Squirtle: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Squirting Turtle. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes. Default physics values will be used unless new ones are suggested are earn three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: .90
FH: 1.05
FF: 1.3
DGrav: 1.050
Grav: 1.0

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:

Anything else:

 

[Almas]

A very good character. He kinda lacks kill moves, but he does have a couple of reliable ones, and that's part of life as Squirtle. Players can always swap if they want the kill.

If he is deemed to need changing, I think that should come from his utilt. He's currently able to chain 3-4 together reliably at low% (and a few more, with bad DI). Boosting the base knockback a little would mean that it's still a good setup at low %s, but not a 'cheap' 20-30%.

 

[The Cape]

The U tilt really isnt a negative as Squirtle is excellent at building damage in every way possible and taking this away from him would hurt it. It does not make him crazy as is. I think Squirtle is fine unchanged.

 

[Kaotical]

A very good character. He kinda lacks kill moves, but he does have a couple of reliable ones, and that's part of life as Squirtle. Players can always swap if they want the kill.

If he is deemed to need changing, I think that should come from his utilt. He's currently able to chain 3-4 together reliably at low% (and a few more, with bad DI). Boosting the base knockback a little would mean that it's still a good setup at low %s, but not a 'cheap' 20-30%.

Yoshi can do the same thing w/ his u-tilt, and Yoshi's u-tilt leads to good combo's even.

U-tilt doesn't need changed. Not much at all needs to be changed. If anything, I would suggest more Kb on his back/forward throw to assist in throwing them off the edge into edge-guarding situations.

 

[The Cape]

Kaotical. Try his down throw. Its his kill throw, his others seem fine.

 

[kupo15]

I think squirtle is fine

 

[Ulevo]

The one and only addition I would add to Squirtle potentially is speed up his FSmash or DSmash. Currently right now, they come out too slow to be used, and I think one more kill move would do the character justice. Going for a Dthrow means you're going for a grab, and it can be complicated to get a kill if your opponent knows what you intend to do to finish them off.

DSmash has a beautiful hit box, and FSmash has SA. Either one would work really. Other than that, there isn't much to change.

 

[Revven]

He's really good, but, can be beaten. He doesn't need any particular nerfs, I'm going to look at how much Fair, Bair, and Uair do damage wise and see if it is necessary to damage nerf them. Otherwise, he is good and has legit counterpicks against him. Definitely not broke.

 

[leafgreen386]

He's really good, but, can be beaten. He doesn't need any particular nerfs, I'm going to look at how much Fair, Bair, and Uair do damage wise and see if it is necessary to damage nerf them. Otherwise, he is good and has legit counterpicks against him. Definitely not broke.

Fair does 12 damage, bair does 10 damage, and uair does 11 damage. For their sweetspots, of course. The sourspots do about half of that. His utilt appears to always do 6%.

If we dropped each of the aerials by 2-3% (if we nerf the sourspots, too, nerf them by 1% imo) and dropped the utilt by 1-2%, it would be more than enough, I think.

 

[_Yes!_]

Squirtle's up air: This move is way too powerful. Being able to kill mario at 110% with uthrow uair on Luigi's Mansion, one of the highest ceiling stages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObbH...l_page#t=2m26s

apparently i need ten characters.

 

[Revven]

Well, his Uair already got a damage nerf, does it really need a KB nerf?

 

[JCaesar]

Squirtle is far from the only character with guaranteed kill combos from throws.

See: Donkey Kong. His throw kill combos work on more characters, from lower %s. Is 110% really that unreasonable for a guaranteed kill?

If Squirtle still needs more nerfs, I think it should be done in other ways. I really don't think that's necessary right now though.

 

[_Yes!_]

Yes but, DK is a fat strong slow character. He should be allowed to kill early. Squirtle is small fast and strong. It's just ridiculous to me that that can kill so early on Luigi's.

 

[goodoldganon]

Why does squirtle's f-smash still have that 1-2 frame SA but we removed wario's? Wario's was justified don't get me wrong but this one is just silly and I think we just forgot cause it's so random. You can't even really time for it. Thoughts on a quick hotfix to remove it?

 

[JCaesar]

Because Wario's fsmash is useful and Squirtle's isn't? Is it that big of a deal that it needs to be looked into?

 

[shanus]

I said the same thing to him in the chat lol

 

[goodoldganon]

That makes sense. Still seems more like a bug that he has super armor then something intended. I'd like it removed at some point. Seems silly to randomly get SA on that F-smash since it's pretty much un-timeable. Oh well, whatever

 

[Foxy]

If we want a clean, well thought-out game, I think things like that 1-2 frame SA on the fsmash should be removed.

We have no legitimate reason to keep it in, and it serves to do nothing but randomly alter the match, much like tripping (but rarer).

 

[Shell]

My only reservation is that this could fall into the "possibly unnecessary" category that we've been receiving so much flak for recently. I don't think it's a big deal either way.

 

[Foxy]

I feel that the changes shouldn't be looked at more than the overall game.

People SHOULD feel as if a random smash having a couple frames of SA when others don't is strange and out-of-place, not the fixing/balancing of it.

 

[GHNeko]

It's supposed to fit in the animation of him going into his shell which like Side B, is a sort of absolute defense thing. I think heavy armor would be better though. Not super armor.

 

[Foxy]

Agreed. Imagine last stock, high %, you land a killing move on a Squirtle who happens to have that frame or two of super armor. Not cool.

Heavy armor would be a more balanced choice and would also fit with the concept of that attack.

 

[Shell]

For perspective, DK's paunch has 4 frames of super armor, and his grounded up-B has 6, I believe. Wario's F-smash had 4 frames of SA, now HA.

So we can then establish that 2 frames located at the end is "random" although 4 frames at the beginning is useful. Looking at the tourney results for 5.0 we also notice that so far Squirtle seems to be more or less within the average group of characters.

I feel that if someone can learn to use the couple of frames, then they aren't random or useless, and shouldn't be completely removed.

However, a compromise that might be good would be to make the move 6-8% HA from SA, and last 3-4 frames, shifted to a more useful location if necessary. This sacrifices strength for utility, and hopefully after finding the right level of HA and frame placement, would be a tweak and not a buff/nerf.

 

[GHNeko]

Who can effectively use a 2 frame SA? >_>

 

[shanus]

According to PSA, its 5 frames from aynch 9 + 5 synch frames

 

[goodoldganon]

5 Frames? Woah, a lot more then I thought. It certainly isn't something Squirtle needs (he's pretty stupid good) but whatever. We can discuss it later if and when we release some new set further down the road.

 

[JCaesar]

It's not something he needs, and he is stupid good, but removing it wouldn't really be a nerf, so what's the point? There are other ways we can nerf him to be a balanced character.

 

[GHNeko]

But why leave it?

 

[shanus]

Because the move is already trash. It's like telling him to never use it ever. Its probably the most pointless change proposed in a long time lol

 

[GHNeko]

Wouldn't the move fall into the same category as a less potent Wario Fsmash though?

 

[JCaesar]

It's less potent to the point of it being completely worthless within his moveset.

It'd be like nerfing Ness's PK Flash because it hits hard. wtf is the point? It's already near-unusable.

 

[GHNeko]

Then we compensate it for the loss of SA for HA?

durp

 

[JCaesar]

Again, what's the point? That change would serve no purpose whatsoever.

 

[GHNeko]

Foxy made the original post as to why the SA should be changed. *shrugged*

 

[Revven]

Neko just wants to support something just to support it.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol devil's advocate.