[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[Teeb147]

Well now I'm just confused. I guess Mizumi doesn't know what he's talking about?

I think what Mizumi is saying is that the height number doesn't change the model to be that size, it just affects the model. But panda is saying that most of the height numbers are still, for the most part, around the size of the model. (which might make the number still mean something)

@ryumo says that it has more to do with the number of times the model was rescaled, which doesn't align with what panda's saying. I might be wrong, but that's my impression for now.

 

[PsySmasher]

I'm gonna be really critical of Mizumi right now, but I don't really want to sound rude. I think he is causing confusion by saying the height stat doesn't matter, because it certainly does. If you line up characters by their height stat, they go in order of tallest to shortest. Isabelle is the only character who is actually barely taller than her height stat. Captain falcon is size 18, and luigi is size 15, actually. I don't know where he is getting these fake values, but it's misinforming a lot of people. Height has always been a perfect way to gauge a character's size, lol.

Wait... what?

...I’m so confused right now.

Does anyone just have a list of character heights, so we can see whether or not the height value means anything?

 

[Calane]

I think what Mizumi is saying is that the height number doesn't change the model to be that size, it just affects the model. But panda is saying that most of the height numbers are still, for the most part, around the size of the model. (which might make the number still mean something)

@ryumo says that it has more to do with the number of times the model was rescaled, which doesn't align with what panda's saying. I might be wrong, but that's my impression for now.

Huh... Well, I guess I'll just fade into the background until all of this has been sorted out.

 

[Deleted member]

I think what Mizumi is saying is that the height number doesn't change the model to be that size, it just affects the model. But panda is saying that most of the height numbers are still, for the most part, around the size of the model. (which would make the number still mean something)

@ryumo says that it has more to do with the number of times the model was rescaled, which doesn't align with what panda's saying. I might be wrong, but that's my impression for now.

Its hard to explain but my explanation isn't necessarily against what Polar actually states but rather that trying to make sense of how they were developed and how they ended with those sizes to try to explain discrepancies. My main point is that while the character may end up being in the scale of those characters, there can be slight variations or size may be off if the character is like Ridley which seems to be scaled with Samus who to my knowledge seem to be the same "height".

When developing a model, the model would be in a position like this.

Knowing Ridley actual Size standing up, it wouldn't make sense that the character has the same height value as Samus considering he is 2 times as big as her.

 

[ZenythSmash]

Wait... what?

...I’m so confused right now.

Does anyone just have a list of character heights, so we can see whether or not the height value means anything?

just talk about the 3 Links and Ridley, lol

 

[Deleted member]

Seems Mizumi was confusing Peach and Luigi height stats, I wanna know everyone's height stats as well since we seem to be going on and on with this **** too many times

 

[Teeb147]

Its hard to explain but my explanation isn't necessarily against what Polar actually states but rather that trying to make sense of how they were developed and how they ended with those sizes to try to explain discrepancies. My main point is that while the character may end up being in the scale of those characters, there can be slight variations or size may be off if the character is like Ridley which seems to be scaled with Samus who to my knowledge seem to be the same "height".

When developing a model, the model would be in a position like this.

Knowing Ridley actual Size standing up, it wouldn't make sense that the character has the same height value as Samus considering he is 2 times as big as her.

I'm not sure what you're saying.
The model would have a height when standing upright, sure, but then they position it, so they can make it lower by making it not stand upright.
The question is what the height number actually does in the game.

 

[PolarPanda]

Well, see now we're back with this. It was talked about a bit in the brave thread, but I'm still wondering about it. Do you happen to know the height number for all the characters? When mizumi showed falcon and ike, what's your take on it?

Mizumi's numbers were completely wrong. He claimed luigi had a higher height stat than falcon but... falcon actually is 3 height values taller than luigi. It seems he deleted his tweet now. No idea why he's spreading misinformation, but I will say it seems like he's trying really hard to say the height stat doesn't matter. Faking information is not a good way to make a point, though.

 

[Teeb147]

Mizumi's numbers were completely wrong. He claimed luigi had a higher height stat than falcon but... falcon actually is 3 height values taller than luigi. It seems he deleted his tweet now. No idea why he's spreading misinformation, but I will say it seems like he's trying really hard to say the height stat doesn't matter. Faking information is not a good way to make a point, though.

Funny, I actually just tried to look at that tweet and it was gone.

Maybe he's biased like a lot of people are Or maybe he just didn't look at the right numbers. If you know the height numbers, do you have the actual numbers? Also wondering if someone uploaded the pages of code that has that info.

 

[PolarPanda]

Falcon is height 18. Yes, even his Peach post is a lie. I have no idea why he's claiming falcon is size 15 and peach is 17, but it's wrong. Falcon is 18. He must have altered that height stat in the text file before showing the video he tweeted lol. Falcon is 18, that's why he's slightly taller than Peach. If anything, he's proving the point that height does have significance.

Here is a pastebin of all of Captain Falcon's stats including height BTW:
https://pastebin.com/dYBGApuV

 

[Teeb147]

Falcon is height 18. Yes, even his Peach post is a lie. I have no idea why he's claiming falcon is size 15 and peach is 17, but it's wrong. Falcon is 18. He must have altered that height stat in the text file before showing the video he tweeted lol. Falcon is 18, that's why he's slightly taller than Peach. If anything, he's proving the point that height does have significance.

I doubt he'd be stupid enough to alter it, when it's public info (well, you know what i mean).

and ridley is how much, actually?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure what you're saying.
The model would have a height when standing upright, sure, but then they position it, so they can make it lower by making it not stand upright.
The question is what the height number actually does in the game.

I think I didn't explain this but 3D modeling is a 3 step process:
-modeling is first step
-rigging or adding a skeleton would be the second
-rendering is the last and most painful step
Its counterproductive to lower Ridley before adding the skeleton since it makes the process of adding it a lot more difficult later on. You lower the character and put him on his fighting stance and test it, but it is done when you have an idea of the size. Considering Ridley is the tallest character by far the reference for him being Samus makes a lot of sense.

Mizumi's numbers were completely wrong. He claimed luigi had a higher height stat than falcon but... falcon actually is 3 height values taller than luigi. It seems he deleted his tweet now. No idea why he's spreading misinformation, but I will say it seems like he's trying really hard to say the height stat doesn't matter. Faking information is not a good way to make a point, though.

I think he's right regarding that the stat means how many times the model is increased, and unless we have a character that uses one of the characters with a "height" 13 as a model, its likely we will have a character within the 13 range. He's pretty much misinforming with the other stuff though.

 

[Teeb147]

Well Mizumi seems to be admitting his mistake.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I think I didn't explain this but 3D modeling is a 3 step process:
-modeling is first step
-rigging or adding a skeleton would be the second
-rendering is the last and most painful step
Its counterproductive to lower Ridley before adding the skeleton since it makes the process of adding it a lot more difficult later on. You lower the character and put him on his fighting stance and test it, but it is done when you have an idea of the size. Considering Ridley is the tallest character by far the reference for him being Samus makes a lot of sense.

I think he's right regarding that the stat means how many times the model is increased, and unless we have a character that uses one of the characters with a "height" 13 as a model, its likely we will have a character within the 13 range. He's pretty much misinforming with the other stuff though.

I kinda got that from your longer post in the brave thread, but if you look at ridley and samus in the game they're about the same height apart from the wings anyway. I think right now we might just need to recheck the height numbers in general. I wonder, if their height numbers were changed, like giving them mario's number, if they' both shrink to the same size, and if it's the same height change when put on other characters.

Anyway, if the height number does matter, than that could mean brave is a short character. Or it could mean that the model's first scale was something weird, or that it doesnt matter until they work more on the model (like maybe they just put a random number).

 

[Untouch]

Alright in the source gaming discord Mizumi did some tests, changing the "height" parameter doesn't seem to effect the model at all.

This is with both characters set to 15.
I don't think height is super important, it seems to be for something we don't know about.

 

[EarlTamm]

Alright in the source gaming discord Mizumi did some tests, changing the "height" parameter doesn't seem to effect the model at all.
View attachment 186959
This is with both characters set to 15.
I don't think height is super important, it seems to be for something we don't know about.

What about the hitbox and other non model related stuff?

 

[Deleted member]

Alright in the source gaming discord Mizumi did some tests, changing the "height" parameter doesn't seem to effect the model at all.
View attachment 186959
This is with both characters set to 15.
I don't think height is super important, it seems to be for something we don't know about.

Well so much for that theory. Now I'm confused.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

U Untouch Can you have Mizumi get a pic of ridley and Pichu at their standard heights in the training area for reference? Because those heights look different to me.

Pichu being over half the size of Ridley does not look quite right.

 

[Untouch]

U Untouch Can you have Mizumi get a pic of ridley and Pichu at their standard heights in the training area for reference? Because those heights look different to me.

Pichu being over half the size of Ridley does not look quite right.

I don't have a picture, but that's what pichu looks like normally.

 

[Teeb147]

Alright in the source gaming discord Mizumi did some tests, changing the "height" parameter doesn't seem to effect the model at all.
View attachment 186959
This is with both characters set to 15.
I don't think height is super important, it seems to be for something we don't know about.

Good to know. I think we can set to bed the idea that the height value 'sets' it. It most likely just affects it a bit somehow.

U Untouch Can you have Mizumi get a pic of ridley and Pichu at their standard heights in the training area for reference? Because those heights look different to me.

Pichu being over half the size of Ridley does not look quite right.

It probably affected their sizes, but not by a lot. At the very least the huge difference between them confirms that the number for brave wont matter too much without the model.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

Wait then how did Mizumi make that pic of Ike being smaller than Lucina?

I am very confused now.

 

[Deleted member]

That's bad for Geno right? I..Don't want to get any false hope after the Grinch leak and this entire Cycle.

 

[Untouch]

Wait then how did Mizumi make that pic of Ike being smaller than Lucina?

I am very confused now.

There's a scale value as well (which is what actually determines the size), but it's impossible to tell what the character will be based on that.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe we should wait for someone else to verify this, as Polar said some comments from Mizumi were wrong.

That's bad for Geno right? I..Don't want to get any false hope after the Grinch leak and this entire Cycle.

I suggest that you stay on wait and see mode, rather than keep hopes going up and down. This situation is a rollercoaster

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe we should wait for someone else to verify this, as Polar said some comments from Mizumi were wrong.

I suggest that you stay on wait and see mode, rather than keep hopes going up and down. This situation is a rollercoaster

Yeah that's probably for the best. I'll do that.

Edit: Either way though, this certainly is interesting

 

[Teeb147]

That's bad for Geno right? I..Don't want to get any false hope after the Grinch leak and this entire Cycle.

Not really bad, it just means it could be any size of a character.

But if what panda said has something, then the numbers are still aligned a bit with their actual sizes. Like peach is shorter than falcon and her number is smaller (by 1). But I dont know the numbers of all the characters and nobody's brought more up, so who knows.

 

[Ovaltine]

There's a scale value as well (which is what actually determines the size), but it's impossible to tell what the character will be based on that.

Basically then, the height value in code and the scale value are not one in the same, so of course changing it for Pichu and Ridley won't make any visual changes. It obviously affects some other stat, but what? Given the consistency of characters' sizes and the height value, as noted by Polar, it likely has some kind of important connection. Height value and scale value both altering the same thing would be superfluous, though.

 

[Untouch]

Basically then, the height value in code and the scale value are not one in the same, so of course changing it for Pichu and Ridley won't make any visual changes. It obviously affects some other stat, but what? Given the consistency of characters' sizes and the height value, as noted by Polar, it likely has some kind of important connection. Height value and scale value both altering the same thing would be superfluous, though.

I'm not sure, it seems fairly arbitrary, I'm not certain is has anything to do with appearance.
Bowser is 33% "taller" than Ridley.

 

[EarlTamm]

Basically then, the height value in code and the scale value are not one in the same, so of course changing it for Pichu and Ridley won't make any visual changes. It obviously affects some other stat, but what? Given the consistency of characters' sizes and the height value, as noted by Polar, it likely has some kind of important connection. Height value and scale value both altering the same thing would be superfluous, though.

That is what I am thinking. They would not just have some useless value, it has to do something.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'm not sure, it seems fairly arbitrary, I'm not certain is has anything to do with appearance.
Bowser is 33% "taller" than Ridley.

Eat that, Sakurai

Ridley was never too big

But Bowser, who was in Melee, was always too big

what now


/s

 

[Deleted member]

It has to be something but it can be something that we can not see at first glance or some feature to classify characters(which I doubt because its just weird to skip some numbers and have some bigger like Bowser). Maybe gravity center for when they are sent up rolling in the air?

 

[Klimax]

Ridley was never too big

It's pretty true and since the beginning, that was a lame excuse. And since I don't believe that Sakurai had a lack of imagination, I just think that it was... a lame excuse. But since most of the people take Sakurai's words as gospel, it worked.

 

[TheYungLink]

Ridley's finally in the game now so it doesn't really matter.

Anyway thanks PolarPanda for clearing that up. I wonder what happened on Mizumi's end, it seems like they didn't mean to mislead people.

 

[Deleted member]

I always like to thing that the issue with Ridley's being too big was more regarding that Sakurai didn't find a way to implement him before that made him justice. Most of the time I remember fan pictures either sizing him down and making him quite small or making him bigger than Bowser. The way they sized him on Ultimate is a quite good implementation.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

It's pretty true and since the beginning, that was a lame excuse. And since I don't believe that Sakurai had a lack of imagination, I just think that it was... a lame excuse. But since most of the people take Sakurai's words as gospel, it worked.

"Ridley is too big" wasn't an excuse. It was Sakurai honestly explaining why Ridley isn't in the game. Let's refer to "My First Conception is My Landmark," wherein Sakurai says:

Back when I was developing Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Shigeru Miyamoto asked me, “What do you think about Pac-Man as a guest character?” “There’s no way!”, I thought to myself as I envisioned that mascot oh-so reminiscent of a pizza missing a slice. I didn’t say it out loud, of course.

But here we are, eight years later, and everything is complete. You never know what’s going to happen in this crazy world. Actually, perhaps I’d just better say nothing at all–yes, that’s a good idea.

If Sakurai doesn't see a way to faithfully represent a character, he doesn't do it, as in the case of Heihachi:

Sakurai: There were none. We basically thought of all the characters at the start of development. We decided on characters we knew we could make. However, there were a few in consideration, such as Heihachi from “Tekken.”

Interviewer: Heihachi!

Sakurai: That’s right. However, implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult…

Heihachi's movement (Tekken is a 3D fighting game) is what kept him in the concept stage. Similarly, Ridley's height kept him back because Sakurai couldn't find a way to reconcile it with the height of a playable character. This is important because most of Ridley's portrayals in the series depict him as a giant death dinosaur, and not somebody only slightly taller than Samus, with the exception being the original Metroid, which Sakurai was forced to draw upon due to the large fan demand Ridley had.

I understand taking words with a grain of salt and cynicism, but just because he brushed off a character regarded well by the community doesn't mean he's looking for "excuses" to do so. Sakurai hasn't lied to us yet, nor do I see him doing so any time soon.

 

[Idon]

>when someone new comes to the thread asking about the details of the debate.

 

[ZelDan]

TBH, I was someone who actually was kind of concerned wrt Ridley's size. Not that I didn't think it'd be completely impossible to work around or that I was completely against Ridley being in Smash or anything like that, but I did think it was a valid point, and was kinda concerned about Ridley being kind jank looking if he was smaller. he's been significantly larger than Samus in every Metroid game. Only game that wasn't the case with was the very first one on NES, but Zero Mission came along and kinda made that point moot, being a remake of the first Metroid game and all and making Ridley as huge as he usually is.

In the end Ridley did make it into Smash, and it was pretty awkward to see him being barely bigger than Samus and that took some getting used to for me. Thankfully, Sakurai did a great job representing Ridley in every other way, making him be so savage with his moveset and how he wrecked **** in his reveal trailer, that "getting used to it" has been easy, and as a fan of Metroid, It's great to see that the series has got more playable representation with him and Dark Samus.

 

[Sigran101]

Who cares if the models don't change when you edit the stat? They clearly set a base height for each character, and the base height for Brave is 13. People are getting so caught up in semantics to try and prove the height stat is meaningless. Literally all this means is that it doesn't affect the actual game when you mess with it. It doesn't mean the height stat is innacurate.

 

[Klimax]

View attachment 186965

"Ridley is too big" wasn't an excuse. It was Sakurai honestly explaining why Ridley isn't in the game. Let's refer to "My First Conception is My Landmark," wherein Sakurai says:

If Sakurai doesn't see a way to faithfully represent a character, he doesn't do it, as in the case of Heihachi:

Spoiler

Sakurai: There were none. We basically thought of all the characters at the start of development. We decided on characters we knew we could make. However, there were a few in consideration, such as Heihachi from “Tekken.”

Interviewer: Heihachi!

Sakurai: That’s right. However, implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult…

Heihachi's movement (Tekken is a 3D fighting game) is what kept him in the concept stage. Similarly, Ridley's height kept him back because Sakurai couldn't find a way to reconcile it with the height of a playable character. This is important because most of Ridley's portrayals in the series depict him as a giant death dinosaur, and not somebody only slightly taller than Samus, with the exception being the original Metroid, which Sakurai was forced to draw upon due to the large fan demand Ridley had.

I understand taking words with a grain of salt and cynicism, but just because he brushed off a character regarded well by the community doesn't mean he's looking for "excuses" to do so. Sakurai hasn't lied to us yet, nor do I see him doing so any time soon.

Yeah, i forgot to mention how the non inclusion of Heihachi in the game is also a lame excuse.
I just can't believe that Sakurai is dumb enough to not think about just having Ridley not standing straight.
Sakurai just used the dumb argument that most of the people used at the time, nothing more. And yeah I'm sure it was an excuse but he's far more intelligent than the people who really believed that "DUH RIDLEY TOO BIG".

 

[Teeb147]

We were talking about the height values, not ridley's being too big lol. But considering all the likes on those posts im guessing it's something still brewing in people's psyches, weird ;p

Who cares if the models don't change when you edit the stat? They clearly set a base height for each character, and the base height for Brave is 13. People are getting so caught up in semantics to try and prove the height stat is meaningless. Literally all this means is that it doesn't affect the actual game when you mess with it. It doesn't mean the height stat is innacurate.

Well it matters because some people (helped by mizumi) were under the impression that it didn't reflect heights, but if we could have an easy way to really check and see if it at least aligns with how they are in the game, like panda was going with, then we could say yeah ok so even if it doesnt change the heights much it still reflects the model heights somehow.

If it's a small height, then there's more chance it's a small character. So, people want to know what the deal is. It's all speculation anyway, but we still wanna know
Anyway, I gotta go, have fun talking whatever you feel like

 

[Deleted member]

Who cares if the models don't change when you edit the stat? They clearly set a base height for each character, and the base height for Brave is 13. People are getting so caught up in semantics to try and prove the height stat is meaningless. Literally all this means is that it doesn't affect the actual game when you mess with it. It doesn't mean the height stat is innacurate.

Knowing what the stat actually does helps to confirm or reject some of the things we've been discussing so far along the thread, after all we have some things that don't quite make a lot of sense considering a few characters like Bowser are supposed to be 33% taller than Ridley. If its an important or unimportant stat would help in future conversations for other characters.