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Social Spoon Sword Social

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I just want this patch already. It doesn't even take much effort.
---
OK, this was a lame one line post. Let's add some more meaning to it.
I want this patch just so that the few things in this game that need tweaking get tweaked. All we need is a couple of nerfs to :4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina: and maybe :4sonic::4mario::4fox:, and then buff the low tiers. There's a lot of characters that still need some more buffs.
 
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Yonder

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I just want this patch already. It doesn't even take much effort.
1.1.6 patch for smash bros? Careful what you wish for. Patch 1.1.3 I think it was, was the patch that effectively divided the Luigi community. Was a sad day for Luigi mains. I would hate for Mewtwo to get an unnecessary nerf too.
 

Yoshisaurus Rex

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1.1.6 patch for smash bros? Careful what you wish for. Patch 1.1.3 I think it was, was the patch that effectively divided the Luigi community. Was a sad day for Luigi mains. I would hate for Mewtwo to get an unnecessary nerf too.
I agree, I would rather have 1.1.5 as the final patch.
 

C3CC

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I agree, I would rather have 1.1.5 as the final patch.
And leave Bayonetta as broken as she is? Hell no, that patch had better be on its way.

All I hope is for some Palutena buffs and Bayonetta, Cloud, Fox and Mario nerfs. Also they must leave Rosalina alone, she's perfect except for her Up Air.
 

Sonicninja115

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And leave Bayonetta as broken as she is? Hell no, that patch had better be on its way.

All I hope is for some Palutena buffs and Bayonetta, Cloud, Fox and Mario nerfs. Also they must leave Rosalina alone, she's perfect except for her Up Air.
You really can't call Bayonetta broken. She is good, probably as good as unpatched Shiek and a bit better then unpatched Diddy kong. ( I am giving Shiek/Diddy full meta advancement as well as not being nerfed)
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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And leave Bayonetta as broken as she is? Hell no, that patch had better be on its way.

All I hope is for some Palutena buffs and Bayonetta, Cloud, Fox and Mario nerfs. Also they must leave Rosalina alone, she's perfect except for her Up Air.
Why would Mario and Fox need any nerfs? It's not like they're all that dominant, unless I'm missing something.

As for Bayonetta, nerfing her weight and making her combo game more risky could help balance out the high risk, high reward system for her. And having less weight would mean that even one mistake could hurt Bayonetta more than it did before.
 

Sonicninja115

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They didn't have multiple variations of a 0-death.....
You shouldn't get killed by any 0-deaths unless the Bayo has rage. At 0, no combo works regardless of DI, the ones that kill at least. The 0-deaths are there, but not possible at this point unless you seriously mess up. I am not ttaking into account the possibility of better combos being found though. Marios 0-death is as viable as Bayos, more actually. Also, Shiek had a 0-50%ish chain grab, plus her optimal 0-death combos on Fox.

Diddy would have all the new Dtilt shenanigans, plus optimized banana play, as well as death combos. Uair was crazy pre-patch.

Bayonetta, despite popular opinion, isn't broken. She is very, very good, but not broken. She has BW, but BW is very punishable when read, and can even be reacted too. Her grab game is fairish, nothing amazing like M2's. She has HORRID frame data on everything except Wtwist, which can't really kill unless used out of Dtilt. Her moves combo into each other to an insane degree, often broken levels of combos, but they don't deal that much. Her 50% combos are inconsistent at best, and require a solid read on Dtilt DI. Her 40% combos are much more possible, but still inconsistent with proper MU knowledge. Her only truly broken option is Wtime, which has been nerfed appropriately. Personally, I believe that a start up nerf to Wtime would fix Bayonetta. A frame 7 or even 6 start-up with a 35 FAF and BW at 27-35 would fix it.

Otherwise, her combos aren't broken. The reason behind this is simple. How many kills did PF get on Tyrant with combos? How many combos did PF drop? Watch Aphro at Fresh Saga, in one of his games he had to try 5 times to get a simple combo off. Her combos are really good, but only when you pull them off once in a blue moon.

Lets look at damage output.
Metaknight Uair string:
Dthrow, 7.5%
Uair, 4%
SL, 12%

Now, doing the math, a Uair string does a minimum of 11.5% and a max of 39.5 percent. This isn't the most exact numbers, but pretty close. Think about it, MK's string does a tiny bit less damage, while killing. Also, it relies on the opponent missing their DI and SDI now, but people don't complain about how hard to DI it is even though it is still a 50/50 situation or very close to one.

Now, if you want damage, that is easy. Uair combos into Mach tornado, making the combo give a minimum of 30% and a max of about 47.5 or more depending on how much mashing can add. That is better then most of Bayos damage out put and can kill as well.

Also, we have ZSS:
Dthrow: 5%
Uair: 6.5%
Boost Kick: 15%
Flip Kick: 14%

So ZSS's isn't as good, but still makes a point. Her combos are much easier and disregard DI except for the Boost Kick and Flip Kick portions. The minimum/max is 18% and 33%. Another variant starting with the uair raises it to 34%. Very consistent, works at a large range, can kill and does respectable damage. All-in-all, much easier to do then Bayonetta combos. ZSS does have a downside in her Grab though, which is pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as Bayonetta's. She also has PF combos which are Bayonetta level plus being consistent. Same as Mario.

Now, for my favorite, Mewtwo:
Dtilt: 5%
Nair: 12%
Fair: 13%
Uair: 11%

First, Mewtwo can chain Fairs for a whopping 52%, which kills. The only way out is DI away which can inadvertently kill you on the third fair which is completely guaranteed on a fairly large portion of the cast.

Second, you have the infinite, obviously better then Bayonetta's combos even though you can escape with simple SDI.

Third, Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-DJ Uair-Fair deals 57%, kills, works in a twenty percent range on 80%, maybe 90% of the cast and is guarenteed, regardless of opponents DI. You can escape the Fair, but will get hit by Bair/Uair instead.

You also have the simple 20% and 30% combos that I won't go into. Also, the best thing, no downsides. Whatsoever.

Bayonetta's combos are very good, only outstripped in some instances by a couple of combos, but they come with a major drawback. 43 frames of landing lag. 43. Getting close to a full second there. Now, Bayo has to either discard her Time, or suffer the landing lag. Both are extremely favorable to you. She has fifteen seconds where you don't have to worry about Time nearly as much as she can't get a Smash off, or she suffers 43 frames of landing lag. If you fall slower then her, and a lot slower, you will still have 20 frames in which to punish her. Bowser could punish with a smash attack. BOWSER. Fsmash no less. And that is with 23 frames priority on Bayonetta after a longer combo. No other character has that large of a weakness. It is extremely easy to get a grab off at the very least, as she has no low frame moves and has to either spotdodge with her frame 5 spotdodge or shield.

Questions?
 

iVoltage

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You shouldn't get killed by any 0-deaths unless the Bayo has rage. At 0, no combo works regardless of DI, the ones that kill at least. The 0-deaths are there, but not possible at this point unless you seriously mess up. I am not ttaking into account the possibility of better combos being found though. Marios 0-death is as viable as Bayos, more actually. Also, Shiek had a 0-50%ish chain grab, plus her optimal 0-death combos on Fox.

Diddy would have all the new Dtilt shenanigans, plus optimized banana play, as well as death combos. Uair was crazy pre-patch.

Bayonetta, despite popular opinion, isn't broken. She is very, very good, but not broken. She has BW, but BW is very punishable when read, and can even be reacted too. Her grab game is fairish, nothing amazing like M2's. She has HORRID frame data on everything except Wtwist, which can't really kill unless used out of Dtilt. Her moves combo into each other to an insane degree, often broken levels of combos, but they don't deal that much. Her 50% combos are inconsistent at best, and require a solid read on Dtilt DI. Her 40% combos are much more possible, but still inconsistent with proper MU knowledge. Her only truly broken option is Wtime, which has been nerfed appropriately. Personally, I believe that a start up nerf to Wtime would fix Bayonetta. A frame 7 or even 6 start-up with a 35 FAF and BW at 27-35 would fix it.

Otherwise, her combos aren't broken. The reason behind this is simple. How many kills did PF get on Tyrant with combos? How many combos did PF drop? Watch Aphro at Fresh Saga, in one of his games he had to try 5 times to get a simple combo off. Her combos are really good, but only when you pull them off once in a blue moon.

Lets look at damage output.
Metaknight Uair string:
Dthrow, 7.5%
Uair, 4%
SL, 12%

Now, doing the math, a Uair string does a minimum of 11.5% and a max of 39.5 percent. This isn't the most exact numbers, but pretty close. Think about it, MK's string does a tiny bit less damage, while killing. Also, it relies on the opponent missing their DI and SDI now, but people don't complain about how hard to DI it is even though it is still a 50/50 situation or very close to one.

Now, if you want damage, that is easy. Uair combos into Mach tornado, making the combo give a minimum of 30% and a max of about 47.5 or more depending on how much mashing can add. That is better then most of Bayos damage out put and can kill as well.

Also, we have ZSS:
Dthrow: 5%
Uair: 6.5%
Boost Kick: 15%
Flip Kick: 14%

So ZSS's isn't as good, but still makes a point. Her combos are much easier and disregard DI except for the Boost Kick and Flip Kick portions. The minimum/max is 18% and 33%. Another variant starting with the uair raises it to 34%. Very consistent, works at a large range, can kill and does respectable damage. All-in-all, much easier to do then Bayonetta combos. ZSS does have a downside in her Grab though, which is pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as Bayonetta's. She also has PF combos which are Bayonetta level plus being consistent. Same as Mario.

Now, for my favorite, Mewtwo:
Dtilt: 5%
Nair: 12%
Fair: 13%
Uair: 11%

First, Mewtwo can chain Fairs for a whopping 52%, which kills. The only way out is DI away which can inadvertently kill you on the third fair which is completely guaranteed on a fairly large portion of the cast.

Second, you have the infinite, obviously better then Bayonetta's combos even though you can escape with simple SDI.

Third, Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-DJ Uair-Fair deals 57%, kills, works in a twenty percent range on 80%, maybe 90% of the cast and is guarenteed, regardless of opponents DI. You can escape the Fair, but will get hit by Bair/Uair instead.

You also have the simple 20% and 30% combos that I won't go into. Also, the best thing, no downsides. Whatsoever.

Bayonetta's combos are very good, only outstripped in some instances by a couple of combos, but they come with a major drawback. 43 frames of landing lag. 43. Getting close to a full second there. Now, Bayo has to either discard her Time, or suffer the landing lag. Both are extremely favorable to you. She has fifteen seconds where you don't have to worry about Time nearly as much as she can't get a Smash off, or she suffers 43 frames of landing lag. If you fall slower then her, and a lot slower, you will still have 20 frames in which to punish her. Bowser could punish with a smash attack. BOWSER. Fsmash no less. And that is with 23 frames priority on Bayonetta after a longer combo. No other character has that large of a weakness. It is extremely easy to get a grab off at the very least, as she has no low frame moves and has to either spotdodge with her frame 5 spotdodge or shield.

Questions?
Well, I should do some more looking for myself but I was uninformed. You should pastebin this btw
 

Smashifer

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I think I would like at least one more patch to fix the problems characters like Dedede have, like his hitboxes for instance.
 
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Whoever said Mario's 0-death combo is as lethal than Bayonetta's is correct. In my first 1.1.5 tier list, I ranked Mario #2 behind Rosalina. Now I still rank him #2, but behind Bayo instead. He bypasses almost all matchups with cape and grab combos alone.

The characters I think are the only ones that are dominant enough to be nerfed are the ones mentioned towards the end of the previous page (:4bayonetta::4cloud::4fox::4mario:) and then :rosalina:'s up air and maybe her jab. And something to put :4sonic: in check could be good, but what is there that is worth nerfing anyway?

As for those to be buffed- well, there's certainly not as many now, but there are nonetheless. It's really a matter of opinion on this one, unlike the buffs, so I won't say my views.
 

iVoltage

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Whoever said Mario's 0-death combo is as lethal than Bayonetta's is correct. In my first 1.1.5 tier list, I ranked Mario #2 behind Rosalina. Now I still rank him #2, but behind Bayo instead. He bypasses almost all matchups with cape and grab combos alone.

The characters I think are the only ones that are dominant enough to be nerfed are the ones mentioned towards the end of the previous page (:4bayonetta::4cloud::4fox::4mario:) and then :rosalina:'s up air and maybe her jab. And something to put :4sonic: in check could be good, but what is there that is worth nerfing anyway?

As for those to be buffed- well, there's certainly not as many now, but there are nonetheless. It's really a matter of opinion on this one, unlike the buffs, so I won't say my views.
I want to know about how cape and his grab invalidate matchups ROFL, I can guarantee you are overselling it a bit.
 

Sonicninja115

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I want to know about how cape and his grab invalidate matchups ROFL, I can guarantee you are overselling it a bit.
It's sorta like people saying Mario beats Mewtwo because he can cape SB, and not crediting the actual reasons.
 

C3CC

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Whoever said Mario's 0-death combo is as lethal than Bayonetta's is correct. In my first 1.1.5 tier list, I ranked Mario #2 behind Rosalina. Now I still rank him #2, but behind Bayo instead. He bypasses almost all matchups with cape and grab combos alone.

The characters I think are the only ones that are dominant enough to be nerfed are the ones mentioned towards the end of the previous page (:4bayonetta::4cloud::4fox::4mario:) and then :rosalina:'s up air and maybe her jab. And something to put :4sonic: in check could be good, but what is there that is worth nerfing anyway?

As for those to be buffed- well, there's certainly not as many now, but there are nonetheless. It's really a matter of opinion on this one, unlike the buffs, so I won't say my views.
What's wrong with Rosalina's jab?

I also happen to think that her Forward Air needs a slight decrease in terms of ending lag. Thing takes forever to finish. Would that make her unfair? I don't know.
 

ZephyrZ

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I have a Twitter account, but I never actually use it or anything. None of the mainstream social media has ever managed to stick with me, even when people in my family tried to make it happen.
 
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I do not have Twitter. I asked Apex how to sign up to commentate, and they told me i need Twtter to submit existing commentary. Hitbox Arena had it, but I'm not sure if they deleted it.

But why does everything require Twitter now? Seriously people.
 

PEACE7

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I started using mine recently. I mean there are some pretty cool clips and bits and pieces of good knowledge thrown around that website so it might be worth using.
 

IsmaR

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Heartbreaking way to go out, not being able to recover last stock 2 games in a row. Playing so many games one after the other probably took its toll.

That said, this was still a fantastic showing from both players. Anyone that doubts Mewtwo being top 15 (10, even) after watching that is out of their gourd.
 

gameplayzero

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That said, this was still a fantastic showing from both players. Anyone that doubts Mewtwo being top 15 (10, even) after watching that is out of their gourd.
the meta isn't even defined yet since the patch came out not that long ago. Lets actually give it some time before we jump to conclusions. Its been 2 months since the last patch.Thats definitely not enough time to dictate tier list or character placements when new tech or strategies haven't even been devised yet.

for all we know Aba's streak with m2 could be cut short in a few months.
 
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Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
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I think the Mewtwo guide is the third largest guide on Smashboards now, only beaten by Palutena (barely) and Fox (Melee). I still have so much to do with it too, over half of the guide is unfinished. I have so many sections down that need to be finished, mainly started though.
 

iVoltage

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I think the Mewtwo guide is the third largest guide on Smashboards now, only beaten by Palutena (barely) and Fox (Melee). I still have so much to do with it too, over half of the guide is unfinished. I have so many sections down that need to be finished, mainly started though.
How much could there possibly be to say about palutena?
 

Sonicninja115

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How much could there possibly be to say about palutena?
They have a match-ups thing, they actually went into stage discussion on their boards, customs and large banners. I tested the length with counting, and mine is 35 seconds, Palu's is 42 seconds and Fox is an obscene length of probably 60 or 70.

Hey, I also opened up tier list discussion of where Mewtwo is in the metagame thread, so come over and give your thoughts! I would suggest that you give your thoughts on the manner though. Is it because of character strength? MU Spread? Bias? Also, I have added a discussion on the general opinion of Mewtwo, so give your thoughts on why most top players think they go even with Mewtwo as well as the opinion that M2 is top 10 in the game.
 

gameplayzero

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Hey, I also opened up tier list discussion of where Mewtwo is in the metagame thread, so come over and give your thoughts! I would suggest that you give your thoughts on the manner though. Is it because of character strength? MU Spread? Bias? Also, I have added a discussion on the general opinion of Mewtwo, so give your thoughts on why most top players think they go even with Mewtwo as well as the opinion that M2 is top 10 in the game.
1.1.6 patch was announced to be coming this month just a heads up. Might want to put a disclaimer on your guide until it hits.
 
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Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
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1.1.6 patch was announced to be coming this month just a heads up. Might want to put a disclaimer on your guide until it hits.
No need. I put the infinite guide in there, but I already have a disclaimer saying it is probably going to be patched. Anything that is changed can be quickly edited. Personally, I am planning on updating my guide as soon as the changes are established. Thanks for the warning!

Also, there is maintenance at 5:30 PST tonight, so most likely then, it is really screwing up my video schedule...
 

Sonicninja115

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I hope Mewtwo doesn't get any nerfs in this patch.
The infinite is going to be removed, probably through altering the cooldown of Disable. A simple change of 0.2 seconds would remove the infinite.

Otherwise, I don't see anything getting nerfed. He hasn't been dominant since Pound, so I see no reason to think he needs nerfed.
 

iVoltage

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The infinite is going to be removed, probably through altering the cooldown of Disable. A simple change of 0.2 seconds would remove the infinite.

Otherwise, I don't see anything getting nerfed. He hasn't been dominant since Pound, so I see no reason to think he needs nerfed.
Yeah it's a VERY small patch so I doubt anything significant is going to happen.
 
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