to see how things go for him.

 

[DrinkingFood]

puff is gay because

Spoiler

she's pink

and

Spoiler

pink is a gay color

 

[Beat!]

tremor i can beat u with all my secondaries too
maybe the reason u cant get to mid lvl is cause ur just bad

Shots

****ing

fired

 

[danny135]

haven't heard of Atomi for a while.

Maybe because they took over this thread to just argue about puff's sexuality and attack other people.

 

[King Funk]

Any person in this thread who is reacting negatively to Atomi's decision to main Puff should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Divinokage]

Well from reading the last parts, it proves enough already that no character is easier to learn if you want to be successful. At this point, you need to be smarter than the current top 50 players who are phenomenal to begin with.. GL guys. =) At this point, it's on the player himself because you have to go against players who have tons of experience with every matchup.. it's definitely a factor to how you should play your character.

 

[KanyeRest]

Well from reading the last parts, it proves enough already that no character is easier to learn if you want to be successful. At this point, you need to be smarter than the current top 50 players who are phenomenal to begin with.. GL guys. =) At this point, it's on the player himself because you have to go against players who have tons of experience with every matchup.. it's definitely a factor to how you should play your character.

the warrior spittin that truth

 

[-LzR-]

Wow that has to be one of the more awesome names around.

 

[Bieber]

my favorite thing in the world

is beating people that complain about puff


anyways puff requires a really specific set of skills, and if you naturally have them or can develop them then i agree that puff is the easiest character with which to reach mid level, but if you don't then she is actually a really hard character to get good with. i've seen several low level puffs that sort of flounder and don't know how to improve with their character. not having to learn tech skill is good on one hand, but on the other hand with puff you can't autopilot tech skill and approach at will like you can with spacies. with a character like falco, once you get your tech skill and execution down you'll almost certainly see results, but with puff that's not the case

 

[KanyeRest]

my favorite thing in the world

is beating people that complain about puff


anyways puff requires a really specific set of skills, and if you naturally have them or can develop them then i agree that puff is the easiest character with which to reach mid level, but if you don't then she is actually a really hard character to get good with. i've seen several low level puffs that sort of flounder and don't know how to improve with their character. not having to learn tech skill is good on one hand, but on the other hand with puff you can't autopilot tech skill and approach at will like you can with spacies. with a character like falco, once you get your tech skill and execution down you'll almost certainly see results, but with puff that's not the case

god why can't i hold all these good puffs
i love you guys

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Wow @ so many people complaining about Puff in 2012. Puff has been overrated for years.

It's actually interesting how there are a ton of really good mid-level Puffs that aren't too far from making brackets at nationals, but none haven't been successful yet. Sliq, Meta, Idea, Velynn, Andale, Tekk, Abu, etc.

Raistlin was also pretty good. He got 9th at Genesis 1.

Damn, no love for ya boy.

 

[EthereaL]

Basic tech skills:

Fast-falling.
OOS JC stuff.
L-cancelling.
Wavedashing / landing.
Spacing (literal spacing, not zoning interactions between players).
DI.

Puff has to do all of this.

I don't understand what the f(luff) you are talking about, even you Puff mains.

Edit:
Don't say that Puff gets punished less hard for her "missing tech skill" either, when she dies 30% sooner than any other top tier.

 

[Bones0]

I would disagree that she dies much sooner than spacies, especially if you're talking on average where they get gimped at sub-50% pretty frequently.

 

[ShrieK1295]

Yeah seriously.. fast fallers die at 0% to ledge guards, shines, and rests (ok you need like 20% here). Puff dies to fox fast, which other top tiers kill puff below 80 or 90??

 

[Jolteon]

How is it easy to play a character that isn't top tier?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah seriously.. fast fallers die at 0% to ledge guards, shines, and rests (ok you need like 20% here). Puff dies to fox fast, which other top tiers kill puff below 80 or 90??

I mean, she still dies fast. I just don't think you can compare how bad she gets punished to spacies or Falcon. Most characters can't compare to how hard they get destroyed per hit either though, so that's no basis for saying Puff is easy. Marth, Falcon, and Doc can all kill her below 80% out of throws.

 

[Deleted member]

Puff has been overrated for years.

yup.

this forum breeds misinformation.

 

[Divinokage]

^ It also keeps a lot of information secret. How can you expect for people to know things they can't conceive?

 

[Captain Smuckers]

Inb4 conspiracy theories

 

[ShroudedOne]

yup.

this forum breeds misinformation.

Are you agreeing with him, or using his post as an example for yours?

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Puff players are taking our jobs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff is good.

Atomi is a nice guy with drive.

Haters are gonna hate one way or the other.

People complaining about Puff in 2012 are kind of dumb because there's only one tournament threat level Puff player right now.