Sonic vs Olimar help

[Napilopez]

Guys, can we drop the argument? I'm kind of getting tired of this arguing with other boards all the time. We need to know our opponents if we actualyl want to learn something. To Fino: I understand your beliefs that Oli has the advantage, but the reason some of us react aggressively is that we are very tired of people coming into this board with misconceptions about how Sonic plays and his abilities. This however, is very understandable, as there are very few of us Sonics that take really make use of Sonic's lesser known abilities. Not to mention that most of us either have great knowledge of Sonic's abilities, but less technical skill as a smasher, or the other way around, unlike so many other character boards. I myself only started played smash seriously since brawls release, so I'm still a scrub.

I do agree with Roo010030000YY!!!! That you haven't presented enough straight facts, however Fino. Perhaps someone with knowledge of this mtchup should play you on WiFi to at least get an idea of the matchup better from both sides? I would do it, because I myself need experience against Oli, but I can't play during the weekdays D:

Oh and no one answered Finos question of what ASC shield cancel is. ASC is an aerial spin charge(DownB), which has decent, although very sporadic priority, combo's very well. Just holding forward automatically gets you 18% damage unstaled, and it combos very easily into another aerial for 30+. And its not hard to pull of either. The perfect ASC combo can yield up to about 50 damage, although I have never seen anyone pull this off in an actual match except for on a shield, which diminishes it well. Furthermore, ASC is a great feint, because you can continue to hold forward and go into an SDR(Spin Dash Roll) or hold down shield upon landing in order to cancel the ASC with a shield. This is what cat was talking about as a viable approach against oli, since oli I believe is relatively weak against diagonal approaches if he's on the ground(which Is where most oli's will usually be, if I'm not mistaken), and ASC is just that. If you attempt to shield the ASC, Sonic could cancel the ASC into a shield and grab you instead. Once Sonic grabs you, he can begin to take control of the match. Fast fall bairs also work well in this matchup becuse it's hitbox stays out for a nice time, and its quite disjointed.

However, some fundamental properties about oli still stand. He's short, thus his hurtbox is smaller, and its more more difficult to land a kill. However he's also light, which comes to Sonic's aid. Sonic can't rely on his grab game as much as he can in other matchups, but once he does get a grab, through an ASC or however, then he can take control.

About Sonic gimping olimar:

1). How so? I haven't seen sonic with incredible ledge game, so I wouldn't know. Whistle, fair/bair stage spikes, Uairs, purple pikmin, and tether spike threat are all things in olimar's arsenal to get back on stage.

i am well aware of those tools Olimar has, but those are just tools. They are not specific properties of the character that make him so invulnerable to gimps. Sonic can gimp people easily and safely with a spring. If olimar is hanging from the edge by any chance, a simple spring bomb could be his doom, and it comes out quick. Spring also has invincibility frames for a full jumps height, so Olimar is unlikely to hit Sonic out of it. Also, you can't use fair and bair for stage spike examples, when Sonic can stage spike you with Fair, Bair, Dair, Nair, and even spring(the most likely of these being Bair). As I believe I said before, like all tether recovery characters, Olimar is succeptable to bair stage spikes. This is not a specific thing about the character matchup, however Sonic can cover alot of ground, really quickly, and a bair stage spike is very viable with Sonic because of his speed. He covers a fourth of FD in less than 15 frames, he could get off stage to bair you in less time than it takes for his usmash to come out.

But more than anything, its the simple fact of how good Sonic's recovery is. Sonic can go very far out to catch olimar. If sonic can hit olimar just once offstage, something that Sonic can do quite easily, chances are he will be able to gimp olimar without risking getting killed himself.

EDIT:

Wow that was long. Also, aerial priority is always annoying to talk about. I play a pretty good airgame, though. Since aerial priority is determined by hitbox vs hurtbox only, this is a weird issue. Oli's Nair comes out more quickly, so in that case it will hit the Bair. If the bair is timed so that it comes out at the same time as olis Nair, and the characters are close enough, then they will trade hits. However, if the Sonic spaces the bair well enough, because of its disjointedness, the bair will beat out the nair.

And I agree as well about the grab point, although it depends highly on the varying style of the Sonic. Ground based and SDR based Sonic's will be totally destroyed by Oli's grab. it has TLs range, on average, but it stays out forever and can be used over and over again. Now Sonic can approach from the air with an ASC, but thats just once safe approach. Sonic basically is limited to fewer safe approaches against Oli, which include ASC and a well spaced Bairs. Even my beloved spinshot(a long range jump about half of FD that has a speed near Sonics running speed) can be punished easily by oli, which is something rare because of how versatile it is. I find it funny how Sonic really doesn't have trouble with projectile spammers, but he does tremendously against Oli's grab.

 

[Tenki]

You guys are the ones attacking each other. I'm just enlightening the lurker.

btw, a good Olimar will either tether above/level with the ledge, and also pull himself in almost immediately to avoid getting stage spiked.

WAC is a whistle armor cancel, and I think that's what lets lolimarangers attack or airdodge right after taking advantage of his down-B's super armor frames.

 

[Napilopez]

You guys are the ones attacking each other. I'm just enlightening the lurker.

btw, a good Olimar will either tether above/level with the ledge, and also pull himself in almost immediately to avoid getting stage spiked.

WAC is a whistle armor cancel, and I think that's what lets lolimarangers attack or airdodge right after taking advantage of his down-B's super armor frames.

Incase it sounded like I was, I wasn't referring to you Tenki about the attacking of teh Fino. I'm just trying to have an intelligent discussion, because I dislike this matchup ='(

About the anti-gimpingness points you brought up about olimar, all of it is true, but what I was getting at is that Sonic can deal with those things relatively well. Like olimar can pill himself "almost" immediately, key word being almost. Sonic is quick, obviously lol, so he can take advantage of that tiny window before Oli pulls himself up better than probably any char. Its also usually not too hard to guess when oli will use his tether recovery, so in a sense Sonic can anticipate it and try to bair stage spike. Its player choice, but its a choice aided by Sonics abilities. If sonic can send oli far enough(which he can afford because of his superior recovery), oli will have more trouble getting back. Insta edge-hog is also very good, and one of my best tool against oli, because I can be far enough from the ledge so that they wont expect it, then go and grab on to the ledge and be safe. Even if Sonic is hit off the ledge by Oli's upB, thanks to his spring, chances are he'll make it back. One thing from my own experience I'd like to point out, is that when Sonic gets oli off stage, chances are that Oli has less pikmin available to him than he would like, because Sonic in general eats pikmin. A smart Oli will of course try to ensure he has enough pikmin at all times, but its something to keep in mind.

tldr: Oli has many ways to avoid being gimped, but Sonic can get around these fairly well, and can still punish and gimp Oli. Overall, sonic has a better offstage game, imo. At worst, if Sonic tries to gimp oli, he will get some damage, but will be to get on back on stage.

This is not at all referring to the advantages Oli has onstage, just pointing out the advantages Sonic has offstage.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic is quick, obviously lol, so he can take advantage of that tiny window before Oli pulls himself up better than probably any char. Its also usually not too hard to guess when oli will use his tether recovery, so in a sense Sonic can anticipate it and try to bair stage spike. .

Sonic is slower in the air.

I'm serious, olimar can use tether when he's like, the same height as the ledge he's trying to get, and get pulled back before you can hit him. The only way you can hit him is if you're like already about to hit him and then he decides to up-B.

 

[Fino]

Olimar's tether has a huge sweet spot, and as for gimping it, most olimar's now will WAC a tether, immediately pull up, and do some sort of ledge game.
To broaden that out, olimar's whistle has super armor frames and you can cancel the whistle into another attack, meaning you have super armor during the opening frames of your attack. This means, when I whistle and the tether, the opening frames of the tether will have super armor, and then snapping up immediately gives me invincible frames. Weird thing about oli though, is you can go from a hanging tether straight to a ledge attack, and your ledge attack will have invincibility frames (very few).... not to mention awkward range.

Though this may sound ridiculous... it's not by any means unstoppable. I've been hit out of this once, and that was by a snake player.... he hit me as olimar was pulling up (insane small time frame). To add insult to injury, it was a box KO. lol.

Anyways, I do agree... olimar is easy to gimp, but it gets to the point where you have to know how to do it. idk, that sounded lame, but do you get what I'm sayin?

Also, open to any sonic friendlies... though I'm not to fond of wifi, I'll do it to better know the match up (I can't pass up the opportunity ^_^)


~Fino

 

[Tenki]

Also, open to any sonic friendlies... though I'm not to fond of wifi, I'll do it to better know the match up (I can't pass up the opportunity ^_^)


~Fino

I'll play for the lulzzzz

 

[MarKO X]

I learned a lot here...

But about the upB sweetspot... isn't that sweetspot negated if someone is already on the ledge?

 

[Fino]

I'll play for the lulzzzz

I'll PM you

I learned a lot here...

But about the upB sweetspot... isn't that sweetspot negated if someone is already on the ledge?

Yes, but olimar has a lot of tricksies he can use to get people off the edge. Purple pikmin toss, fair/bair (stage spike), uair.
For Mind games he can toss pikmin (which deal damage) which most people will pull up off the edge to get those suckas off, or fall and hope they pull up early (a LOT of people do this btw) and max out the range of the tether (some stages he can be off the screen on the bottom and still hit with the tether.... yoshi's for example).

If all else fails, there's always the constant threat of a tether spike.


~Fino

 

[Umby]

So I hear ******** threads in a ******** forum are ********.

Sonic ***** Pikmin throw. That's a good enough reason to give Sonic some slight credit here. Just no matchup points.

Olimar > Sonic on the ground. However, Sonic has a few tricks through a versatile aerial approach (you know, because bair and ASC ****). Does this mean, you can just spam spinshot -> bair/Nair all day? No. Usmash and Fair hurt too much.

See the controversy in discussing this matchup comes from the general assumptions that:

1) Sonic gets horrendously ***** by EVERY other character in Brawl just because he's Sonic.

2) Sonic's ground game gets shut down completely by Olimar.

3) Sonic negating Pikmin throw should be grounds for giving Sonic a decent matchup ratio.

4) Olimar's notorious gimpability vs Sonic's notorious gimping ability should also be grounds for giving Sonic a decent matchup ratio.


1) Sonic does NOT get horrendously ***** by EVERY other character in Brawl just because he's Sonic. He actually has a number of good or even matchups. Only 3 characters completely counter Sonic, and those are Wario, Luigi, and Meta Knight (yes, Sonic boards, I said Meta Knight).

2) Sonic's ground game actually DOES get shut down by Olimar, but he still has some key points on the ground (hyphen smash for example. Anything else I could mention is theory based on my personal playstyle).

3) Sonic negating Pikmin throw decelerates how much damage Sonic takes from Olimar, but in no real way contributes to him getting more points in the matchup ratio.

4) Gimping should definitely be taken into serious consideration in this case. Just look at how advantageous shinespiking with Fox was in Melee. Seriously, in my opinion, Sonic's damage output is considerably lower than Olimar's, and in the race to take off the next stop, Sonic's main outlet for keeping up will be to get Olimar off the stage and keep him off the stage. Done right, this can cripple Olimar, since he is a tether grabber (yes, we know tether grabbers have ways of getting past their weakness of getting edgehogged, that can be said about many other characters who have their own weaknesses)


If you want my opinion, I call it 60:40 Olimar. For one thing, I don't trust the Sonic boards with matchup ratios (Dedede at 55:45? No fucking way). The other thing is that even if Sonic CAN crush Olimar if he gets past the faggot range issue, doing so is not an easy task. Just look at the Marth boards' Jigglypuff discussion. A guy calls it a close matchup simply because "if you get inside Marth's comfort zone, it's an easier matchup." Fact is, it's not easy to get inside, therefore the matchup is NOT close. I don't care how much you love ASC. To place it correctly and not get shield grabbed, you have to be crafty. I don't care how much you love bair. Usmash will **** you occasionally. To be honest, I can't believe no one is mentioning Nair. You still can't abuse it, but it opens up so much in Olimar's defense you will shit bricks.

Fino, I appreciate you offering points in discussion, and this is in no way meant to offend you, but making assumptions about Sonic's movesets and ATs without even knowing their properties or what they are even used to do presents invalid statements and poor speculation on your part. You don't have to know how to play your opponent's character, but you should understand what moves in particular are a threat to you. I mean, I couldn't give two shits about learning to do Yoshi's Dragonic Reverse, but if that means his attacks come out in quicker succession, I'm to be aware of its properties so I know whether or not it's of a particular threat to me and how I should counter it.

 

[Tenki]

1) Sonic does NOT get horrendously ***** by EVERY other character in Brawl just because he's Sonic. He actually has a number of good or even matchups. Only 3 characters completely counter Sonic, and those are Wario, Luigi, and Meta Knight (yes, Sonic boards, I said Meta Knight). {1}


If you want my opinion, I call it 60:40 Olimar. For one thing, I don't trust the Sonic boards with matchup ratios ({2} Dedede at 55:45? No fucking way).
...
To be honest, I can't believe no one is mentioning Nair. You still can't abuse it, but it opens up so much in Olimar's defense you will shit bricks. {3}

{1} No more Peach?

{2} lol at least it's not in Sonic's advantage anymore, like originally thought in the IvanEva chart.

{3} Olimar's N-air is good, but I'm pretty sure you're talking about Sonic's N-air. Does Sonic's N-air beat pikmin attacks? I've been afraid to use it vs pikmin attacks lol.

 

[Napilopez]

=/
About to go into a personal semi-rant:
I know we have to, but mentioning matchup numbers outside of the matchup thread as a kind of community consensus kind of irks me. Sonic's playstyles are much too varied. Yes I know the drill with matchup discussions not being depending on playstyle and blah blah, but sometimes for me, personally, its like seriously? Sonics have that much trouble against MK? Wario? Luigi? Marth? DK even? And lol, I dont think that Vs. Dedede ratio is very off. 45:55 at worst, probably 50:50. Even that match-up on paper would dictate it being somewhere around even, as Sonic's strengths and abilities are more prominent against Dedede. But I won't get into detail.

There are much worst match-ups for me, but unfortunately thats dictated by my own playstyle, which obviously doesn't really count in match-up discussions. I guess I just disagree about calling those characters "complete" counters.

Anyways, that has nothing to do with this discussion, nor does anything I said really matter, its just a mini-pointless rant. But yea, back to the ongoing discussion.

So yea. I have some fundamental disagreements with you there umby. Why doesn't negating pikmin have to do with the match-up? Its one of Olis main assets. Sonic, unlike several other chars, doesn't have to stop moving just to get pikmin off, and won't be as succeptible to like a gagillion damage from white pikmin. I'd say thats a significant plus. Its like characters with reflectors facing falco. They will still get hit every now and then, perhaps even often if the Falco is smart, but having a reflector is still an asset.

I thought someone said characters with a tether grab can't shieldgrab ASC? I'm not sure if thats true, but just pointing it out. Come to think of it, I can't ever remember being grabbed out of an ASC against Oli. But Idk.

Bair works well against Oli, because usmash is so vertical, and you are likely to be hitting with a bair at a diagonal angle.

But those are my only irks. You are right that it still isnt easy to get close enough, like you alluded with the jigglypuff marth discussion. Fact is, like I mentioned before, Olimar can beat most of Sonic's approaches, and Sonic becomes quite limited in his approach options. And if you have less options to approach, you tend to become more predictable, making it easier for Oli to counter accordingly. Oh and you're right about Sonics Nair, its extremely quick, nasty, and has a long lasting hitbox.

Can we call it 57:43 olimar? Lolaso.

 

[R4ZE]

the thing i love about arguing with ppl that don't main sonic.... is NONE OF THEM know what ASC is...


and since literally ASC is probobly the best approach for sonic to use against olimar, i can't argue with these olimar mains... because they dont even understand my main point.

and they certainly haven't seen it in action...


you know actually... i just want to look at this whole... sonic vs whoever thing in general...
it always ends up that "whoever" mains come on our board and tell us: "LOLZ sonic r terrible"

but really.... they have probly played against sonics a handful of times, and probobly either sum1 who doesent main sonic, and is joking, or sum1 who is terrible at either the game, sonic, or both.


SO HOW WOULD OTHER MAINS HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF SONIC's MATCHUP??

 

[Fino]

but really.... they have probly played against sonics a handful of times, and probobly either sum1 who doesent main sonic, and is joking, or sum1 who is terrible at either the game, sonic, or both.


SO HOW WOULD OTHER MAINS HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF SONIC's MATCHUP??

So, in your opinion, you can only be good at smash if you main sonic, or are you trying to say that only good people can only joke that their character has an advantage?
I'm confused, because I know plenty of good people who don't main sonic AND believe that their character has an advantage over him. With your logic, they must suck a whole lot.


~Fino

 

[Browny]

that friends only pic seems suitable about now

Fino you are failing horribly at simple comprehension. Stop trying to be funny and stay on topic, for all our sakes

 

[Umby]

{1} No more Peach?

{2} lol at least it's not in Sonic's advantage anymore, like originally thought in the IvanEva chart.

{3} Olimar's N-air is good, but I'm pretty sure you're talking about Sonic's N-air. Does Sonic's N-air beat pikmin attacks? I've been afraid to use it vs pikmin attacks lol.

Peach isn't a counter, as originally thought. The way the matchup works is that Peach shuts down Sonic's ground game if you give her room. Peach also has aerial superiority. However, Sonic can shut down her air game by stopping it before it starts (Nair and Fair are great).

I was referring to Sonic's nair as an approach vs Olimar. It's not the greatest, but it probably has the greatest success rate of getting inside Olimar's defenses, especially since you can land behind him and suffer almost no lag with it. At this point, a number of Olimars will have tried to shield grab, to which you respond with a pivot grab or ftilt.

=/
About to go into a personal semi-rant:
I know we have to, but mentioning matchup numbers outside of the matchup thread as a kind of community consensus kind of irks me. Sonic's playstyles are much too varied. Yes I know the drill with matchup discussions not being depending on playstyle and blah blah, but sometimes for me, personally, its like seriously? Sonics have that much trouble against MK? Wario? Luigi? Marth? DK even?

Sorry Napi. Wario and Luigi are horrible Sonic matchups. MK is pretty bad too if we're talking about high level play. DK is not AS bad as the previously mentioned, but he's still pretty tough. 60:40 Donkey Kong at best. Marth is controversial, but on pure statistics, Marth takes a pretty good chunk of advantage.

And lol, I dont think that Vs. Dedede ratio is very off. 45:55 at worst, probably 50:50. Even that match-up on paper would dictate it being somewhere around even, as Sonic's strengths and abilities are more prominent against Dedede. But I won't get into detail.

On paper:

Sonic's Advantages vs Dedede
- Speed
- Usmash *****
- Random dthrow spike on Battlefield's right edge
- Fair will probably shield poke
- Spin Charge ***** Waddle Dee Throw

Dedede's Advantages vs Sonic
- Better Range
- Better off stage game
- Perfectly timed CG can NOT be escaped
- Sonic won't kill early enough with regular KO tactics
- Sonic cannot gimp Dedede's recovery easily enough to make up for his KO disabilities
- Even if you get inside Dedede's defenses, D3 has only like 1 or 2 frames of vulnerability after his sidestep, so Sonics grabs are almost completely out of the question. Almost.
- Dedede kills you earlier because utilt OoS is a monster.
- Inhale stops Spin Dash/Charge cold (though hyphen smash kinda counters Inhale).

Dedede has a larger advantage than you'd think.

So yea. I have some fundamental disagreements with you there umby. Why doesn't negating pikmin have to do with the match-up? Its one of Olis main assets. Sonic, unlike several other chars, doesn't have to stop moving just to get pikmin off, and won't be as succeptible to like a gagillion damage from white pikmin. I'd say thats a significant plus. Its like characters with reflectors facing falco. They will still get hit every now and then, perhaps even often if the Falco is smart, but having a reflector is still an asset.

Good question. The way I look at is that without Pikmin throw, Olimar's damage output is decreased heavily. But not using Pikmin throw can be both a blessing and a curse.

First off, Sonic loses an opening to attack an opponent that's still in the process of projectile spamming (save when you're hit by purple Pikmin). So instead of dash attacking during a Pikmin throw for free damage, you're getting spammed with fsmashes and grabs. That leads into the second point, where Olimar's main outlets for killing probably won't be an fsmash or throw. So at the cost of making maybe about two moves go stale, he leaves all his other KO options fresh. So yeah, Sonic's avoided racking up damage faster than normal, but in the process he's still running into a brick wall and negating Pikmin throw has only barely made a difference.

I thought someone said characters with a tether grab can't shieldgrab ASC? I'm not sure if thats true, but just pointing it out. Come to think of it, I can't ever remember being grabbed out of an ASC against Oli. But Idk.

The way I meant it was, to place yourself properly to pull off an ASC, you'd probably be just in the range of Olimar's grab/dash grab right before you jump, and that can be pretty disadvantageous. Olimar's grab is different from other tether grabs, but I'm not sure it grabs ASC either. In any case, Olimar can just hyphen smash.

Bair works well against Oli, because usmash is so vertical, and you are likely to be hitting with a bair at a diagonal angle.

Still can't abuse it. Also, don't forget that Sonic is slower in the air and usmash comes out pretty fast. It's a good chance you could get hit with it, unless you're using the front of Sonic's body during the bair (Another good move I forgot to mention).

But those are my only irks. You are right that it still isnt easy to get close enough, like you alluded with the jigglypuff marth discussion. Fact is, like I mentioned before, Olimar can beat most of Sonic's approaches, and Sonic becomes quite limited in his approach options. And if you have less options to approach, you tend to become more predictable, making it easier for Oli to counter accordingly. Oh and you're right about Sonics Nair, its extremely quick, nasty, and has a long lasting hitbox.

Can we call it 57:43 olimar? Lolaso.

I still call it 60:40. It definitely isn't complete ****, even though it looks so at first glance. It's just like Sonic on Battlefield, you have to make some temporary fixes in your playstyle to be effective.

 

[Tenki]

Good question. The way I look at is that without Pikmin throw, Olimar's damage output is decreased heavily. But not using Pikmin throw can be both a blessing and a curse.

First off, Sonic loses an opening to attack an opponent that's still in the process of projectile spamming (save when you're hit by purple Pikmin). So instead of dash attacking during a Pikmin throw for free damage, you're getting spammed with fsmashes and grabs. That leads into the second point, where Olimar's main outlets for killing probably won't be an fsmash or throw. So at the cost of making maybe about two moves go stale, he leaves all his other KO options fresh. So yeah, Sonic's avoided racking up damage faster than normal, but in the process he's still running into a brick wall and negating Pikmin throw has only barely made a difference.



{1} The way I meant it was, to place yourself properly to pull off an ASC, you'd probably be just in the range of Olimar's grab/dash grab right before you jump, and that can be pretty disadvantageous. Olimar's grab is different from other tether grabs, but I'm not sure it grabs ASC either. In any case, Olimar can just hyphen smash.



Still can't abuse it. Also, don't forget that Sonic is slower in the air and usmash comes out pretty fast. It's a good chance you could get hit with it, unless you're using the front of Sonic's body during the bair (Another good move I forgot to mention).



I still call it 60:40. It definitely isn't complete ****, even though it looks so at first glance. It's just like Sonic on Battlefield, you have to make some temporary fixes in your playstyle to be effective.

That post was beautiful. lol.

{1} if you do a SH ASC so you start the charge as you're rising, and hold downwards, you can do the hadoken QCF and release the ASC just at the top of your SH to do a semi-rising forward ASC, which can go half of FD from your jump point(assuming you're moving forward as you're charging), I think. What about FH ASC?

lmao acronyms.

 

[Umby]

FH? I'd say that'd get you dodgeroll -> dsmash/fsmashed. Idk, it depends. I suppose if you fucked around with it for a while, you could call his dodge roll and JC out of your ASC into a Homing Attack. I mean, I emphasize mixing things up more than the average person, but even I don't like to rely on situational things that often.

 

[Tenki]

FH? I'd say that'd get you dodgeroll -> dsmash/fsmashed. Idk, it depends. I suppose if you fucked around with it for a while, you could call his dodge roll and JC out of your ASC into a Homing Attack. I mean, I emphasize mixing things up more than the average person, but even I don't like to rely on situational things that often.

There you go :D

As long as there's the option to get around it, it's good.

but yeah, you can JC or shield>spotdodge.

 

[R4ZE]

So, in your opinion, you can only be good at smash if you main sonic, or are you trying to say that only good people can only joke that their character has an advantage?
I'm confused, because I know plenty of good people who don't main sonic AND believe that their character has an advantage over him. With your logic, they must suck a whole lot.


~Fino

uh... that just proves my point.. nearly 95% of smashers play high tier characters, think they r the ****, and think sonic sucks... and thats because knowing how to use sonic isnt easy.

And i mean, there are a lot of playeers who play high tier and actualy ARE good, and they win tournaments. and they dont come in the sonic boards saying that sonic is a terrible. because THOSE people probobly have seena decent sonic and seen that sonic CAN be good when used correctly.

FH? I'd say that'd get you dodgeroll -> dsmash/fsmashed. Idk, it depends. I suppose if you fucked around with it for a while, you could call his dodge roll and JC out of your ASC into a Homing Attack. I mean, I emphasize mixing things up more than the average person, but even I don't like to rely on situational things that often.

lol... if u guys saw some 1 dodge roll, or hyphen... u could jump cancel ASC. gg.


but really if u execute ASC at the correct height, and close enuff, they wont see it coming bfore they are getting nailed in the face and then grabbed. (ur supposed to use ASC at the same time that oli does somthing like a fsmash, and then by the time he is out of FSMASH lag, ur about half a character space away from him, and what can he do? sheild? then u grab...)


and really the only counter to a low ASC that oli has would be a SH fair, but that only works when ASC has decayed quite a bit.


we should just have a complete hypothetical matchup b/t oli and sonic, that would solve EVERYTHING! xD

 

[ROOOOY!]

Guys guys, why are we arguing all these match-ups? We can throw all the acronyms and valid arguments at people possible but obviously Sonic is at a 0-100 disadvantage against everybody, because other mains can't accept that Sonic can do anything to anyone, ever.
It's pathetic, these boards piss me off no end, and I don't know why I come here to waste my time talking to people who can't comprehend simple facts. I'm not going to refute any points made by non Sonic mains about Sonic (because they OBVIOUSLY know our character better than we do) because I'm going to be met with blind ignorance. I find myself making the same points every day and it's just getting really tiring.

Umby is right about more or less everything.
Dedede is 40:60.

Olimar is 40:60 at the worst.

 

[Chis]

Who made this into a match up thread? I'm sure we've answered the OP question already...

 

[Umby]

More like 65:35 Dedede.

 

[CaliburChamp]

In my opinion, Olimar is Sonic's hardest match up out of all the other characters. 20:80 in Olimar's favor. Olimar's grab, and fast smash attacks, and ranged moves put a ton of damage on Sonic, he can also grab Sonic out of spin dashes. Sonic needs ranged moves and projectiles to keep up with Olimar. Also Sonic will have a very hard time grabbing an Olimar with his amazingly good defensive moveset, sure Sonic has the speed, but that one attribute isn't enough to say this is not a bad match up when it is Sonic's worst match up.

 

[Chis]

In my opinion, Olimar is Sonic's hardest match up out of all the other characters. 20:80 in Olimar's favor. Olimar's grab, and fast smash attacks, and ranged moves put a ton of damage on Sonic, he can also grab Sonic out of spin dashes. Sonic needs ranged moves and projectiles to keep up with Olimar. Also Sonic will have a very hard time grabbing an Olimar with his amazingly good defensive moveset, sure Sonic has the speed, but that one attribute isn't enough to say this is not a bad match up when it is Sonic's worst match up.

You can't be serious.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Seconded. NO match-up is 20:80 against Sonic. NONE.
For me, 20:80 against is only merited if they're like infinite death grabbed ala Ness/Luigi/whatever.
I don't think Luigi's even a hard counter btw. Never really thought he was before, apart from like then first time I played them.
I think the only three who hard counter Sonic are Gaymenwatch, Wario and Metaknight. Maybe I just haven't played against G&W enough, but I find him really hard.

And I requested a lock for this thread ages ago. Why do mods come in and close legitimate threads and leave ones like these? It's ridiculous. We NEED a mod for Sonic boards.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lets ignore the troll.

Against Olimar its best to take advantage of some of his weaknesses.
His pikmin have no priority, except for a few moves your attacks will knock away pikmin each time.

of course this does not work against smashes and grabs but otherwise, your moves are greater in terms of priority.

You also have to take advantage of what blind spots he has.
using the bair (which is good for this match up) you can get at him diagonally and be more safe.

Baiscally act like a Peach and take advantage of his grounded behavior.
Don't try to get into a grab match or smash match, you'll lose both.

Also do not float in mid range or close range since Olimar can pressure you into approaching and force sloppy behavior.

Also use your spring grounded when he spawns to rpevent him from gaining any pikmin.

 

[ShadowLink84]

gay comp is gay

 

[CaliburChamp]

You can't be serious.

Seconded. NO match-up is 20:80 against Sonic. NONE.
For me, 20:80 against is only merited if they're like infinite death grabbed ala Ness/Luigi/whatever.
I don't think Luigi's even a hard counter btw. Never really thought he was before, apart from like then first time I played them.
I think the only three who hard counter Sonic are Gaymenwatch, Wario and Metaknight. Maybe I just haven't played against G&W enough, but I find him really hard.

And I requested a lock for this thread ages ago. Why do mods come in and close legitimate threads and leave ones like these? It's ridiculous. We NEED a mod for Sonic boards.

Lets ignore the troll.

Against Olimar its best to take advantage of some of his weaknesses.
His pikmin have no priority, except for a few moves your attacks will knock away pikmin each time.

of course this does not work against smashes and grabs but otherwise, your moves are greater in terms of priority.

You also have to take advantage of what blind spots he has.
using the bair (which is good for this match up) you can get at him diagonally and be more safe.

Baiscally act like a Peach and take advantage of his grounded behavior.
Don't try to get into a grab match or smash match, you'll lose both.

Also do not float in mid range or close range since Olimar can pressure you into approaching and force sloppy behavior.

Also use your spring grounded when he spawns to rpevent him from gaining any pikmin.

I explained my reasons. It might be a better ratio than 20:80. But I'm sure Olimar has the advantage on Sonic. Play a good Olimar using Sonic, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Tenki]

I have seen it. D;

Jumpy is the way to go in this match.

 

[aeghrur]

I explained my reasons. It might be a better ratio than 20:80. But I'm sure Olimar has the advantage on Sonic. Play a good Olimar using Sonic, you'll see what I mean.

Your definitely right on olimar having the advantage, but your way off on the 20:80 thing. That much is reserved for Metaknight, Wario, Game&watch, and maybe Luigi(possibly).

 

[Napilopez]

I personally agree that Oli is Sonic's hardest matchup, athlough 80:20 is pushing it alot. But anyways, that's just against my Sonic. Clearly many of you don't have the same issue.

Umby, I see now what you meant about the pikmin throw, and after reading your argument, I wholeheartedly agree.

But since this will hopefully get locked anyways since Ro0o0o0yototottotttyy!!! reported it, Imma get a bit back into the D3 discussion. Cuz I'm bored.
You brought up alot of valid points in a clear and logical argument for Dedede, but I feel like you missed some of Sonic's other strengths in this matchup. Spincharge, Spindash, and ASC, combos work much too well on D3. Sonic can damage him extremely easy, so I while it will take higher percentages to kill Dedede, you should be able to reach this high percentage more quickly.

I also disagree with your point about them offstage. I personally believe Dedede's offstage game is hampered by Sonic, while Sonic's is augmented by Dedede, to the point where they are almost equal.

Sonic grabs aren't almost completely out of the question. Sonic is quick. This counteracts Dedede's low vulnerability frames. Not to mention that Sonic has several ways to get inside Dedede's defenses in order to grab him. It all balances out.

Range wise, I think you are incorrect. If I am not myself mistaken, the only attack D3 has that completely outranges Sonic is his ftilt. And his grab, lol. Otherwise, on a move per move basis, Sonics ground moves are about equal in reach to D3s, or if they are not, they come out quicker. Aerial wise, overall Sonic's aerials will trade hits. Dedede Uair will kill your dair, but your Uair will kill his Dair.

I and this is all just on paper facts(except for the disagreement offstage). I cant see this being any worse that 55:45 in D3s Favor. Maybe perhaps 60:40, but by no means 65:35. Id call Olimar 65:35 anytime before calling D3 such.

Booo match-ups, lol.

So can someone summarize what Sonic main should do versus olimar? This is honestly the only character I'd ever consider calling a hard counter for Sonic ='(.

So far, from Tenki, we have "Jump."

w00t! lollz, although he is right.

 

[MarKO X]

Dsmash & Usmash kills leeched pikmin, but if Olimar realizes this, he might capitalize on ur lag, so be careful w/that.

Onstage: Follow Tenki's advice and jump. Of course, don't jumping jack (jump predictably), but fight this one in the air.

Offstage: Gimp. Gimp. Gimp. Sweetspot dair works too well on Olimar.

Note: Olimars can't really take advantage of attacking you from a new stock with invincibility frames because they have to get pikmin. That could help...

 

[ShadowLink84]

I explained my reasons. It might be a better ratio than 20:80. But I'm sure Olimar has the advantage on Sonic. Play a good Olimar using Sonic, you'll see what I mean.

I have and its 50:50. (and I play alot of Olimars)

Olimar has a number of spots where he just cannot reach you hence why you should use Bair often as well as Nair.

Also because of the priooperties to Sonic's attacks he kills off pikmin. it is also hard to juggle Sonic into a combo ecbause like marth, if he is not in hitstun at least 1 frame he can escape from the next hit.

Olimar is very strong but the key is to not rush things. Olimar isn't going anywhere he doesn't need to, so why are you going to go crazy trying to rush him./

play him like you do a Marth. As long as you know what he can do and how, you'll know how to take advantage and how to react.
By no means is Olimar a hard matchup for Sonic.
I think Dangr would agree (grudgingly).

But by no means is Olimar a hard matchup for Sonic.

Wolf is more difficult IMO.

 

[Tenki]

It's just a matter of adapting your playstyle.

And since I suck at aerial playstyles, I generally suck vs Olimar.

But kind of like IC's, you have to play while avoiding getting grabbed. Consciously. At every moment.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Against Wolf all you need to learn to do is powershield and punish lol. Same against Luigi actually, it helps massively.
Wolf boards have the match-up as 50:50, and I'm inclined to agree.

 

[da K.I.D.]

check it out i just had a fantastic idea

you know how roy said that we should admit that sonic goes 0 out of 100 with everyone...

whenever we are in a match up thread, we just agree with whatever the other people say, and maybe even make it sound worse than it is. if they say we are at a 60-40 disadvantage we bump it to 70-30
no matchup he has is ever better than 70-30 and when we talk about advantages, the only thing we should say is that his speed allows him to do a 0-steak combo. example
"and than even though he can take him from 0-steak, he still cant kill anything to save his life. 70-30 toon links advantage"

its brilliant

EDIT:
all sonic mainers, post this in your sig.

None of Sonic's matchups are any better than 70-30 their advantage. And when if we talk about advantages, the only thing we know, is that Sonic's speed allows him to do a 0-steak combo. Example: Even though he can take him from 0-steak, he still cant kill anything to save his life. 70-30 Toon Link's advantage

 

[Napilopez]

check it out i just had a fantastic idea

you know how roy said that we should admit that sonic goes 0 out of 100 with everyone...

whenever we are in a match up thread, we just agree with whatever the other people say, and maybe even make it sound worse than it is. if they say we are at a 60-40 disadvantage we bump it to 70-30
no matchup he has is ever better than 70-30 and when we talk about advantages, the only thing we should say is that his speed allows him to do a 0-steak combo. example
"and than even though he can take him from 0-steak, he still cant kill anything to save his life. 70-30 toon links advantage"

its brilliant

I lolled .

 

[Excellence]

Aside from the 3 people i know have a advantage vs Sonic (Pikachu, Falco, and Luigi), I also have problems when i fight Olimar. any tips in this matchup

Seriously, I just would not use Olimar against him. If you do insist on using Sonic against him, for those who are solo mains, you should try never to approach from the ground and keep him juggled. It's about the only thing that works. If you do hit him, get outside of his FSmash range and you can work from there.

 

[Tenki]

Seriously, I just would not use Olimar against him. If you do insist on using Sonic against him, for those who are solo mains, you should try never to approach from the ground and keep him juggled. It's about the only thing that works. If you do hit him, get outside of his FSmash range and you can work from there.

By Olimar, he means Sonic.

Unfortunately, it doesn't go the other way around.

either way, this post just continues to reinforce the "Jump" idea.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol at the sig, but id like to make some changes to make it authentic, cus im serious about this idea
1. K.I.D. is all capitals please.
2. change "the only thing we should say", to "the only thing we know"