Springfield, MO discussion thread

[Strong Badam]

I'm really not trying to argue which character is better or worse. I'm trying to argue a characters placement if a new tier list was made. It says to use recent, relevant tournament results, and the tier list is aimed to predict a characters performance. It also says to assume top level of play, so of course we're examining results of the best.

um okay? you were specifically talking about "this is 2012, do we really still think Falcon gets ***** by spacies?" and I've been arguing the matchup (specifically Fox vs. Falcon before I get into Falcon_, not which character is better, although I hope you agree that Fox/Falco are both better than Falcon. don't really understand the point of this part.

That Darkrain vs Cactuar set is nearly 4 years old. We aren't seeing either of those players do a lot of things that Fox's and Falcon's can do today.

Like what? Examine the video and tell me somewhere where either player is lacking compared today. Contrary to popular belief, Fox's metagame hasn't exactly revolutionized within the last 3.5 years, and neither has Faclon's; both have only increased here and there due to execution increasing. If you want a more recent example, there are sets of darkrain vs. Kels, a lower leveled Fox than Cactuar, going even with darkrain from SMYM 13, and darkrain's playstyle hasn't completely changed since 2008 either.

And yeah, I'm absolutely going to argue that Javi won because he's the better player overall. All I really have to say is this: just keep watching. The Metagame is trending towards speed, and ultimately that is the most important thing, just like Sinister said. Watch S2J. This guy is going to change the way we perceive Falcon, especially his "weaknesses."

I don't even understand the point of this. You're arguing that Falcon doesn't get ***** by Spacies, but then go "Just keep watching" rather than making points to strengthen your side. What are you trying to do? Lol

 

[-Sinister-]

i have a 100% serious question ziv. why is falco (to you) clearly the best character primarily because of consistent top placings (top 10/whatever), yet jigglypuff is overrated? hbox consistently places well. and sheiks generally don't get top 5, yet hbox nearly always gets top 3, yet you have jigglypuff way lower than both falco and sheik. and even captain.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

i have a 100% serious question ziv. why is falco (to you) clearly the best character primarily because of consistent top placings (top 10/whatever), yet jigglypuff is overrated? hbox consistently places well. and sheiks generally don't get top 5, yet hbox nearly always gets top 3, yet you have jigglypuff way lower than both falco and sheik. and even captain.

It is my opinion that he is the best, but for one I never said "clearly" the best, and for two I'm arguing that I believe Falco would be number one if a new tier list was made. That is because there are two Falco mains that are better than ANY Fox main, and two more Falco's that might be (Mango, PP, Zhu, and Westballz). There are really only three characters we see win national tournaments. Peach, Jiggs, and Falco. And I don't believe the tier list should be changed based off ONE person being godly with a character. That's why Peach and Puff aren't that high. With your logic Sinister, Peach should be higher than Puff because there are 2-3 Peach players that can consistently place top 17 in nationals, and only one Puff.

As far as Sheik not getting top 5, you're crazy. You forget too easily that M2K is a Sheik main, and he very rarely uses Marth anymore. Not to mention Amsah, who could take top 5 in most tournaments. And KirbyKaze and Tope also place well. Look at some nationals.

Genesis 2 - Top 17
Peach - 1st (armada) - 9th (macd)
Falco - 2nd (mango) - 7th (drpp) - 17th (dehf)
Marth - 3rd (taj)
Puff - 4th (hbox)
Sheik - 5th (m2k) - 13th (atma) - 17th (lucien)
Doc - 5th (shroomed)
Falcon - 7th (s2j) - 9th (hax) - 13th (ss) - 17th (fuzzyness)
Fox - 9th (sfat) - 13th (lovage) - 17th (silentwolf) 17th (leffen)
IC - 9th (wobbles) - 13th (fly)
Ganon - 17th (kage)
Luigi - 17th (eddy)
Pikachu - 17th (axe)

4 Fox players, 4 Falcon, 3 Falco, 3 Sheik. 2 IC and 2 Peach. One of everybody else.

Pound 5
Falco - 1st (pp) - 9th (remen) - 13th (zhu) - 17th (blunted) - 17th (mango)
Peach - 2nd (armada) - 17th (macd)
Puff - 3rd (hbox)
Pikachu - 4th (axe)
Sheik - 5th (m2k) - 7th (vanz) - 9th (amsah) - 17th (kirbykaze)
Falcon - 5th (hax) - 17th (s2j)
Fox - 7th (cactuar) - 9th (cactuar) - 13th (unknown) - 13th (kels) - 13th (silentwolf) - 17th (lovage)
Doc - 9th (shroomed)
IC - 17th (chu)
Marth - 17th (strawhat)

6 Fox players, 5 Falco, 4 sheik, 2 Peach, 2 Falcon. One of everybody else.

Apex 2012
Peach - 1st (armada) - 9th (macd) - 13th (vanz)
Puff - 2nd (hbox) - 17th (darc)
Falco - 3rd (mango) - 5th (pp) - 13th (zhu) - 17th (dashiz)
Fox - 4th (javi) - 9th (lovage) - 9th (unknown) - 13th (sfat) - 17th (silentwolf) - 17th (chillin)
Sheik - 5th (kirbykaze) - 13th (tope) - 17th (koreandj) - 17th (m2k)
Falcon - 7th (hax) - 17th (s2j)
Doc - 7th (shroomed)
IC - 9th (wobbles)
Marth - 17th (pewpewu)

6 Fox players, 4 Falco, 4 Sheik, 3 Peach, 2 Puff, 2 Falcon. One of everybody else.

Ok so, in the three National tournaments within the last year, this is the number of high finishes we have:
Fox - 16
Falco - 12
Sheik - 11
Falcon - 8
Peach - 7
IC - 4
Puff - 4
Marth - 3
Doc - 3
Pikachu - 2
Luigi - 1
Ganon - 1

So why is it that people think Marth is better than Falcon? Why do people think Puff is better than Falcon? Falcon is the most punishing character in the game. He has a speed only two other characters can match. He can death combo any character in the game. And most importantly he has multiple pro players representing him at an extremely high level and not only placing well, but also expanding what the character can actually do.

Marth is an inconsistent character who lacks representation from active, high level pros. His metagame has been on a plateau for a long time and the other characters are catching up to him.

And while there were more high Fox finishes, he only once got top 5. Where as we see 4 Falco top 5 finishes.

This is analysis from actual recent tournaments. A quick look through some other large tournaments within the last year show very similar results. Lots of Fox's and Falcos. Sheiks, Falcons, and Peachs remaining well represented. One Marth in each in the top 17. The Big House, Winter Gamefest 2012, Northwest Manifest. All of them prove the point.

EDIT: Oh and Strong Bad, for clarification, the points of debate I'm trying to argue now are 1) that if a new tier list was made, Falco would/should be number one based off the backroom criteria for voting on the tier list (which i quoted earlier for reference) and 2) that falcon would climb above Marth and Puff.

And after this analysis I would even change my vote for tier list to even more so reflect the criteria, switching Peach and Marth.
1) Falco
2) Fox
3) Sheik
4) Falcon
5) Peach
6) Marth
7) JigglyPuff
8) Ice Climbers

 

[_Yes!_]

I agree with Sinister's list. Anyway these are all opinions.

 

[Massive]

This is silly, it doesn't really make any sense to demote someone from lack of representation. Jiggs and Marth are not particularly easy characters to play at a high level, one could argue that they are the hardest of the higher tiered characters to play well.

It is because they are hard that they are underrepresented, they are tiered the way they are currently more in reference to matchups than tournament placing. You can't demote someone because they haven't "improved their metagame" recently. Their ability does not degrade because others increase.

Even from your own database, there are twice as many falcons listed as jigglypuffs, do you not think there could be some numeric bias against your reasoning? Popularity should not affect the tier list, because it sure as hell does not affect the capacity of a character to perform.

edit: just realized that sinister's list is just the NTSC2010 list, the coincidental nature of which makes me lol.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Just found a really good post from KirbyKaze on Marth:

By "not being able to kill", I'm basically referring to the fact that he doesn't have 'safe' moves he can throw around to get kills a la space animal back air, Fox dair (because it links to shine, which links to up smash), Falco dair, shines, Jigglypuff's bair, Sheik's everything, Peach nair, Falcon knee, Falcon bair, etc. He also doesn't have a guaranteed, reliable 2-step (throw) combo like Fox's up throw > up air or Sheik's d-throw > fair that enables him to end stocks at a reasonable percent.

Requiring him to edgeguard every single stock away makes him have to do work in situations where other characters can just slot one of their 2-steps in and finish the opponent. Having a 2-step that kills like that also makes completing combos in a really successful way really easy because you can just look for a way to set up that finish (or a similar one). Marth's finishers are way more situational and require a lot of planning and responsiveness that the other good characters... don't need.

I could get stretch this explanation further with various ideas on how Marth has to strike a balance between going for kills and not going for kills but that's largely pointless at this point. The fact is, all that nonsense above is work that Marth has to do but his competitors don't. This is a weakness. In a game where people can kill each other from one hit for seemingly no reason, having your combos not kill is a problem.

Puff also shares the weakness in that her combo game kind of dries up at times but her ability to spontaneously kill out of nowhere (Rest & bair chains) and resistance to death & nonsense helps cover this up.

Massive: Yeah I noticed that about Sinisters list too lol. But if you read the guidelines on how the MBR defines the tier list, you would understand my reasoning.

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

So yes, you can ABSOLUTELY demote a character because they're not being represented. In fact, the data we have on each character is ONLY because of the representation a character gets. It's the same reason Jiggly Puff jumped up to 3rd when Mango and Hbox showed how good she could be. The same reason Pikachu jumped four spots when Axe came out of the woodwork. I'm not saying Marth is getting worse though. I'm saying the other characters are being developed more right now than Marth, and that's factual and proven with my analysis. Tier lists are NOT supposed to be theory crafting or trying to guess where a character is ranked if they were played perfectly. The fact is that Marth does not do too well in today's metagame compared to Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and Peach. There are probably not MORE Falcon and Peach mains than Marth, and even like you said the database shows that. But there are certainly MORE Falcon and Peach mains placing well in huge tournaments, and that's what my previous analysis is all about.

I think that as players, a lot of us tend to base a little too much on old results. Proof: Strong Bad using matches from 2008 for his argument. Sinister posting a replica of the 2010 tier list (possibly without even realizing it). And people simply thinking that JigglyPuff and Marth are better than Captain Falcon in TODAY'S metagame.

 

[arbustos]

KK's overstating pretty hardcore. Marth does have a lot of 2 step kills (e.g. grab/fair/dair/uair/dtilt techchase -> fsmash or dolphin slash) which can be reliably fished for against the entire cast as a natural extension of his gameplay. Same as every other high tier. Not to mention how easily he transitions into edgeguards, where a whole other set of 1 2 steps open up. Fair fair, fair on stage -> dair against... a lot of characters at mid percents, etc. etc. etc.

I think pivot smashes would mitigate a lot of marth's problems in awkward punish positions. Back in 2010, ARC was punishing Iori's sidestepping consistently with pivot tipper. That was death to Sheik below 80% for a pretty common habit. What do most Marths get out of reading a sidestep? Wait, grab. Nair. Marth's punish game is so unoptimized I don't even know. I don't buy the difficulty argument either, since we list one of these guaranteed kills as drillshine upsmash. Pivoting a smash is certainly less difficult - it's just foreign tech for most people atm.

Full control of that will give Marth reliable, reactionary punishes during platform/ground techchases and combos. Even if you don't have time to set up a tipper, going for the regular fsmash, combo starter, or dtilt to force another tech chase or edgeguard is certainly not bad. There are many times when sheiks will opt for a dsmash because it's a solid hit and throws the opponent out of sorts. Marth gets the same or better!

Ironically, the methodology behind KK's own optimizations with Sheik would be well-served applied to Marth. Reliable setups, reactionary punishes.

 

[-Sinister-]

edit: just realized that sinister's list is just the NTSC2010 list, the coincidental nature of which makes me lol.

dot.....dot.

and yes ziv i did realize it. if it ain't broke.
and btw ziv, you put mango as a falco main in genesis 2. clearly a joke. him playing fox at the end is the only thing that made the tournament worthwhile besides his matches with m2k

 

[arbustos]

His fox was just the ambrosia-flavored icing on a cake of sex materialized.

Genesis was an amazing tournament all around.

 

[-Sinister-]

His fox was just the ambrosia-flavored icing on a cake of sex materialized.

Genesis was an amazing tournament all around.

hm. maybe i'm just remembering how ****ty apex was and forgot genesis was better. but you're right now that i think about it.

 

[arbustos]

Haha yeah. I got money on FC being another Genesis/Pound though.

HYPE

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Besides Fox and Falco, who can Marth reliably punish from a grab? We're talking about 1-2 punishes, which are guaranteed. You can downthrow->fair with sheik on over half the cast with your eyes closed. Marth grabs you? DI down and away and he has nothing to follow up with. Pivot fsmash may be a little easier than drillshine upsmash, but pivot tipper isn't. And what happens if you miss a drill shine? You're fox. You can do whatever. If Marth's fsmash gets shielded? Well, he gets grabed. If he's fighting Sheik, Falcon, or Fox? He's probably going to die or eat a lot of punishment. Marth is simply not as safe.

IF he's so good, why aren't we seeing that translate in to ACTUAL RESULTS? I can tell you all day my weight loss pills work better than exercise. But if I have no results to back it up, are you going to believe me? Theory crafting is a fun game. I think Marth could potentially be the best character in the game. But what I see tells me otherwise when we're not looking at 2008 and prior.

 

[-Sinister-]

Besides Fox and Falco, who can Marth reliably punish from a grab? We're talking about 1-2 punishes, which are guaranteed. You can downthrow->fair with sheik on over half the cast with your eyes closed. Marth grabs you? DI down and away and he has nothing to follow up with. Pivot fsmash may be a little easier than drillshine upsmash, but pivot tipper isn't. And what happens if you miss a drill shine? You're fox. You can do whatever. If Marth's fsmash gets shielded? Well, he gets grabed. If he's fighting Sheik, Falcon, or Fox? He's probably going to die or eat a lot of punishment. Marth is simply not as safe.

IF he's so good, why aren't we seeing that translate in to ACTUAL RESULTS? I can tell you all day my weight loss pills work better than exercise. But if I have no results to back it up, are you going to believe me? Theory crafting is a fun game. I think Marth could potentially be the best character in the game. But what I see tells me otherwise when we're not looking at 2008 and prior.

this debate is pointless. i see clearly that the characters are in a certain order and you see it clearly another way. nothing will change. i go by top potential, whether people think it's possible or not. that's why fox has to clearly be first. and the current tierlist, i see it as perfect.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Okie dokie. Pretty cool how two dudes can debate a tier list and still be friends.

We ARE still friends...right?? Lol.

 

[-Sinister-]

tier list
1. fox
2-26. crap characters

if you disagree you're not my friend.

hmm. i'd like to say we can still be friends. but, my hands are tied.

 

[arbustos]

Besides Fox and Falco, who can Marth reliably punish from a grab?

Directly, anyone he can force to either tech off a throw or eat the hit. That's a lot of characters. With pivot or even wavedash fsmashes, more options open up against Peach, Puff, Ganon, and the like.

Indirectly, everyone. His throws are excellent at forcing bad stage position and transitioning to edgeguards. And that's really where Marth shines. He constantly places you in terrible positions where he can reliably cover multiple options. Actually having legitimate follow-ups and kill combos on much of the cast in differing situations and DI mixups is just a plus.

You're underrating how risky drillshine upsmash is. If the dair is DI'd, fox is going to get grabbed or hit. This is already fairly common, and it will only become more so. If the fox barely misses the full waveshine, he's going to think he can land the up smash anyway, get shielded, and get counterattacked (Doc wavedash grab is super common in this situation). Doc, Ganon, Samus, pretty much anyone but the braindead easy falcon/peach are strong potentials for waveshine error. Like Marth, I wouldn't say Fox's strength as a character lies in his straight combo game. Their punish games are ridiculous though.

I honestly couldn't care less about results. It's a poor (if necessary) way of judging things anyway, and our community is too small and dispersed to realistically anticipate any kind of optimal theory in the real world. PP's marth, or M2k and Ice on a good day, are convenient examples to have, but even they don't come close to the level Marth can achieve. It will take time.

It's still 2008 or 2006 or 2001 as far as I'm concerned, meaning each of these (high tier) characters still has years of improvement left in them. Watch a Mango match from 2010, and watch him now. You can't even begin to make a comparison. The same could be said for most of the high level players. New horizons are constantly being broached in this game, no matter how many downers say x character is dead (hax on falcon a year ago???). Let's just see what the future will bring.

hmm. i'd like to say we can still be friends. but, my hands are tied.

lol

 

[Strong Badam]

i have a 100% serious question ziv. why is falco (to you) clearly the best character primarily because of consistent top placings (top 10/whatever), yet jigglypuff is overrated? hbox consistently places well. and sheiks generally don't get top 5, yet hbox nearly always gets top 3, yet you have jigglypuff way lower than both falco and sheik. and even captain.

you see sinister, 1 player is an outlier, but a few means the character is good.

because character popularity = how good a character is

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

I'm pretty sure there are as many Marth mains as Sheik and Falcon, and moreso than Peach or Puff. Nobody said anything about popularity. We're talking about how many of those players actually do well in tournaments. And while character popularity doesn't determine how good a character is, how good a character is does determine character popularity. Unless you're suggesting people pick characters they like rather than who's good...
The three most used characters? No way to tell for sure, but the database shows this:
1) Fox - 281
2) Falco - 240
3) Sheik - 187

EDIT: ok yeah done debating the tier list over here. Time to change the subject.

For FC, right now we have
Zivilyn Bane
Zantetsu
Terral
Sinister

For the 5th seat I'm probably going to invite Bert. He's cool, he doesn't want to drive alone, and we could probably just pick him up at the same time as Sinister to minimize our driving out of the way. I'm going to give Terrence a few more days to make up his mind. He said he didn't want to go but then never got back to me when I asked him why, so I'm assuming he doesn't like me anymore and thus probably doesn't want to ride in a car with me 10 hours there and 10 hours back. So Terrence, if you read this: If you don't reply, I'm giving your seat away in a few days. If you still want your seat you can post up and it's yours still.

 

[Roux]

I don't know what you guys are arguing about. Samus is obviously the greatest character. I mean, she has a homing grab with homing missles!!!! I don't think you guys know what you're talking about.

(giant JK)

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

You guys should go to google and type "Zerg rush"

It's awesome lol.

 

[>Bert<]

Okay we can stop talking about and debating tier list, but you saying S2J over Hax is completely wrong. Watch the few matches where they both play each other. Anytime Hax gets S2J aside he 100% overwhelms him. Hax is the better Falcon. No discussion. Smiley face.

And Sinister - This is in no way a shot or anything, so please don't take it as that. Your personal own worst matchup is anytime you play Falco. See Deku and mostly dmac. The tournaments you have lost, you were taken out by a Falco. So what I'm trying to ask is, explain yourself a little farther when you say Fox > Falco. Please.

 

[arbustos]

Okay we can stop talking about and debating tier list, but you saying S2J over Hax is completely wrong. Watch the few matches where they both play each other. Anytime Hax gets S2J aside he 100% overwhelms him. Hax is the better Falcon. No discussion. Smiley face.

Head to head says very little about overall skill. Besides, they haven't played singles yet. I am DYING for the day.

s2j's better

 

[-Sinister-]

Okay we can stop talking about and debating tier list, but you saying S2J over Hax is completely wrong. Watch the few matches where they both play each other. Anytime Hax gets S2J aside he 100% overwhelms him. Hax is the better Falcon. No discussion. Smiley face.

And Sinister - This is in no way a shot or anything, so please don't take it as that. Your personal own worst matchup is anytime you play Falco. See Deku and mostly dmac. The tournaments you have lost, you were taken out by a Falco. So what I'm trying to ask is, explain yourself a little farther when you say Fox > Falco. Please.

me playing horrible /= a bad matchup. you seem to forget how i'm infamous for playing ****ty. falco is one of my better matchups. so please don't impose what you think is my worst matchup on me. besides when i played dmac i was just horrible anyway.

I don't know what you guys are arguing about. Samus is obviously the greatest character. I mean, she has a homing grab with homing missles!!!! I don't think you guys know what you're talking about.

i agree. samus is so good. she gives me real problems. probably my worst matchup. i just don't know how she works and isn't easy to predict at all.

 

[Strong Badam]

man bert bringing up the summer 2011 results

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Head to head says very little about overall skill. Besides, they haven't played singles yet. I am DYING for the day.

s2j's better

Actually they played at Genesis 2 and Hax won. But I believe S2J has gotten a LOT better since then, and agree he is probably better than Hax now.

Bert you need to watch some recent S2J matches. Go see him vs M2K from NYTE.

 

[arbustos]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that! Damn, I was at that tournament too >.>

 

[>Bert<]

me playing horrible /= a bad matchup. you seem to forget how i'm infamous for playing ****ty. falco is one of my better matchups. so please don't impose what you think is my worst matchup on me. besides when i played dmac i was just horrible anyway.

Ahh, then now I feel like a d***
In all fairness, it was just my opinion. Skewed or not

And Ziv I'll take a look at those matches.

 

[>Bert<]

Edit: damn. You were right. S2J has gotten significantly better!!

 

[-Sinister-]

Ahh, then now I feel like a d***

no need. just a mistake.

on another note why is terrence now not going to FC?

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

no need. just a mistake.

on another note why is terrence now not going to FC?

He was just being silly. We smashed last night and he is going again lol.

 

[>Bert<]

No more room for Bert?!? D=

Fine then! I'll bring Karla nd Brandon!

 

[Terry]

You can have my spot if you want.

 

[>Bert<]

Lol naw it's not a huge deal to me. I'm still planning on going. Thank you though!

Look we have the same number of posts lol

 

[Vts]

http://www.twitch.tv/meleememphistv you guys should watch me arby and ace will be at this in 3-4 hours

also ihavespaceballs, nite, and iori will be here today is just singles ^^

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

You can have my spot if you want.

Stop doing this.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

The ways to become a greater competitive community are:

1. Stop johning: about players, your character/your matchups. (the biggest one)

2. Weed out/call out the johns: don't let nubs spread their nubness with their johns. Call them out when they say "omg Fox is busted, nair has so much priority" cause they have no idea what they're talking about and it's just going to confuse beginners.

3. Help me help you: Sorry if I sound like a "coastie" or whatever lol, but at home the atmosphere of a smashfest is like training camp. Everyone shares everything they know about every matchup. Every single trick or "gimmick". Every way to play a MU more effectively is shared. We are not our own competition.

#my 2 cents

This was quoted in the Smashing Grounds topics and Arby quoted part of it in the Arkansas thread. I'm reposting it here because I think our small community can learn from it. I for one am going to push harder for you guys to do the things that make it much harder for me to win. Things like light shield edgeguarding my Marth, chain grabbing my spacies, laser camping, ect. The things the pros do but we are refusing to do because they're "gay", or because all we play is friendlies. We need to be helping each other get better by playing our best, every single match. Not just vs me, but vs everybody we play.

And seriously, NO MORE JOHNS. I feel like this crew NEVER used to John but now I hear it a lot, and I do it too. It doesn't matter when you last played, who your character is, who your opponent uses, ect. No more johns. Play to win, play to get better. If you can't do that, play to help your community get better.

 

[Roux]

i agree. samus is so good. she gives me real problems. probably my worst matchup. i just don't know how she works and isn't easy to predict at all.

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. I know the character matchup chart rates Samus as an even match against fox (for reasons I don't fully understand, although I've always been comfortable fighting foxes with Samus), but I also know Samus isn't very great overall and not a lot of people use her seriously because of that. I'm just that stubborn idiot that's held Samus as my main since 2001 well... 1999 if you count 64 era.

Either way, I hope I'll be a good sparring partner when we meet up in CoMo. I don't know how to articulate technical details on playing like most of the rest of everyone here, so I'm a bad critic.

Does anyone know specifically why Samus is an equal matchup to fox? My uneducated guesses would be Samus' up+tilt edge guarding, her crazy wide variety of ways to get back to the stage, and spam missles.

 

[Terry]

Isn't Samus pretty difficult to combo?

 

[>Bert<]

Sinister was being super sarcastic lol. He trained with Akuma (one of Missouri's best Samus mains who is now retired) for like a full summer 5-6 times a week.

And yea Samus is pretty difficult to combo, but she can still be drillshined into an upsmash fairly easy. Sinister has tried to explain the Samus matchup to me, but I still do terrible.

 

[Terry]

I took a game off of Ihavespaceballs at MIST. But I don't understand how. I did play Sheik, but I was pretty scrubby then.