Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[GHNeko]

I say test out iSpin's bair. Him and DS are like the only ones messing around with stats. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

If you guys want to test out the Bair you need to modify the first line of the speed mod data code. Count the amount of lines minus the first line, multiply it by 8, then convert to hex. Whatever that number is should be at the end of the first line.

As long as Usmash sets up for techchase it should be good. Also I was thinking that maybe more then just the last hit could have the spike. Just in case, maybe even speed up the move's hitboxes altogether and have it spike on all the hitboxes, since the potential follow-up for the techchase would be worth way more then the damage of Usmash itself. This way we wouldn't have to worry about making each hit link better making the move worthless with DI, though I always felt hitting with it just the right way still spiked anyways.

Either way, I'm glad people are tinkering. I just don't think Bair or Nair will honestly help the character too much. Its too bad that homing attack spike never worked. T.T

 

[iSpiN]

I say test out iSpin's bair. Him and DS are like the only ones messing around with stats. :V

Listen to him.

I'm arguing for Sonic's upsmash spike to be put back in. It should have more ending lag than we had originally (what was I thinking? Jab resets on missed techs?!?! Bad idea)

The Sonic mains no longer care for Brawl+ as I see it. But why more ending lag? It seems fine as is to me.

 

[GHNeko]

You want to fix sonic, yea. Start tinkering. I suggest, iSpin, Blank, and Dark Sonic get together and start figuring out things. :V

In private.

 

[iSpiN]

I'm willing to do w/e needs to be done.

Also, if I haven't made myself clear I am okay with the Usmash being back in.

 

[yami_sora]

I think that considering Sonic made a gigantic leap in the newest tier list there will be a lot of people curious to find out exactly why, and a lot of people might start trying Sonic out. As a Sonic main I think he's too high on the vBrawl tier list, but I'd like to see him in the top 10 of B+. From what I've played so far I think it's possible. His smashes are still too weak to kill with reliably though. His ariels are improved so he's mostly an edge guarding character but I think that would start to get really predictable and you'd run into trouble. I think you've made great strides in improving Sonic's game, but I still feel like more has to be done to his ground game as well. There isn't a way to increase damage/knockback on his side/down b's based on time charged is there? Also I would enjoy having back the usmash spike.

 

[iSpiN]

Sonic IS too high on the Brawl list. He should have went up half of what he did go up.

..and no, you can't up damage based on how much you charge for SpinDash/SpinCharge.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sonic is a really bad character in Brawl. He just has a lot of gifted players playing him, and his metagame advanced stupidly fast for such a low tier character.

Either way, I need to test out the -2 frame bair tomorrow. Can't play tonight.

I also support the usmash spike, if that's worth anything.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You want to fix sonic, yea. Start tinkering. I suggest, iSpin, Blank, and Dark Sonic get together and start figuring out things. :V

In private.

This sounds like a very ideal threesome and has piqued my arousal. I believe we could easily (re)produce an intense character.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sonic seems like one of the few characters that would benefit from a closed development rather than a community development. Too many people have too many ideas on how he should be played.

If we were going to do such a closed development, I've no objections to those three developing him. Seems like a good trio of opinions.

 

[Blank Mauser]

No way, you can't include me in the trio. I'll only give stupid ideas like making Sonic's grounded spring only disappear on next use. :S

Spoiler

Thats an amazing idea btw.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

No way, you can't include me in the trio. I'll only give stupid ideas like making Sonic's grounded spring only disappear on next use. :S

Spoiler

Thats an amazing idea btw.

This being another reason that I agree on this trio.

Spoiler

That idea is frickin' awesome.

 

[Blank Mauser]

This being another reason that I agree on this trio.

Spoiler

That idea is frickin' awesome.

Oh no, you should've heard my real idea. Making it a throwable item.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Broken.

Spoiler

But again, f*cking awesome.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Obviously my ideas are horrible. All I've managed to do is make Tatsuman censor bypass.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Truly... we are in good hands, gentlemen.

 

[iSpiN]

Whats funny is that me and the Sonic mains came up with that idea few months ago as well. ..But we weren't thinking about making it throw able. O_o

 

[yami_sora]

As long as Sonic is fast and kicks *** I really don't care what you do to him. Few things are more satisfying than taking a huge lead over your opponent and then making Sonic say "Come on! Step it up!" It's just too bad Sonic is so bad that you rarely get the chance to do that. If you can't increase the power of Sonic's B moves like that maybe it would be best to just focus more in his air game, like increasing the hitbox and power of his nair.

 

[iSpiN]

We increased the power of the Nair already. I thought that buffing the hitbox would also be beneficial, but I others will disagree.

Also, if you want to taunt, use his Up Taunt or Down Taunt. Ironically, you're too slow has the most frames.

If you guys want to test out the Bair you need to modify the first line of the speed mod data code. Count the amount of lines minus the first line, multiply it by 8, then convert to hex. Whatever that number is should be at the end of the first line.

I've always just replaced two lines with the Bair code.

Edit:

@iSpin: About Sonic's Bair, why not make it end sooner? Like DK's?

Because Sonic can land the Bair and have followups. Making the end sooner would be pointless when you could just land it onstage anyways. Offstage you don't have to worry about that as much cause you're a beast offstage anyways. And DK's comes out on frame 7.

 

[yami_sora]

Why do people disagree about buffing the hitbox of his nair? Is there some problem with it or do people just find it broken? Also, is there anything you can do with Sonic's usmash? I'm not asking you to buff it or anything I'm just asking gameplay wise I haven't found too many good uses for it as of right now in B+.

 

[GHNeko]

Why do people disagree about buffing the hitbox of his nair? Is there some problem with it or do people just find it broken? Also, is there anything you can do with Sonic's usmash? I'm not asking you to buff it or anything I'm just asking gameplay wise I haven't found too many good uses for it as of right now in B+.

IIRC, Dark, Blank, and iSpin want Usmash to spike again. :V

Also, have you guys ever though of having Usmash spike at a 25-30 degree angle on the final hitbox? And have all the hitboxes carry the opponent around his usmash for it always finish infront of sonic?

That would be awesome imo, because you could DAC or Hyphen Smash and have the momentum/lack of friction carry you to the ledge and it would spike off the ledge.

Weaken the growth, and make it a meteor, so the spike wouldnt negate average WITH edgehoging recoveries until 90%+ percent. Having it spike infront of him would set up for tech chases better than the old Usmash spike. Stutter step fsmash would take care of rolls behind sonic, and rolls forward can be easily tech chased with sonic's pure speed and short init dash. Dsmash can own get ups too.

Usmash spikes off the ledge prior to 90% can lead to stage spike follow ups and/or spring gimps.

Give usmash a resonable amount of lag and ideal KB and the idea is balanced and golden.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Why do people disagree about buffing the hitbox of his nair? Is there some problem with it or do people just find it broken? Also, is there anything you can do with Sonic's usmash? I'm not asking you to buff it or anything I'm just asking gameplay wise I haven't found too many good uses for it as of right now in B+.

Well its just that his Uair already can serve a similar purpose, having nair could just negate that. I'm not outright against it yet though, but having it have be better in kill power would definitely fit better with his Usmash spike. That way he could techchase with it pretty safely.

Me and Dark Sonic will talk about the Usmash spike, but im not sure we want it to really be used as a literal spike off the stage, just a techchase setup. Having it spike off the stage would most likely only be due to bad DI.

 

[yami_sora]

I see, I guess that would be fair. So usmash excluded are there any other plans to improve his ground game or are most of his kills gonna be by the air through edge guards and things like that?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I see, I guess that would be fair. So usmash excluded are there any other plans to improve his ground game or are most of his kills gonna be by the air through edge guards and things like that?

Besides techchase nair, a speedup to bair may be considered. Not sure, haven't talked to Dark Sonic much on this yet.

 

[GHNeko]

Have usmash suck into sonic and send straight down on the last hitbox. :V

 

[yami_sora]

Well as I said as a Sonic main and fan I would love to see him viable in this game. Sure he's been improved tremendously but I mean so has most of the cast, and despite what the current tier list says I really doubt he's mid-tier, he should probably be 3 or 4 spots lower, but that's just my opinion. But it would be great to see him in at least high tier in B+ and with all the hard work you guys are putting into it I definitely see it being a possibility.

In regards to speeding up the bair, do you mean the beginning frames or the ending frames, like is it a speed up on windup or cool down?

 

[GHNeko]

Same cool down, but the move ends 2 frames sooner.

 

[yami_sora]

Would that improve the follow up? It doesn't seem that bad to begin with, but I guess I'd have to see the different to pass judgment on it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Having 2 frames less of startup would make it easier to land on opponents (and easier to combo into). Windown wouldn't really do anything since you're hitting them too far to follow (unless you're close to the ground in which case you'd be landing during the bair anyway.)

For his ground game I'd possibly want to look into making ALL of his d-tilt pop them up (including the tip), or maybe giving f-tilt more BKB or something (make it push shields farther to make it just a little bit safer). What I REALLY want to do is make ASC have a bigger hitbox (and by bigger I mean, sex kick big), or make the turn around of SDR be jump cancelable (or shield cancelable). It'd be cool to play more into Sonic's cancel game.

ASC could also have less startup lag as an alternative to a bigger hitbox (bigger hitbox would be more benefitial of course). Plenty of ideas, but not sure how many would get in/be feasible.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Same cool down, but the move ends 2 frames sooner.

Actually, the speedup would be at the start.

I think the Dtilt could end a little sooner, to be one of his best combo setups as floaties seem to just nair out of all my follow-ups to it.

I honestly can't see a faster Bair helping much in terms of combos. It being slightly faster wouldn't really help much in terms of reliable kill power either, but if there was one aerial that deserved a speed-up I would say its Bair.

ASC having a bigger hitbox would be neat, momentum could give it some potential uses. Plus if we did the idea of the spring setup staying out you could spindash way off the stage. :D

 

[yami_sora]

I'm all for buffing the ASC myself and would love to delve a bit more into Sonic's cancel game. The mindgames you could pull with that would be a huge boost for Sonic.

 

[iSpiN]

Oh god, so much has happened since I went to work. Guess I'll hit all the posts.

IIRC, Dark, Blank, and iSpin want Usmash to spike again. :V

Also, have you guys ever though of having Usmash spike at a 25-30 degree angle on the final hitbox? And have all the hitboxes carry the opponent around his usmash for it always finish infront of sonic?

That would be awesome imo, because you could DAC or Hyphen Smash and have the momentum/lack of friction carry you to the ledge and it would spike off the ledge.

Weaken the growth, and make it a meteor, so the spike wouldnt negate average WITH edgehoging recoveries until 90%+ percent. Having it spike infront of him would set up for tech chases better than the old Usmash spike. Stutter step fsmash would take care of rolls behind sonic, and rolls forward can be easily tech chased with sonic's pure speed and short init dash. Dsmash can own get ups too.

Usmash spikes off the ledge prior to 90% can lead to stage spike follow ups and/or spring gimps.

Give usmash a resonable amount of lag and ideal KB and the idea is balanced and golden.

I've been saying to put it in front of Sonic all this time. Neko likes to take words out of my mouth apparently. I've been wanting to edit the direction it sends for a while now, I hope we can test this idea of yours.

Well its just that his Uair already can serve a similar purpose, having nair could just negate that. I'm not outright against it yet though, but having it have be better in kill power would definitely fit better with his Usmash spike. That way he could techchase with it pretty safely.

I've considered weakening Nair and buffing the hitbox so it can be used as a landing move that has very good followups. And when I say weakening I mean the KB but keep the damage. Food for thought.

Me and Dark Sonic will talk about the Usmash spike

No threesome after all?

but im not sure we want it to really be used as a literal spike off the stage, just a techchase setup. Having it spike off the stage would most likely only be due to bad DI.

But you wanted to have homing attack to spike? I'm guessing by HA's properties the HA would miss to a recovering opponent so it would even out? I'm just wondering where the thought process was when we were considering making a HA spike, but when we discuss a Usmash spike we don't want it to be used as a kill move cause I think I missed that train completely.

Same cool down, but the move ends starts 2 frames sooner.

Fixed

What I REALLY want to do is make ASC have a bigger hitbox (and by bigger I mean, sex kick big), or make the turn around of SDR be jump cancel able (or shield cancel able). It'd be cool to play more into Sonic's cancel game.

ASC could also have less startup lag as an alternative to a bigger hitbox (bigger hitbox would be more beneficial of course). Plenty of ideas, but not sure how many would get in/be feasible.

Intriguing idea there Dark Sonic. By ASC for those who do not know is just an Aerial Spin Charge or A1 Steak Charge. So I doubt we can just up the properties of this move for only in the air so we would also be buffing the hitbox for Spin Charge on the ground as well. Either way, DownB isn't that great of a move and a larger hitbox will be a great benefit. I don't know how I didn't think of it first when I heard we can edit hitboxes *shakes fist*.

As for the cancel tricksies, I suppose if its possible then go ahead, but I'm lacking the imagination to see how it can be done.

I think the Dtilt could end a little sooner, to be one of his best combo setups as floaties seem to just nair out of all my follow-ups to it.

Debatable, elaborate more for us why 6 (iirc) frames is 2 slow.

I honestly can't see a faster Bair helping much in terms of combos. It being slightly faster wouldn't really help much in terms of reliable kill power either, but if there was one aerial that deserved a speed-up I would say its Bair.

Look inside your heart and you will find the answer.

 

[yami_sora]

With you 3 behind the helm I can tell that Sonic is in good hands. Also a question about leaving the spring out from a little while back, how exactly would that benefit Sonic's game?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I've considered weakening Nair and buffing the hitbox so it can be used as a landing move that has very good followups. And when I say weakening I mean the KB but keep the damage. Food for thought.

Depends, we may have to change the KBG and angle for follow-ups. I'm not sure changing its hitbox without a graphic would be wise. How big were you thinking of a change? I think if we buffed its kill power a little more so its a viable techchaser would be good, since Dsmash isn't looking too great of one right now. Also, ASC seems to be a candidate for hitbox increase so just think about that too.

But you wanted to have homing attack to spike? I'm guessing by HA's properties the HA would miss to a recovering opponent so it would even out? I'm just wondering where the thought process was when we were considering making a HA spike, but when we discuss a Usmash spike we don't want it to be used as a kill move cause I think I missed that train completely.

Homing attack is even more useless then Usmash. Anyways me and Dark_Sonic toyed with the idea of a pillaring Sonic long ago. Homing attack wouldn't just spike, it would be faster. Its uses would extend to more then just off-stage, it would setup for plenty of things on-stage too and maybe even be combo'd into. It was a completely radical idea that never was implemented because Homing attack can't be modified that way.

I'm just not sure about the Usmash really being an edgeguard or kill in that way. Maybe you and Dark_Sonic can talk about this one. If its not well-recieved by others I would really just be happy with the techchase.

Intriguing idea there Dark Sonic. By ASC for those who do not know is just an Aerial Spin Charge or A1 Steak Charge. So I doubt we can just up the properties of this move for only in the air so we would also be buffing the hitbox for Spin Charge on the ground as well. Either way, DownB isn't that great of a move and a larger hitbox will be a great benefit. I don't know how I didn't think of it first when I heard we can edit hitboxes *shakes fist*.

Would this change the Down-B Spinshot and Spinjump hitboxes as well? I always wished they could get more use, canonball attack lol.

Debatable, elaborate more for us why 6 (iirc) frames is 2 slow.

6 frames for the whole move, or just for the hitbox to come out? I'm talking its endlag not the entirety of the move. Just so it has follow-ups on floaties.

Also, how about 4 frames shaved off of Bair startup? That would be the amount of time it takes for Metaknights Dsmash to come out, pretty good?

With you 3 behind the helm I can tell that Sonic is in good hands. Also a question about leaving the spring out from a little while back, how exactly would that benefit Sonic's game?

It could be a useful trap or setup, even though the opponent can react to it right away its still sets them up in a good position for an uair kill. Not only that, but having it always be there gives him more options for say, double spring jumps, or some insanely far edgeguarding. Spindashing or dairing twice off-stage and living for example. Im sure there are more applications, they just come into play with practice.

 

[Cytrs]

Hope y'all put the bair buff in. it would be filthy.

could nair's kb be nerfed (maybe a bigger hitbox for more priority, but i dont think it really needs the hitbox if you do the kb. not to say i wouldn't be happy) so that nair--->bair could be a staple way of killing? id love it.

edit: unless bair would have less startup then nair (didnt look up frame data). then i wouldn't care.

 

[iSpiN]

Depends, we may have to change the KBG and angle for follow-ups. I'm not sure changing its hitbox without a graphic would be wise.

How come?

How big were you thinking of a change?

Ball Parking 15-25% Larger

I think if we buffed its kill power a little more so its a viable techchaser would be good, since Dsmash isn't looking too great of one right now. Also, ASC seems to be a candidate for hitbox increase so just think about that too.

This works too and I will keep that in mind.

Homing attack is even more useless then Usmash. Anyways me and Dark_Sonic toyed with the idea of a pillaring Sonic long ago. Homing attack wouldn't just spike, it would be faster. Its uses would extend to more then just off-stage, it would setup for plenty of things on-stage too and maybe even be combo'd into. It was a completely radical idea that never was implemented because Homing attack can't be modified that way.

I see, while we are on topic about HA, can we buff the damage? It does 8% iirc.

I'm just not sure about the Usmash really being an edgeguard or kill in that way. Maybe you and Dark_Sonic can talk about this one. If its not well-recieved by others I would really just be happy with the techchase.

How about we implement Neko's idea and just make it a meteor? I assume you are saying we can't have both?

Would this change the Down-B Spinshot and Spinjump hitboxes as well? I always wished they could get more use, canonball attack lol.

I would assume so, but we would have to test it to see. I'm not sure if those moves are regarded as SpinCharge or as a whole different move. I would assume it was indeed the same move.

6 frames for the whole move, or just for the hitbox to come out? I'm talking its endlag not the entirety of the move. Just so it has follow-ups on floaties.

I was referring to startup, sorry. I do not have the rest of the frame data due to its being worked on for the Sonic boards. We have two different guides and Dtilt is only done for one of them. I'll post more for later.

Also, how about 4 frames shaved off of Bair startup? That would be the amount of time it takes for Metaknights Dsmash to come out, pretty good?

I was saying 2-5 and shanus gave me -2 frames. I assumed he would not go above that but if a 9 frame Bair isn't asking to much then by all means do it.


Also for the sake of this thread and on topic of Nair I will quote from the Sonic boards:

NAIR

It is not that disjointed at all lol. Its just because Sonic doesnt spin on a stationary axis, the axis rotates the same way hes spinning. Imagine a CD rotating about a tiny point located inside the inner circle. The range you can see here only exists in 1 direction at any given point of the attacks while the remainder of the hitbox is more or less directly attached to Sonic's body. He spins about this smaller axis about 2 times in a single nair.

 

[Blank Mauser]

How about we implement Neko's idea and just make it a meteor? I assume you are saying we can't have both?

No, having the spike would give us both. I'm just not sure whether its really necessary. I think the meteor idea is fine though considering it only leaves them in a bad position, but not so sure how much DI will affect this idea.

How come?

At one point in time we considered making it like the insta-shield from Sonic 3, which would be a pretty big hitbox to leave without a graphic to see lol.

 

[iSpiN]

Ok, I fixed my messy text.

No, having the spike would give us both. I'm just not sure whether its really necessary. I think the meteor idea is fine though considering it only leaves them in a bad position, but not so sure how much DI will affect this idea.

Thats why we have nightly builds isn't it?

At one point in time we considered making it like the insta-shield from Sonic 3, which would be a pretty big hitbox to leave without a graphic to see lol.

Oh I see...So no Snakifying Sonic.

Also, I have my said too high by saying 15-25%. 10% would probably be enough.

 

[GHNeko]

Actually, giving nair invincibility on certain frames would be better than a move with KB like Snake's nair.

At least in terms of versatility.

 

[iSpiN]

Actually, giving nair invincibility on certain frames would be better than a move with KB like Snake's nair.

At least in terms of versatility.

Me and a few other Sonic mains had the invincibility frame idea a while back, but that was swatted down due to it being too good.