[Source Gaming] Are Updates a Bad Thing?

I want you to consider my perspective to be not one of a creator, but of a player that understands the situation comprehensively. I personally am extremely grateful for these updates. I’m very thankful for the various companies that put in the effort to do this.

Of course, it would be best if perfection was attained by the release date. However, that’s only possible if you completely understand both the final product and how it’s made, like creating a plastic model by strictly following the given instructions. This simply isn’t possible.

In the 494th iteration of Masahiro Sakurai's bi-weekly Famitsu Column, Thinking about the Video Games, Sakurai discusses his thoughts on video game updates. His viewpoints can be boiled down to four topics: Modern games are extremely complex, creators can't play the completed product, the "testing power" of players is very high, and patches are a voluntary service.

• Modern games are extremely complex

Previously, I’ve described modern games as “being similar to the human body.” They have an extremely complicated design and very complex mechanisms. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say they are 100 times—no, 1,000 times more complicated than games of the past. And this massive amount of data is subject to the variance and fluctuation that digital information is susceptible to. Making sure that everything works properly is a miracle in and of itself.

For the full translated column check out the post on Source Gaming. The post was translated by soma and @Masked Man (仮面の男) within an hour of being available.

PushDustIn thinks updates are great, but shouldn't excuse developers from releasing half finished games. You can send him your favorite ice cream flavor on Twitter.

 

Let's apply your line of thinking to some other things and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Good sports rule sets should include balanced ergonomics, including not rewarding demanding physical feats and upper body strength with which to gain advantages like throwing the ball farther or running faster.

Good university classes should include not be rewarding demanding exams and essays that students with higher levels of intelligence are better at doing.

Good jobs should not be rewarding difficult tasks the require more experience and knowledge in exchange for a higher salary. It is not fair to reward higher levels of talent and experience that are not possible for many employees.

...

Get what I'm trying to say here? Your way of thinking is that of a textbook scrub. Not trying to insult you, but you fit the definition exactly.

Except this is a video game with the target audience being young children. As somebody who has attended tournaments for over 10 years, I've hated the idea that this game has became an e-sport. We're such a small percentage of the people who play smash, we are not entitled to make big decisions for the game itself.

Melee was the highest selling game cube game BY FAR. Nothing needed to be messed with but because of his stupid mentality we ended up with Brawl. Brawl would have sold just the same amount of copies whether he had ruined the gameplay or left it the same, but he's blind to this fact.

Except Melee sold 7 million while Brawl sold 12.7 million. I fail to see your point. Just because it sold well, he has to keep it the same? It's his game and he can do what he wants with it. Is the competitive community the loudest? Yes. But are we the majority of players who play the game? No, not in the slightest. I don't want to come off as a jerk, but you need to stop acting like this game was meant to be played competitively. Its your fault you decided to play it instead of another fighting game or a real sport.

 

Absolutely true; this would result in a seriously messed-up game.



I'm not entirely sure about this. I totally respect his opinion. However, most of the patches high-level players--or at least people who are competent and understand the game--request are to buff some of the lower-tiers or nerf overly strong setups or moves. I can't rightly see how this would really prevent beginners from playing. If anything, it would help everybody, especially beginners pick the game up and play and play well.
--
But, I'm not a game creator, so what do I really know?

You should be... Smash 5 directed by JimmyTheCaterpillar confirmed

 

Wow I can taste the salt from here.

Let's apply your line of thinking to some other things and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Good sports rule sets should include balanced ergonomics, including not rewarding demanding physical feats and upper body strength with which to gain advantages like throwing the ball farther or running faster.

Good university classes should include not be rewarding demanding exams and essays that students with higher levels of intelligence are better at doing.

Good jobs should not be rewarding difficult tasks the require more experience and knowledge in exchange for a higher salary. It is not fair to reward higher levels of talent and experience that are not possible for many employees.

...

Get what I'm trying to say here? Your way of thinking is that of a textbook scrub. Not trying to insult you, but you fit the definition exactly.

Blah, blah blah. No I don't get what you're saying and that makes us even because you didn't understand what I was saying- that you're the one with reason to be salty because of Sakurai's absolute power over the matter and that's why I win and you LOSE! Y-O-U L-O-S-E-! LAWL

 

Its not bad at all because at the end you get to see the tier after its all finished like melee.EX zelda was top tier until she was nerfed putting her in b

 

Updates as a concept is fine, but without an end goal you just end up like MOBA's where the metagame constantly shifts outside of player control and knowledge. Sometimes to the point where the game kills itself out of how much it moves. Take an extreme example like a majority of Brawl Mods, such as Minus or Balanced Brawl. They moved around so much and so fast people could barely adapt before the next patch was already out. That usually kills determination in a competitive field pretty quick. Granted updates via online such as Sm4sh won't have problems of continuity like mods do, but it can easily drop from being a competitive game if even top players don't get a chance to adapt fast enough before a new patch is on the horizon. So long as it's limited to a set (6 months-year) frequency and it has a goal to reach for a final patch then it can work well.

 

The problem with updates in this game is that Sakurai tries to balance the game for casual players, because he thinks balancing the game for competitive play would make it difficult for beginners and casual players, and I am pretty sure someone who does't want to play the game competitively won't care about balance.

 

Blah, blah blah. No I don't get what you're saying and that makes us even because you didn't understand what I was saying- that you're the one with reason to be salty because of Sakurai's absolute power over the matter and that's why I win and you LOSE! Y-O-U L-O-S-E-! LAWL

You're obviously new here. Lawl.

 

You're obviously new here. Lawl.

When someone uses the "Salty" meme/buzzword, that's how I reply. That's the reply they DESERVE.

 

I smell a flame war beginning to take place...or maybe that's just the usual display of Smashboards users doing what they do best, give the competitive community a bad name...

 

I do and don't agree with Sakurai.
Outside of relatively large buffs, casuals don't notice very many changes within the game because their play hasn't evolved to a point where they're able to make the most out of every aspect of a character.
Even so, I guess I can see where he's coming from, it just hurts because if he'd just buff a few characters to even catch up with Mario's frame data, or give more characters tools to work around what areas they're lacking in, it'd be so much better.

It'd also be nice if Samus's dsmash did anything, but maybe that's asking too much.

 

When someone uses the "Salty" meme/buzzword, that's how I reply. That's the reply they DESERVE.

While the use of "salty" is way over done and makes most people look like an elitist douche...

and that's why I win and you LOSE! Y-O-U L-O-S-E-! LAWL

This sort of response looks like a school yard debate. Like seriously... Looks very 10 years old'ish. The fact you pulled the "I win/you lose" card is evidence enough that you actually didn't win. For the record, I don't agree with Dylan but, then again, I don't agree with this entire thread.

 

Come on broo, you have to admit some of the changes that they do make no sense, like given a move 1% more damage, or giving fox laser like 2 less ending laggg? really fox? why not falco he really needs some less ending lagg in his lasers!...also suited samus has some of her moves thats plain suck like her Dsmash (this smash dosent even kill in 180%)....i mean there are some very obvious changes he could make to help the lower tier characters and game per-say and he is just complaining about how it would affect casual players...casual players wont even notice any change....Sakurai thinking is just ilogical and dumb, i do thank him for smash but his thinking pisses me off sometimes

Come on, that's a bit childish. Whether those changes make sense or not is up to personal opinion, but most people would argue that it was necessary for Fox to get those 2 frames off his Blaster due to leaving him considerably vulnerable even at long distances; Falco on the other hand has hitstun to compensate, you just simply can't get happy trigger as before.

And before you go on complaining about him not doing nothing for the game and using Samus as an example, let me remind you that in the last couple of updates most "weaker" characters received a generous amount of buffs; Ike, DK, Falco, Charizard, Robin, Marth, Palutena, Megaman, Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, etc. Yeah, I know Samus is still due but it's fallacious to keep using her as an example for evidence of his "dumb and illogical" thinking while being selective and ignoring the effort they did on the roster in general in the last patches. You'd do well to stop speaking out of ignorance next time.

 

Updates are bad in terms of developing a competitive metagame.

Of course in the early stage of a game super broken stuff may be missed by playtesters and needs to be patched out.

But in the case of super smash bros. patches are really not necessary. Melee is still the most widely enjoyed smash game (for competitive smashers I'm not talking about salty casuals) and in my opinion the best and most balanced of all smash games (Yeah, tires exit, get over it. I'm saying it's balanced when it comes to the top tiers / high tiers vs the skill level of the players)

Imagine if melee had been subject to patches.... I can guarantee that either wavedashing, or being able to jump out of shine in 1 frame would have been removed. Marth would have been nerfed super early in the Ken / Azen glory days, shiek would have been nerfed, and the scariest thing is what if they had nerfed falcon after seeing Isai run a train on people with triple knee combos. I shudder at the thought.

Until smash 4 stops getting constantly patched it won't have a chance to truly develop as a competitive game.

Same thing with PM. I think the fact that there will be no further patches or updates is a good thing not a bad thing.

Basically, just leave smash the way it is, or better yet bring it back to the way it was. Every attempt to change thing in smash brothers since brawl / smash 4 (gameplay wise) has made the game thousands of times worse. They had it right with smash 64, they improved on it with melee, and it's all been downhill since.

In other fighting games like street fighter patches are a good thing, the developers look at the highest level players and patch out stuff that gives too much of an advantage, change frame data, etc.

In smash, especially smash 4 the feedback they look at is not from top players. It's salty scrub casuals. If enough scrubs collectivley whine about something (hoo hah for example) it gets removed, and that ****ing sucks. Scrubs should not have the power to influence developers to nerf things, it's a recipe for creating an extremely boring and stagnant game, which I'm sorry to say is the case with smash 4. The only update I would agree with would be a complete Project M style work over to bring back the real gameplay we know and love from smash 64 and melee.

........................................................**** you actually got some good points.

 

I mean sure you can say that updates are bad for a competitive metagame.

But if you still want Rosalina's down smash to have like ten frames of ending lag and Shiek having a solid kill move with back air and killing you off stage with Bouncing Fish at about 70% then das koo.

 

in my opinion, the updates saved smash 4 from being brawl 2.0. More balance, less glitches, more characters, and more stages. Yeah not everything is perfect, like the unnecessary nerf to rob's up throw and greninja, but the updates are still a great thing.

 

I smell a flame war beginning to take place...or maybe that's just the usual display of Smashboards users doing what they do best, give the competitive community a bad name...

Agreed

Also, I agree with Sakurai on updates definitely needed for today's complex games

 

Come on, that's a bit childish. Whether those changes make sense or not is up to personal opinion, but most people would argue that it was necessary for Fox to get those 2 frames off his Blaster due to leaving him considerably vulnerable even at long distances; Falco on the other hand has hitstun to compensate, you just simply can't get happy trigger as before.

And before you go on complaining about him not doing nothing for the game and using Samus as an example, let me remind you that in the last couple of updates most "weaker" characters received a generous amount of buffs; Ike, DK, Falco, Charizard, Robin, Marth, Palutena, Megaman, Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, etc. Yeah, I know Samus is still due but it's fallacious to keep using her as an example for evidence of his "dumb and illogical" thinking while being selective and ignoring the effort they did on the roster in general in the last patches. You'd do well to stop speaking out of ignorance next time.

Even with the hitstun, its fairly easy to punish Falcos Laser, he could use some frames off that move, Fox was a good character when those changes happened Falco was the one needing help, witch he did get eventually (but still not to his lasers) and yes most of lower end character did as well...but still, changes like adding or substracting 1 more frame or 1% more to a move, these are changes that happen and i feel make no sense becasue its almost unotisable... but whatever your mostly right, good changes have come and will come with time.

 

Even with the hitstun, its fairly easy to punish Falcos Laser, he could use some frames off that move, Fox was a good character when those changes happened Falco was the one needing help, witch he did get eventually (but still not to his lasers) and yes most of lower end character did as well...but still, changes like adding or substracting 1 more frame or 1% more to a move, these are changes that happen and i feel make no sense becasue its almost unotisable... but whatever your mostly right, good changes have come and will come with time.

Fox got a laser buff to compensate for the nerf to his jab setups, which took away his infinite he had on some characters and kill confirms. And changes like 1% or 3 frames can make the difference of barely being at kill percent or living, or being able to beat an opponents move or not. For perspective, five frames off the ending lag of Falco's blaster would make it comparable to Mario's Fireball.

 

Updates are awesome. They add new things and fix glitches. Nothing wrong with updates imo

 

"That’s all, but a final thought. Even if post-release updates greatly increase the quality of a game, it’s pointless if players have already stopped playing the game. On the other hand, looking at balancing, you cannot simply make adjustments by blindly accepting feedback from the Internet. For example, we could balance our game based on what high-level players say, but if that meant beginner-level players would no longer be able to play, that wouldn’t be an acceptable outcome."

Sakurai is the most contradictory person I have ever encountered.

Casuals are notorious for abandoning games quickly, so why make an update for players who aren't even playing anymore?

 

The updates have been a mostly positive thing so far. There were a couple of unnecessary nerfs, but I believe that the nerfs to the top tier characters were warranted and the changes to dodges and shields make for a better playing experience. However at this point I am of the opinion that none of the top tiers are overwhelming anymore and the focus needs to be shifted to buffing the lesser characters. Hopefully the game designers eventually realize which characters actually need work (Samus, Mewtwo, Zelda, Palutena etc), but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Most of the balance philosophy of league asks questions of counter play, how strong the tools are and what ones are too weak.

Smash 4 follows that mostly and so does PM when it comes to changes at times. This is also is a question of core issues.

Fox's kit in melee is an old Lee Sin problem, he was too good at a lot of things and pushing everyone else out. Jack of all trades and a master of a few. Does he reward good tech skill like Lee Sin? Oh yes he does.

Was either fair in their respective times? (Season 2 - Season 4 for Lee Sin) hell no.

League tries to trim power when too strong and make characters unique in tools and options. Smash 4 development I recall Sakurai saying he was aiming for that as well.

Diddy was an issue he had one of the strongest low percent kill moves randomly on his Uair. People did try to play around it, but the tool in itself was too strong in itself.

Letting it play out and keeping an eye on it is what League devs say a lot. They still instant nerf or buff when something is clearly wrong.

Leaving Fox alone of ported from Melee would be a bad idea, that creates large power creep and is a lot more dev work than bringing him back on line, PM 3.02.

I agree with learning to adapt and letting it sit for a bit, but not in clear outlier cases.

That was very well written.

 

"That’s all, but a final thought. Even if post-release updates greatly increase the quality of a game, it’s pointless if players have already stopped playing the game. On the other hand, looking at balancing, you cannot simply make adjustments by blindly accepting feedback from the Internet. For example, we could balance our game based on what high-level players say, but if that meant beginner-level players would no longer be able to play, that wouldn’t be an acceptable outcome."

Sakurai is the most contradictory person I have ever encountered.

Casuals are notorious for abandoning games quickly, so why make an update for players who aren't even playing anymore?

You probably don't know that many people in the first place then. And actually, the colored portions in that quote don't really contradict each other out, seems like you are making a stretch out of it. Though I'm not surprised by the lack of reading comprehension.

 

Updates are a good thing... when they're DECENT and don't ignore blatant problems.

 

Im still wating for an Update where they add shadow as a sonic skin xD

 

Updates are a good thing... when they're DECENT and don't ignore blatant problems.

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the patch notes threads.

 

I've seen some comments here and there talking about how Melee sold 7m while Brawl sold 12.7m ( Jigglymaster ), however, one must realize that the only reason Brawl got as many sales as it did was because, one, the Wii was more popular than the gamecube, and two, because a big bulk of competitive Melee players probably thought that Brawl was going to be even better than it was.

Brawl didn't earn those sales; it conned us into giving it those sales.

 

I wouldn't say it "conned" us; rather, it just had the advantage of being on a more popular console.

 

The problem Smash 4 has compared to Melee in this regard is, on a competitive level, Sm4sh is much less tech heavy of a game. This makes "good/overpowered" characters much harder to outplay. I think it can be even more apparent at a casual level at times. This doesn't seem to have been talked about in this thread yet and I think it should. Balance patches in this game may be more necessary than in Melee. Simply because it isn't nearly as deep of a game to begin with. A high skill ceiling is absolutely needed to make a long lasting competitive or even casual game.

Patches may be needed to increase the longevity of the game. The competitive scene may have an exhausted meta game before long if patches are discontinued.

 

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the patch notes threads.

Zelda got slight buffs, but it wasn't enough.

Samus's changes were completely unrelated to her problems.

And most irritatingly, Mewtwo didn't get ANY changes whatsoever.

 

While updates are nice, I'd love to see what the meta would have been like without any updates.

 

Might've already been said but would you like to live in a world where Diddy Hoo Hah isn't patched out?

 

I've seen some comments here and there talking about how Melee sold 7m while Brawl sold 12.7m ( Jigglymaster ), however, one must realize that the only reason Brawl got as many sales as it did was because, one, the Wii was more popular than the gamecube, and two, because a big bulk of competitive Melee players probably thought that Brawl was going to be even better than it was.

Brawl didn't earn those sales; it conned us into giving it those sales.

I'm not trying to prove that Brawl is better because it sold more. I'm trying to prove that one cannot say one game is better than the other because of their sales alone.

 

I think the real objective should be to have fun and accept that not everything will be balanced, even when the patches stop coming.

Also, I think it'd be natural for Sakurai and the development team(s) to mostly listen to the Japanese scene, with it being much closer to home and all. Translation and all that.

 

To be honest, I sincerely think that Smash 4 should've just been an altered Brawl that was "edited" with PSA and BrawlBox (to save money), and given new models (via porting). That way, "Smash 4" could still be released (and for less), while Nintendo could work on making another Smash Bros. game that was actually competitively viable (outside of the neutral).

 

To be honest, I sincerely think that Smash 4 should've just been an altered Brawl that was "edited" with PSA and BrawlBox (to save money), and given new models (via porting). That way, "Smash 4" could still be released (and for less), while Nintendo could work on making another Smash Bros. game that was actually competitively viable (outside of the neutral).

But the competitive scene is like 5% of the people who play Smash. So Nintendo should throw out a cheaply made mod instead of the high quality product Smash is known for and then spend more time and effort to cater to an extremely tiny amount of players? How does that logic work?

 

But the competitive scene is like 5% of the people who play Smash. So Nintendo should throw out a cheaply made mod instead of the high quality product Smash is known for and then spend more time and effort to cater to an extremely tiny amount of players? How does that logic work?

If Nintendo does the mod well enough, people may not even know that it's "Brawl", therefor, allowing them the same amount of sales that Smash 4 (or at least it's Wii U half) had, especially since, after all, Smash 4 technically is a Brawl mod. As for the newer version, it could still have casual-supportive features, however, the core gameplay would be more competitive than casual, with the remedy being to use items (for beginners). That way, everyone wins, plus, Nintendo would get more money, since, a casual neither has the patience nor the dedication for add-on content (a new thing Nintendo is trying), but competitive players do.

(The New Smash 4 would be Wii U exclusive)

So, let's just say things go like this
--
Normal Smash 4
3DS: 40.00 x 7,370,000 = $294,800,000
Wii U: 60.00 x 4,000,300 = $240,018,000
Combined: $534,818,000
(Hypothetical Terminal Numbers) DLC: $870,000
Overall Sales: $535,688,000

Hypothetical Modded Brawl/New Smash 4 (fake numbers)
Modded Brawl: 50.00 x 8,120,000 = $406,000,000
New Smash 4: 60.00 x 5,760,000 = $345,600,000
Combined: $751,600,000
(Hypothetical Terminal Numbers) DLC: $1,245,000
Overall Sales: $752,845,000
---
Explanations
Modded Brawl: The modded Brawl sales were given the numbers they were because, one has to realize that the Smash Bros. series is still popular, and most people would love to have a touched up Brawl, not to mention if it was covered up well enough, it could appear new. This, combined with the fact that the game could be played either through Wii mode, or a Wii U format, could help to further increase it's sales, though, to be fair, I didn't make them quite as high as Brawl due to the obvious fact of it being a rehash.

New Smash 4: Some may wonder why this game gets more sales than the Wii U version did, and that's simply because you have less options... yup, I said it. Think about it; why spend $60.00 for a wire-bound game for an unpopular console, when you can instead opt for a cheaper, portable version of the same game, complete with Smash Run? the very existence of Smash 3DS is actually taking away from Smash 4's sales (or at least income) as a whole, because the 3DS makes the Wii U version unnecessary, considering that you can simply get a cheaper, portable version for a console that you already have, which, again, is ultimately why the New Smash 4 would make more money than the current Smash 4; due to the fact that it would require many to get Wii U's, since that would be the only option, the hard-fact money that the New Smash 4 makes would also be accompanied by indirect-boost from the Wii U's, therefor not only benefiting Sakurai, but Nintendo as a whole too.

And even if, even if, the sales between the two were exactly the same, the DLC alone for the hypothetical half would still make it outperform the casual version, and that, is why that "5%" is infinitely more important that the other 95%.

 

Zelda got slight buffs, but it wasn't enough.

Samus's changes were completely unrelated to her problems.

And most irritatingly, Mewtwo didn't get ANY changes whatsoever.

And yet, most "low tier" characters received a plethora of buffs, overpowered things like the Hoo Hah got nerfed and stuff like Wario's momentum and Yoshi's eggport got removed. So considering the updates less than decent when they have fixed a number of issues so far is just a blatant lie. Again, check the Patch Notes threads.

But the competitive scene is like 5% of the people who play Smash. So Nintendo should throw out a cheaply made mod instead of the high quality product Smash is known for and then spend more time and effort to cater to an extremely tiny amount of players? How does that logic work?

Logic is not one of his strong points. Remember how people earlier in this thread expressed their worries about the dev team listening to scrubs? You are looking at one of them. He disses the Neutral as bad for the game because he is bad at it, and due to this considers Ganon and Link OP characters. Thank goodness that the world hasn't sunk yet to new lows to the point of listening to nonsense like that.

 

And yet, most "low tier" characters received a plethora of buffs, overpowered things like the Hoo Hah got nerfed and stuff like Wario's momentum and Yoshi's eggport got removed. So considering the updates less than decent when they have fixed a number of issues so far is just a blatant lie. Again, check the Patch Notes threads.

...What does that have to do with Zelda, Samus, and Mewtwo?

 

...What does that have to do with Zelda, Samus, and Mewtwo?

Three characters not having been buffed yet, doesn't mean that one can simply ignore what the team has done so far.