Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[T-block]

yeah...i'm sure if it were just hitting a certain spot on the ledge, we would have noticed a pattern by now

kith, that doesn't explain why it happens on ps1

any other stages where this has happened to you guys btw? i can't think of any

 

[Steeler]

i can't think of any. perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the ledge is on a thin platform that juts out? so, like, right below where the grabbable ledge is, there is no stage or wall or anything.

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, the only ones this has happened to me on are Lylat and Stadium 1.

 

[Kith]

yeah...i'm sure if it were just hitting a certain spot on the ledge, we would have noticed a pattern by now

kith, that doesn't explain why it happens on ps1

any other stages where this has happened to you guys btw? i can't think of any

You're right, I didn't think about that....I don't know why it happens, but I don't think we get invincibility from it. Which makes me kinda not want to research it lol.

 

[Ishiey]

I know I'm kinda late to the party, but I do this on purpose with Wolf a lot and have had it happen quite a few times with Squirtle (on Lylat as well as SV, FD, and BF iirc). For Wolf, it happens at two main spots. I THINK this is because Wolf's traveling animation during his sideB takes up two frames, meaning that he'll actually "exist" at two different spots throughout the sideB. Only when you're at one of these spots (hence, only when you're at one of two specific distances/angles) are you able to pull this off.

I don't know exactly how it works with Squirtle, but Wolves in general tell people to aim a bit above the ledge if they want to "lightstep". The angle of Wolf's sideB is probably something around 30 degrees, so maybe try aiming to hit a bit abovethe ledge at that angle? There's probably a certain part where, if you start your upB from there, you should get consistent results.

If you buffer a jump after hitting the ledge (generally the best idea), you can either attempt to land on a platform or get back to center stage from above (Wolf can shine away opponents from below, Squirtle can use dair because it's amazing) or jump backwards to edgeguard opponents with a bair. You'll still have the extra recovery lag when you land onstage, so keep that in mind. There's no invincibility either, all you do is get your second jump back... so just make sure you don't get read or you could be in for some trouble :x Squirtle can probably fair right away and still recover to the ledge though, or maybe even land onstage because of how he pulls up his legs, which would be AMAZING.

Basically, look into this for Squirtle, at the least it'll be a useful trick to pull out every once-in-a-while

 

[Buuda]

Thank you, I love you. ^
Someone who understands! XD lol

Wait... but you've done this with Squirtle on SV, BF, AND FD?

 

[T-block]

Quick question: has this ever happened to anyone without using Waterfall? I think I remember having it happen with just the double jump.

I'm pretty sure Squirtle's case is different from Wolf's, but I do see some use for this now.

 

[Zigsta]

Hmm, I think I've done it without using Waterfall, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[CoonTail]

Quick question: has this ever happened to anyone without using Waterfall? I think I remember having it happen with just the double jump.

I'm pretty sure Squirtle's case is different from Wolf's, but I do see some use for this now.

Yea its happened to me alot of times during my double jump as I attempt to grab the edge.....Ive only seen this happen on lylat RC and ps1 like earlier stated. Never had it happen with zard or ivy but the upside is always that you get your double jump and up-b back. My only problem is I always think I just grabbed the edge so I dont react fast enough leaving me far enough down to get edgehogged.

 

[Ishiey]

Yep, I'm pretty sure that I've had it occur on all of those stages with Squirtle, although I can't really tell when it's going to happen :/

I'm not sure if it's ever happened without Waterfall, but I feel like I have had it happen before with a double jump like T-Block and Ice **** said... idk... :x Brawl is weird haha

 

[Steeler]

actually, i usually get it without waterfalling.

 

[Buuda]

actually, i usually get it without waterfalling.

That's really interesting. If someone could more or less "master" this, we could jump-reset repeatedly like crazy, and it wouldn't even mess up our fatigue. If we know how to work this (AT-to-be?) in our favor, we can use that super-quick drop down to our advantage, seeing as how we're perfectly (well, mostly) safe by regaining our second jump and recovery. I've personally never had it happen with a second jump. Can someone try to learn to intentionally trigger this, and at least get it down enough to make a video so we can all see where exactly the ledge has to be hit? From what was said earlier, it sounds like it is actually where we hit the stage, not neccesarily when or how. If someone could take the time to do that, you will be greatly envied and there will be much rejoicing.

P.s. I would do it, but I don't even have an SD card or capture card. D:

 

[T-block]

My new theory is that we actually buffer a drop before we grab the edge. Nothing to back that up yet though.

Read my response in the Socratic Discussion thread.

 

[Ishiey]

actually, i usually get it without waterfalling.

Interesting... but if it's easier without using upB, that's even better ;D

Idk about your theory T-Block, it might be different for Squirtle, but for Wolf/Falco/Fox it happens regardless of button inputs during the sideB... Let us know how the testing goes.

 

[T-block]

I think it's pretty clear it's a different phenomenon, so it could be anything. It looks like it's not the Waterfall that's causing it, while Wolf has to side-b to make it happen, right?

 

[Ishiey]

Sorry for the late response x_x Idk, I'd assume that there are at least some similarities though. I once cancelled Wolf's sideB and still got the effect, so maybe you just need to be moving towards a certain spot on the ledge at a high enough aerial speed?

I don't know lol, someone needs to do testing on this. I'll keep my mouth shut until there are results, and just say that if you can do it reliably there will be benefits

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm gonna work on the Hydrojab right now. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[CoonTail]

So I finally figured out the trick to magik's hydrogimp.....as you pummel your opponent you can hold forward slightly without f-throwing which allows you to just have to input jump to get the hydrogimp.

Magik deffinitly told me this and I just didn't get it but I figured I could post it here in case anyone else was interested.

Also when forward hydroplaning does everyone more or less claw it because Ive started to use the portion of my palm right below my thumb and it's working out real well

 

[Buuda]

So I finally figured out the trick to magik's hydrogimp.....as you pummel your opponent you can hold forward slightly without f-throwing which allows you to just have to input jump to get the hydrogimp.

Magik deffinitly told me this and I just didn't get it but I figured I could post it here in case anyone else was interested.

Also when forward hydroplaning does everyone more or less claw it because Ive started to use the portion of my palm right below my thumb and it's working out real well

Elaborate on the Hydrogimp plz? Sounds cool.

Oh, and I NEVER bear-claw. Not for Forward U-Smash hydroplane, if that's what you're referring to. I don't see the point in using the C-stick for that; it just makes it trickier, imo.

 

[Magik0722]

So I finally figured out the trick to magik's hydrogimp.....as you pummel your opponent you can hold forward slightly without f-throwing which allows you to just have to input jump to get the hydrogimp.

Magik deffinitly told me this and I just didn't get it but I figured I could post it here in case anyone else was interested.

Also when forward hydroplaning does everyone more or less claw it because Ive started to use the portion of my palm right below my thumb and it's working out real well

I set zL to jump in order to forward hydroplane. Its just one of the benefits of being part of the glorious Classic Controller Master Race.

 

[CoonTail]

Elaborate on the Hydrogimp plz? Sounds cool.

Oh, and I NEVER bear-claw. Not for Forward U-Smash hydroplane, if that's what you're referring to. I don't see the point in using the C-stick for that; it just makes it trickier, imo.

The hydrogimp is where you perform a hydrograb that pushes you and your opponent to the edge. During the grab you pummel so that your pummeling your opponent at the edge. At low percentages the grab will break resulting in you and your opponent falling through the edge, yes you both fall through the edge. If you hold forward and tap jump youll footstool your opponent resulting most of the time in a gimp on characters with poor vertical recovery. Read my post again from where I talk about the pummeling for a better idea on how to make sure you land the footstool

As far as forward hydroplaning goes....Im an ex melee vet and I c-stick everything so forward hydroplaning with the c-stick is easy I just hate clawing I have huge hands so I use the inside of my palm because my hands are so big.

I set zL to jump in order to forward hydroplane. Its just one of the benefits of being part of the glorious Classic Controller Master Race.

Hahaha the glorious Classic Controller Master Race thats pretty awesome magik, but I play with the GC controller and I altered the crap out of my controls L is grab Z is the b button and X is the A button. But thanks for all the help magik man that tactic is dirrttyyy

 

[T-block]

Forward hydroplane shouldn't be that hard... what inputs are you using? I only use analog stick + A to do mine.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

yeah i use default controls and just analog/A button for forward hydroplaning

(i can do it because of the MAD TECH SKILLZ i have from playing bowser in melee)

 

[Buuda]

Yeah for Forward Hydroplane I use Y+Upsmash. (Shift analog backwards to up real quick-like).

And what's with this business about buffering a drop? I mean, how would you even do that? lol

Oh, and I gots to tries Hydrogimp lol.

One more thing- what do we do about getting grab-released? It seems that a LOT of characters get it on Squirtle pretty consistently, ruining his awesomeness and pwn matchups. Example:

Squirtle-Marth: 50-50? Later, Squirtle-Marth: 0-100 D:

 

[CoonTail]

One more thing- what do we do about getting grab-released? It seems that a LOT of characters get it on Squirtle pretty consistently, ruining his awesomeness and pwn matchups. Example:

Squirtle-Marth: 50-50? Later, Squirtle-Marth: 0-100 D:

You platform camp and play a really good spacing game with the correct moves.....Marth is prob the worst when it comes to Squirtle's grab release because he can get a d-air spike or a free f-smash tipper which are straight horror stories.....Yoshi is pretty ugly too.

You honestly have to try and make sure you stay away from the flat levels without platforms and just really manage your spacing.....Ive managed to beat quite a few Marths by getting some early % on them and platform camping forcing them to become aerial and you can beat them to the ground and rack some percent....rinse and repeat.

It makes playing Squirtle a lot different because of Squirtle being such a great aggro character and your being forced to play him very patiently and campy but if you don't the grab releases just result in splattered turtle on the bottom of FD.

 

[Buuda]

Thanks, brah. (@Ice_Coon)

Has anyone done testing on the Waterfall-reset? I would, but I don't have a capture or SD card so I wouldn't be able to upload results. =\

 

[T-block]

yeah don't get grabbed...that's all you can do

the same waterfall reset you were talking about before? you don't need to upload vids to get results...

 

[Kith]

Yeah for Forward Hydroplane I use Y+Upsmash. (Shift analog backwards to up real quick-like).

And what's with this business about buffering a drop? I mean, how would you even do that? lol

Oh, and I gots to tries Hydrogimp lol.

One more thing- what do we do about getting grab-released? It seems that a LOT of characters get it on Squirtle pretty consistently, ruining his awesomeness and pwn matchups. Example:

Squirtle-Marth: 50-50? Later, Squirtle-Marth: 0-100 D:

if you want, go ahead and take a look on my youtube channel. I have some matches uploaded against Chaz (one of the best marths out there)

 

[Buuda]

@ T-Block- True dat. I'm just too lazy/ busy.

@Kith- I may just do that, good sir. Thank ye.

 

[humble]

Alright while my squirtle is nothing to write home about, I was messing around with him against snake. Well I started jab walking snake, and I decided to experiment with it. While I was messing around, I discovered that uptilt can be followed up with a footstool, then a fast falled sourspot bair to start a jab walk. Works from 0-30% after which the bair won't lead into the jabs. Though it works better at low percent because if they are higher percent they can footstool you. Not sure if it's guarenteed, could someone test?

 

[T-block]

i believe you are describing the SAVIOR COMBOOOO (except savior combo is another u-tilt>footstool after the jab reset)

it's not guaranteed, but that doesn't mean it won't work once in a while

 

[typh]

if you charge up a water gun right up to near completion and cancel before it fully charges you can use it to b-reverse in midair and it'll fully charge immediately, which cancels it and then you can instantly do anything for ExTrEmE sQuIrTlE mInDgAmEs

does anyone do this

 

[CoonTail]

Nah haven't really tried that typh sounds pretty quality tho I'll deff give it a shot

 

[Buuda]

if you charge up a water gun right up to near completion and cancel before it fully charges you can use it to b-reverse in midair and it'll fully charge immediately, which cancels it and then you can instantly do anything for ExTrEmE sQuIrTlE mInDgAmEs

does anyone do this

Waitlolwut?

Explain further, good sir.

Are you basically saying you use Water Gun's wave bounce to pull janky stuff like.... Wave-bounce F-air? Lol that would be sooooo legit.

 

[Steeler]

yeah

it's really too bad you can't cancel it at any point without airdodging like diddy's popgun.

 

[T-block]

Wow I've never thought of that... definitely something to try when I get access to a Wii again <3

 

[humble]

What do you use squirtles Dsmash for?

 

[Steeler]

shenanigans

 

[Zigsta]

I only use dsmash on the ledge when an opponent is trying to recover. Time it right, and you eat their jump and make it impossible for them to recover. It's pretty handy against characters like Marth, Squirtle, Fox, Falco, etc.

All credit goes to Toby.

 

[T-block]

Buuda, your post has been moved to Socratic discussion.

I wish d-smash semi-spiked =( The angle is still too high to be used like that very effectively imo... works once in a while, but it's not something I'd rely on.