Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Jamwa]

I love that clapping noise Squirtle makes for no apparent reason when wavedashing

 

[Yams Everywhere]

After mastery of all of squirtle's ATs, what should I focus on? Also how do you all land kills with squirtle. I have no problem accumulating damage, but I can't hit that final blow.

 

[Daftatt]

After mastery of all of squirtle's ATs, what should I focus on? Also how do you all land kills with squirtle. I have no problem accumulating damage, but I can't hit that final blow.

Up-throw D-throw DI trap. if they DI forward on D-throw they are dead, if they DI up on up-throw you just nair them and they are also dead. I usually send out D-throw a lot earlier in the stock to get them to DI for it, then U-throw into nair/fair/U-smash

 

[Yams Everywhere]

What about movement and faking out my opponent. How do I practice that?

 

[Daftatt]

What about movement and faking out my opponent. How do I practice that?

I practice it on CPUs, it still applies to real people, source: my life.

Check out the short hop into waveland grab fakeout, It worked on the CPU, and I've used it successfully a number of times in bracket.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Damn, that's some nice movement. I like how you gimped zard with nair instead of bair.

 

[Daftatt]

Damn, that's some nice movement. I like how you gimped zard with nair instead of bair.

Nair is way harder to DI, and can semispike, if you sweespot it's squirtle's most versatile kill move offstage.

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm almost positive at this point Nair is Squirtle's best gimping tool. Fair and Bair are okay but Nair can send at some of the worst angles.

Also, I'd argue that FThrow is considerably better than UpThrow, but it may just be a personal preference.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm almost positive at this point Nair is Squirtle's best gimping tool. Fair and Bair are okay but Nair can send at some of the worst angles.

Also, I'd argue that FThrow is considerably better than UpThrow, but it may just be a personal preference.

I would say preference.

Uthrow allday

 

[Sir Skaro]

Fthrow is much better IMO. You can use it as a DI mix up much better than Uthrow, and even if your opponent gets the correct combo DI, Squirtle will always have a follow-up kill move at higher %s: the TACUS. For example, you could be on Skyloft and 110% on Charizard may be an iffy kill for down throw. So you forward throw, he misses the DI and you just dash -> JC up smash. Or he catches the DI away, you TACUS and get the kill. If it's at the ledge, it's a gamble because if he gets the right DI, he's safe, but in the middle of the stage you are almost guaranteed a followup.

@ D Daftatt , if your goal is to fake out your opponent with the shell shift -> waveland back and then go in once you've baited something, I think it would be just doing a double(+) shell shift would be better (dashing the way you just shell shifted and shell shifting again). It's faster, tighter, more controllable, and confusing to look at, and you have more options. If you do multi-shell shifts away, you are threatening them with the JCable hydroplanes, your crouch hydroplanes, and all your other smash attack hydroplanes (and just jumping at them). If you multi-shell shift toward, you are threatening with all your shell sling aerials, water gun/bubble, and TACUS. You can even moonwalk in there and go back to your shell shifting to mix them up. Not to mention you can do this on a dime and change the direction of your multi-shell shift easily or wavedash out of it. You can do all of this without committing to anything, and this is one o the reasons I think Squirtle has one of the best neutral games in PM, because he has so many freaking options in just one aspect of his neutral.

Also, I noticed (in more than one video I've watched of you) you roll with Squirtle when you're no necessarily under pressure. In those situations I think you'd find that wave dashing out of shield is 30x better. It keeps you slippery and keeps you out of harms way much more effectively so it's so big. I almost never roll with Squirtle unless my shield is under pressure or will be under pressure I don't want to be in if I don't roll. I'm known in my local scene for vigorously punishing rolls, haha.

 

[~Dad~]

Oh my god you said TACUS so many times my nose started to bleed.

I'm dying.

I'm actually dying right now.

 

[Daftatt]

Fthrow is much better IMO. You can use it as a DI mix up much better than Uthrow, and even if your opponent gets the correct combo DI, Squirtle will always have a follow-up kill move at higher %s: the TACUS. For example, you could be on Skyloft and 110% on Charizard may be an iffy kill for down throw. So you forward throw, he misses the DI and you just dash -> JC up smash. Or he catches the DI away, you TACUS and get the kill. If it's at the ledge, it's a gamble because if he gets the right DI, he's safe, but in the middle of the stage you are almost guaranteed a followup.

@ D Daftatt , if your goal is to fake out your opponent with the shell shift -> waveland back and then go in once you've baited something, I think it would be just doing a double(+) shell shift would be better (dashing the way you just shell shifted and shell shifting again). It's faster, tighter, more controllable, and confusing to look at, and you have more options. If you do multi-shell shifts away, you are threatening them with the JCable hydroplanes, your crouch hydroplanes, and all your other smash attack hydroplanes (and just jumping at them). If you multi-shell shift toward, you are threatening with all your shell sling aerials, water gun/bubble, and TACUS. You can even moonwalk in there and go back to your shell shifting to mix them up. Not to mention you can do this on a dime and change the direction of your multi-shell shift easily or wavedash out of it. You can do all of this without committing to anything, and this is one o the reasons I think Squirtle has one of the best neutral games in PM, because he has so many freaking options in just one aspect of his neutral.

Also, I noticed (in more than one video I've watched of you) you roll with Squirtle when you're no necessarily under pressure. In those situations I think you'd find that wave dashing out of shield is 30x better. It keeps you slippery and keeps you out of harms way much more effectively so it's so big. I almost never roll with Squirtle unless my shield is under pressure or will be under pressure I don't want to be in if I don't roll. I'm known in my local scene for vigorously punishing rolls, haha.

Good critiques dude, I am trying to refine my movement to a science. It's going to take a while. BTW it's not TACUS, it's RHUS or Reverse Hydroplane Up Smash, since Turnaround Cancel Up Smash implies that Turnaround is canceled, which is wrong, the turnaround actually completes and you cancel the jump in the jumpsquat window, since it's a jump cancel.

 

[Sir Skaro]

RHUS, I like it.

Dude, APEX 2015. Squirtle round robin side event. VGBC's stream. Let's make it happen. Squirtle mains who read this message have entered into a contract to go to APEX. I'll see you all there.

 

[PlateProp]

RHUS, I like it.

Dude, APEX 2015. Squirtle round robin side event. VGBC's stream. Let's make it happen. Squirtle mains who read this message have entered into a contract to go to APEX. I'll see you all there.

Where dafuq is apex at

I aint got no money to fly unless somekne pays

 

[Player -0]

I don't technically main Squirtle so I'm exempt. Yush. Would love to go to Apex 2015 though.

Edit - Apex is in like, New Jersey or something. http://www.apex-series.com/

 

[Daftatt]

In the year 20SS, squirtle is the only character people use in Project M, as all other players quit when the metagame reached total maturity but squirtle mains are still figuring him out.

All tournaments are just RPS competitions now, since squirtle is too hard to play, has stupid armor, is too small to hit, and slides flippin everywhere when you actually do hit him; squirtle dittos take forever and people need to get home on time.

 

[Player -0]

In the year 20SS, squirtle is the only character people use in Project M, as he is the only character people are still figuring out how to use.

All tournaments are just RPS competitions now, since squirtle is too hard to play, has stupid armor, is too small to hit, and slides flippin everywhere when you hit him; squirtle dittos take forever and people need to get home on time.

But such is that time when Sonic becomes the Falco to the Fox and can camp as well as Squirtle. Making Squirtle and Sonic the only viable characters.

Edit - Also that 20SS: Shell Shift.

 

[~Dad~]

There's actually a small chance that I'll make it to the next Apex, I've already got a friend that's confirmed to go.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Then comes the era of 20BB, when players figure out that Bowser is Squirtle's hard counter, and the character that was once ridiculed by everyone except DJ Nintendo is now god tier in PM and Smash 4, thus completing Bowser's ultimatum born of bitterness: revenge. DJ Nintendo not only breaks into the top 5, gives birth to new paradigm: armor > intangibility > power > speed.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Then comes the year 20RR. Roy becomes the only viable character solely due to his almighty nooch. Sethlon becomes king and everyone is his peasant.

 

[Daftatt]

Then comes the year 20RR. Roy becomes the only viable character solely due to his almighty nooch. Sethlon becomes king and everyone is his peasant.

Lol, I hope @Sethlon is still spying on our little squirtle thread.

 

[PlateProp]

Then comes the era of 20BB, when players figure out that Bowser is Squirtle's hard counter, and the character that was once ridiculed by everyone except DJ Nintendo is now god tier in PM and Smash 4, thus completing Bowser's ultimatum born of bitterness: revenge. DJ Nintendo not only breaks into the top 5, gives birth to new paradigm: armor > intangibility > power > speed.

Bowser? A hard counter to Swuirtle?

BUBBLETHO

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Sethlon is da best.

 

[Daftatt]

Sethlon is da best.

Dammit son! it's too soon to give up on learning squirtle and just turn this thread into a sethlon circlejerk. kappa

@Warchamp7 My shulk portrait faded into my posts looks weird. The bottom of him just cuts into nothingness really early, can't you just make him smaller because it would look better IMO. The monado getting cut off really throws it off. Plus I'm a premium member so I feel unduly entitled to just ask you for stuff.

 

[Daftatt]

http://www.twitch.tv/daftatt

Come hang out wit me.

 

[Sir Skaro]

BUBBLETHO

Bubble is good, but Bowser could crouch cancel through a train. And then up B it off the tracks. All you're doing is tickling him.

 

[Jamwa]

Someone explain Bowser to me
he super armors like everything and doesnt die and his attacks do 20%
do we have grab combos or something to wall him out?
water gun can be attacked through -.- and bubble only works if hes on the ground.

 

[Player -0]

Dash dance spam -> He does something punishable (any of his moves) -> Hydrograb from across the stage to grab combo.

Repeat after getting randomly F-Smashed.

 

[JCOnyx]

The Bowser MU:

If he's jumping a lot, he's at a disadvantage. (8 frame jumpstart lol)
If he's airborn he's at a disadvantage. (Juggle combos for days with UpAir and Weak Fairs into strong Fairs. We then proceed to edgeguard him with Nair since our armor will power through the weak hits of his UpB and the occasional Bubble lol)
If he's on the ground, he's at a major disadvantage. (BUBBLETHO)

Personally though, I have Bowser as a secondary and things aren't all bad for him. If he can predict your approaches and space you out with edge canceled Fairs and Bairs he can kinda keep his own. Take him to larger stages with less platform interactions to effectively shut him down. For the love of god do not Withdraw against him though, everything powers through it making it only a emergency escape tool when you have no other options.

 

[Jamwa]

gah it just feels like vsing a ganon that can CC/heavy armor through anything
3 wrong hits and its a stock.. :/

 

[Player -0]

I've played around a lot and have been thinking of how useful it would be to be able to hydrograb after running forward. Like a Shellsling but a grab. I haven't been able pull one off and am not sure you can. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Sir Skaro]

I've played around a lot and have been thinking of how useful it would be to be able to hydrograb after running forward. Like a Shellsling but a grab. I haven't been able pull one off and am not sure you can. Can anyone confirm?

You can hydrograb after running forward, but not very far. You can do the RHUS but instead of JC upsmash you can JC grab. However you are turned around and you don't get as much distance, but you still get grab armor (which is unique to Squirtle but hey, the more the merrier). What's that called then, @ D Daftatt ? a RHG? How about about TAHG, Turn Around Hydro Grab?

I got one of the sexiest grabs ever like that. I was edge guarding a Diddy on Green Hill. He up-b'd while he was against the wall, and I timed the TAHG so I grabbed him with my reverse grab box out of his up-b and I didn't flinch due to grab armor, but I was all on fire and took damage. Plus the jetpack didn't fly off because it was a grab. It was siiiiiiick.

 

[Daftatt]

You can hydrograb after running forward, but not very far. You can do the RHUS but instead of JC upsmash you can JC grab. However you are turned around and you don't get as much distance, but you still get grab armor (which is unique to Squirtle but hey, the more the merrier). What's that called then, @ D Daftatt ? a RHG? How about about TAHG, Turn Around Hydro Grab?

I got one of the sexiest grabs ever like that. I was edge guarding a Diddy on Green Hill. He up-b'd while he was against the wall, and I timed the TAHG so I grabbed him with my reverse grab box out of his up-b and I didn't flinch due to grab armor, but I was all on fire and took damage. Plus the jetpack didn't fly off because it was a grab. It was siiiiiiick.

It's just Hydrograb, or HG if you must. By the way we call turnaround "Shellshift". I've actually gone so fast with hydrograb that the opponent attacked me, I didn't grab them, I took damage, but I still just teleported to the other side of them. Squirtle literally can push the game engine physics to the limit.

tldr: You can use hydrograb to teleport/armor through attacks even if you don't grab them.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

So does the armor reduce the knock back of more powerful attacks, or does it only completely protect you from weaker hits?

 

[Sir Skaro]

TAHG sounds better than HG, and it specifies the direction.

That doesn't make sense. It sounds like you SDI'd the hit. When you get hit, you lose all momentum that you have given yourself and gain momentum that's directly proportionate to the knock back of the attack and inversely proportionate to the weight and some function of the fall speed of your character no matter how great your own momentum was prior to the hit. Your momentum prior to the attack is not part of the function that controls knockback. Or hitlag for that matter.

However, before you receive that momentum and go into knockback/hitlag, you go through hitstun. Using SDI, you can teleport your character once every frame of hitstun. I often use that on moves like Fox's down air. I can teleport behind him, making it impossible for him to drill shine me or even to follow up on the drill. The number of hitstun frames is directly proportionate to the knock back I believe, but hitstun cannot exceed a certain number of frames.

You definitely SDI'd. SDI is ultimately pushing the physics engine to the limit. If what you said was true, then Sonic and Captain Falcon would be OP due to physics, and Gannon and Bowser wouldn't live nearly as long as they do.

 

[PlateProp]

TAHG sounds better than HG, and it specifies the direction.

That doesn't make sense. It sounds like you SDI'd the hit. When you get hit, you lose all momentum that you have given yourself and gain momentum that's directly proportionate to the knock back of the attack and inversely proportionate to the weight and some function of the fall speed of your character no matter how great your own momentum was prior to the hit. Your momentum prior to the attack is not part of the function that controls knockback. Or hitlag for that matter.

However, before you receive that momentum and go into knockback/hitlag, you go through hitstun. Using SDI, you can teleport your character once every frame of hitstun. I often use that on moves like Fox's down air. I can teleport behind him, making it impossible for him to drill shine me or even to follow up on the drill. The number of hitstun frames is directly proportionate to the knock back I believe, but hitstun cannot exceed a certain number of frames.

You definitely SDI'd. SDI is ultimately pushing the physics engine to the limit. If what you said was true, then Sonic and Captain Falcon would be OP due to physics, and Gannon and Bowser wouldn't live nearly as long as they do.

Wouldn't you just be doing a running/jump canceled grab? Hydrograb is jcing a grab during shellshift, increasing the distance of the grab by a huge amount.

EDIT: I just realized that what you're talking about is actually just a pivot grab, idk why you're jump cancelin it. There's no hydroplane to it at all, and it's got an established name.

 

[JCOnyx]

This is basically just a super fancy pivot grab. I too would personally prefer to call this technique a RHG, since a regular hydrograb is a forward facing one when coming out of the end of the SS. Specifying which direction you're facing when executing this particular tech should be included.

 

[Sir Skaro]

So does the armor reduce the knock back of more powerful attacks, or does it only completely protect you from weaker hits?

Depending on the type of armor (light, medium, heavy, knockback, or super), it behaves differently.

Light/Medium/Heavy armor cancel all knockback (not hitstun, however. But you can't SDI this hitstun) based on the amount of knockback received. When the amount of knockback exceeds the armor's protection, you receive knockback.
Example: Squirtle fsmash, Bowser downsmash, Donkey Kong dash attack, Wario side-b

Knockback armor breaks at a certain amount of knockback (as the name suggests), but when this is broken you don't receive knockback (unless the knockback is massive. Like getting Warlock punched at 150%).
Example: Yoshi's double jump

Super armor doesn't break.
Example: Fully charged Ike neutral B.

If anything here is incorrect, it's the knockback armor. But I'm fairly certain most of it is correct.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Wouldn't you just be doing a running/jump canceled grab? Hydrograb is jcing a grab during shellshift, increasing the distance of the grab by a huge amount.

EDIT: I just realized that what you're talking about is actually just a pivot grab, idk why you're jump cancelin it. There's no hydroplane to it at all, and it's got an established name.

It's not a pivot grab. A pivot grab has to be out of a dash. When dashing, there is a window where you can turn around (this is why dash dancing is possible.) When you turn around, there is an even smaller frame window where you are in the neutral position. A pivot grab is when you grab during that frame window. In Brawl/PM, you can cancel your turnaround animation with a grab. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to, or what it's called. Perhaps just a turn around grab.

What I'm talking about is shellshifting into a jump canceled grab, but jumping before you receive momentum in the opposite direction. Instead of interrupting the shellshift with just a grab, you jump and then grab. It's a minute difference in terms of inputs, but the JC gives you more momentum by an order of half a magnitude. Not to mention you get all the perks of a JC grab.

So yes, it is a hydroplane, but just a small one.

This is basically just a super fancy pivot grab. (sic) I too would personally prefer to call this technique a RHG, since a regular hydrograb is a forward facing one when coming out of the end of the SS. (sic) Specifying which direction you're facing when executing this particular tech should be included.

Yes, it's a fancy pivot grab. But TAHG sounds so much cooler than RHG! RHG doesn't even resemble an actual word.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

What I'm talking about is shellshifting into a jump canceled grab, but jumping before you receive momentum in the opposite direction. Instead of interrupting the shellshift with just a grab, you jump and then grab. It's a minute difference in terms of inputs, but the JC gives you more momentum by an order of half a magnitude. Not to mention you get all the perks of a JC grab.

If you were to do the shell shift JC grab, wouldn't you be facing in the opposite direction like when you do RHUS.