Springfield, MO discussion thread

[Zivilyn Bane]

Also, Ziv, you should check with the church about people staying the night. That's honestly more your thing, since you know most of them better than I do, and you would be the one staying at the church if necessary.

I guess I can do it if necessary. Just thought that since you are in communication with the lady a lot more than I am, you would have better luck. I still think you should ask her. If you want me to, I will. But I need you to PM me her email address again.

 

[>Bert<]

Marth has a ridiculous ledge game. Thats why he should be higher on the tier list. Every other char has to work for it. Maybe not Puff.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Marth has a ridiculous ledge game. Thats why he should be higher on the tier list. Every other char has to work for it. Maybe not Puff.

Maybe one spot higher, because he's overall better than Puff IMO. But I also consider Falcon to be at least as good as Marth, so it's hard to say. I hope they do another tier list some day so I can vote.

 

[Wretched]

Lol, I was waiting for a good comment from Roman.

I must have missed the memo where Nathan said he was going to FC. When I was 17 I had a job and a car Wretched. I didn't have some adult willing to pick me up and pay my entry fees. I think you'll be able to deal with it.

You paid my entry fees like twice when I didn't want to enter and you begged me to play.

You have nothing on me.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Cool story bro. I'm done talking to you now, and will be ignoring your posts.

 

[Vts]

man i still pay for a 21 year old who doesn't have a car or job and travels to tournament

arby your such a good teammate , think thats the only reason i take him place, and he wins me money lol

 

[Wretched]

It isn't uncommon for people in unstable households to not exactly have their lives together to not have a job or a car.

You're ignoring everything I say and just throwing out insults. Like I said, you have nothing. Leave me the **** alone.

 

[G. Vice]

Arby is kind of a bum...and he is horrible with money. I actually kinda worry about him when we aren't around anymore.

Yet and still, we pay for him without question *sigh

 

[Vts]

Arby is kind of a bum...and he is horrible with money. I actually kinda worry about him when we aren't around anymore.

Yet and still, we pay for him without question *sigh

he's gotten little better with his money little better. I'm just worried that he won't find a job after school

 

[Zantetsu]

Everybody in Springfield who is mad at another Springfield crew member needs to make a truce right now, because frankly, an argument without me involved isn't an argument that you should get so worked up about. #toolegittoquit

 

[Wretched]

I wasn't mad at anyone.

 

[arbustos]

2 legit 2 quit!

Yeah, you guys should reconcile. We are smash brethren here. Things need to be discussed sometimes, but this isn't worth losing a friendship over.

Maybe one spot higher, because he's overall better than Puff IMO.

I agree. Marth hasn't come close to peaking as a character. Neither has Falcon, but people generally still suck against Falcon so who knows where that one will end up.

It isn't uncommon for people in unstable households to not exactly have their lives together to not have a job or a car.

This is mostly why I don't have a car, although my home wasn't unstable in a negative sense. There's just never been a point in my life where I could pick up a job, for various reasons. Lol Chamberlin ragged me out about it when I first showed up, and Iori got on his case about being insensitive Good times.

@your avi: Winds of the King!


@Arkansas hooligans: I'm a real boy!

Spoiler

Hey, at least I only spend my money on food. And you know I mean only. That I'm still broke says something about the funds I've gotten recently. Last real paycheck was like two years ago, when I completely paid off my debts to everyone (thousandddds of dollars). It was only so high because of having to pay for two semesters of college out of pocket. That was some real ****, and I'm kinda proud I was able to bounce back out of that situation rather than give up like most people do. And do it while paying all my debts in full??

The couple hundred I've built back up with Vts, and maybe a hundred with Seif (as if all of us don't have a "debt" with him), almost solely through FOOD is a drop in the bucket by comparison. You guys ask me to go eat!!

Only reason I haven't repaid them yet (not that Seif expects or wants it) is because this is a horrible time to be a college student or humanities major. Seif and Vts have already heard that particular talk. It's not like I lost my scholarships again, things just really suck right now. And they're not getting any better, at least for me. Shoulda gone medical.

 

[G. Vice]

Medical is kinda the way to go.

And we wouldn't spot you Rusty if we didn't <3 you.

It does worry me about a job and stuff one day for you, cause that market is slow. But you'll make do I'm sure. Especially with your new mindset that has you actually going to class and stuff. You would have made an excellent awkward doctor, you're so intelligent it's not funny. You even consider it an insult to be compared to the twins, and one of them ACTUALLY IS a doctor. Well, going to be.

 

[arbustos]

Medical is kinda the way to go.

And we wouldn't spot you Rusty if we didn't <3 you.

It does worry me about a job and stuff one day for you, cause that market is slow. But you'll make do I'm sure. Especially with your new mindset that has you actually going to class and stuff. You would have made an excellent awkward doctor, you're so intelligent it's not funny. You even consider it an insult to be compared to the twins, and one of them ACTUALLY IS a doctor. Well, going to be.

There's a major problem in even getting to grad school at this point. Things are looking rough out there.

And lol, I just thought if you were going to draw the very slight differences between yourself, Seif, the twins, and me in terms of smarts, then I'd nitpick my way to the end. It was half mock-rage at being compared to them, and half really thinking they're not always quite with it, if you know what I mean. I dunno, you can only really have this discussion based on feel. It's kind of hard to say anything with certainty.

I guess my reservations stem from our arguments, where they always seem to be a logical step behind, and how they turn into absolute children sometimes. In normal conversation though, yeah they're pretty freaking smart. But I'd say you and Seif are too.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I like how everybody in Arkansas is talking about who's smart and nobody is mentioning VTS LOL.

What a dummy <3

 

[arbustos]

Quiet you, we're trying to threadbomb.

Also his dyslexia is a killer. Hard to think of him without it.

 

[>Bert<]

@Arby - someone recently mentioned to me that this was the year of the Falcon. In all honesty, I laughed to myself. What can Falcon do besides tech chase and combo through reads? I feel like Hax and S2J are peaking the Falcon metagame and the "peak" I speak of is just general smart playing. In essence, mindgaming. As much as I love the char, he just has like nothing going for him to be placed higher.

On another note, I 100% agree that we haven't even come close to peaking Marth's metagame.

 

[arbustos]

@Arby - someone recently mentioned to me that this was the year of the Falcon. In all honesty, I laughed to myself. What can Falcon do besides tech chase and combo through reads? I feel like Hax and S2J are peaking the Falcon metagame and the "peak" I speak of is just general smart playing. In essence, mindgaming. As much as I love the char, he just has like nothing going for him to be placed higher.

On another note, I 100% agree that we haven't even come close to peaking Marth's metagame.

It seems to me that hax and s2j are advancing falcon in different ways that have nothing to do with "mindgames" and more to do with the actual potential of the character. Hax is pretty much frame perfect in a lot of situations where s2j (or almost any other falcon) isn't. He pivot knees to beat approaches, his punish game is amazing (esp. on platforms and vs midweights), and so on. s2j has his edgecancels, unique combo choices and mixups, deep deep bag of tricks, and a knack for positioning himself on his opponent's ***, where he proceeds to pressure faster than any falcon should move. A lot of his play is like that. It may be an overstatement on my part, but it seems like hax plays a perfect falcon and s2j plays another character entirely. s2j also doesn't feel nearly peaked out yet, nor does his play look it (despite how otherworldly it can sometimes appear). He very apparently still lacks finesse in a lot of combo options and little decisions. And edgeguarding.

Combos and edgeguards have been nowhere near fully optimized by falcons. It's kind of amazing, considering how well he does the former and how quickly it results in the latter. I think you might be underrating his mobility and subsequent potential for pressure as well. It all rounds up into an extremely solid package that hasn't been fully explored by any falcon, let alone any one player.

As far as his weaknesses, modern combo break technology (CC, SDI, canceling momentum on edges) has helped a lot of characters including falcon. And s2j has shown how annoying good DI + a heavyweight character recovering high can be. My caveat is that people typically fail at edgeguarding falcon/ganon for some reason, and also cannot deal with simple things on-stage (gentlemeeeen). I think falcon is strong enough as a character without everyone having to suck against him, but I'm not sure where the balance will fall when all is said and done and the metagame has breathed its last.


I pretty much feel the same way about Marth, that no one has taken him as far as he can go in any one direction (let alone all of them).

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I agree with you about S2J. As amazing as he is, he still makes mistakes. That's actually a very scary thought. When he weeds those out, he's going to change the way we all think about Falcon. As far as Hax goes, I don't feel like he's as good as S2J, but he's certainly amazing. Falcon is probably the most punishing character in the game and that can really elevate him beyond Marth at times. How can Marth keep up? Well, we don't know because like you said, his farther away from his true potential than Falcon is. I think more tricks like counter out of shield and shield breaker mindgames can help him, but everything Marth does opens him up to be punished, and the other high tier characters all have safer and faster options.

I think somebody like PewPewU, who is creative and carefree, or Shroomed (mains Marth now) who is so presice and intelligent with move choice, can help Marth get there. There are others as well, but Marths overall right now seem to have a less number of elite players, and don't seem to travel as much.

 

[Dart!]

I love the falcon matchup. Marth is still on equal footing. don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[_Yes!_]

Falcon's good but not good enough to ever win a national. Fox/falco/sheik shut him down too much.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

When I watch matches of you Dart, it's hard to pinpoint what makes you so good. It's a lot of things. But your ability to beast in the Sheik matchup is amazing.

But I wasn't talking about Falcon vs Marth in a matchup, I was talking about Falcon vs Marth as who is the better overall character. I mean this isn't 2008 anymore. Are we all under the impression still that Marth is some godly untouchable broken character? Thinking that way feels like believing in Santa Clause. He's a really good character, and his ability to deal with spacies helps, but he's simply not nearly as good as Fox or Falco. The Metagame and tournament placings all back it up. If we ever revote on the tier list, I would probably vote this way:
1) Falco
2) Fox
3) Sheik
4) Captain Falcon
5) Marth
6) Peach
7) JigglyPuff
8) Ice Climbers

EDIT: Also, I firmly believe you are wrong Chris. S2J is good enough to win a national. Maybe not right now, but he will be.

 

[_Yes!_]

I disagree. Marth can handle Peach and Jiggs way better than Falcon can. He can also handle spacies way better. Peach/Jiggs can't get in on Marth, while they can style on Falcon pretty badly. And nah, Falcon won't be winning any national's anytime soon.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I disagree. Marth can handle Peach and Jiggs way better than Falcon can. He can also handle spacies way better. Peach/Jiggs can't get in on Marth, while they can style on Falcon pretty badly. And nah, Falcon won't be winning any national's anytime soon.

Your entire argument was invalidated when you said "Peach styles on Falcon." Lol. Falcon is one of Peach's hardest matchups. His speed and ability to kill her on any stage below 100% makes him a nightmare for her. Falcon does ok against JigglyPuff as well. Maybe slightly worse than Marth. Marth v Puff is pretty close to even, if not slightly in Puffs favor.

And yeah, Falcon will win some nationals. Watch the videos of S2J vs M2K from Genesis 2 and NYTE. He is amazing and still makes mistakes. If he could gentleman like SS he would've beat M2K at Genesis 2 (the same M2K that 4 stocked Darkrain). S2J also beat Tope, who has beaten every pro Falcon main at one point or another.

Falcon does fine against spacies. In 2012, pro Falcons can consistently death combo spacies enough to win against them. These are the best in the country for their respective character:

Marth - Taj, Shroomed, Dart, PewPewU, TAI
Falcon - S2J, Hax, Silent Spectre, Darkrain, Scar

I think those Falcon players have a better chance to win a National than the Marth players.

Or wait, do you still think M2K wins all those games with Marth? lol. He uses Sheik dude.

 

[arbustos]

s2j has said he thinks he can win a national, and I agree. Biggest obstacle is the falcos, but it could happen someday. I saw potential in that half-baked set against PP from northwest manifest. Sheiks and foxes though? Nah, the falcons already beat or can beat every single one of them.

I have more faith in Marth than Ziv though.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Watching some vids of Mango's marth instills some confidence in the character, but Mango could use Pichu and I'd be inspired.

 

[G. Vice]

The key element that you're both clearly missing in this argument is Ganon.

 

[arbustos]

lolganon

Mango's marth is cool and all because it's not afraid to fail, but he's too loose. There's no ebb and flow. PP is a good example of the fluid style I think Marth needs. Fluidity in every aspect of the game. And he hasn't even begun to master the character.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

lolganon

Mango's marth is cool and all because it's not afraid to fail, but he's too loose. There's no ebb and flow. PP is a good example of the fluid style I think Marth needs. Fluidity in every aspect of the game. And he hasn't even begun to master the character.

I agree. Every time I watch Mango's Marth it looks like the first time he's ever used the character. But because of that it also has a flare that you wouldn't expect a Marth main to have. It's fresh and exciting. Lord help us if Mango ever decides to main Marth >.<

 

[-Sinister-]

how can you say falcon is better than marth? marth's mu's are so much better. his only "bad" matchup is sheik. which is a joke cuz that's like a 55-45. falcon gets ***** by spacies. who are basically the most prevalent characters.

tier list wise i would go with
1. fox
2. falco
3/4. puff/sheik - too close for me to decide. would like to think sheik, but puff is a *****.
5. marth
6. peach
7. falcon
8. IC's

 

[G. Vice]

how can you say falcon is better than marth? marth's mu's are so much better. his only "bad" matchup is sheik. which is a joke cuz that's like a 55-45. falcon gets ***** by spacies. who are basically the most prevalent characters.

tier list wise i would go with
1. fox
2. falco
3/4. puff/sheik - too close for me to decide. would like to think sheik, but puff is a *****.
5. marth
6. peach
7. falcon
8. IC's

Gonna agree with you almost unconditionally on this tier list Sinister. And I also agree, falcon is making some headway yes, but it's nowhere near as good as Marth. Marth mains are complaining because up until now, they've always been able just rely on marth's having the advantage in alot of matchups as well as people not being very good versus him. Now, they have been found out and have to actually be innovative for once, and it's just something they're not used to. Definitely a great character with alot of small advantages in almost every matchup, unlike the spacies who completely dominate some matchups, but then are even or a little less than versus others.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

It's 2012. Do we REALLY still think Falcon gets "*****" by spacies? If you do some analysis, Falcon mains do fine vs fox, and almost as fine vs falco. Falcon does just as well against them as Marth does against Sheik, if not better.

Honestly though, since there are virtually NO Marth mains that travel frequently it's really hard to tell. Marth is obviously extremely good. And I know for a fact he's not getting utilized to the capacity that Falcon is. But I base my opinions off the metagame. In todays metagame, Falcon mains are doing better, traveling more, and expanding their character more than Marth mains are. Taj and Dart are the most traveled Marth mains and they don't hardly go anywhere, that's pretty sad. But for Falcon you got Hax and S2J that go all over the place.

 

[arbustos]

H.R. Puff n Stuff es overrated un poquito

IMO

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

H.R. Puff n Stuff es overrated un poquito

IMO

Agreed. There's like one good puff main. Most people only think she's good because of either HBox, or they lack experience vs her since she's relatively rare. That's why I have her lower.

Sinister, at least we both agree that Marth is 5th.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's 2012. Do we REALLY still think Falcon gets "*****" by spacies?

yes
as technical skill cap gets higher and higher, Falcon has more and more issues to deal with in the spacie matchups. in most cases Falcon players are outplaying spacie mains and can still lose much like Dart outplays Sheik players; you don't see people making the case that Marth vs. Sheik is even, do you?

except for dart

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Wouldn't the tech skill cap affect slower characters like Marth more than fast characters like Falcon? And yeah, Sinister was basically saying Marth v Sheik is even.

I'm just saying that if you look at tourney results, when a Falcon beats a spacie it's because they played better or know the matchup better, and vice versa. Show me some matches where a top lvl Fox beats a top lvl Falcon primarily because in theory it's a bad matchup for Falcon and not just because the Falcon was outplayed.

 

[Strong Badam]

tourney/match results point more toward skill density than character viability. at top level, anyone in the top 7 characters is able to beat another player if they outplay them; disadvantageous MUs are simply harder.

and that's just a really stupid question, because I can link you a ton of videos like that and you can just go "the falcon player was outplayed." here are two examples: cactuar vs. darkrain 4. due to cactuar's effective shield pressure, darkrain is not able to deal damage to Cactuar while Cactuar proceeds to take 3 of darkrain's stocks. here's another: Javi vs. Hax. despite Hax having constant, consistent practice with Jman and being one of the greatest Falcons against Fox, he loses 2-0. if you're just going to say "Hax got outplayed" then lol. yeah, he lost, so he got outplayed, but part of being a good player in this game is unfortunately character selection.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I'm really not trying to argue which character is better or worse. I'm trying to argue a characters placement if a new tier list was made. It says to use recent, relevant tournament results, and the tier list is aimed to predict a characters performance. It also says to assume top level of play, so of course we're examining results of the best. That Darkrain vs Cactuar set is nearly 4 years old. We aren't seeing either of those players do a lot of things that Fox's and Falcon's can do today. And yeah, I'm absolutely going to argue that Javi won because he's the better player overall. All I really have to say is this: just keep watching. The Metagame is trending towards speed, and ultimately that is the most important thing, just like Sinister said. Watch S2J. This guy is going to change the way we perceive Falcon, especially his "weaknesses."

 

[Vts]

how can you say falcon is better than marth? marth's mu's are so much better. his only "bad" matchup is sheik. which is a joke cuz that's like a 55-45. falcon gets ***** by spacies. who are basically the most prevalent characters.

tier list wise i would go with
1. fox
2. falco
3/4. puff/sheik - too close for me to decide. would like to think sheik, but puff is a *****.
5. marth
6. peach
7. falcon
8. IC's

6/7/8 peach/falcon/IC's IMO everything else looks right

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

6/7/8 peach/falcon/IC's IMO everything else looks right

That's what he has already.