Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Daftatt]

It's not a pivot grab. A pivot grab has to be out of a dash. When dashing, there is a window where you can turn around (this is why dash dancing is possible.) When you turn around, there is an even smaller frame window where you are in the neutral position. A pivot grab is when you grab during that frame window. In Brawl/PM, you can cancel your turnaround animation with a grab. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to, or what it's called. Perhaps just a turn around grab.

What I'm talking about is shellshifting into a jump canceled grab, but jumping before you receive momentum in the opposite direction. Instead of interrupting the shellshift with just a grab, you jump and then grab. It's a minute difference in terms of inputs, but the JC gives you more momentum by an order of half a magnitude. Not to mention you get all the perks of a JC grab.

So yes, it is a hydroplane, but just a small one.



Yes, it's a fancy pivot grab. But TAHG sounds so much cooler than RHG! RHG doesn't even resemble an actual word.

Yo, I'm settling this. We have hydrograb, it's name is hydrograb, because you're hydroplaning a grab. We have pivot grab, where you run, then during your turnaround animation you input a grab the opposite direction you were facing, these typically have disjointed grab boxes.

Then, because squirtle, you can jumpcancel a slingjump into a standing grab, it's a little better distance and it's not a pivot grab because jump cancelling slingjump makes your turn around. In the past I have referred to this as a sling-grab. However because it's actually not a pivot grab the grab range is smaller, perhaps to the point of being not as useful. You can also try and pivot grab this movement thus facing forwards while grabbing with a great hitbox, it's situational but definitely an option for mixup, considering if you were to actually land this grab your opponent would be in the direction of your movement and you would probably get hit before you could grab.

BTW you don't abbreviate things based on the ability to pronounce the abbreviation, you abbreviate them to remain taxonomically correct. So TAHG is out, remember, turnaround is actually called shellshift. So it actually would be called reverse hydroplane grab.

 

[Sir Skaro]

BTW you don't abbreviate things based on the ability to pronounce the abbreviation, you abbreviate them to remain taxonomically correct. So TAHG is out, remember, turnaround is actually called shellshift. So it actually would be called reverse hydroplane grab.

If a Squirtle's turnaround "is actually called a shellshift", then

Given:
turnaround = shellshift
TAHG = Turn Around Hydroplane Grab
RHG = Reverse Hydroplane Grab
"you don't abbreviate things based on the ability to pronounce the abbreviation, you abbreviate them to remain taxonomically correct"

Conclusion:
TAHF >= RHG

Proof:
Since Squirtle is facing the opposite direction when doing a "RHG", a shellshift is involved.

The inputs required to do a "RHG" are as follows: run -> shellshift -> jump (before receiving new momentum) -> standing grab via JC grab
or
turnaround -> jump -> standing grab; since turnaround == shellshift

A turnaround is the first action in the series of inputs.
Therefore, classifying this tech under a turnaround is correct.

HG == HG; reflective law

Reverse < Turn Around; Turn Around is more descriptive and more "taxonomically correct" than reverse, since reverse can be mistaken to describe either the momentum of the grabbox.

It is preferred that acronyms spell something pronounceable.

Therefore, TAHG is not out and is a more desirable name.

 

[~Dad~]

I think I hate the Squirtle boards now.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I do like TAHG over RHG, and they both mean the same thing so its not a big deal anyway. Also, where would you guys place squirtle on the tier list. It doesn't have to be an exact number but a general placement. Highlight his strengths and weaknesses for reason for the placement.

 

[PlateProp]

If a Squirtle's turnaround "is actually called a shellshift", then

Given:
turnaround = shellshift
TAHG = Turn Around Hydroplane Grab
RHG = Reverse Hydroplane Grab
"you don't abbreviate things based on the ability to pronounce the abbreviation, you abbreviate them to remain taxonomically correct"

Conclusion:
TAHF >= RHG

Proof:
Since Squirtle is facing the opposite direction when doing a "RHG", a shellshift is involved.

The inputs required to do a "RHG" are as follows: run -> shellshift -> jump (before receiving new momentum) -> standing grab via JC grab
or
turnaround -> jump -> standing grab; since turnaround == shellshift

A turnaround is the first action in the series of inputs.
Therefore, classifying this tech under a turnaround is correct.

HG == HG; reflective law

Reverse < Turn Around; Turn Around is more descriptive and more "taxonomically correct" than reverse, since reverse can be mistaken to describe either the momentum of the grabbox.

It is preferred that acronyms spell something pronounceable.

Therefore, TAHG is not out and is a more desirable name.

RHG is actually more appropriate, it stays in line with RHUS. By your logic, we should call RHUS a TACUS which is untrue.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Not necessarily. It would technically be be a TAHUS, since the turnaround isn't canceled. Who coined TACUS, anyway? It doesn't really matter to me, but I'd much prefer to call it TAHG. I also rather like RHUS.

At this point we are just splitting hairs. It doesn't matter too much. At the end of the day we all know what we are talking about, and it's most likely not going to find it's way into main-stream commentary. The commentator would have to explain what's going on anyway if the stream had a large audience.

Food for Thought: There isn't really a set direction that "hydroplane" implies. Has anyone set up a definition for "hydroplane"? What does it mean to reverse a hydroplane if there is no set direction for it by definition? It sounds like you are reversing a hydroplane while/right before it is being performed, like a b-reversal. These are the questions that should be getting answered. Where are we getting our standards?

EDIT: It would make more sense to call them backward hydroplane and forward hydroplane, depending on which way Squirtle is facing. So a normal JC upsmash hydroplane would be like a FHUS, and a RHUS would be a BHUS.

 

[Daftatt]

Yo, I'm settling this. We have hydrograb, it's name is hydrograb, because you're hydroplaning a grab. We have pivot grab, where you run, then during your turnaround animation you input a grab the opposite direction you were facing, these typically have disjointed grab boxes.

Then, because squirtle, you can jumpcancel a slingjump into a standing grab, it's a little better distance and it's not a pivot grab because jump cancelling slingjump makes your turn around. In the past I have referred to this as a sling-grab. However because it's actually not a pivot grab the grab range is smaller, perhaps to the point of being not as useful. You can also try and pivot grab this movement thus facing forwards while grabbing with a great hitbox, it's situational but definitely an option for mixup, considering if you were to actually land this grab your opponent would be in the direction of your movement and you would probably get hit before you could grab.

BTW you don't abbreviate things based on the ability to pronounce the abbreviation, you abbreviate them to remain taxonomically correct. So TAHG is out, remember, turnaround is actually called shellshift. So it actually would be called reverse hydroplane grab.

BRO... JUST TRUST ME ON THIS.
We had to go through too much crap just to get all of this tech straightened out. The boards don't need this anymore.
Hydroplane: Using certain frames of shellshift to cancel into a grounded attack and slide a significant distance, this includes jump cancels out of shellshift such as up-smash and grab (this was my original definition, to include hydrograb and Reverse hydroplane up-smash I added in the part about jump cancelling).

There isn't really a set direction that "hydroplane" implies. Has anyone set up a definition for "hydroplane"? What does it mean to reverse a hydroplane if there is no set direction for it by definition? It sounds like you are reversing the hydroplane while/right before it is being performed, like a b-reversal. These are the questions that should be getting answered. Where are we getting our standards?

The reverse, along with techs that employ the word "forward", refer to the direction that squirtle is facing as he slides in relation to the direction of his movement vector. Forward Hydroplane F-smash implies that squirtle is facing towards the direction he is travelling.

Reverse Hydroplane Up-smash is technically a jump cancel. And we ended up calling it Reverse Hydroplane Up-smash, is because there is already a universal mechanic in the game that is called reverse up-smash (sometime's brawl/PM people call it RAR cancelled up-smash) where you run into your turnaround animation and JC up-smash. So given our definition of hydroplane, we called it RHUS, reverse hydroplane Up-smash.

Now this Slingjump JC thing would kind of exist in the same input tree at RHUS wouldnt it, it's juts a different ending move, grab. So Reverse Hydroplane Grab, or RHG is, in following all the rules we outlined for all of his other tech, is correct.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Also, where would you guys place squirtle on the tier list. It doesn't have to be an exact number but a general placement. Highlight his strengths and weaknesses for reason for the placement.

The following is just my opinion.

I don't think Squirtle is top tier, but he might be top-mid. It is a common viewpoint that Fox, Falco, Sonic, Pit, and Mewtwo (and maybe Samus and Pikachu. Personally I think Meta Knight is up there too) are top tier right now. At least, this is the view point of top players like Mew2king and ESAM. What I think is stopping Squirtle from breaking into that top crowd is his movement. He is alarming fast and mobile, almost like being able to be omnipresent like Falco due to lasers, but his movement just isn't... crisp. Also his tool kit is a bit wonky and his tech ceiling is through the roof (kinda like Luigi and Yoshi, respectively). I know that's sort of a John, but it's also one of the reasons Yoshi is low tier in Melee.

Squirtle definitely has the tools to compete, but he's not going to have his own bandwagon any time soon. This is all just my opinion though.

 

[Player -0]

Depending on the type of armor (light, medium, heavy, knockback, or super), it behaves differently.

Light/Medium/Heavy armor cancel all knockback (not hitstun, however. But you can't SDI this hitstun) based on the amount of knockback received. When the amount of knockback exceeds the armor's protection, you receive knockback.
Example: Squirtle fsmash, Bowser downsmash, Donkey Kong dash attack, Wario side-b

Knockback armor breaks at a certain amount of knockback (as the name suggests), but when this is broken you don't receive knockback (unless the knockback is massive. Like getting Warlock punched at 150%).
Example: Yoshi's double jump

Super armor doesn't break.
Example: Fully charged Ike neutral B.

If anything here is incorrect, it's the knockback armor. But I'm fairly certain most of it is correct.

Yoshi's DJ is knockback subtraction armor or some fancy name. Basically it reduces the knockback of the attack a LOT while Yoshi is DJing. This is one of the reasons Yoshi's DJ gets stuffed (will stop moving pretty much) by a Fair at later percents and he'll power through at earlier percents.

I'm not sure if Wario's Side-B has armor, I'ma check that out later.

A better example of knockback armor is Ike's eruption that's not fully charged. Your definition is also wrong, you're describing Yoshi's DJ armor but still somewhat incorrect. If you get Snake in Brawl and then use Yoshi's Dair on him while he's using cypher (Up-B) he'll keep going right through it but if you use a strong move like Yoshi's F-Smash or Fair he'll take the knockback.

Imagine someone holding up a shield and another person with a sword. If the person with the sword began slashing the shield the shield might get damaged (percent in smash) but overall the shield wouldn't go anywhere. If the person had a giant hammer and smacked the shield then the shield would go flying (knockback in smash).

The best of similes.

 

[Daftatt]

The following is just my opinion.

I don't think Squirtle is top tier, but he might be top-mid. It is a common viewpoint that Fox, Falco, Sonic, Pit, and Mewtwo (and maybe Samus and Pikachu. Personally I think Meta Knight is up there too) are top tier right now. At least, this is the view point of top players like Mew2king and ESAM. What I think is stopping Squirtle from breaking into that top crowd is his movement. He is alarming fast and mobile, almost like being able to be omnipresent like Falco due to lasers, but his movement just isn't... crisp. Also his tool kit is a bit wonky and his tech ceiling is through the roof (kinda like Luigi and Yoshi, respectively). I know that's sort of a John, but it's also one of the reasons Yoshi is low tier in Melee.

Squirtle definitely has the tools to compete, but he's not going to have his own bandwagon any time soon. This is all just my opinion though.

WHAT TIER LIST!? There is no tier list! The game cannot have a tier list that is anywhere near accurate without statistical data over a long stretch of time, like 5 years minimum! For the first 6 years of melee characters in the tier list shot around all over the place, and that game wasn't being updated every year! I'm going to make a FAQ Sticky for this forum that officially disclaimers that all discussion of squirtle's placement on the tier list is not only statistically baseless, but also subject to sub-annual change. Also it's going to have a definitive and rigorous guide to his AT syntax so we can never have an argument about AT structure anywhere but the FAQ thread.

 

[JayMan-X]

The following is just my opinion.

I don't think Squirtle is top tier, but he might be top-mid. It is a common viewpoint that Fox, Falco, Sonic, Pit, and Mewtwo (and maybe Samus and Pikachu. Personally I think Meta Knight is up there too) are top tier right now. At least, this is the view point of top players like Mew2king and ESAM. What I think is stopping Squirtle from breaking into that top crowd is his movement. He is alarming fast and mobile, almost like being able to be omnipresent like Falco due to lasers, but his movement just isn't... crisp. Also his tool kit is a bit wonky and his tech ceiling is through the roof (kinda like Luigi and Yoshi, respectively). I know that's sort of a John, but it's also one of the reasons Yoshi is low tier in Melee.

Squirtle definitely has the tools to compete, but he's not going to have his own bandwagon any time soon. This is all just my opinion though.

Squirtle's movement is pretty good, but he doesn't have things like lasers and fireballs that all the other tops do. Because he cant do damage at a distance, hes really has no business being too far away from people.

I think Squirtle is probably close to mid-tier, close to CFalcon but maybe a few spots above or below. I feel like his biggest weaknesses are that his grab game feels pretty lacking up until down throw starts to kill, and he seems like he has trouble vs chars with disjoints and moves like sexkicks.

 

[Player -0]

I find it frustrating when I Up Throw or F-Throw and just get naired. More of a problem with Up-Throw but srs. Let me actually combo from Up-Throw.

 

[Daftatt]

I feel like his biggest weaknesses are that his grab game feels pretty lacking up until down throw starts to kill.

Once you start having higher tech movement and can max length hydrograb reliably his grab game becomes one of the best in the game. In fact, even simple quickshifting at the ledge, quickshifting being where you cancel a shellshift with dash back in the direction off the SS and you just SS in place, can bait most opponents into throwing out an attack or approaching to force an edgeguard, then you can freaking hydrograb across half of FD!

 

[Sir Skaro]

Hydroplane: Using certain frames of shellshift to cancel into a grounded attack and slide a significant distance, this includes jump cancels out of shellshift such as up-smash and grab (this was my original definition, to include hydrograb and Reverse hydroplane up-smash I added in the part about jump canceling).

...there is already a universal mechanic in the game that is called reverse up-smash (sometime's brawl/PM people call it RAR cancelled up-smash) where you run into your turnaround animation and JC up-smash.

I personally think that backward/forward hydroplane is:
more descriptive
fits the definitions above, and
makes for easier abbreviations
FHUS = Forwards Hydroplane Up Smash
BHUS or TAHUS = Backwards Hydroplane Up Smash or Turnaround Hydroplane Up Smash
FHDS = Forwards Hydroplane Down Smash
BHDS = Backwards Hydroplane Down Smash
FHFS = Forward Hydroplane Forward Smash
BHFS = Backwards Hydroplane Forward Smash
FHG = Forward Hydroplane Grab
BHG or TAHG = Backwards Hydroplane Grab or Turnaround Hydroplane Grab

These terms seem to make it easier to formulate accurate, descriptive names and seem to be more accommodating to all this wonky tech. For example right now we don't have a name for a Hydroplane Forward Smash, we simply call it that. But which way is Squirtle facing? Sure they aren't super technical, but they don't have to be. What's important is that they are easy to understand.

You seem... adamant about keeping your acronyms, though. So I'll just agree to disagree. Nothing is official or definitive so I'll use my terms and you can use yours, and at the end of the day we can understand each other, which is what matters if we want to help each other to improve.

One unit, One squad. Squirtle Squad.

 

[JCOnyx]

That's how I was going about it, except I was only abbreviating forward facing (so FFHFS) since the most commonly used techs at the time were all backwards facing except for the jump canceled ones and HydroJab. The HydroCrawl tech was just being explored and I wanted people to realize I was talking about an HFS out of a HydroCrawl.

Hell, I don't even know if we want to call it HydroCrawling anymore. I've pretty much given up naming Squirtle tech since there are about 3-4 things that you can do to accomplish practically the same thing but with slight differences.

I'd rather just call everything Squirtle stuff from this point on.

Except for RHUS, I'm going to be calling that the Russel from now on.

 

[PlateProp]

I personally think that backward/forward hydroplane is:
more descriptive
fits the definitions above, and
makes for easier abbreviations
FHUS = Forwards Hydroplane Up Smash
BHUS or TAHUS = Backwards Hydroplane Up Smash or Turnaround Hydroplane Up Smash
FHDS = Forwards Hydroplane Down Smash
BHDS = Backwards Hydroplane Down Smash
FHFS = Forward Hydroplane Forward Smash
BHFS = Backwards Hydroplane Forward Smash
FHG = Forward Hydroplane Grab
BHG or TAHG = Backwards Hydroplane Grab or Turnaround Hydroplane Grab

These terms seem to make it easier to formulate accurate, descriptive names and seem to be more accommodating to all this wonky tech. For example right now we don't have a name for a Hydroplane Forward Smash, we simply call it that. But which way is Squirtle facing? Sure they aren't super technical, but they don't have to be. What's important is that they are easy to understand.

You seem... adamant about keeping your acronyms, though. So I'll just agree to disagree. Nothing is official or definitive so I'll use my terms and you can use yours, and at the end of the day we can understand each other, which is what matters if we want to help each other to improve.

One unit, One squad. Squirtle Squad.

...But it's a hydro f smash.

And when you do it in the direction you hydroplane in, it's a forward hydro f smash.

We hardly even use acronyms anywhere but the google hangout though. Everyone here's pretty good about spelling it out. But a naming system has already been established, and we should stick to it. Otherwise the problem we're having right now will just continue to occur.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

WHAT TIER LIST!? There is no tier list! The game cannot have a tier list that is anywhere near accurate without statistical data over a long stretch of time, like 5 years minimum! For the first 6 years of melee characters in the tier list shot around all over the place, and that game wasn't being updated every year!

I think it is healthy to have a tier list for the current project m results, even if the tier list will change. Project m as a game itself will change so its nice to have a tier list for each version of the game. They won't be nerfing tethers and other strong recoveries for a reason. The PMBR realized that the top characters all had amazing recoveries and to balance it, they will nerf those characters. So it's nice to have a tier list for each section of PM, since it is bound to change anyway.

 

[Daftatt]

One unit, One squad. Squirtle Squad.

One Definition, One Term, Squirtle Squad.

I think it is healthy to have a tier list for the current project m results, even if the tier list will change. Project m as a game itself will change so its nice to have a tier list for each version of the game. They won't be nerfing tethers and other strong recoveries for a reason. The PMBR realized that the top characters all had amazing recoveries and to balance it, they will nerf those characters. So it's nice to have a tier list for each section of PM, since it is bound to change anyway.

If they're nerfing characters the P:M thinks are crazy good/broken then squirtle definitely fits that category going into 3.5.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I don't think that squirtle needs to be nerfed; he's pretty balanced as it is.
And how do people think fox is top tier. His lasers suck, his shine no longer has invincibility, the PMBR made a lot of stages higher in 3.0, and he gets zero to deathed by EVERYONE. He may be top 10 in the game but definitely not top tier.

 

[Player -0]

I don't think that squirtle needs to be nerfed; he's pretty balanced as it is.
And how do people think fox is top tier. His lasers suck, his shine no longer has invincibility, the PMBR made a lot of stages higher in 3.0, and he gets zero to deathed by EVERYONE. He may be top 10 in the game but definitely not top tier.

His lasers still serve the same purpose, they can camp out slower characters for free percent. It just takes longer for Fox to do this now, not that it matters because his speed and pressure is insane. Shine not having invincibility is very situational, pretty much space better if you're relying on 1 frame of invincibility. Stages were made higher to correspond with the melee stages ceiling heights. He also zero deaths everyone and can create more opportunities to do so than the opposing character typically.


Squirtle's Down Smash is pretty broke as is. I'd love to see, if it were changed, a speed up in the animation so there are less hitboxes out (would fix the problem of Squirtle covering every option). Just make it overall faster so it can be used quickly.

 

[~Dad~]

Update: I hate everything.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

How does Squirtle do vs Wario & ZSS & Marth? I'm trying to debate whether Squirtle is worth learning proficiently enough in order to have those matchups in his favor if it's worth it. Does he beat any of those characters?

 

[PlateProp]

How does Squirtle do vs Wario & ZSS & Marth? I'm trying to debate whether Squirtle is worth learning proficiently enough in order to have those matchups in his favor if it's worth it. Does he beat any of those characters?

I'd say even with Marth and ZSS, and probably 60:40 Wario's favor. But that's only because Shoulder Bash

 

[Sir Skaro]

How does Squirtle do vs Wario & ZSS & Marth? I'm trying to debate whether Squirtle is worth learning proficiently enough in order to have those matchups in his favor if it's worth it. Does he beat any of those characters?

I play a ZSS main at Texas locals once in a while, and he has problems with my Squirtle. I'm not sure if it's just him or the match up, but he's never been able to take a tournament game off me with ZSS. He has to switch characters to beat me. I find him to be a superior player to me as well, so the MU may be fairly in Squirtle's favor. We played Squirtle-ZSS friendlies for like an hour straight to test the MU and I took like 85% of the games.

 

[Burnsy]

ZSS is better for us than even, Marth is somewhere between even and slightly in his favor. It can be made very difficult for the Marth player though.

Wario I'm not 100% sure but I don't see why he'd have an advantage over us. I'm sure there's something in that matchup that can be explioited, doesn't Wario have a below-average techroll and triproll? Squirtle eats that sorta thing up.

 

[Daftatt]

ZSS is better for us than even, Marth is somewhere between even and slightly in his favor. It can be made very difficult for the Marth player though.

Wario I'm not 100% sure but I don't see why he'd have an advantage over us. I'm sure there's something in that matchup that can be explioited, doesn't Wario have a below-average techroll and triproll? Squirtle eats that sorta thing up.

Squirtle flatout DESTROYS ZSS, he can crouch below her lasers, armor through D-smash, Dair gimp her reel in without even really trying. She has a hard time setting up combos where as he does not.

Burnsy hit the nail on the head for marth. If you start forcing marth to approach you can start punishing pretty successfully and then the MU gets a little better, that is at least the strategy I have employed against really good marths that I can't just 0-D every stock lol.

Wario is probably even. Squirtle has to be careful of his positioning due to shoulder, especially coming off platforms since shoulder bash off a platform has almost no ending lag. But with squirtle's movement tools once you figure out your opponent's patterns with wario it's very very easy to punish. Just never sleep on him or you get boned.

 

[Jamwa]

How does this dair gimp work? Stage spike or just the 1st hit? Does it risk being spiked/meteored by ZSS' up-b?

 

[Daftatt]

How does this dair gimp work? Stage spike or just the 1st hit? Does it risk being spiked/meteored by ZSS' up-b?

basically squirtle grabs ledge, then as soon as ZSS tethers (having already burned her jump) squirtle should hop from ledge and dair, only the bottom of your tail should hit and if you time it right dair will end in time for you to regrab ledge. The single hit of the dair will just knock her out of tether and she'll start falling, she can flipjump to try and get height to re-up B but then squirtle can just do dair again, she can also up-b immediately to try and re-tether which may just get her hit by dair still lol or squirtle can just fast fall and hit her one more time and she is gimped. This only works if there isn't a wall for her to use to recover, so like battlefield.

Also ZSS cannot plasma wire you in this position because her tether will automatically go to ledge. ZSS is actually my secondary and I think they should give her a way to up-B in the tether zone without tethering (if she wants to) by holding B instead of tapping or something.

A harder read is bair gimp where squirtle drops from ledge, jumps bairs, DCs back to regrab ledge (because bair finishes rather quickly. It works for most tether characters like lucas, but for ZSS she has two tethers so you have to make a read.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Thank you guys so much. I definitely see where I can improve on in those matchups, and I will definitely train up my Squirtle for Tipped Off 10 w/ Hungrybox, Axe, Soft, Reflex, and others. I probably won't main him, but whip him out for those specific matchups. G&W is also very challenging for me. At the last tournament I went to, I got 4 stocked by a G&W player named Chip. Is that a bad matchup as well or am I just playing it wrong? It seemed like I could never approach, and was just stuck in the air for combo time.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Couldn't you just nair to cover tether recoveries?

 

[~Dad~]

Gdubs does well against Squirtle.

 

[Daftatt]

Couldn't you just nair to cover tether recoveries?

Sure, but you'd have to go deeper and the hitbox is smaller. It would just be harder but if you just nair right below the ledge that would work great.

Gdubs does well against Squirtle.

Yeah, honestly against G&W I either go ZSS or just G&W ditto.

 

[Zwarm]

When I used to play vs. Oro's ZSS, I always got really close to beating him, but obviously he's the better player. But the MU is probably close to even.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I'm having trouble perfecting the hydroplane downsmash. When do I initiate the d-smash during the SS animation?

 

[Player -0]

basically squirtle grabs ledge, then as soon as ZSS tethers (having already burned her jump) squirtle should hop from ledge and dair, only the bottom of your tail should hit and if you time it right dair will end in time for you to regrab ledge. The single hit of the dair will just knock her out of tether and she'll start falling, she can flipjump to try and get height to re-up B but then squirtle can just do dair again, she can also up-b immediately to try and re-tether which may just get her hit by dair still lol or squirtle can just fast fall and hit her one more time and she is gimped. This only works if there isn't a wall for her to use to recover, so like battlefield.

Also ZSS cannot plasma wire you in this position because her tether will automatically go to ledge. ZSS is actually my secondary and I think they should give her a way to up-B in the tether zone without tethering (if she wants to) by holding B instead of tapping or something.

A harder read is bair gimp where squirtle drops from ledge, jumps bairs, DCs back to regrab ledge (because bair finishes rather quickly. It works for most tether characters like lucas, but for ZSS she has two tethers so you have to make a read.

Can't you hold down while using Up-B to not tether to the stage? If you use this after Down B Walljumping then I think it would work.

 

[Daftatt]

Can't you hold down while using Up-B to not tether to the stage? If you use this after Down B Walljumping then I think it would work.

CAN YOU!? I'm trying that!

inB4 thank you Player-0!

I'm having trouble perfecting the hydroplane downsmash. When do I initiate the d-smash during the SS animation?

@ Yams Everywhere you input a pivot to empty hydroplane, then D-smash immediately following the pivot.
This is called hydropivot D-smash, and since hydropivoting is something you need to learn anyways, you can most reliably use this input to hydroplane a D-smash. The input for the pivot for most people is deceptively LATE in the animation and they input too early.

For normal hydroplane D-smash without a pivot you have to hit a REALLY REALLY precise angle with the C-stick.

 

[Player -0]

CAN YOU!? I'm trying that!

inB4 thank you Player-0!


@ Yams Everywhere you input a pivot to empty hydroplane, then D-smash immediately following the pivot.
This is called hydropivot D-smash, and since hydropivoting is something you need to learn anyways, you can most reliably use this input to hydroplane a D-smash. The input for the pivot for most people is deceptively LATE in the animation and they input too early.

For normal hydroplane D-smash without a pivot you have to hit a REALLY REALLY precise angle with the C-stick.

Not 100% sure, I THINK so. Can't test atm. Brought my GCC up to MD because I was hoping to smash (there was a tournament on that saturday and I couldn't ) and I'm not sure where it is atm.

 

[Burnsy]

Just wanna clarify that even if you do the hydroplane dsmash with the cstick method Daftatt mentioned, there's still a pivot involved. It's just input via the cstick instead and you don't see the pivot happen because on the next frame Squirtle is starting his smash.

 

[PlateProp]

CAN YOU!? I'm trying that!

inB4 thank you Player-0!


@ Yams Everywhere you input a pivot to empty hydroplane, then D-smash immediately following the pivot.
This is called hydropivot D-smash, and since hydropivoting is something you need to learn anyways, you can most reliably use this input to hydroplane a D-smash. The input for the pivot for most people is deceptively LATE in the animation and they input too early.

For normal hydroplane D-smash without a pivot you have to hit a REALLY REALLY precise angle with the C-stick.

It's not precice at all, it's just the down 45 angles on the c stick...
It's forward hydro f smash that you have to be precise on, it's like one to two degrees max above the 45s

 

[Sir Skaro]

I'm having trouble perfecting the hydroplane downsmash. When do I initiate the d-smash during the SS animation?

It's not precice at all, it's just the down 45 angles on the c stick...
It's forward hydro f smash that you have to be precise on, it's like one to two degrees max above the 45s

It matters what kind of controller you have. If you have a controller that was made by Nintendo while the GameCube was still in production, you can just hit the 45 degree angle in the opposite direction you are traveling after the shellshift. It's not that precise, and the timing is similar to a normal BHFS (backwards hydroplane forward smash), just a little delayed.

If you have one of the new white GameCube controllers that everyone and their mom has, then you can't hit the 45. It's a few degrees closer to the vertical. It's very precise. However, with the C-Stick method makes it so that you can travel farther and the move comes out faster. You're also facing the direction you are traveling, even though a pivot is involved.

The FHFS is difficult regardless of what controller you have. I have three old, good controllers and one of the new white ones. My three good controllers all do the 45, but my white one won't. Doesn't M2K only use the old ones? And HBox, and PPMD, and Mango... and Armada. I don't think I've seen them play tournament with one of the white ones.